The Bible :: Gay Debate

[Hyper]

Ok so how about we continue this here...? As it isn't meant to be in TWPR.

I stick to my previous opinion, that there is no real indication that they were gay and that Ironic just understood the text the way he wanted to understand it

[MoveAlong]

That's true to some extent, altho one quote suprised me, and it had nothing to do with 'loving family'.

Originally Posted by Ironic Infidel In England
2 Samuel 1:26 "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."


'Of women' suggests that the love for another man is greater than that of a woman who is in love with him.

Though, this could be interpreted as homosexuality or just a really close friendship/bond.

[Hyper]

That's true to some extent, altho one quote suprised me, and it had nothing to do with 'loving family'.

Originally Posted by Ironic Infidel In England
2 Samuel 1:26 "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."


'Of women' suggests that the love for another man is greater than that of a woman who is in love with him.

Though, this could be interpreted as homosexuality or just a really close friendship/bond.


This is a bit differently written, but the point remains the same http://www.biblicalproportions.com/modules/ol_bible/King_James_Bible/2Samuel/1/2´7

[Melchi0r]

NOTE: I copied this from a website. www.religioustolerance.org Most of this isn't my personal voice but I think this shows some good points in the case of Jonathan and David's relationship.
1 Samuel 18:1-4
"...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself. From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)
In those days there wasn't underwear, so Jonathan would have been completely naked in front of David. This was really unusual back then unless their relationship were physical.

1 Samuel 18:20-21
"Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him'. Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law" (NIV)

In the King James Version, the end of Verse 21 reads:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV)

Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:

"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain."

In modern English, this might be written: "Today, you are son-in-law with two of my children" That would refer to both his son Jonathan and his daughter Michal.

So there it is. I believe that their relationship probably wasn't sexual, but I do think that David loved Jonathan in a way that was more than a friendship, and vice versa.

[redcar]

2 Samuel 1:26 "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."

That is not in any way shape or form homosexual. Its like brotherly love or a bond that is there. Not homosexual. Seriously the Church would not allow any sort of homosexuality into the bible, it would have been purged many many years ago.

[Sage]

Yar, redcar is right, they wouldn't have let something like that slip.

[MoveAlong]

If so and a church wouldn't of allowed anything of the sorts, how can there be a debate?

If nothing remotely gay is overlooked, how can we argue that the bible is not against homosexuality?

And how are we so sure that it's wrong? How come some religious people who believe the bible's words also believe that homosexuality is not wrong? :hmm:

[Sage]

Because many of the early humanists of the renaissance believed the Bible is there for people to choose which philosophies to believe- An aspect of the religion that is still going strong to this day.

[redcar]

In my opinion religion is open to interpretation. However the church, and when I say church I refer to the Catholic Church as I am a Catholic, would probably oppose my view. Although depends who you talk to.

Anyway as an institution they are opposed to homosexulaity. Sure look at Pope Benidect XVI he is a conservative old fucker. Excuse the language, but I really dislike him and not just his views on homosexuality. So I dont think this is a debate really because I know the church are smart and they wouldnt have in their main piece of literature something that opposes one of their believes because if it did it would be a total contradiction to what they stand for. And they are smarter than that.

[Hyper]

The bible is just written so that you can mis-understand it so to speak :P, as I can't know for sure that my understanding is the right one..

[Melchi0r]

The fact that some parts of the Bible condemn homosexuality and then you have a story like David and Jonathan that can be interpreted as a gay love story just confuses me. How could the Church let their Holy Book contradict itself? And I doubt that the early Church would agree with the philosophy of choosing for yourself which ideas from religion are true or not; they'd enforce believing in every word of the Bible.

[Ironic Infidel In England]

The bible contradicts itself over the place... if says to go and slay your enemies, and also cmmands you not to kill.

[Melchi0r]

The bible contradicts itself over the place... if says to go and slay your enemies, and also cmmands you not to kill.

In that case you should be able to choose for yourself what you believe on certain matters like homosexuality, depending on how you interpret David and Jonathan's relationship.

EDIT: Jonathan stripping completely naked in front of David might not necessarily imply a sexual relationship. Famous Bible characters go nude non-sexually in the Bible other than Adam & Eve.

[Gumleaf]

The bible contradicts itself over the place... if says to go and slay your enemies, and also cmmands you not to kill.

sin began when adam and eve ate from the tree. God says not to kill your enemies however because of the sinful nature of humans since adam and eve first sinned, there was bound to be fighting and killing. the bible is more then a list of insturctions of what God says we can and can't do, but a story of creation, and the lives of Jesus and his followers and enemies.

[redcar]

The bible contradicts itself over the place... if says to go and slay your enemies, and also cmmands you not to kill.
The reason for that is because it was not written by one person but by a whole heap of people over time. There is bound to be discrepencies.

[Gumleaf]

The reason for that is because it was not written by one person but by a whole heap of people over time. There is bound to be discrepencies.


thats a very good point alex, and the same point i was trying to make, although poorly, in the post before. the last thing i will say on this matter is that God designed us to have romantic/sexual relationships with people of the oppostie sex. and even if the story of johnathon and david is interpreted as a homosexual relationship, then it should be assumed that david and johnathon have sinned by engaging in these actions. but i stand by what i have said from the start and that johnathon and david were very good friends and loved eachother in brotherly/friendly love, and not romantic love. and i don't think anything that anyone else could say would change my mind.

[MoveAlong]

Well I really do think it's nice that you all can have such strong faith in something and truely trust something, and I respect that :D

Tho I know that no faith is right for me and I rather not have the Bible or any other faith to be part of my life or think about. I won't ever understand the Bible in any way or how it works and what it says.

[Antares]

So is the question did the bible say being homosexual okay or normal or kinda like a "shit happens" kinda thing?

[xTheLordsServantx]

The bible is just written so that you can mis-understand it so to speak :P, as I can't know for sure that my understanding is the right one..

well, while your viewpoint holds much validity, I see the Bible as written so that it can be UNDERSTOOD in several different ways. That is the awesomeness of religion: Its based on FAITH. Yes, the Bible is a book that should be used to guide our lives, but its how you interperet it and use it in your life that truly makes it the symbol of Christianity. The way I see it is if you have Faith, the Bible plays its role in every decision of your life. In my opinion, I think this is all part of God's big plan to try to get us to see things a different way and to explore faith.

About the whole gay thing...I don't think the Bible actually condemns the act of gay sexual relations, but rather the emotional bond that a true homosexual person has. Is it a sin? Yes, but that is NOTHING to be ashamed of. We are all God's creations and He loves all of us equally, no matter how much we sin or even if we dont believe in Him. He has a plan for our lives. So many Christians condemn gays as people who will surely go to Hell. But I'll tell you all something, us Christians sin just as much as anyone who is not Christian. And chances are many "Christians" go to hell. The Bible is supposed to be used as a tool to guide our lives, not an item that should be used to condemn people.

LOVE AND KINDNESS are what God's about, not hatred and condemnation!

God Bless you all

David

[kolte]

I havent changed a bit.

A quote from my FAVE. writer, Karl Marx:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress. Religion i s the sign of the opressed creature the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for there real happiness. The demand to give up the illusions about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions. The criticism of religion is therefore in embryo the criticism of the vale of woe, the halo of which is religion."

And a quote by R. C. Zaehner

"Religion it is true is an illusion. But a necessary one created by the mind of man to compensate for his own misery, god being simply a superman in the fantastic reality of heaven and a mirror image of man. God then is simply the idealisation of man, man as he will be once he is liberated from his slavery to an unjust society. The solution then is not to do away with religion but to do away with the social conditions which make it necessary."

To end I would just like to add, in relation to the post, that I think that I believe in mankind, to the extent that I can, and I think that one day mankind will drop the viel of religion and finally see the light illuminated on the face of the cave wall. Being homosexual is not a choice, and its foolish to even consider it. They should have every right to be and do what every other man and woman has the right to be and do. Using religious morality to deny another person equality, is fucked up, and I don't think anyone should stand for it. I say do it anyway, and make it so.

[MoveAlong]

To TheLordsServant:
You might (or others might) think that it's wrong, but I don't and that's what matters. 'Course I don't have any church to impress or deal with, so I don't have many issues with that.

[xTheLordsServantx]

I havent changed a bit.

A quote from my FAVE. writer, Karl Marx:

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress. Religion i s the sign of the opressed creature the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for there real happiness. The demand to give up the illusions about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions. The criticism of religion is therefore in embryo the criticism of the vale of woe, the halo of which is religion."

And a quote by R. C. Zaehner

"Religion it is true is an illusion. But a necessary one created by the mind of man to compensate for his own misery, god being simply a superman in the fantastic reality of heaven and a mirror image of man. God then is simply the idealisation of man, man as he will be once he is liberated from his slavery to an unjust society. The solution then is not to do away with religion but to do away with the social conditions which make it necessary."

To end I would just like to add, in relation to the post, that I think that I believe in mankind, to the extent that I can, and I think that one day mankind will drop the viel of religion and finally see the light illuminated on the face of the cave wall. Being homosexual is not a choice, and its foolish to even consider it. They should have every right to be and do what every other man and woman has the right to be and do. Using religious morality to deny another person equality, is fucked up, and I don't think anyone should stand for it. I say do it anyway, and make it so.

It again saddens me to see that you are not keeping an open mind, but I'm not going to start an argument with you because I am more mature than that. I know you disagree with my views, as you always have, but I dont see a need to use vulgar language to portray your point. I understand that you see Homosexuality as something of a burden forced upon people at birth. Religion does not deny anyone equality. Its foundations are faith and equality. So I think you don't see the big picture but are confined to this "RELIGION IS EVIL" point of view that you unconsciously force onto yourself. Religion isn't the force that denies people equality, it is the people of those religions that do not have the understanding and wisdom to see the big picture. So...I'm sorry that my brothers and sisters in Christ have denied you rights due to the fact of your sexual orientation, but that is no reason to backlash again a religion that preaches kindness, understanding, and fairness.

God Bless you Kolte

[kolte]

It again saddens me to see that you are not keeping an open mind, but I'm not going to start an argument with you because I am more mature than that. I know you disagree with my views, as you always have, but I dont see a need to use vulgar language to portray your point. I understand that you see Homosexuality as something of a burden forced upon people at birth. Religion does not deny anyone equality. Its foundations are faith and equality. So I think you don't see the big picture but are confined to this "RELIGION IS EVIL" point of view that you unconsciously force onto yourself. Religion isn't the force that denies people equality, it is the people of those religions that do not have the understanding and wisdom to see the big picture. So...I'm sorry that my brothers and sisters in Christ have denied you rights due to the fact of your sexual orientation, but that is no reason to backlash again a religion that preaches kindness, understanding, and fairness.

God Bless you Kolte

I'm sorry if my vulgarity has offended you. Not that I don't mean to offend people, its one of my more favorite pastimes, seeing as how the more inflamed a person is, the more they will debate with me. But if you really don't like it, then I suppose I can make this one little exception.

And don't think you've got me pinned. I don't despise religion quite like I used to, so in that since, I have changed. I consider the following quote to be a summary of my core belief in regards to religion:

“The solution then is not to do away with religion but to do away with the social conditions which make it necessary."

I've learned that its undesirable to persecute religion in a capitalist society, both because it has lost its hold on the working class and because though an illusion, it is yet a source of comfort to the distressed.

“Persecution is the best means of promoting undesirable convictions! This much is sure: the only service that can be rendered to God today is to declare atheism a compulsory article of faith.”
- On Religion, p. 142, Fredrick Engels

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

Christianity is so hypercritcal, In the bible it talks about women being unequal to men in the eyes of God, but in modern times they are considered by most Christians to be equal so why are not homosexual people considered equals in the modern day by the church?

[serial-thrilla]

because the bible says that it is wrong on numerous occasions. i think thats enough for christians to not accept it.

[xTheLordsServantx]

Christianity is so hypercritcal, In the bible it talks about women being unequal to men in the eyes of God, but in modern times they are considered by most Christians to be equal so why are not homosexual people considered equals in the modern day by the church?

first off, the bible brings up inequalities that existed thousands of years ago that mostly related to the old order of the Old Testament. After Jesus's death until modern-day, we have mainly adapted the laws of the New Testament aka Laws that Jesus puts emphesis on, well at least thats how it is in Protestantism...

[Melchi0r]

I've learned that its undesirable to persecute religion in a capitalist society, both because it has lost its hold on the working class and because though an illusion, it is yet a source of comfort to the distressed.

This reminds me of a discussion we got into in English class. Last year we focused on the literary viewpoints of Freud, Darwin, and Marx and as we got into a Marxist viewpoint of To Kill A Mockingbird, we ended up debating whether Marx would say that Christianity is too powerful in the south U.S. Eventually we agreed on "yes."

During the debate, my English teacher voiced his Marxist opinion that it would be oppressive if religion was forced upon the people, but also that it would be oppresive if religion was stolen from the people as well. My teacher said "Religion shouldn't be something in the legislature- it should stay as something you do on Sunday mornings."

I'd also like to note how far off track we've gotten. Didn't this debate begin as whether Jonathan and David's relationship were a homosexual romance or not? Not that I care, I like the debate as it is now.

[kolte]

Meh, the title says the bible gay debate, lets just stay there, debates move around on the same topic. n.n

Unless one of the moderators disagree.

The big picture here is that it is discrimination to deny any human being their rights. And I strongly believe in our constitutional rights. Permiting civil unions or religious unions to all people regardless of race, gender, religion, yadayadayada. Lets be fair here. Its not like were legalizing rape here.

[xTheLordsServantx]

Meh, the title says the bible gay debate, lets just stay there, debates move around on the same topic. n.n

Unless one of the moderators disagree.

The big picture here is that it is discrimination to deny any human being their rights. And I strongly believe in our constitutional rights. Permiting civil unions or religious unions to all people regardless of race, gender, religion, yadayadayada. Lets be fair here. Its not like were legalizing rape here.

I couldnt say it better myself!

[kolte]

This is a little off-topic, but this is about homosexuality, here goes:

This is what I have to say to everyone who thinks that homosexuals are bad people, or that being gay is a choice (pretty simple if you ask me):

Think about it. When someone tells you that they are gay, do they say "hi, my name is John and I woke up today and said 'wow, it'd be a great day to be gay.'" No, that person would tell you, 'hi, I'm John, and I am gay.'

Pretty simple perspective. Homophobes are not only a reason that so many GBLTQ people spend years in denial, but that so many people are afraid to accept who they are and be themselves. Grr.

This is what I tell people,

"Its not a choice. I didnt wake up one day and say, Hmmmm, which one do I want to go for, because I can go either way right? I could have sex with men or have sex with women.....hmmm, I guess i choose men, but meh, I can allways go back"

No, I just one day reolized....my god, I'm gay! I was as shocked as any one else.

Thats why I don't see why they shouldnt have all the rights strights have.

[Melchi0r]

The thing that's even worse than those kind of people are the people who don't think that homosexuality is a choice, but they act as if it's a birth defect or disease. I am not sure if you guys have ever met someone like that, but they make me sick.

[Ironic Infidel In England]

I really don't like that. If I find someone like that, they get a smack upside the head. No matter what the result will be for me. It'll probably get me stabbed eventually, but *shrug*.

[kolte]

You know, honestly, being gay, I hate it, I hate it more then anything. I dispise myself for it. not becasue its immoral, I just really don't want to be gay. I don't think I ever will let into it. I have before, a few times, here or there, but It allways leaves me feeling disgusted. So, yeah, I'm gay, I admit, but I'm stright, because I'm sickend by it.

[Ethannnnnn]

just because the bible says its wrond doesnt mean its wrong if people are gay,than there gay theres nothing wrong with them there not evil there just people with a diffrent sexual orientation

[xTheLordsServantx]

This is what I tell people,

"Its not a choice. I didnt wake up one day and say, Hmmmm, which one do I want to go for, because I can go either way right? I could have sex with men or have sex with women.....hmmm, I guess i choose men, but meh, I can allways go back"

No, I just one day reolized....my god, I'm gay! I was as shocked as any one else.

Thats why I don't see why they shouldnt have all the rights strights have.

Yes, I agree. While some Christians condemn homosexuals because they think that they are "sinners" I don't think it is fair. ALL of us sin, and the thing to do it turn to God for forgiveness. I may be repeating myself when I say this, but Christianity is about Fairness and Kindness, not condemning people because of how they are or what they do. So, Im sorry that sooooooo many Christians have been mean to you because of your sexual orientation.

God Bless

[Melchi0r]

"Mean" is a word used for childish bullying. Don't you think that murdering someone is a litttle more cruel than just "meanness"?

No offense, but Christianity isn't the solution to the problem of homophobia. How can asking God for forgiveness stop the persecution of homosexuals?

My idea (sort of wishful, though) is for sex ed. to be expanded to sexuality and include sexual discovery in the curriculum. Teach about bisexuality and homosexuality and how it's natural and undeserving of hatred. Shatter some anti-gay myths.

[MoveAlong]

My idea (sort of wishful, though) is for sex ed. to be expanded to sexuality and include sexual discovery in the curriculum. Teach about bisexuality and homosexuality and how it's natural and undeserving of hatred. Shatter some anti-gay myths.

Yes.

[Ironic Infidel In England]

My idea (sort of wishful, though) is for sex ed. to be expanded to sexuality and include sexual discovery in the curriculum. Teach about bisexuality and homosexuality and how it's natural and undeserving of hatred. Shatter some anti-gay myths.

That's a brilliant idea! *bustles off to write letter*

[theonetheycallbob]

Christianity is so hypercritcal, In the bible it talks about women being unequal to men in the eyes of God, but in modern times they are considered by most Christians to be equal so why are not homosexual people considered equals in the modern day by the church?

NO WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT WOMEN ARE NOT EQUAL TO MEN IN THE EYES OF GOD. If you are refering to the bible counting people by number of men, and women not being treat as fairly as men, that is not god, that is just the way society was ran back then.

In the bible it does, however, specifically mention homosexuality as a sin, so we do not support it. However, in the church that i attend, gays would be welcome to come and worship with us. We are open to everyone. Funny how its bad to steotype gays, races, and others, but society widely excepts steotyping christans...

[rEpReSsIoN.?]

NO WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT WOMEN ARE NOT EQUAL TO MEN IN THE EYES OF GOD. If you are refering to the bible counting people by number of men, and women not being treat as fairly as men, that is not god, that is just the way society was ran back then.

In the bible it does, however, specifically mention homosexuality as a sin, so we do not support it. However, in the church that i attend, gays would be welcome to come and worship with us. We are open to everyone. Funny how its bad to steotype gays, races, and others, but society widely excepts steotyping christans...

lets start:

"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..."
..........Deuteronomy 22:20

"For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does..."
..........1 Corinthians 7:4

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
..........1 Corinthians 14:34

"For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man."
..........1 Corinthians, 11:8

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
..........Timothy 2:11

so why cannot gay/bi/lesbian people be equal like women in the modern church

[0=]

My idea (sort of wishful, though) is for sex ed. to be expanded to sexuality and include sexual discovery in the curriculum. Teach about bisexuality and homosexuality and how it's natural and undeserving of hatred. Shatter some anti-gay myths.


Fat chance. People are against teaching about condoms rather than abstinence; that's never going to happen.

[Melchi0r]

Then we have to eliminate Christian viewpoints in sex ed. Schools need to realize that by following complaining parents' protests and only teaching abstinence, teenagers are still out there getting laid and contracting diseases and getting pregnant. Why do we mainly see protests for Christian viewpoints, and none against them? I'm not saying Christianity needs to be eliminated, it just can't control what's taught in schools.

[NintendoFanboy]

Alright... I'll state what I believe. I am a baptist christian, I go to church regularly, all that jazz. I know it states in the Bible, and I quote:

Leviticus 18:22
“Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.


Leviticus 20:13
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.


1 Corinthians 6:9
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,


1 Timothy 1:10
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, [ Or kidnappers.] liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching

There you go, 4 instances that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. But I will admit, I am gay! God loves us each equally, and I know for sure I'm going to heaven. As with all christians, those that truly believe, that is. It's okay, though the bible says it's wrong.