Concerning sex change and sexuality change

[Music Lover]

Some questions I've been pondering...

Why does it seem like in today's culture it is acceptable for someone to change sex but it is not acceptable to change sexuality?
As in, if someone is male, but their identity is female, why is the solution thought to be a sex change? Why not address the identity, because identity develops over time, so it can also be changed. Actually, everyone's identity will change over time, even if only slightly, so why not go through changing something environment and upbringing have affected instead of going through the effort to change something natural, i.e. your gender?
And also, if someone is homosexual and they don't like that, why do people dissuade them from going through the process of changing their sexuality? They say it's impossible, although there are many ex-gays indicating it is not. Why do people say to homosexuals who want to become heterosexuals that they cannot? Why do people tell ex-gays that they are still gay and that their heterosexual feelings are an illusion, even when they know next to nothing about an ex-gay's thoughts?
Why is the society today ever-ready to promote changing the natural, but strongly dissuades changing something that has been influenced by society?

[trooneh]

Some questions I've been pondering...

Why does it seem like in today's culture it is acceptable for someone to change sex but it is not acceptable to change sexuality?
As in, if someone is male, but their identity is female, why is the solution thought to be a sex change? Why not address the identity, because identity develops over time, so it can also be changed. Actually, everyone's identity will change over time, even if only slightly, so why not go through changing something environment and upbringing have affected instead of going through the effort to change something natural, i.e. your gender?
The idea of changing your sex is based on biological differences in your brain that are not treatable by saying "Okay, I'm not going to be like this anymore." Trying to force someone into being something they don't want to be is not the way to go.
And also, if someone is homosexual and they don't like that, why do people dissuade them from going through the process of changing their sexuality? They say it's impossible, although there are many ex-gays indicating it is not. Why do people say to homosexuals who want to become heterosexuals that they cannot? Why do people tell ex-gays that they are still gay and that their heterosexual feelings are an illusion, even when they know next to nothing about an ex-gay's thoughts?
Why is the society today ever-ready to promote changing the natural, but strongly dissuades changing something that has been influenced by society?

The problem is that most "ex-gays" are in fact celibate. They are not active sexually with either sex. I know of no examples off the top of my head of a person going from homosexual to heterosexual. Perhaps you can develop an emotional attraction to a member of the opposite sex, but I don't think you can become sexually attracted to the opposite sex and have a normal, healthy sex life when you are homosexual. Sexualities might seem to fluctuate in puberty when hormones are going wild, but once the hormones have settled, your sexuality is not likely to change. You are who you are.

[kenoloor]

First, some language just to keep things clear throughout this post and any that I may post later.

SRS - "Sex change" is now an outdated way to identify a surgery which reassigns an individual with the genitalia they feel is more consistent with that of their identity. There are a couple different terms to describe this, however, for this post, and all those following it, I will be referring to it as Sex Reassignment Surgery, or SRS.
"Transition" - refers to a period of time where an individual may (or may not) undergo things such as hormone therapy, laser hair removal, voice training, therapy, legal name change and other things of that nature so that the individual is seen by others as the gender they identify with psychologically.
FTM (Female-To-Male) - an individual who was born with a vagina, however identifies as masculine.
MTF (Male-To-Female) - an individual who was born with a penis, however identifies as feminine.
Sex - what your genitalia determines. e.g. if you have a penis, your sex is male; if you have a vagina, your sex is female.
Gender - how you psychologically identify on the spectrum between extreme masculinity and extreme femininity. Contrary to your sex, your gender is not concrete in any way.
Gender-variant/gender-nonconforming - individuals who do not fit within the gender confines that society has placed.
Transgender - someone whose identity is not aligned with their anatomy, e.g. has a penis and doesn't identify as masculine, or has a vagina and doesn't identify as feminine.
Cisgender - someone whose identity is in alignment with their anatomy, e.g. has a penis and identifies as masculine, or has a vagina and identifies as female.

Why does it seem like in today's culture it is acceptable for someone to change sex but it is not acceptable to change sexuality?

SRS is something that is done to individuals who have most likely gone through many years of transitioning. After such an extended period of transitioning, it is extremely unlikely to come across a case where the individual suddenly "changes their mind" after SRS. Being transgender, myself, I have done considerable research on this, and I have only come across one particular case where someone realized that he, in fact, was not trans.

Also, SRS is hardly "acceptable" in "today's culture." The gender-nonconforming community still faces more discrimination than almost any other minority group, especially in America.

As in, if someone is male, but their identity is female, why is the solution thought to be a sex change? Why not address the identity, because identity develops over time, so it can also be changed.

I'm going to assume that you were born physically male (with a penis) and identify as masculine. If that is indeed correct, let me ask you this: has your identification as a male changed since you were born? Have you ever questioned that you were psychologically male?

It's also important to remember that just because someone is transgender does not mean they are going to have SRS; there is a large population of transgender folk who do not opt for SRS at all. Transitioning is a highly individual process.

Actually, everyone's identity will change over time, even if only slightly, so why not go through changing something environment and upbringing have affected instead of going through the effort to change something natural, i.e. your gender?

Your gender (refer to top of this post for definitions) is not something that will change. It may evolve so that you express yourself in different ways. Obviously my 75-year-old grandmother doesn't wear the same clothes that she wore when she was 16, or when she was 25. However, her strong identification with femininity has not changed over those many years.

And also, if someone is homosexual and they don't like that, why do people dissuade them from going through the process of changing their sexuality? They say it's impossible, although there are many ex-gays indicating it is not. Why do people say to homosexuals who want to become heterosexuals that they cannot? Why do people tell ex-gays that they are still gay and that their heterosexual feelings are an illusion, even when they know next to nothing about an ex-gay's sexuality?

This (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.aspx) will answer that.

Why is the society today ever-ready to promote changing the natural, but strongly dissuades changing something that has been influenced by society?You're implying that identities are unnatural. And by saying this you're not only attempting to invalidate the identites of everyone else, but yours as well. It's important to keep in mind that being cisgender or being heterosexual is an identity as well.

[Music Lover]

Trying to force someone into being something they don't want to be is not the way to go.
I agree. However, what about if people undergo it voluntarily?

The problem is that most "ex-gays" are in fact celibate. They are not active sexually with either sex. I know of no examples off the top of my head of a person going from homosexual to heterosexual. Perhaps you can develop an emotional attraction to a member of the opposite sex, but I don't think you can become sexually attracted to the opposite sex and have a normal, healthy sex life when you are homosexual. Sexualities might seem to fluctuate in puberty when hormones are going wild, but once the hormones have settled, your sexuality is not likely to change. You are who you are.
Here (http://thetruthsetsyoufree.wordpress.com/can-you-change-your-sexual-orientation/) is quite a long article featuring statistics: about 50% of homosexuals change into heterosexuals:
"...2 percent of the heterosexual population said they had once been exclusively homosexual. Independently, Colorado researchers Cameron et al.[5] in 1985, reported an identical figure. Both these studies also put the incidence of homosexuality at 4 percent."
Another quote, commenting on whether sexuality is fixed or not:
"Commenting particularly on the work of Kinsey et al., Texas researcher Ross says, “Given these data … sexuality can thus be seen as a fluctuating variable rather than as a constant.”[3]"

I'm going to assume that you were born physically male (with a penis) and identify as masculine. If that is indeed correct, let me ask you this: has your identification as a male changed since you were born? Have you ever questioned that you were psychologically male?
You assumed right. And the answers are: no and no.

Your gender (refer to top of this post for definitions) is not something that will change.
Contrary to your sex, your gender is not concrete in any way.
Please clear up this contradiction, will you? :)

This (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/just-the-facts.aspx ) will answer that.
I read it. Basically it says: aggressive behaviour towards homosexuals and forcing them to change therapy does not produce anything good. Also, the methods of therapy are criticised.
I agree with them on these, but what if:
1. All groups of humans are treated exually, with no pressure from authorities based on sexuality. 2. Nobody is forced into sexuality change therapy. 3. Those who go voluntarily are treated not with forcefeeding information, but with advice based off scientific research on the causes of homosexuality.
I don't see anything wrong with these premises. Comment if you see any. Here (http://thetruthsetsyoufree.wordpress.com/can-you-change-your-sexual-orientation/) is some referenced text on the subject. It reports that sexuality changes surprisingly much, among other things.

You're implying that identities are unnatural. And by saying this you're not only attempting to invalidate the identites of everyone else, but yours as well. It's important to keep in mind that being cisgender or being heteresexual is an identity as well.
Ok, I apparently worded that a bit thoughtlessly. I meant that why are people more willing to accept change of something that ill not change naturally and unwilling to accept change of something that fluctuates naturally in the course of life? Figure out which one is sex and which is sexuality :rolleyes:

[kenoloor]

You assumed right. And the answers are: no and no.

So your gender identity hasn't changed over time. I really don't even need to continue with this post because you basically just proved my entire argument to be true. But I'm not going to turn down a [-]good[/-] mediocre debate.

Please clear up this contradiction, will you? :)

By "concrete," I mean the system itself is not as set in stone as the system of sex. Sex is a binary system (you either have a penis, or you have a vagina; the intersex population would be all up in my vag about that, but that's essentially how it is). However, there are many more identites regarding gender, because it's all on a spectrum. Sex is very much black & white; gender is almost entirely grey.

I read it. Basically it says: aggressive behaviour towards homosexuals and forcing them to change therapy does not produce anything good. Also, the methods of therapy are criticised. I agree with them on these, but what if: 1. All groups of humans are treated exually, with no pressure from authorities based on sexuality.

Words like "all," "every," etc. are almost always a poor choice of words. Essentially, the basis of "therapy" to change one's sexual orientation is one of pressure. See further down...

2. Nobody is forced into sexuality change therapy.

Again, with the extreme words. I daresay the majority of individuals who end up in this "therapy" are pressured into it, either by siblings, parents, friends. I have friends whose parents forced them into "therapy" in an attempt to change their sexual orientation, and all that happened was the kids either a) ran away from home, and lived homeless for a long period of time, b) began self-medicating with self-harm, drugs, alcohol, etc. or c) killed themselves. Am I saying that will be the case with everyone? No. There are many who go through that process and come out of it as "heterosexual." However, the problem is that personal testimony is not reliable evidence. Oh, and neither are those sources you posted; they're an extremely biased Christian organization and that's not a good place to draw your pathetic attempts at "evidence."

3. Those who go voluntarily are treated not with forcefeeding information, but with advice based off scientific research on the causes of homosexuality. I don't see anything wrong with these premises. Comment if you see any. Here (http://thetruthsetsyoufree.wordpress.com/can-you-change-your-sexual-orientation/) is some referenced text on the subject. It reports that sexuality changes surprisingly much, among other things.

I see a gaping hole in this argument, almost as large as an ex-con's asshole after 10 years in prison . Your source, as I mentioned before, is not a credible one. And until you can produce a credible source to support these claims, I have no reason to believe that they are true.

Here's a quote from a legitimately reliable source: "To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons." - Source ( http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx)

Ok, I apparently worded that a bit thoughtlessly. I meant that why are people more willing to accept change of something that ill not change naturally and unwilling to accept change of something that fluctuates naturally in the course of life? Figure out which one is sex and which is sexuality :rolleyes:

Fluctuation =/= change, per se. I already explained the difference when referring to my grandmother and her slight changes in expression, but no significant changes in her identity, which, by the way, you failed to respond to, along with some of the other points I made.

What difference does any of this make to you? Are you being hurt by the transgender community? Or the homosexual community? It's not like they are contagious diseases.

[trooneh]

Here (http://thetruthsetsyoufree.wordpress.com/can-you-change-your-sexual-orientation/) is quite a long article featuring statistics: about 50% of homosexuals change into heterosexuals:
"...2 percent of the heterosexual population said they had once been exclusively homosexual. Independently, Colorado researchers Cameron et al.[5] in 1985, reported an identical figure. Both these studies also put the incidence of homosexuality at 4 percent."
Another quote, commenting on whether sexuality is fixed or not:
"Commenting particularly on the work of Kinsey et al., Texas researcher Ross says, “Given these data … sexuality can thus be seen as a fluctuating variable rather than as a constant.”[3]"


Homosexuality was in the DSM until relatively recently, these studies are thirty years old. Recently, the American Psychological Association launched a task force on this.

They found the following:
serious methodological problems in this area of research, such that only a few studies met the minimal standards for evaluating whether psychological treatments, such as efforts to change sexual orientation, are effective
There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative therapy' as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation, nor is it included in the APA's Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders. More importantly, altering sexual orientation is not an appropriate goal of psychiatric treatment. Some may seek conversion to heterosexuality because of the difficulties that they encounter as a member of a stigmatized group. Clinical experience indicates that those who have integrated their sexual orientation into a positive sense of self function at a healthier psychological level than those who have not. 'Gay affirmative psychotherapy' may be helpful in the coming out process, fostering a positive psychological development and overcoming the effects of stigmatization. A position statement adopted by the Board in December 1998 said: The American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as 'reparative' or 'conversion' therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder, or based upon a prior assumption that the patient should change his/ her homosexual orientation.

There is a lot more to be read here (http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_changing.html) and here (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf), each much more peer reviewed and recent studies than the ones put forward by you.

To summarize, modern psychology regards changing sexual orientation as a myth, and nothing more.

[Genghis Khan]

You know, people call me ignorant but I just tell them 'hey, should've stayed a boy or a girl'. So listen kids, changing your body parts is not normal, but if you ever need a turtle shell well, that's really stupid why would you even want that, go to your room.

[trooneh]

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2009/01/l106470-4.jpg
It looks so natural, though, Rawal.

[Syvelocin]

I find it very hard to believe that someone could go from being a "raging homosexual" to liking fucking girls/being fucked by a man. I don't know. I just can't ever imagine wanting a penis inside me ever again. Regardless of whether I find a man attractive or not. My past experience with males aside.

While I would never have a sex change regardless of my feelings, I think people have a right to undergo that if they wish to. I personally do not believe you have a mental gender, I think you're both masculine and feminine and neither of the the two, at the same time. Physically of course it may be different, but I don't think that should have anything to do with your personality. I like having female parts but I think my gender is neutral. But if a girl wants a dick or a guy wants to chop his off, I don't give a shit, everyone deserves happiness.

You can't exactly consciously change that though. It's like saying "Okay, I'm going to be a genius" when you don't have the capacity for such knowledge, or "I'm going to shut the fuck up" when you're a hyperactive extrovert. Nothing works like that.

You can't truly become something you're not. That applies to both concepts too. Sure, there are many homosexuals who would rather be hetero to make things easier. But you simply can't do that. Their feelings may change and it may be different later, but is by no means a conscious choice. Trying to change feelings you currently have and having your feelings change over time are two radically different concepts.

Some questions I've been pondering...
Why is the society today ever-ready to promote changing the natural, but strongly dissuades changing something that has been influenced by society?

Uh... what?

In the case of sexuality, it's all natural. In the case of both sex and sexuality, neither is influenced directly by anything but the person it involves. Environment can have a slight effect, but not so much that it makes the difference between someone being heterosexual and someone being homosexual.