Creation

[Thunduhbuhlt]

How do you think that the Earth was created? How were we created?
This is a thread where you can go as far back as you want, all the way to theories of evolution or the big bang, or religion all you want.

I will start:

I believe that God created the earth and all things on it.

[Stryker125]

Same. God.

[Buranri]

Science > religion.

[Amnesiac]

Logically, the Big Bang Theory is the most reasonable explanation. However, nobody here can claim to know the definite answer to what "started" the Universe (if it even did "start"). A definite answer to the question of origin will never be found, and it's best to accept that fact and move on, rather than make up excuses for how everything came to be.

[Skeptical Bear]

There's no evidence on what could have started it but I believe it might have not been the big bang. I could be wrong but I think that something else might have started it.

[BFG9001]

God is Santa Claus for grown ups.

[Mortal Coil]

While the Big Bang theory is my preferred theory, neither can be proven or disproven. Also, all of the anti-creationism sticklers have forgotten one crucial detail: a day is measured as the amount of time it takes the earth to revolve 360 degrees around its axis. Since the earth was not necessarily rotating at the same speed when it was supposedly "created" as it is now, the idea that it could not be created in the amount of time that is six days now is irrelevant.
Just throwing that out there.

[User Deleted]

I don't believe in god or the big bang theory. In everything, more than we can comprehend all of time and space, do you really think we would get that right in two guesses? An infinite number of possibilities to match an infinite universe. Many would be logically implausible others we simply haven't found. I have personally found god to fall into the category of logically implausible and the big bang theory to be possible, yet I'm convinced one day a better theory will arise if that hasn't already happened.

[Jess]

More likely the Big Bang than "God"...but honestly I don't really know how. But I firmly believe that it was NOT created by some god.

[Jupiter]

i'm a christian, so i believe god made the earth.



I believe that God created the earth and all things on it.

i don't believe that, though. i believe that god created everything that was there in the beginning, and one by one, things started changing. this would be called evolution. in a sense.

[BOSS]

God of course.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

i'm a christian, so i believe god made the earth.



i don't believe that, though. i believe that god created everything that was there in the beginning, and one by one, things started changing. this would be called evolution. in a sense.

Well I am not a believer in evolution, especially not with humans.
It is possible for other animals I guess though.

[Genghis Khan]

Well I am not a believer in evolution, especially not with humans.
It is possible for other animals I guess though.

Why is not possible for humans?

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Why is not possible for humans?
Because (assuming you understand and have some knowledge of the Bible) according to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve, the first humans.

[Genghis Khan]

Because (assuming you understand and have some knowledge of the Bible) according to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve, the first humans.

oh right yeah the bible that great and accurate book my bad

[Thunduhbuhlt]

oh right yeah the bible that great and accurate book my bad

Assuming that was sarcasm, it is just what I believe and how I was raised. I have had many religious experiences that have truly made me believe even more. Many a prayer have been answered for me and I am lucky to have a God that is so good to me.

I know someone will be all mad at this, but I am not changing for anyone, and definitely not going away from my God.

[Genghis Khan]

I know someone will be all mad at this, but I am not changing for anyone, and definitely not going away from my God.

Then why even debate? If you're so fixated on your stance then there's probably not much point participating in debates where people can argue and converse over a selected topic with an open mind. To start threads concerning a topic that is personal to you and then use justifications like eyewitness testimony and conclude it there by saying 'I'm not changing my stance anyway' is extremely irrealistic.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Then why even debate? If you're so fixated on your stance then there's probably not much point participating in debates where people can argue and converse over a selected topic with an open mind. To start threads concerning a topic that is personal to you and then use justifications like eyewitness testimony and conclude it there by saying 'I'm not changing my stance anyway' is extremely irrealistic.

I originally didn't plan to get involved, this was meant to be for people in a different thread that were discussing a similar thing to this.

But i had to get involved. And you're right, I probably shouldn't have. :)

[Wicked_Syn]

Well I am not a believer in evolution, especially not with humans.
It is possible for other animals I guess though.

You're a quack. If any ORGANISM can evolve over time, then OBVIOUSLY a human being can evolve. Give me a reason as to why a human can't or has not evolved over time.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

You're a quack. If any ORGANISM can evolve over time, then OBVIOUSLY a human being can evolve. Give me a reason as to why a human can't or has not evolved over time.

Because I, don't believe so. In my beliefs, God created the first humans, Adam and Eve, when he created the earth.

But that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

[Jess]

it's called debating

where do prehistoric humans come in? They existed.

[TeddyBearRock]

i know, i just making what i said clearer

[Electra Heart]

I personally believe that God made the big bang theory, evolution, etc. Although, I always have my doubts...

[Thunduhbuhlt]

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1657909&postcount=18

This.

I have already stated on involvement and debate...

[Jess]

doesn't the Bible say the Earth is 6,500 years old?

That's completely wrong. The Earth is billions of years old.

[Wicked_Syn]

Because I, don't believe so. In my beliefs, God created the first humans, Adam and Eve, when he created the earth.

But that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

I respect your opinions, but I would like some proof that God created everything. If you can give me a point in the past that proves it, you may be able to change my views on God and religion.

[Electra Heart]

doesn't the Bible say the Earth is 6,500 years old?

That's completely wrong. The Earth is billions of years old.

I know what you mean, I'm Christian, but I can admit that MUCH of the bible is completely false.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

I respect your opinions, but I would like some proof that God created everything. If you can give me a point in the past that proves it, you may be able to change my views on God and religion.

I can't give you a point on how and why.
It's faith. It's your belief.

I was raised in a semi-Christian home, but I am more Christian then they are.
I have had many of my prayers answered and have gotten so many things that are because of God.

I don't have to have a reason, just faith.

But i totally respect if you don't believe, it's your faith, not mine.

I know what you mean, I'm Christian, but I can admit that MUCH of the bible is completely false.

I agree, I think that the Bible is somewhat wrong. maybe when it was made, it was really only 6,500 years old, but it may be wrong.

[TeddyBearRock]

I know what you mean, I'm Christian, but I can admit that MUCH of the bible is completely false.

alot of the bible is wrong

noahs ark
the creation story
rise of lazerous
the crusifxtion
the end bit that i havent read but the picture if the guy lifed up to heven is wrong

[Thunduhbuhlt]

You are going to have to inform me on these, because I have not yet read the Bible.

[Wicked_Syn]

You are going to have to inform me on these, because I have not yet read the Bible.

Let me get this right......

You're a Christian, and from what I see, pretty into it.

You haven't read the bible

..yet you're standing by all these accusations?

*scratches head*:what:

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Most Christians have not read the Bible themselves, but do listen in church as I do...I have not read it, but know a great deal due to church readings

[Shark98]

I personally believe that God made the big bang theory, evolution, etc. Although, I always have my doubts...

This is what I thought when I heard that
HoqSas2uFKw

But, I believe God made the universe

[Jupiter]

where does the bible say that?

[StoppingTime]

OK, now, even though I'm Jewish, I think you guys are mistaken when it comes to what you're saying about Adam and Eve.

Jess is right, according to the Bible (going on the Old Testament here), the Earth is around 5770+ years old (Now, this also, taken with a grain of salt. It may have been from a certain point, that I don't know. Now, there have been scientific findings that state that it is billions of years old, and I 100% believe that.

Now, with creation.
When the Bible said, ויהי ערב ויהי בוקר, יום אחד– meaning "And there was morning and night and there was Day One".

This does not necessarily mean "day". It could mean thousands of years, or much more, which would let it fit in with the scientific proofs. Also, Adam and Eve may not necessarily have been the first humans, but the first with certain intelligence levels greater then others, etc...

So, if you're going from a religious perspective, don't take it word for word.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

When the Bible said, ויהי ערב ויהי בוקר, יום אחד– meaning "And there was morning and night and there was Day One".

This does not necessarily mean "day". It could mean thousands of years, or much more, which would let it fit in with the scientific proofs. Also, Adam and Eve were the first humans with certain intelligence levels, etc...

So, if you're going from a religious perspective, don't take it word for word.

I agree, Jesus said he would be back "soon", but it has been over 2000 years, so a day could easily mean a matter of hundreds, thousands, or even more years.

They may have at that time, had a different sense of time...

[Jupiter]

I agree, Jesus said he would be back "soon", but it has been over 2000 years, so a day could easily mean a matter of hundreds, thousands, or even more years.

They may have at that time, had a different sense of time...

he also says we'll never know when.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

he also says we'll never know when.

And we won't until it actually happens.

[Electra Heart]

Most Christians have not read the Bible themselves, but do listen in church as I do...I have not read it, but know a great deal due to church readings

If you go to church every Sunday for x amount of years (and payed attention :P), you HAVE read the bible.

[StoppingTime]

I agree, Jesus said he would be back "soon", but it has been over 2000 years, so a day could easily mean a matter of hundreds, thousands, or even more years.


Obviously, I wasn't thinking of it like that, but I guess that would be a Christian example.

I am not offended FYI

[Jupiter]

Obviously, I wasn't thinking of it like that, but I guess that would be a Christian example.

you guise hav 2 member he is a jew and he beleeeves in judiesm. peace.

oh, and, yes. that is a good christian example.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

If you go to church every Sunday for x amount of years (and payed attention :P), you HAVE read the bible.

Well I am only 14, and my family doesn't willingly go to church :(, but I will start once I get my license.

And I agree, it probably would be like reading the Bible.

[notonhereanymore]

Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship with God. Your daily walk with Him is the perfect way to wake up on a glorious day He has chosen to allow to live in.

[Amnesiac]

Christianity is not a religion. It's a relationship with God. Your daily walk with Him is the perfect way to wake up on a glorious day He has chosen to allow to live in.

This is just like all of that "I don't believe in religion, but I believe in Jesus!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY) stuff that popped up on YouTube a few months ago. Christianity is a religion, and your beliefs are religious, no questions asked. Considering the definition of "religion":

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe

there is absolutely no way you can call Christianity "not a religion". Trying to make it into something different, as if it's "beyond religion," simply doesn't work.

As for the thread topic, I see absolutely no reason to believe in creation myth. From a logical standpoint, it is an outdated and unhealthy state of mind – the longer people keep rallying for creationist theories, the longer it'll take for the human race to truly discover the Universe's mysteries. Yes, people certainly have the right to believe whatever they desire, but the spread of rationalism and scientific thinking is something that we as a society should encourage greatly.

[Gaybaby94]

Science > religion.

This. I think creationism and all things religion is bullshit thought up with some High dude on a drug trip.

Edit: (I can't believe I'm doing this)I'm going to argue in favor of religion for a minute, but I was learning about the Scopes trial in which a biology teacher was arrested for teaching evolution which at the time was illegal. But the lawyer fighting for the religious side did mention that the Bible should not be taken literally and that the 7 days to create everything may not have been 7 -24 hour days. They may have had a completely different time scale bac then.

But I favor my former argument that it is all a load of bullshit.

[IAMWILL]

This whole poll and question is completely false in the first place guys. We know exactly how the world was created. Minerals in space attracted by gravity by our Sun which had recently formed condensed to form orbiting objects, which became more spherical as time progressed because of gravity. One day a huge ass planet collided with pre-Earth and that created the moon, as well as added mass to Earth. The Earth is ~ 5 billion years old and was created in that way. Neither God nor the Big Bang created Earth, those things created our single universe, depending on every persons views. This poll should be about existence in general within the limited perspective of our single universe we occupy.

[Korashk]

Because I, don't believe so. In my beliefs, God created the first humans, Adam and Eve, when he created the earth.

But that doesn't mean you have to believe it.
Since you believe this, how do you explain away all of the evidence for evolution?

P.S. If your answer is something along the lines of "I just do", then don't respond. I have nothing more to say to you if that's the case.

[GothicTsukiyomi]

Logically, the Big Bang Theory is the most reasonable explanation. However, nobody here can claim to know the definite answer to what "started" the Universe (if it even did "start"). A definite answer to the question of origin will never be found, and it's best to accept that fact and move on, rather than make up excuses for how everything came to be.
You know I have a common responce for that. God caused the "Big Bang" To happen.

I'm Goth but Ik inside that God is as real as the computer your on. God created the world. Steven Hawkings is an arrogant crippled who over-estimates the ablities of mortals.

Please don't double post, use the edit button - Kaius

[Jess]

where's the proof that GOD created the world?

[GothicTsukiyomi]

where's the proof that GOD created the world?
It's not vague when I say the proof is Everywhere.

"Chance" and "Luck" Can not come together to make the elaborate designs we see in nature. Our body and how it was DESGINGED not evolved from chimps. From dust we were created, and until dust shall we return. Don't untreated bones turn to the dust from which it was created after time? Yes, yes it does. You don’t even have to be a Christian, Muslim or Jew to believe the existence of a "higher power"

[Korashk]

It's not vague when I say the proof is Everywhere.
Yeah, it is.

"Chance" and "Luck" Can not come together to make the elaborate designs we see in nature.
Why not? Disregarding that evolution and the Big Bang, etc. aren't random and don't rely on chance and luck, why can't chance and luck account for everything we see in nature?

Our body and how it was DESGINGED not evolved from chimps.
Common misconception here. We share a common ancestor that was closer related to apes, and there is a ton of REAL evidence that we evolved from these previous lifeforms, as opposed to the utter lack of evidence to the contrary.

Don't untreated bones turn to the dust from which it was created after time? Yes, yes it does.
...So?

You don’t even have to be a Christian, Muslim or Jew to believe the existence of a "higher power"
Well yeah, you could be a member of one of the thousands of other religions. It doesn't make the position any more valid.

[christianteen]

It's possible that science and God go hand in hand.

God could have created evolution as a way for the earth to look after it self.

[deadpie]

I'm not much of the debater I was when I joined this site and all that avant jazz, but I guess I'll still try to post in ROTW from time to time. It just gets old repeating words and stuff. Plus, Rawal does a fine and dandy job himself. He can run all the debates himself. He should have a job doing that; just simply debating with people who have no idea what they're talking about.

i don't believe that, though. i believe that god created everything that was there in the beginning, and one by one, things started changing. this would be called evolution. in a sense.

http://iseeahappyface.com/upload/the-bible-supports-evolution162.jpg

The Bible supporting evolution:

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:11

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Genesis 1:24

Which makes creationists in a way quite hypocritical to disagree with evolution.

------------------------

More likely the Big Bang than "God"

REALLY? You support SCIENCE over the FACT that God made man out of dirt and made a woman out of a rib? ARE YOU INSANE?

:P

------------------------

I know what you mean, I'm Christian, but I can admit that MUCH of the bible is completely false.

Why would you believe in support something knowing most of the Bible is false? Denial? Fear of death? Is there any other reasons because I can't really see many.

-------------------------

You are going to have to inform me on these, because I have not yet read the Bible.

Don't worry dude! That's not a bad thing entirely. I mean, MOST Christians haven't read the Bible. Or at least the ones here in the South that I know of! They'll read part of the new Testament and that is all. Maybe read some other happy doodle passages, but not the book in its entirety.

I recommend that you do. Read all religious texts that you can. Very interesting stuff and even though it's all bullshit it turns out to be quite fascinating like a lot of strange surreal science fiction books.

------------------------

This does not necessarily mean "day". It could mean thousands of years, or much more, which would let it fit in with the scientific proofs.

This is also a pretty stupid opinion, no offense, actually, sorry, but yes, if it offends you deal with it. It's like once people realize how old the World is and how wrong religion actually is you have to start making bullshit up so you don't sound like your belief system is based off shit itself. While at the same time making the shit up is no different than what the Bible is and still gives no proof at all. It's just saying nonsense. Means nothing. Nada. Zip. Boop. Blap. Kadoo!

I agree, Jesus said he would be back "soon", but it has been over 2000 years, so a day could easily mean a matter of hundreds, thousands, or even more years.

Which goes with what I say above. I mean if you're going by day meaning thousands of years then he might come back while the entire planet is trying to survive nuclear war. That's worse than my stupid fucking internet connection and he's a supreme being. Also I don't get why it matters when he has to show up and what it would actually matter.

I mean, we don't need a God at all. We as humans have the ability to make our own genetically modified creatures. Technology, science, and medical health is increasing. We're not too far from unlocking the secrets of immortality.

OcSMxo95Ows

----------------------------

Steven Hawkings is an arrogant crippled who over-estimates the ablities of mortals.

Are you trolling or just plain insane? Making fun of motor neurone diseases is just fucking low. "Over estimates the abilities of mortals" what the fuck are you even saying?

[GothicTsukiyomi]

Yeah, it is.


Why not? Disregarding that evolution and the Big Bang, etc. aren't random and don't rely on chance and luck, why can't chance and luck account for everything we see in nature?


Common misconception here. We share a common ancestor that was closer related to apes, and there is a ton of REAL evidence that we evolved from these previous lifeforms, as opposed to the utter lack of evidence to the contrary.


...So?


Well yeah, you could be a member of one of the thousands of other religions. It doesn't make the position any more valid.
I don't really know how to debate Athiest, it's like speaking Japanese to a Arab. I hope your not the one who voted my rep down saying that "I judge people and I talk about people for things they can't change about them selves" I don't know how the fuck anyone could have gotten that from anything, ANYTHING I said. But as for the bones part I was just showing proof that God's order of life and death is all around us. But I'm done. The majority of Tennagers are Atheist, I'm not even Holy. I mean look at my username and Signiture. I just have a view, if you voted down my rep for the fact I am not beliving we all just "Evolved" from particles in the water that just appeard from gasses. Then fuck you.

[Jess]

who said we evolved from particles in the water? o_O

[StoppingTime]

This is also a pretty stupid opinion, no offense, actually, sorry, but yes, if it offends you deal with it. It's like once people realize how old the World is and how wrong religion actually is you have to start making bullshit up so you don't sound like your belief system is based off shit itself. While at the same time making the shit up is no different than what the Bible is and still gives no proof at all. It's just saying nonsense. Means nothing. Nada. Zip. Boop. Blap. Kadoo!


These opinions were written over a thousand years ago....

[DanielD210]

God created it all! How is even thinkable that one day a random crap load of mass collided and formed some type of soup that formed trees and stuff and then a fish and then the fish flopped up on land and then eventually formed all organisms. BUT! if in fact the Earth is Billions of years old then why arent things being evovled into other things. I think the answer is "It takes too many years for us to see changes" THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!! :P I respect the different views of creation but for me I believe God the Father is the true divine creator of ALL! =)

[StoppingTime]

God created it all! How is even thinkable that one day a random crap load of mass collided and formed some type of soup that formed trees and stuff and then a fish and then the fish flopped up on land and then eventually formed all organisms. BUT! if in fact the Earth is Billions of years old then why arent things being evovled into other things. I think the answer is "It takes too many years for us to see changes" THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!! :P I respect the different views of creation but for me I believe God the Father is the true divine creator of ALL! =)

I'm quite religious, and I must say this argument, in this day in age, is just meaningless. We did evolve from other things. I will let deadpie or Rawal find some amazing shitload if information on this, but I just don't have the time.
Earth is in fact billions of years old!
You can't see things evolve in your lifetime just like a snap of a finger.
It take hundreds, thousands of years for the slightest changes!

[Jess]

God created it all! How is even thinkable that one day a random crap load of mass collided and formed some type of soup that formed trees and stuff and then a fish and then the fish flopped up on land and then eventually formed all organisms. BUT! if in fact the Earth is Billions of years old then why arent things being evovled into other things. I think the answer is "It takes too many years for us to see changes" THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!! :P I respect the different views of creation but for me I believe God the Father is the true divine creator of ALL! =)

well DUH. it takes a VERY VERY long time, changes don't just happen like *bam*

how is it even thinkable that some god just decided to create everything?

[Sephtyan]

I don't really know how to debate Athiest, it's like speaking Japanese to a Arab. I hope your not the one who voted my rep down saying that "I judge people and I talk about people for things they can't change about them selves" I don't know how the fuck anyone could have gotten that from anything, ANYTHING I said. But as for the bones part I was just showing proof that God's order of life and death is all around us. But I'm done. The majority of Tennagers are Atheist, I'm not even Holy. I mean look at my username and Signiture. I just have a view, if you voted down my rep for the fact I am not beliving we all just "Evolved" from particles in the water that just appeard from gasses. Then fuck you.

I'd like to point out that, while bones do turn into a form of "dust" after a couple decades or so, the dust produced from this still has the molecular composition of bone, just like the dust resulting from a cinderblock with a stick of dynamite in it will still have the same molecular composition of cinderblock. Bone will also carry small traces of DNA. As for "From dust, to dust", I can tell you that my bones sure as hell did NOT come from dust, but rather complex compositions of proteins that came together to harden and form a solid and compact biological substance.
I'd also like to add that while bones do indeed turn into "dust", the same thing happens to everything else, given enough time. Leaves take very little time to turn into dust, while trees take millennia. I can tell you of a certain baseball sitting in a glass case on my mantlepiece. Currently, the outer layer is flaking, and below the ball is a small ring of fine white ash, which comes from the flakes breaking up into smaller pieces. Eventually this will happen to the rest of the ball.
Saying that our bones stages of composition is a factor that proves that they were made from God proves nothing, when EVERYTHING can, given enough time, turn into dust. The only thing that can't turn into dust is a planet, as the gravitational field forces it under pressure, creating rock.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Since you believe this, how do you explain away all of the evidence for evolution?

P.S. If your answer is something along the lines of "I just do", then don't respond. I have nothing more to say to you if that's the case.

The evidence of evolution are not certain. Yes, there is some "proof" of evolution, but couldn't it possibly be something else?

If you are talking about fossils and skeletons, maybe it was a species that died off and most of them are still unfound.

There is evidence that Jesus was alive, there also is proof that the future events that are said to happen in the Bible come true. Also, the Bible also talked about 2 dinosaurs in the book of Job 40:15-41:1. And it also talks about astronomy and many other things.

There is just as much proof for the Bible as there is for evolution.

Source. (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)

[Jess]

um...the evidence of evolution is everywhere....

just because parts of the Bible have proof, doesn't mean it proves a god exists.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

um...the evidence of evolution is everywhere....

just because parts of the Bible have proof, doesn't mean it proves a god exists.

Your right, it doesn't. And no proof may ever fully prove God. But the same thing goes with evolution, yes there are parts of it proven, but it may never fully be proven either.

[deadpie]

There is just as much proof for the Bible as there is for evolution.

So much fucking evidence and knowledge!!!

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called Timothy 6:20

And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon. And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.

And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered. Kings 20:7

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof Job 38:6

Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. Psalm 19:4-6

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. Isaiah 34:7

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Isaiah 40:22

The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. Nahum 1:3

And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Matthew 9:2-6

Yes, paralysis is caused by sin in case you didn't know.

As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil. And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel. Matthew 9:22-23

Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. Matthew 17:15-18

Epilepsy is caused by Satan!!!

And much more stupid shit like that. I could go on but you should just read the book for yourself.

[Sugaree]

God created it all! How is even thinkable that one day a random crap load of mass collided and formed some type of soup that formed trees and stuff and then a fish and then the fish flopped up on land and then eventually formed all organisms. BUT! if in fact the Earth is Billions of years old then why arent things being evovled into other things. I think the answer is "It takes too many years for us to see changes" THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!! :P I respect the different views of creation but for me I believe God the Father is the true divine creator of ALL! =)

What. The. Fuck. Did I just read. You honestly think that a "random crap load of mass collided" to form a "type of soup" that formed "trees and stuff"? This process took hundreds of millions of years. It wasn't something that simple. The theory of evolution, logically, is sensible. I'm not saying it's right, but there is multiple amounts of evidence pointing to adaptation over the course of millions of years. Findings in the fossil record show that we did evolve from apes and then learned to adapt.

And yes, it DOES take millions of years to see changes in how a life form evolves. Think about a simple regenerating cell. Over time, it slowly begins to split from itself, and that copy splits from itself, and THAT copy splits from itself. It's a continual process. Now, this is different in lifeforms such as humans. We don't change over night because we must learn to adapt to our surroundings.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

Proof of evolution: A bug that eats nothing but nylon.

Disproof of creation: The bible states the universe was created 6.5 thousand years ago. Explain to me then how the light from a star that is 15 billion years away managed to reach us. I'll explain, if a star is 15 billion light years away it means it took 15 billion years for that stars light to reach us.

Possible disproof of reincarnation: There are 7 billion people in the world. I'm not sure exactly how long ago the world population was 6 billion but once upon a time it was that low. The point is where did all these new reincarnated spirits come from? I suppose they could have come from lesser life forms but even then I'm sure the population of those life forms is also increasing.

Monkeys on type writer theory: The theory is that is you put an unlimited amount of monkeys on typewriters and give them unlimited amount of time eventually one of the monkeys will retype the complete work of Shakespeare. Sounds crazy, but it actually make sense. The point is that just because it is unlikely that all this randomly came together it is still very possible and was bound to happen sometime since the birth of the universe 15 BILLION years ago.

[KewlKat]

I'm a Jehovah's Witness so I firmly believe Jehovah God created all things on earth.

[Korashk]

The evidence of evolution are not certain. Yes, there is some "proof" of evolution, but couldn't it possibly be something else?
The evidence for evolution is so certain that it's a scientific theory. Things literally can't get more proven than that. Evolution is also a fact, which makes it like gravity.

You see, there's the fact of gravity and then there's the Theory of Gravity that explains how and why gravity happens. The same is true for evolution and there is no reasonable way it could be anything else.

I wish more people on evolution's side were better informed about it. You might've noticed that people were saying that people and chimps aren't evolving anymore and that evolution takes so long to occur that we can't observe it. Both of these statements are false. Populations of organisms are always evolving when they reproduce and there are many instances (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html#part5) where scientists have watched as one species bred and evolved into another (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section5.html).

If you are talking about fossils and skeletons, maybe it was a species that died off and most of them are still unfound.
I don't know what you mean by this. I'm aware that most fossils are still unfound, but when species evolve the previous "version" pretty much always goes extinct. Things don't evolve over their lifespans, it only occurs from generation to generation with variations in DNA.

There is evidence that Jesus was alive,
Sure, but that evidence doesn't prove he was anything but a man.

there also is proof that the future events that are said to happen in the Bible come true.
Like? I'm guessing that every event you mention can be attributed to the vagueness of Biblical predictions, and doesn't prove anything.

Also, the Bible also talked about 2 dinosaurs in the book of Job 40:15-41:1. And it also talks about astronomy and many other things.
Mentioning dinosaurs in the Bible isn't an example of its proof, it's an example of its falsehood. Dinosaurs died out millions of years ago, not thousands of years ago. As for astronomy, so what? Some thing being true in the Bible doesn't mean anything if the true things were found without using the Bible as a reference.

There is just as much proof for the Bible as there is for evolution.

Source. (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)
Not even close. That source is also pretty inaccurate, mainly because it claims there's no scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. There is, and a lot of it. Mainly geological, biological, and mathematical. The Bible isn't even internally consistent, let alone externally.

[Tyberz]

I believe God created everything but is he not allowed to create by making mechanics and events we know as science, the big bang, or evolution? Is God not allowed to make science?!

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Mentioning dinosaurs in the Bible isn't an example of its proof, it's an example of its falsehood. Dinosaurs died out millions of years ago, not thousands of years ago. As for astronomy, so what? Some thing being true in the Bible doesn't mean anything if the true things were found without using the Bible as a reference.


Yes, the Bible may be wrong or there may be a different time amount when this was written. And this proves that there was existence of Earth millions of years ago, which shows the Bible's accuracy in the earth's age.

[StoppingTime]

Yes, the Bible may be wrong or there may be a different time amount when this was written. And this proves that there was existence of Earth millions of years ago, which shows the Bible's accuracy in the earth's age.

The Bible says the Earth is a little over 5770 years, so, no, it doesn't.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Like? I'm guessing that every event you mention can be attributed to the vagueness of Biblical predictions, and doesn't prove anything.

Like:
Matthew 24:6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
and
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
and
II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
These aren't necessarily "future" things that can be proven, but are clearly things that we see a lot in the world.

There are LOADS more on here. (http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/endtimes.php)
These are "end of times signs, but show a lot of the things the Bible has predicted.
_________________________________________________________________
The Bible says the Earth is a little over 5770 years, so, no, it doesn't.
As I have said, three times I believe, the Bible's time was thousands of years ago, and their time may be different.

I have posted a more deatiled post about this on this thread or another one...not sure.

[Sugaree]

I believe God created everything but is he not allowed to create by making mechanics and events we know as science, the big bang, or evolution? Is God not allowed to make science?!

If religion does not need science to support its claims, why should science use God to support its claims?

The Bible says the Earth is a little over 5770 years, so, no, it doesn't.


As I have said, three times I believe, the Bible's time was thousands of years ago, and their time may be different.

Now, Aaron does make a good point. The Bible could actually cover millions of years, not just a few thousand. At the time it was written, people just assumed the earth was just a few hundred years old. We know, obviously, that the world is more than 5000 years old, but you can't expect someone who lives very strictly by the Bible to believe this. Events in the Bible might have been hundreds, if not thousands, of years apart and we can't prove that to be true. So what do we do then? We assume it was all written in a relatively short amount of time and that all the events covered happened one after the other out of luck/coincidence.

[Genghis Khan]

Like:

Matthew 24:6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

So? It hasn't accurately predicted any future wars, it has just pointed out that wars will take place and they did even in Judeo-Biblical times between kings and kingdoms. It's just stated a philosophical point alongside it which essentially says 'don't worry about it, it has to happen'. I'm not quite sure how this serves as proof.

and

Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

Again, this isn't a prediction of any particular future event. It's just stating something very obvious, and even if it was predicting a certain event, there would be a hundred other self-contradictory samples from the Bible to explain.

and

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

None of this is necessarily true or applicable to every single man.

These aren't necessarily "future" things that can be proven, but are clearly things that we see a lot in the world.

These same things are pointed out in several other religions that believe they are correct. How would you differentiate between yours and others? Moreover how do you know that the Bible over other archaic scriptures is accurate?

As I have said, three times I believe, the Bible's time was thousands of years ago, and their time may be different.

It may be different? Or was it different? Now you'll have to find out how differently time was measured back then and compare the new findings of the age of the earth to the Biblical claims (in the context of time of course). If it turns out that the Bible is close or equal to the currently believed age of the earth then you might just have a case for why the Bible can give us precise answers to philosopho-scientific questions.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Now, Aaron does make a good point. The Bible could actually cover millions of years, not just a few thousand. At the time it was written, people just assumed the earth was just a few hundred years old. We know, obviously, that the world is more than 5000 years old, but you can't expect someone who lives very strictly by the Bible to believe this. Events in the Bible might have been hundreds, if not thousands, of years apart and we can't prove that to be true. So what do we do then? We assume it was all written in a relatively short amount of time and that all the events covered happened one after the other out of luck/coincidence.
Thank you!

I mean you have the creation of Earth in early Genesis, and then Noah's ark in later genesis, but this at least happened 20+ years later because Adam and Eve already had children at the time, and so did their sons, ect.

That could have possibly have been thousands of years apart, we don't know, and they don't tell us.

[alex4nder]

How do you think that the Earth was created? How were we created?

That's a good question, something i've never really thought of.. until now that is.

I'm not a very religious person (neither is my brother or our parents) but i think if i'd have to pick a choice on the survey, i'd pick god as it just seems to make the most sense to me.

I don't know though, this is something i'll have to think about some now that the idea has been planted in my head. :P

[Professional Russian]

God created it all! How is even thinkable that one day a random crap load of mass collided and formed some type of soup that formed trees and stuff and then a fish and then the fish flopped up on land and then eventually formed all organisms. BUT! if in fact the Earth is Billions of years old then why arent things being evovled into other things. I think the answer is "It takes too many years for us to see changes" THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!!! :P I respect the different views of creation but for me I believe God the Father is the true divine creator of ALL! =)

Oh my fucking god. That is dumbest thing I have heard and this is what i believe actually happened:

What. The. Fuck. Did I just read. You honestly think that a "random crap load of mass collided" to form a "type of soup" that formed "trees and stuff"? This process took hundreds of millions of years. It wasn't something that simple. The theory of evolution, logically, is sensible. I'm not saying it's right, but there is multiple amounts of evidence pointing to adaptation over the course of millions of years. Findings in the fossil record show that we did evolve from apes and then learned to adapt.

And yes, it DOES take millions of years to see changes in how a life form evolves. Think about a simple regenerating cell. Over time, it slowly begins to split from itself, and that copy splits from itself, and THAT copy splits from itself. It's a continual process. Now, this is different in lifeforms such as humans. We don't change over night because we must learn to adapt to our surroundings.

I really dont like debates about Evolution because is no real Definitive facts of how the earth and humans were made. But I personally do not believe that there is a god that fucking created the universe. The Scientific fact is makes alot more sense than the Religious theory.

[StoppingTime]

O according to the Bible (going on the Old Testament here), the Earth is around 5770+ years old (Now, this also, taken with a grain of salt. It may have been from a certain point, that I don't know. Now, there have been scientific findings that state that it is billions of years old, and I 100% believe that.

Now, with creation.
When the Bible said, ויהי ערב ויהי בוקר, יום אחד– meaning "And there was morning and night and there was Day One".

This does not necessarily mean "day". It could mean thousands of years, or much more, which would let it fit in with the scientific proofs. Also, Adam and Eve may not necessarily have been the first humans, but the first with certain intelligence levels greater then others, etc...

So, if you're going from a religious perspective, don't take it word for word.



Now, Aaron does make a good point. The Bible could actually cover millions of years, not just a few thousand. At the time it was written, people just assumed the earth was just a few hundred years old. We know, obviously, that the world is more than 5000 years old, but you can't expect someone who lives very strictly by the Bible to believe this. Events in the Bible might have been hundreds, if not thousands, of years apart and we can't prove that to be true. So what do we do then? We assume it was all written in a relatively short amount of time and that all the events covered happened one after the other out of luck/coincidence.

Looks like I kinda said that already...
I do live as a quite religious person, and do believe the Earth is around 4.6 billion years old, not 5770. But of course, the days of creation could have covered thousands, millions of what we know as years.
And it wan't written in a short amount of time if you followed it by the stories in it.

If you want be to go all "Old Testament religious" on you, I can.

[khila]

yes to both why the particles had to come from somewhere to create the big bang and if u track them far enough u will have to have a strong external force (seeing that its impossible to create something with nothing) a god is the only choice until we find a way to trace it back (yaaaaay for being 1/3 atheist 1/3 christan and 1/3 scienctoligist)

[Can'tHelpIt]

Because I, don't believe so. In my beliefs, God created the first humans, Adam and Eve, when he created the earth.

But that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

So "God" is real because YOU believe so thats like a little girl saying "Unicorns are real because I believe in them"

The evidence of evolution are not certain. Yes, there is some "proof" of evolution, but couldn't it possibly be something else?

If you are talking about fossils and skeletons, maybe it was a species that died off and most of them are still unfound.

There is evidence that Jesus was alive, there also is proof that the future events that are said to happen in the Bible come true. Also, the Bible also talked about 2 dinosaurs in the book of Job 40:15-41:1. And it also talks about astronomy and many other things.

There is just as much proof for the Bible as there is for evolution.

Source. (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)

There is WAY more proof for evolution than your silly unicorn god thing. First of look at Darwin's Finches the first proof of evolution. Darwin an explorer 1831-1836 looked at the birds from Galapagos islands and noticed how their beaks had changed per island to get food. Then he studied immigrant birds that came by wind, who resembled starlings and watched as their beaks changed on different islands. And if you say that other organisms can evolve but we can't then I will of course ask why and then you will say because God(Unicorn) made them. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR PET UNICORN DUMBASS!!!! There is no reason that we couldn't evolve if other organisms have. Also while evolution has a significant more amount of proof than Unicorns we also have a lot less disproof. Disprove one thing about evolution WITHOUT bringing up Unicorn/God/Any beliefs I want cold hard disproof

Well, The Big Bang was the original making of our planet yes but it didn't make the Earth itself. Stardust/Meteors/a bunch of other stuff created thee Earth but the Big Bang created those so would you like me to answer Big Bang or Other clear up for me plz

[ATP787]

How do you think that the Earth was created? How were we created?
This is a thread where you can go as far back as you want, all the way to theories of evolution or the big bang, or religion all you want.

I will start:

I believe that God created the earth and all things on it.The big bang doesn't deal with the creation of the earth. But more importantly, why do God and the big bang have to be mutually exclusive? Your right, it doesn't. And no proof may ever fully prove God. But the same thing goes with evolution, yes there are parts of it proven, but it may never fully be proven either.How would you define something as "fully proven?"

I can't be 100% certain that gravity won't suddenly lapse if I were to step off a 1,400 foot building, but I have no intention of chancing it. There is WAY more proof for evolution than your silly unicorn god thing.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOUR PET UNICORN DUMBASS!!!!If you're going to use petty caricatures, at least be original.

[FojeJC]

I believe the earth was created by Smileys :p
They combine their happy powers making a ray of pure imagination, and tada.

Either that or dark monsters were experimenting and accidentally went poof, tada.

I really couldn't care less now as you can see above.

[Can'tHelpIt]

The big bang doesn't deal with the creation of the earth. But more importantly, why do God and the big bang have to be mutually exclusive? How would you define something as "fully proven?"

I can't be 100% certain that gravity won't suddenly lapse if I were to step off a 1,400 foot building, but I have no intention of chancing it. If you're going to use petty caricatures, at least be original.

Just bc i used unicorns doesnt chang all the evidence and i've never someone describe "god" as a unicorn huh

[dannym2326]

I believe in the big bang theory.

I neither no nor care what caused, created or triggered the big bang.

[Texas warrior]

I believe in the big bang, but I also think that god caused the big bang.

[Magus]

Because (assuming you understand and have some knowledge of the Bible) according to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve, the first humans.

Did you know that Adam and Eve is an Assyrian fable/allegory stolen by Jews?

So, you base our existence on a story?

Your right, it doesn't. And no proof may ever fully prove God. But the same thing goes with evolution, yes there are parts of it proven, but it may never fully be proven either.

It is fully proven.

What you have is a case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Smeagol]

I prefer the big bang theory, but neither can be proven or disproven, having had to have taken place millennia ago.

[ryan2000]

I prefer the big bang theory, but neither can be proven or disproven, having had to have taken place millennia ago.

Neither can be FULLY proven, however, there is enough scientific proof to have made the idea of the big-bang into a widely accepted scientific theorem. There is no "theory" of creationism, because quite frankly, other than a book written 100 years after the death of Christ, there is no true proof of a creator. Now, do not get me wrong, I do not deny the very possibility that there is a god; I do accept that fact that there is a chance that i could be wrong, and that there is a god, allah, or other spiritual being. I just follow the one with the most solid proof, and which seems more logical to me.

[Rage of the Menace]

I find that a really bad choice, as I believe in Progressive Creationism...

[double r]

I believe that it was a matter of atomic creation. So science.

[gayprideguy12]

all the councidences that the earth is inthe perfict spot the life, the big bang and the tv show "the big bang theroy" (random thing)

[Magus]

Because I, don't believe so. In my beliefs, God created the first humans, Adam and Eve, when he created the earth.

But that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

Your belief contradicts reality.

[Sudds3]

I'm a catholic....a doubting catholic....and I believe that it wasn't God who created the world! I think it was the big bang theory or something like that, I have recently found myself doubting my religion and thinking that there could possibly not be a god.....and I don't really know why I'm just thinking this now. I will remain catholic and pray often in hopes for an answer, but I'm doubting myself. I believe that science is correct, amd that religion isnt always correct. But that's just me

[Noirtier]

Personally, I am a Christian who believes God created the universe. I have studied evolution extensively, and this is the conclusion I came up with. I do not wish to get into a debate over it, I am simply here to say which side I stand on. However, I do not judge those who believe differently.

[kenoloor]

I do not wish to get into a debate over it

Then don't post in a debate forum.

[Bolt]

Most Christians have not read the Bible themselves, but do listen in church as I do...I have not read it, but know a great deal due to church readings

If you do not read and learn then you can not claim knowledge over the subject. I have read up on numerous religions in an attempt to find a belief which I can truly follow. I have absolutely no issue with religion as I have been seeking religious guidance for the past year and believe religion is a key pillar for one's life (even atheism - which is a belief system rather than a religion). You on the other hand, I am having issues with because you embody ignorance. You take what you are told and believe it unquestioningly. Rather than read and study the God which you believe in you instead decide to listen to your pastor. So if I was a pastor then you would believe my every word over the bible? That's lazy. Do your homework before you believe in a higher power or it's belief system or moral compass for that matter. The fact that you have not read key events such as Noah's Ark, Jesus's Crucifixion, Lazarus's rising, Cain and Abel, and the massive lists of other events in the bible FIRST HAND means that you are incapable of claiming any belief of that religion because, to be quite frank, you technically know nothing besides for some second hand telling which can be false for all you know since you NEVER READ YOUR OWN RELIGIOUS BOOK.

Just because most Christian's are ignorant and lazy of their own beliefs DEFINITELY doesn't mean that you have to.

On topic: I don't know how the universe was created and I am in no way vain enough to ever claim that I have the knowledge to know how the formation of all life occurred in any way.

[Jean Poutine]

Who knows, and who cares.

Aside from scientific curiosity, there is no point to know.

With our current understanding of physics, there isn't a definitive way to tell. There's a definitive way to at least sweep off some nonsense, though.

The Old Testament uses יום consistently to describe the period of time where God created a part of the world. As far as I'm concerned, "yom" means "day", always meant "day", will always mean "day" and should not be understood as anything else. In Arabic, يوم ...pronounced "yawm". What does it mean? A fucking day in the sense of 24 hours, not whatever thousand years! And guess the hell what, the words are genetically related and share a root in proto-Semitic! It's like taking two siblings, saying one is human and the other's a mudcrab. Come on, you can do better than that.

Why would it? If "day" was supposed to mean a few millenias of God screwing around with the Universe then why write "vayehi erev, vayehi boker" - and there was evening and there was morning. Unless somehow God slowed the cycle to last millenias while he was busy fiddling around there's no reason to write this. It doesn't take a high school diploma to notice that evening is when the sun goes down one way and morning is when it goes back up the other way, so I'm sure God could have managed the same impressive feat of logic. It's causal inference : bereishit mentions erev and boker, and finishes with yom. A morning and an evening equals a day.

Look...when you have a text in front of you, you interpret it as written first. That's the first thing everybody learns in law school. Those episodes where the bad lawyer twists words to get the bad guy out? Bullshit. Why would a judge give credence to twisty-bendy theories when obvious words obviously expressing the obvious will of the obvious lawmaker are just in front of his eyes? When they are unclear, sure. When will is absent from the words, that is where interpretation comes in. What is unclear about day, morning and evening?

That argument is like saying "I'm writing a book about berries and I'm going to call cherries, blackberries throughout. Why? Because I'm a fucking boss." Would you read a book on berries that tells you blackberries have a long stem and a hard core you must spit out when eating them, that they are stereotypically depicted as bright red and represent winnings in slot machines? No? Then why read a book that says a day is a million years? If you start saying "day" could mean 65 sextillion years, then "God" might also start looking a lot like "penis", and oh why the Hell not, Moses backwards is "Sesom" which sounds kinda like French "sésame" so maybe the Bible has an allusion to Sesame Street and Moses is actually a muppet. When does the bullshit end and when do we start realizing that if we start interpreting everything as we want it to be the Bible eventually becomes an ode to Ron Jeremy's dick?

Besides, science shows days were actually shorter as the Earth was younger, not longer, and they certainly didn't last millions of years by any stretch of the imagination. I trust you'll look up some studies yourself because it's 3AM and I can't be arsed. If the book is infallible then it contradicts (again) known scientific fact. If it is fallible, that whoever wrote it made a mistake, or even knowingly wrote "morning" and "evening" instead, of, say, "several thousands of years", then why listen to it at all, since every single word in the damn thing is liable to be false?

Let it go. The Ancients had no reason to write apocryphally in their little story book. It's just epic writing, like Beowulf or the Argonautica. The Bible is the Jewish version of the Aeneid, and it's amazing because I don't remember a lot of Romans fucking worshipping the Aeneid. Symbols do not involve reinventing definitions for three letter words. You can try to twist it any way you want but anybody who believes in creation as described in the Bible is simply daft, and I am being nice.

[The_Narwhal]

I personally belive in the big bang theory more than any other, as while we cannot prove any theory, this one seems like the most logical and realistic one. I also don't believe in any of the creation story stuff. We weren't created, we evolved.