Execution

[green]

so I had to do a presentation in school about my views on the death penalty. now here in australia the death penalty is outlawed. I presented my views on the subject as that australia should have the death penalty. as should alot of countries.
Anyone who says that telling someone that murder is wrong then executing them is hypocritical needs to check their head. Your not saying its wrong to murder someone, the whole point is to make the penalty so sever that no one will bloody do it.
I never really liked the thought of lethal injection. I would prefer to be executed many other ways. be heading someone is one way, the rope is another. The rope is almost painless when done properly, the victim doesnt suffocate, the neck will snap clean if done properly. Same with be heading, If you make it a swift stroke the head will be cut cleanly and you would die instantly.
I know this is probobly gonna turn into a shit fight but i want your thoughts.

[Desuetude]

Im not to sure on execution anymore. I used to be firmly against it but after having done a term about I in school I can see the positives of it.
Urgh, it's a hard one. They could get some innocent person and kill them, people with life sentences won't be getting out so why not kill them?, jails will be emptied a little. I still think it is inhumane but people with very severe crimes should have something worse than a jail cell. It would give the families affected by the person closure but the family of the person would be hurt.
There are so many arguments about this, I've done about 4 different debates on the subject and it really is a hard on to pin point the key things. So yeah, im indecisive about execution.

[Mortal Coil]

I agree with Nikki, I used to be firmly against it but have changed my mind. I know of a few crimes where I would definitely like to see the death penalty, and some that I think warrant worse~ but that would definitely be inhumane and I'm a bit of a hothead.

[BFG9001]

No one has the right to take someone's life.

[Genghis Khan]

Anyone who says that telling someone that murder is wrong then executing them is hypocritical needs to check their head. Your not saying its wrong to murder someone, the whole point is to make the penalty so sever that no one will bloody do it.

I don't see how you've addressed this point and shown how it's not hypocritical. Even as a method of prevention the death penalty isn't 100%, there will always be people who won't abide by the law, there will always be sociopaths who indulge in murder and other kinds of physical abuse. Besides, it is very hypocritical because among saying that it is wrong to kill people you're killing people to follow up on your statement.

Urgh, it's a hard one. They could get some innocent person and kill them, people with life sentences won't be getting out so why not kill them?, jails will be emptied a little.

Except people with life sentences who are innocent can be bailed out if the real killer is caught. Killing innocent people who have been accused to empty jails is callous and does not solve the problem, it just means innocent people are being killed on the premise of a system that makes value judgements on who is to live and who isn't entitled to it.

I still think it is inhumane but people with very severe crimes should have something worse than a jail cell. It would give the families affected by the person closure but the family of the person would be hurt.

Where can you draw that line? No one can draw a national/global line because everyone has a different line to draw. Some people would execute those who have murdered regardless of the situation whereas others will only have them executed if they've killed a number of people. I mean, how many people do you murder and what level of pain do you have to put them and others through before you decide that they aren't worth living? There cannot be a fixed quantity. Plus I don't know if you're going against it or for it judging from the structure of the sentence.

[GetOffMyBlade]

My view of the Death Penalty= Killing people, who kill people, to show other people, that killing people is bad.

[project_icarus]

No one deserves to die. I know that I can be a hypocrite quite a bit after saying that, but seriously, no matter what someone's done, they don't deserve to die (yet sometimes something has to be done).

[Sleepwalking]

People believe if someone takes a life, theirs should be taken too.
Even though the person murdered someone, I don't think we should be allowed to end somebodies life. If the person commited the worst of crimes, I would be leaning on the side of executing them. They shouldn't be able to do something that severe and live on, while the victim's families suffer.

People like Anders Behring Breivik truely deserve this type of punishment, but due to his country and alleged "mental state", execution would never happen.
(I've only used him as an example as what he did really upset me when it happened, as it still does now.)

[project_icarus]

People believe if someone takes a life, theirs should be taken too.
Even though the person murdered someone, I don't think we should be allowed to end somebodies life. If the person commited the worst of crimes, I would be leaning on the side of executing them. They shouldn't be able to do something that severe and live on, while the victims' families suffer.

People like Anders Behring Breivik truely deserve this type of punishment, but due to his country and alleged "mental state", execution would never happen.
(I've only used him as an example as what he did really upset me when it happened, as it still does now.)

This. Basically what I was trying to say, couldn't have said it better myself ;)

[CuriousDestruction]

Oy, the death penalty. Well, I believe in it for the most extreme cases and only those on a case by case basis. If a drug lord is still giving orders to his employees from jail and cannot be stopped even if he's in solitary confinement, you gotta put that guy down. The serial killer/rapist that still hurts people in jail, he's not stopping any time soon. I believe nobody has the right to take somebody's life, unless it is in the immediate defense of yourself or others, like with the cases above. Yet it should always be the last option no matter what. It's more expensive than life in prison and is no matter what, an unfortunate act. We have no reason to celebrate it. And on the note of methods.

Beheading sucks. it's disgusting to clean up and if done improperly it's quite horrifyingly painful. And when heads are cut off, they still twitch! -creepy-

And don't even talk to me about hanging. That is almost impossible to do properly with certainty. There are too many variables. Not to mention it causes the victim to release their bowels upon the neck breaking. Nobody needs to clean that up. Yuck. Just no.

The injection is the cleanest and the least painful.

[project_icarus]

most extreme cases
I agree. Not even then is it excusable, but then again, sometimes it has to be done.
even if he's in solitary confinement
How the hell do you expect someone to even attempt to communicate with the outside world whilst in confinement?
don't even talk to me about hanging
I agree. Just adding something rather, the brain must retain some degree of consciousness, and that would be a bitch to be a brain in a dead body.
The injection is the cleanest and the least painful.
I disagree, it is painful, and the prisoner is paralyzed. Sure, it's the cleanest.

[Erasmus]

i think that if someone's murders someone, it's almost fitting that they should be killed

[project_icarus]

i think that if someone's murders someone, it's almost fitting that they should be killed

Except that's not going to bring back the previously deceased, it's not doing any good, and it's just causing more pain and hurt.

[Erasmus]

Except that's not going to bring back the previously deceased, it's not doing any good, and it's just causing more pain and hurt.

As Matt said, what will that accomplish? Other than wasting taxpayer dollars...

it would deter other would-be murderers.

[CuriousDestruction]

How the hell do you expect someone to even attempt to communicate with the outside world whilst in confinement?


It has been done, often using morse code by banging on walls or pipes. Or they just bribe guards. Drug kingpins are particularly good at it.

As for injections, yes it is paralyzing. So the victim doesn't feel anything. How is not painless?

[Jess]

I'm totally against the death penalty.

death is too easy of a way out for killers. and what if the killer is mentally ill? also, it does not stop people from killing. I believe that in places where the death penalty is illegal, there is less murder

what about the family of the murderer? maybe they believe the guilty person did not murder at all, and sometimes that might be true. The person on death row might actually be innocent.

and about what teens that kill?

[project_icarus]

It has been done, often using morse code by banging on walls or pipes. Or they just bribe guards. Drug kingpins are particularly good at it.

As for injections, yes it is paralyzing. So the victim doesn't feel anything. How is not painless?

No pipes unless you count the bars on a window which is way out of reach, nothing's going to get through those walls.

[CuriousDestruction]

The drugs aren't administered by medical professionals, so it's a recipe for disaster. Just because the person is paralysed doesn't mean they don't feel anything.

Uh, I am pretty sure they are. I just did a little bit of research and found that a Physician is required by law to be on site to declare death and I am assuming to administer the drugs. But don't quote me on that just yet because I have not found anything definitive. Can you post a link that says otherwise?

No pipes unless you count the bars on a window which is way out of reach, nothing's going to get through those walls.

Then how do you think people escape then? I know people who have been in solitary confinement. There are always ways with enough money and a clever mind. But I am done arguing over this because it's off topic.

[CuriousDestruction]

In the US, it's a so-called state secret and it's very sketchy. They are usually referred to by prisons as "execution technicians".

M.D.'s can't participate in executions due to the hippocratic oath of doing no harm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection

You are right, I am wrong: "the warden will signal that the execution may commence, and the executioner(s) (either prison staff or private citizens depending on the jurisdiction) will then manually inject the three drugs in sequence. During the execution, the condemned's cardiac rhythm is monitored. Death is pronounced after cardiac activity stops. Death usually occurs within seven minutes, although the whole procedure can take up to two hours, as was the case with the execution of Christopher Newton on May 24, 2007. According to state law, if a physician's participation in the execution is prohibited for reasons of medical ethics, then the death ruling can be made by the state Medical Examiner's Office. After confirmation that death has occurred, a coroner signs the condemned’s death certificate."

Yuck.

[Amnesiac]

The death penalty is too expensive (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&tok=4jOv9BhGtfqB8RdikNaAdQ&cp=4&gs_id=d&xhr=t&q=cost+of+the+death+penalty&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=cost&aq=0p&aqi=p-p2g2&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=8229844274f67c87&biw=1920&bih=1019) and, as has been said, an easy way out for murderers. You can't seriously say that these people want to be alive. Most of them greet death as their escape from a society that abhors them. Spending decades in prison, in my opinion, is preferable to the death penalty as the "ultimate" punishment.

I don't believe the judicial system should have that kind of power, to take somebody's life. There are way too many flaws and "what-ifs" in the system. There's no undo button when it comes to executions, and the potential to murder an innocent person for a crime they didn't commit is much too high to justify whatever "societal protections" the death penalty supposedly has.

[Sleepwalking]

Have you ever thought about the condemns family?

If the person was infact proven guilty, I doubt the family would still be on their side. Of course they'd mourn their passing, but the person executed deserved it.

As Matt said, what will that accomplish? Other than wasting taxpayer dollars...

They will be punished by death. Murdering someone and living a fairly easy life in jail isn't punishment. The person knew what they were doing when they killed the victim. The killer deserves it. Though, it could be the easy way out in some cases, but death is still a punishment worth receiving, in some cases.

And onto a point made by LithiumAneurysm;

There are way too many flaws and "what-ifs" in the system.

This is too true. And thanks to the list provided by DoNotStandUp, the proof is there; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

To make my point clear, I am on neither side. I do believe some people should executed due to their crimes, but then again some people have been executed and been proven innocent. Only in cases where proof has been there to prove they have commited the crimes stated, should they be executed.

[Sleepwalking]

Actually, I'm pretty sure running Jails cost alot compared to an execution.
Obviously I don't have the facts, but it seems logical.

[Erasmus]

They will be punished by death. Murdering someone and living a fairly easy life in jail isn't punishment. The person knew what they were doing when they killed the victim. The killer deserves it. Though, it could be the easy way out in some cases, but death is still a punishment worth receiving, in some cases.

Exactly my point!

[Jean Poutine]

I'm pretty bloody. I know the death penalty is wrong by principle but I'd certainly take some people around the prison backyard and shoot them in the face.

The death penalty is so expensive because death row inmates have some rights regular inmates don't have. They have more ways of appeal (hence why some of them are still in the death row after 30 years), they have two government-appointed lawyers instead of one, and other stuff like that. Ironically it's the jurists making it expensive.

I'd welcome the death penalty were it used in exceptional circumstances, and definitely when the accused's guilt is established way beyond a reasonable doubt. Then one could get rid of the fluff surrounding the judicial treatment of death penalty, making it much less expensive. Not for deterrence since that doesn't work, but perhaps only for the sense of closure it brings.

[green]

ok then, if you would not have the death penalty, i would have the right to kill someone who commits a crime on my land. If i own an acre of land and some guy comes on there and rapes someone, i should be allowed to pass judgement.

[CuriousDestruction]

ok then, if you would not have the death penalty, i would have the right to kill someone who commits a crime on my land. If i own an acre of land and some guy comes on there and rapes someone, i should be allowed to pass judgement.

So long as your land is within a given country such as the US, it is the government who shall be the arbiter, the judge, the jury, and the punisher. Unless your acre of land is a country, you only have the right to kill him in self defense.

[Korashk]

My view of the Death Penalty= Killing people, who kill people, to show other people, that killing people is bad.
People need to get over this misrepresentation of the other side's position. At least properly represent the other side with the phrase "Killing people who murder people, to show other people that murdering people is bad." Basically no one claims that killing people is wrong de facto.

With that said, I'm not against the concept of the death penalty, but I am against it in the practical sense. Too many innocents slip through the cracks to trust a government or any other human entity with the task.

[Korashk]

But you can argue that it's murdering people who murder people.

The definition of first-degree murder in the US is "any murder that is willful and premeditated."

Doesn't that definition fit in with the planned and wilful killing of someone?
What's the definition of murder then? The one you gave is circular and therefore fallacious. I'll give you the real definition: "The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder)"

Even if the US legal dictionary wasn't on my side; from a moral sense a retaliatory action doesn't have the same consideration as an initiatory one.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

I'm against it.
1. I would much rather die than spend the rest of my lonely life getting butt raped everyday. In other words they deserve to suffer as much as possible for what they did.
2. Someone could easily be falsely convicted and then their fucked.

I wouldn't be below torture for VERY serious crimes though. They should have absolute proof though.

Why the fuck are we arguing about the definition of murder?

[Jess]

They will be punished by death. Murdering someone and living a fairly easy life in jail isn't punishment. The person knew what they were doing when they killed the victim. The killer deserves it. Though, it could be the easy way out in some cases, but death is still a punishment worth receiving, in some cases.

not if they were mentally ill.

[CuriousDestruction]

not if they were mentally ill.

Mentally ill is complicated though. Someone can be mentally ill yet totally know not to kill people. Hell a lot of people on this forum have mental illnesses, particularly if you count depression as one of those, yet they don't kill people nor would it excuse their actions if they did. Where do you draw the line with mental incapacity. I know personally it's hard for me to do so, and it's certainly hard for the courts.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

I'm back :), I believe in the death penalty in severe murder cases (2+ people murdered) and in almost no other instance, except maybe a terrorist attack or something really bad.

I think that a double murder is like committing 2 crimes (in my eyes), and should be punished as so.

i.e.: If you assault a person once, you get a certain sentence (say probation), if you do it again you get a higher sentence (say 2 years), and so on and so forth...

Why not the same for murder. A lot of states (and countries) give a life sentence with or without parole, and the next step should be death...after a fair trial.

It may not cost any less (as stated before in another thread), but frees up jails and shows to other people the bad consequences of a horrible crime.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

The cost far outweighs the value of getting free jail cells... but besides that, freeing up jails for what? More offenders? Society needs to stop putting all the weight on punishing crime and start trying to prevent it in the damn first place.

I agree, but I think the government is too stupid and corrupt to do that, even though that would save millions, billion, even trillions of dollars. Also, how would we do that, there will always be psychopaths and criminals that will be stupid, but i don't know...

[Thunduhbuhlt]

There will always be criminals, but you can greatly reduce the numbers. Obviously after the offence has been committed there's nothing you can do... but implementing clubs, programs and the like that can help prevent it.

But how effective will those things be, and how much would they save us? My guess will be millions, and would probably be worth it, so yes, essentially I agree.

I think it all starts at the home, if you have a bad child hood, i doubt you will grow up as good as someone who does...I know a few people who are criminals with multiple offenses and had horrible childhoods... Parents & teachers should teach children to be good...



On a completely unrelated note: Do you like my new username better or worse than ncdinc97?

[Thunduhbuhlt]

We agree on a topic :D haha and yeah all of those stupid anti-crime ads and programs are shit and do absolutely nothing...

I agree, my new one seems so much better to me, wait for my signature Aaron is making for me, gonna be sick,

[Cody 1324]

I am pro-death sentence. There are many crimes i see fit. For all ypu people who say its wrong look at binladen, if he was caught i would have wanted him dead any way, or has anyone out there heard of tori stfford? She was an 8 year old girl who was abducted, beaten, sexualy asulted and killed with a hammer, her killers deserve to die. Im just saying, the punishment should fit the crime.

[Syntax]

The death sentence should apply to the highest of crimes. For the lowliest, jail would do. As simple as that. Why complicate it?

[project_icarus]

The death sentence should apply to the highest of crimes. For the lowliest, jail would do

I disagree. Jail, is sufficient punishment to any convicted criminal. The sentence is what varies. As I keep saying, NO ONE deserves to die. Not even the worst of the worst.

As simple as that. Why complicate it?

Defeating the purpose of a debate, much?

I am pro-death sentence. There are many crimes i see fit. For all ypu people who say its wrong look at binladen, if he was caught i would have wanted him dead any way, or has anyone out there heard of tori stfford? She was an 8 year old girl who was abducted, beaten, sexualy asulted and killed with a hammer, her killers deserve to die. Im just saying, the punishment should fit the crime.

No one deserves to die. Bin Laden is dead. He was executed, just not caught.
That 8 year old girl's killers don't either. They deserve, to rot underneath a fucking rotting jail.
The death sentence doesn't fit the crime, no one deserves to die.

Post statement; spell check! I, you, it's, Bin Laden, I, anyway, Tori, Strafford, sexually, assaulted, I'm.
(Sorry.)

Let's give this a scenario...
A 14 year old girl comes home from a party, say around midnight. She lives on a secluded street near a red-light district, a dysfunctional neighbourhood. She's just gotten off of a bus. A homeless man is sleeping on a bench, a couple meters away. He gets up, grabs her. They get into a struggle and she is raped and killed, unbelievably brutally. The man is identified and a little more than a 'shady character', after leading authorities on a 2 week long manhunt. He's caught and proven guilty.

EVEN THEN, the homeless guy doesn't deserve to die. And I can say this to many people, don't say I'm stupid, I know what it's like to be effected by a major crime offender.

[Genghis Khan]

The death sentence should apply to the highest of crimes. For the lowliest, jail would do.

How do you define the highest of crimes?

As simple as that. Why complicate it?

What puzzles me is you don't think you're complicating things by giving a vague statement on who should be killed

The death sentence should only apply to the highest of crimes

I am pro-death sentence. There are many crimes i see fit. For all ypu people who say its wrong look at binladen, if he was caught i would have wanted him dead any way

Oh what a shame society didn't even stop to listen to you.

or has anyone out there heard of tori stfford? She was an 8 year old girl who was abducted, beaten, sexualy asulted and killed with a hammer, her killers deserve to die. Im just saying, the punishment should fit the crime.

How do you just decide what quantity of torture fits death? It's really easy to be moved by events like these and claim that only death will stop these people at their tracks, but whilst doing so you're not even stopping to think that maybe people have some kind of motivation or live in a fucked up enough reality to believe that what they're doing isn't wrong. It would take immense willpower for me to just get out of bed and smash someone's head in with a hammer, it really would.

To sum up my reply to your post


No one can objectively decide who is to die because not everybody can agree on a fixed quantity/quality of immorality that makes people deserving of death. There's just you and your individual opinion.
To show just a little more humanity, maybe it could pay off to look a little deeper into psychopathology, psychodynamics and just psychology in general. The human brain is an intricate set of cells, a lot of things we do are not rational. A lot of our motives cannot really be explained, but given that people do things like these we have to consider that there might be something wrong with them. I don't know about you, or any other pro-death penalty people but I find it even more callous that people who are likely to have been through a really rough life, ending up with a very different perception on things are ridiculed and immediately labelled as cold-hearted killers. You can't even begin to understand what their level of conception, understanding and perception may be and without making the effort you go ahead and put them to death.


--

Since no one has addressed a word I've said on this thread. I'd like to think I've won.

[Peace God]

To show just a little more humanity, maybe it could pay off to look a little deeper into psychopathology, psychodynamics and just psychology in general. The human brain is an intricate set of cells, a lot of things we do are not rational. A lot of our motives cannot really be explained, but given that people do things like these we have to consider that there might be something wrong with them. I don't know about you, or any other pro-death penalty people but I find it even more callous that people who are likely to have been through a really rough life, ending up with a very different perception on things are ridiculed and immediately labelled as cold-hearted killers. You can't even begin to understand what their level of conception, understanding and perception may be and without making the effort you go ahead and put them to death.
How dare you put yourself in someone else's shoes.

[Genghis Khan]

How dare you put yourself in someone else's shoes.

I blame the parents.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

I blame the parents.

I agree, it starts in the home, parents should teach their kids to be good. But some I guess don't have suitable parents, in that case it should be teachers and any trustworthy adult, crime is soaring, but doesn't have to.

[project_icarus]

I think that the death penalty is bad

[Peace God]

I blame the parents.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0fe73gqH21qbuwpuo1_500.gif

Damn you Atticus!