The Fall of Man

[screamtobeheard]

I want to preface this by saying that I am not religious at all, but I have studied theology for the past 4 years of my life, and the Catholic religion for 9 years previous to that.

In the Bible, the Fall of man is due to the fact that Eve, the first woman, ate a piece of fruit from the tree of knowledge. When she eats this fruit, she gives some to Adam, and "the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves" (Genesis 3:7). When God saw what they had done, he banished them from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3: 23).

Assuming that Adam and Eve had never eaten from the tree of knowledge, humans would still be living in the Garden of Eden, and we would not have the knowledge we have today. This means no clothing (no fashion), no technology (housing, computers, roads, anything like that), and we would be in complete ignorance, not knowing what we would be missing. Naturally, we would probably lack some negative things as well, like conflict and war.

What I'm suggesting is that the Fall of Man, as told in the Old Testament of the New American Bible, was not (if it actually occurred), in fact, a negative event. Opinions?

[deadpie]

What I'm proposing is that the Fall of Man, as told in the Old Testament of the New American Bible, was not (if it actually occurred), in fact, a negative event. Opinions?

In following the Christian version; God knows everything. He knew what the snake would do, what Eve would do, what Adam would do. This makes God unjust. End of.

And your idea/opinion is an interesting one that I enjoy reading, but I believe in no higher power and so I cannot possibly agree with the explanation.

[screamtobeheard]

In following the Christian version; God knows everything. He knew what the snake would do, what Eve would do, what Adam would do. This makes God unjust. End of.

And your idea/opinion is an interesting one that I enjoy reading, but I believe in no higher power and so I cannot possibly agree with the explanation.

I'm inclined to agree, but according to Christians, God is just by giving us "free will," which is the ability to make our own decisions; therefore, he knew what they would do, but that would not affect his punishment or anything that he did. Just playing the devil's advocate.

As a disclaimer, this thread does not represent my opinion, as I am agnostic myself. I simply enjoy questioning different beliefs (and lacks thereof), so I was interested in other opinions. What makes it seem like I am stating an opinion is my poor word choice (and possibly the fact that I know way too much about the Roman Catholic religion).

[Gordo]

idk, our society puts a lot of resources into war, depression, homelessness, poverty etc. I'd like to have had the opportunity to see what would have happened with out original sin.

Maybe all the stuff you list that we'd live without are needed to deal with the consequences of the adam and eve choice. Like you, I like thinking about this stuff.

[kenoloor]

This is an interesting idea, however I must agree with Tim.

That being said, even if Adam and Eve didn't fuck shit up, who says nobody else would have? It's impossible to prove something that never happened. Old Testament God was pretty pissy, and I have no doubt that someone would have done something to irk him enough to give humans the boot.

[screamtobeheard]

Maybe all the stuff you list that we'd live without are needed to deal with the consequences of the adam and eve choice.
That's an interesting point.

That being said, even if Adam and Eve didn't fuck shit up, who says nobody else would have? It's impossible to prove something that never happened. Old Testament God was pretty pissy, and I have no doubt that someone would have done something to irk him enough to give humans the boot.
I always assumed that if they didn't do it, someone else would. And you're right. OTG (as I'm going to refer to him, for short) was into smiting people left and right, so someone probably would have pissed him off sooner or later.

[joshtheguitard]

There are several things you guys don't understand.

1st, God is the same through and through. He is no different now then he was in the Old Testament. Don't use the "God killed people left and right in the OT" defense, because in case you haven't noticed, people still die today. God does no wrong to anyone. To say such a thing would put you in a higher position. Why not? He is God. End of story.

2nd, yes, God does know everything. Yes, God did know the choices Adam and Eve would make. Does that make him unjust? No. Again, blaming human fallacy on God? Who made the mistake, man or God? God could have made mindless and hypnotized people that would obey any command he would give them. But God did not want to make mindless meat puppets, so he made us.

3rd...Does it really matter what would've happened if they didn't sin? The story does not go, "Adam & Eve lived long peaceful lives in the Garden of Eden and never disobeyed their God as long as they lived." That's not what happened, so we cannot assume that man would have lived just fine if they did not sin. Personally, I think that God allowed them to sin because it would make way for his plan to sin Christ to earth and save man from himself. You might say, "That seems so unnecessary, though. He could have made man perfect in every aspect so he didn't have to go through the trouble of saving man from hell." Yeah sure, he could have done that. Maybe he wants people to die to themselves and follow Christ. Maybe he wants man to willfully love him rather than make them. That's what I think about why God allowed it to be that way.

[Vonn]

There are several things you guys don't understand.

Please, teach us.

1st, God is the same through and through. He is no different now then he was in the Old Testament.

Oh, good. So He's still angry and jealous and a generally unlikable being.

Don't use the "God killed people left and right in the OT" defense, because in case you haven't noticed, people still die today.

Not by His direct orders. In the Bible God makes it absolutely clear when he wants someone (or lot of someones) dead. Men, women, children, animals, the whole she-bang, just because He can. Today, people die because of accidents, stupidity, natural disasters, illnesses, and old age.

God does no wrong to anyone. To say such a thing would put you in a higher position. Why not? He is God. End of story.

By human standards, he does way more wrongs than your average Joe, going against his own codes because it's fun to break your own rules. This is a world run by humans, for humans.

I'm just musing here, but wouldn't it be absolutely hysterical of God's existence were disproven? Imagine, humans came up with this big bad being of love and destruction to [-]control the masses[/-] believe in and hey, He never existed, remember? We made Him up thousands of years ago to shut people up and keep them in line! All those religious wars? The Bible? God Hates Everybody Except Me Because I'm a Special Snowflake for No Real Reason? Every human that has ever existed, dead and gone, buried in the ground, would flip such a tit in their graves that the earth would start to rotate in the opposite direction.

2nd, yes, God does know everything. Yes, God did know the choices Adam and Eve would make. Does that make him unjust? No. Again, blaming human fallacy on God? Who made the mistake, man or God?

"Oh, hey, this future event is really going to piss me off! I think I'll allow it to happen and get pissy over it anyways, because for all of my grand magnificence, I really have nothing better to do than push around these lesser beings. Ha, ha! It sure is good to be God."

He didn't tell them why, so of course they were tempted to eat from the tree.

God could have made mindless and hypnotized people that would obey any command he would give them. But God did not want to make mindless meat puppets, so he made us.

And now he gets to deal with the consequences of our actions, like any other parent. Eternal punishment solves nothing. There's no learning, there's no development, there's no growth. It's just a big fat brick wall, you had one chance, the end, thanks for playing, don't need you anymore. What's the point?

3rd...Does it really matter what would've happened if they didn't sin? The story does not go, "Adam & Eve lived long peaceful lives in the Garden of Eden and never disobeyed their God as long as they lived." That's not what happened, so we cannot assume that man would have lived just fine if they did not sin.

I think God would have gotten bored of it soon enough and kicked them out for some other trite reason. And of course man would have lived fine if they did not sin. No sin, no angry God, no need for Jesus, no damnation, no eternal punishment, no worries.

Personally, I think that God allowed them to sin because it would make way for his plan to sin Christ to earth and save man from himself.

"Oh, hey, I'm going to allow those two humans over there to sin and condemn the rest of their kind to a really shitty, practically inescapable fate full of frustration and doubt. No worries! I've got my Son right over here, ready to die for everybody else so they can all live happily ever after with Me. Actually, no. That's too easy. How can I make this harder?"

You might say, "That seems so unnecessary, though. He could have made man perfect in every aspect so he didn't have to go through the trouble of saving man from hell." Yeah sure, he could have done that.

Yeah, he could have. That sounds incredibly boring, but sending people to hell for trivial details is incredibly cruel.

Maybe he wants people to die to themselves and follow Christ. Maybe he wants man to willfully love him rather than make them. That's what I think about why God allowed it to be that way.

Please. This is blatant intimidation. Do as I say or go to hell (literally!). I suspect that more people believe in Him out of fear than love. It's more about eternal paradise than loving God or Jesus. It's more about going to heaven for selfish, cowardly reasons. Where's the love?

[Invincible]

Please, teach us.


Not by His direct orders. In the Bible God makes it absolutely clear when he wants someone (or lot of someones) dead. Men, women, children, animals, the whole she-bang, just because He can. Today, people die because of accidents, stupidity, natural disasters, illnesses, and old age.




Aren't there God-given consequences too?
Why have the lifespans of humans become shorter since OT?
All the diseases.
Sometimes things happen and no one can explain. Like how accidents started and happen.
Stupidity did not exist before the fall of man.

God clearly said in Revelations that there be tremblings in the earth. Shakings. These are all clear signs of the end times. He said there will be more - and look at the scientists' trends. They correlate.

Old Age comes from the natural cycle of life and death. Rejuvenation.

Illnesses have always exist. Notice how they've become more complex.

Maybe God isn't "saying" things that immediately become true, but heck, a lot happens and it's all his will.

There's something going on in the Middle East there. It's not political upheaval or the rattling of peace. There's going to be a revelation and that's gonna be where it's at. (Too much to explain right now...)

-----

This is an interesting idea, however I must agree with Tim.

That being said, even if Adam and Eve didn't fuck shit up, who says nobody else would have? It's impossible to prove something that never happened. Old Testament God was pretty pissy, and I have no doubt that someone would have done something to irk him enough to give humans the boot.


First of all, if you've studied, God said "I am". He isn't within the constraints of Time. He always exists. That's what allows him to be everywhere; to listen to everyone, observant of everything. Therefore it is false to say OT God was this and NT God was this. He hasn't changed, but the birth and death of Christ meant everything for the people.

Sure, someone else could have. God's just and always leaves everyone with decisions. The law tells you not to drink and drive. It doesn't explain why other than "You lose senses and have a much higher risk of crashing/dying/putting others in risk". We could argue that to day's end. Likewise we could for any other rule imposed by humans.

It's not about irking. God states clearly he rewards those that follow him and punishes those who rebuke him. He's a God of order and of justice, but God made a man and a woman, he made love and relationships. He made bondings, and wants a bond with everyone too. Surely a God of hatred and punishment would never have made two people which he planned to fall in love and reproduce. He'd have made a baby-making machine or something, or evolved them out of dog poop.

[screamtobeheard]

1st, God is the same through and through. He is no different now then he was in the Old Testament. Don't use the "God killed people left and right in the OT" defense, because in case you haven't noticed, people still die today. God does no wrong to anyone. To say such a thing would put you in a higher position. Why not? He is God. End of story.

First, this is not relevant to the topic of the Fall of Man. Next, it is perfectly acceptable to state that the Old Testament God killed people frequently. Yes, maybe people still die today, but the OT has a plethora (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people)of instances in which God personally killed people, and I believe this is what Bradi is referring to. (That's linked to an article with examples of personal killings by God. I understand that you're Christian, so I'll accept that you are offended by the statement that God has wronged people.

2nd, yes, God does know everything. Yes, God did know the choices Adam and Eve would make. Does that make him unjust? No. Again, blaming human fallacy on God? Who made the mistake, man or God? God could have made mindless and hypnotized people that would obey any command he would give them. But God did not want to make mindless meat puppets, so he made us.
No one is blaming human fallacy on God. In saying this, you are drawing false conclusion to which we were not alluding.

3rd...Does it really matter what would've happened if they didn't sin? The story does not go, "Adam & Eve lived long peaceful lives in the Garden of Eden and never disobeyed their God as long as they lived." That's not what happened, so we cannot assume that man would have lived just fine if they did not sin. Personally, I think that God allowed them to sin because it would make way for his plan to sin Christ to earth and save man from himself. You might say, "That seems so unnecessary, though. He could have made man perfect in every aspect so he didn't have to go through the trouble of saving man from hell." Yeah sure, he could have done that. Maybe he wants people to die to themselves and follow Christ. Maybe he wants man to willfully love him rather than make them. That's what I think about why God allowed it to be that way.
No, it does not matter in the slightest, but thinking about it never hurt anyone. Also, saying that "God allowed them to sin" contradicts the Christian idea of free will, which you seem to so strongly advocate.

And I'm saving this bit for last, because I need to emphasize it.
There are several things you guys don't understand.
The fact that you disagree with our perspectives and points of view do not mean that we do not understand what you are trying to tell us. Personally, I was baptized and confirmed Roman Catholic, and studied the Catholic faith for 9 years in private school. I'm still in Catholic school, where I now study general theology. I no longer believe in the Catholic faith, but I know and understand the beliefs of Catholics and most branches of Christianity because of my extensive studies. Disagreement does not always constitute ignorance.

Aren't there God-given consequences too?
Why have the lifespans of humans become shorter since OT?
All the diseases.
Sometimes things happen and no one can explain. Like how accidents started and happen.
Stupidity did not exist before the fall of man.

God clearly said in Revelations that there be tremblings in the earth. Shakings. These are all clear signs of the end times. He said there will be more - and look at the scientists' trends. They correlate.

Old Age comes from the natural cycle of life and death. Rejuvenation.

Illnesses have always exist. Notice how they've become more complex.

Maybe God isn't "saying" things that immediately become true, but heck, a lot happens and it's all his will.

The life span of humans has not been shortened since the times of the Bible. The Bible is a religious text not to be taken literally, but to be read for the sake of faith and morals, not fact; therefore, we must rely on...dare I say it...science and history to tell us about lifespans. And they have gotten longer, not shorter. Illnesses have gotten more complex due to technological advances. Their complexities are adaptations for survival, something that happens to all organisms when it is necessary. Stupidity is in the nature of humans. If it did not exist before the Fall, human nature did not exist before the fall.

And the last bit about everything being God's will...if everything was God's will, he would not need to punish anyone, and "free will" would not be given to humans.

[Vonn]

Aren't there God-given consequences too?
Why have the lifespans of humans become shorter since OT?
All the diseases.
Sometimes things happen and no one can explain. Like how accidents started and happen.
Stupidity did not exist before the fall of man.

Sure.
It's easy to write down a number for a character in a book.
Yes, diseases.
Accidents start because someone did something they were not supposed to without meaning to. Like tripping. Nobody plans to trip themselves.
Maybe the word didn't exist, but plenty of people from the Old Testament were completely out of their minds, God included.

God clearly said in Revelations that there be tremblings in the earth. Shakings. These are all clear signs of the end times. He said there will be more - and look at the scientists' trends. They correlate.

Okay. As soon as the sun changes color or whatever and it's not a natural eclipse, maybe I'll start to care.

Old Age comes from the natural cycle of life and death. Rejuvenation.

Yes.

Illnesses have always exist. Notice how they've become more complex.

Everything's become more complex. Evolution is like magic that way.

Maybe God isn't "saying" things that immediately become true, but heck, a lot happens and it's all his will.

Oh, so we're openly blaming God now? Excellent.

There's something going on in the Middle East there. It's not political upheaval or the rattling of peace. There's going to be a revelation and that's gonna be where it's at. (Too much to explain right now...)

I'll be sure to have some popcorn ready.

First of all, if you've studied, God said "I am". He isn't within the constraints of Time. He always exists. That's what allows him to be everywhere; to listen to everyone, observant of everything. Therefore it is false to say OT God was this and NT God was this. He hasn't changed, but the birth and death of Christ meant everything for the people.

The modern term for that is Mary-Sue. What a handy-dandy trick for controlling people 24/7. Maximum results with minimal effort.

Sure, someone else could have. God's just and always leaves everyone with decisions. The law tells you not to drink and drive. It doesn't explain why other than "You lose senses and have a much higher risk of crashing/dying/putting others in risk". We could argue that to day's end. Likewise we could for any other rule imposed by humans.

Uh, the explanation is, "If you drink and drive, people will most likely end up dead, yourself included." There's nothing to argue. Nobody wants to die (barring suicidal people, and even then they're not always 100% sure). It's a logical law, and people who think they're special and can get away with breaking it are morons.

There are plenty of other human-established laws that are definitely debatable. This is not one of them.

It's not about irking. God states clearly he rewards those that follow him and punishes those who rebuke him.

Then free will is quite the backhanded luxury. If he's just going to send us to hell for using our free will, oh, I don't know, freely, then he's quite the incompetent being. What a waste of soul.

He's a God of order and of justice, but God made a man and a woman, he made love and relationships. He made bondings, and wants a bond with everyone too.

Then don't fucking send people to hell on a whim. That tends to break even the strongest of bonds.

Surely a God of hatred and punishment would never have made two people which he planned to fall in love and reproduce.

Contradictions suck, am I right?

He'd have made a baby-making machine or something, or evolved them out of dog poop.

Living creatures are baby-making machines, and he "evolved" us from mud or something. Or maybe that's a different god.

[TheMatrix]

Before I refute anything, I would like to make an off-topic observation. You reference the "NT God". I [could] interpret that as:
http://inforains.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/microsoft-chairman-bill-gates-speaks-at-the.jpg
I thought I'd share. Moving on...

There are several things you guys don't understand.
Teach me, master. :pacifier:

1st, God is the same through and through.
Between 2 pages(the seperating title page between the 2 Testaments), he certainly changes quite a bit. :confused:


He is no different now then he was in the Old Testament. Don't use the "God killed people left and right in the OT" defense, because in case you haven't noticed, people still die today. God does no wrong to anyone. To say such a thing would put you in a higher position. Why not? He is God. End of story.
George Bush is no different than he was when he was first elected. Don't use "Bush started wars left and right during his term" defense, because in case you haven't noticed, they're still going on today*. Bush does no harm to anyone. To say such a thing would put you in a higher position. Why not? He is Bush. End of story.

* I realise that many of these wars have been ended by now, but I put that do prove a point.


2nd, yes, God does know everything. Yes, God did know the choices Adam and Eve would make. Does that make him unjust? No. Again, blaming human fallacy on God? Who made the mistake, man or God? God could have made mindless and hypnotized people that would obey any command he would give them. But God did not want to make mindless meat puppets, so he made us.
Well, he certainly acts like it! "I know that they will eat the apple. Should I tell them? Meh, free will."
And then, "Well, in retrospect, maybe I did want them to obey me after all. Endless punishment(even though I know that won't help; I know everything) for all!"


3rd...Does it really matter what would've happened if they didn't sin?
Yes.


The story does not go, "Adam & Eve lived long peaceful lives in the Garden of Eden and never disobeyed their God as long as they lived." That's not what happened, so we cannot assume that man would have lived just fine if they did not sin.
And yet we're all curious: what would have happened?


Personally, I think that God allowed them to sin because it would make way for his plan to sin Christ to earth and save man from himself. You might say, "That seems so unnecessary, though. He could have made man perfect in every aspect so he didn't have to go through the trouble of saving man from hell." Yeah sure, he could have done that. Maybe he wants people to die to themselves and follow Christ. Maybe he wants man to willfully love him rather than make them. That's what I think about why God allowed it to be that way.
You just contradicted yourself as well as the entire opposing side. See the "2nd" part of your quote ;)

[joshtheguitard]

Ok, no one is really thinking about my points. I feel like I have to say, "No...go back and read my post..." Plus, I've spent a good time arguing about related topics in the Anti-Theism thread already.

The fact that you disagree with our perspectives and points of view do not mean that we do not understand what you are trying to tell us.

I beg to differ. Read the previous posts in this thread! I see blatant misconceptions of Christian doctrine stated in these previous posts.

I think God would have gotten bored of it soon enough and kicked them out for some other trite reason.

Disobeying God is a trite reason for being punished? I see who I'm arguing with.

No one is blaming human fallacy on God.

See:
Oh, hey, I'm going to allow those two humans over there to sin and condemn the rest of their kind to a really shitty, practically inescapable fate full of frustration and doubt.
And
In following the Christian version; God knows everything. He knew what the snake would do, what Eve would do, what Adam would do. This makes God unjust. End of.
Here's another...
Old Testament God was pretty pissy, and I have no doubt that someone would have done something to irk him enough to give humans the boot.
Let's not forget:
He didn't tell them why, so of course they were tempted to eat from the tree.
Oh, those poor humans. God should've given them a reason to obey.

You guys are already seem more contradictory than God. :D

Today, people die because of accidents, stupidity, natural disasters, illnesses, and old age.
Funny, that seems to be a handful of OT causes. We don't have a commentary from God of why people die today. Not that we are entitled to know why.
And now he gets to deal with the consequences of our actions, like any other parent. Eternal punishment solves nothing. There's no learning, there's no development, there's no growth. It's just a big fat brick wall, you had one chance, the end, thanks for playing, don't need you anymore. What's the point?
If one denies God, they live in damnation without him. Completely separated from the presence of God. Of course there's no development, growth, or second chance. That's what this life is for! I've experienced it. I've been a Christian for only nearly three years now. Before then, all Scripture meant to me was nothing but a fictional historical literature book. That's growth if I've ever seen it.
Please. This is blatant intimidation. Do as I say or go to hell (literally!). I suspect that more people believe in Him out of fear than love. It's more about eternal paradise than loving God or Jesus.
I don't know what kind of Christians you know, but if they give you this impression, you don't know many sincere Christians. That is not how most Christians I know came to salvation- or me for that matter.
It's more about going to heaven for selfish, cowardly reasons. Where's the love?
If you know the Gospel and the whole story, there's not much I can say to change your perspective. He does love us, I assure you. That's just something that each individual, especially each Christian, has to realize.

[TheMatrix]

If you know the Gospel and the whole story, there's not much I can say to change your perspective. He does love us, I assure you. That's just something that each individual, especially each Christian, has to realize.
>Crusaders
>Conquistadors

[Vonn]

Disobeying God is a trite reason for being punished? I see who I'm arguing with.

The way I see it, we've been set up by God. It's all a sham, all for the lulz. He made humans, knew they were going to fail, and it's all our fault. Not just Adam and Eve, everyone. There is no logic or love there.

See:

When you know something unfortunate is going to happen and you do nothing about it, and other people get to suffer because of it, who's the villain there? Eternal punishment sows resentment, more often than not.

Oh, those poor humans. God should've given them a reason to obey.

Oh, spare me. If there's no reason to obey, that leaves more than enough room for error. God practically invited them to screw themselves over (which they didn't know they were doing, thanks to whom?). Do you know how often "Because I said so" actually works? Apparently, God's not any different.

You guys are already seem more contradictory than God. :D

Nope, you're just bad at this.

Funny, that seems to be a handful of OT causes. We don't have a commentary from God of why people die today. Not that we are entitled to know why.

Accidents? Maaaybe, but I'm leaning more towards no. Again, tripping.
Stupidity? People have free will. They make their own choices, and sometimes their choices don't make any sense at all. (If this is the work of God, hey, congratulations, He's a jerkwad and he's interfering with free will.)
Natural disasters? That's a definite maybe. So far Japan seems to be the target for whatever reason, and I don't think homosexuality is as big a deal over there as it is in the US. Must be His Holy Target Practice.
Illnesses? Also a maybe. Seems like the people that deserve it the least are subject to them the most.
Old age? It's the circle of life. Everything dies.

If one denies God, they live in damnation without him. Completely separated from the presence of God.

God sounds like one of those guys you hang around and bow down to and ass-kiss because it's better to be with him than against him. You know, out of fear. That's where I start having issues with Him. (Or at least those who claim to know Him. Tch.)

Of course there's no development, growth, or second chance. That's what this life is for!

Then what's the point? We're tossed onto earth with free will, we can do whatever we want, and when we die, we're only accepted into heaven if we've used our free will exactly the way God wants us to? That is the biggest, fattest, juiciest contradiction I have ever typed out. Wow, God needs a real hobby besides trolling his own creation.

I've experienced it. I've been a Christian for only nearly three years now. Before then, all Scripture meant to me was nothing but a fictional historical literature book. That's growth if I've ever seen it.

Thanks for sharing, but I don't really care what you've experienced. That's not good enough here.

I don't know what kind of Christians you know, but if they give you this impression, you don't know many sincere Christians. That is not how most Christians I know came to salvation- or me for that matter.

God is depicted as quite the unlikable character. There's no denying that. He's also portrayed as one of endless love and mercy. I don't know where that came from, but okay. Who could sincerely love Him, especially since He's been completely uninvolved with human affairs for over two thousand years? (When I say uninvolved, I mean factually. You know, like the Bible.)

And what the hell is a sincere Christian these days? There are way too many branches and exceptions and perspectives and interpretations, and all of you believe you're right.

If you know the Gospel and the whole story, there's not much I can say to change your perspective. He does love us, I assure you. That's just something that each individual, especially each Christian, has to realize.

I don't understand how anybody can look at the God written in their own holy text and think, "love." Props to you for seeing what some people can't.

[Amaryllis]

D'awww, missed me and my obnoxiously massive posts?
[-]I know you've all refuted the points but this is just too amusing for me to ignore.[/-]

God could have made mindless and hypnotized people that would obey any command he would give them.
So god instead made mental illnesses, physical ailment, negative feelings, suffering, pain, torment, men, women and children who would be unjustly treated and abused. Ask victims of child abuse, rape and torture, how many of them have prayed to this "god" and how many of them were saved by him?

If god gave humans living being freewill, why is it that many ask for his help when they're in dire need? Why do they give him thanks when good happens? When we all have freewill and all bad, as well as good, is a result of our own doing?


3rd...Does it really matter what would've happened if they didn't sin? The story does not go, "Adam & Eve lived long peaceful lives in the Garden of Eden and never disobeyed their God as long as they lived." That's not what happened, so we cannot assume that man would have lived just fine if they did not sin.
Woah, woah. What are you implying here? That no matter what we do, that no matter how "pure" or "good" we are, we are destined to suffer? Because that is "god's will"?

Personally, I think that God allowed them to sin because it would make way for his plan to sin Christ to earth and save man from himself.
So he -wanted- to sacrifice his child.

You know, people talk about god giving up his son like it's the most heart-warming, painful thing a man could but but hey, what made anyone think god had feelings?

Why have the lifespans of humans become shorter since OT?
o____o Where on earth do you get your information?

All the diseases.
.....

Oh sweet jesus. Please study the history of Asia, it'll take you a lifetime but I'm sure you'll find some info on diseases prior to the old testament in the nearest bookstore ^___^

While you're at it, read up on the history of Europe, yeah? Israel, as well. Don't miss out on Hittites.(The people of Anatolia, not the microwave.)

Stupidity did not exist before the fall of man.
Stupidity: A poor ability to understand or to profit from experience.

Well, I suppose that was their experience :)

Illnesses have always exist. Notice how they've become more complex.
Dude, where do you get your information? Do you have a medical degree? A Phd in Philosophy? Are you a major in history? A qualified psychiatrist? Have you studied biology down to the very atom of your being? Have you learned nothing of evolution? Do you pay attention in geography?

Maybe God isn't "saying" things that immediately become true, but heck, a lot happens and it's all his will.
If he knows what we will do, if he knows what will happen, if he sees it -all-, do we really have this "freewill"? Seeing as we're all part of "his plan"?

What is the point in him creeping on us all the time? Does he find amusement in the mistakes of his "children"?

First of all, if you've studied, God said "I am".
First of all, if you've studied rationality and logic...

It's not about irking. God states clearly he rewards those that follow him and punishes those who rebuke him.
Didn't you just say god wanted his people to choose rather than follow him blindly...? If you do not question his existence or even the righteousness of your "god", you are following blindly.

He's a God of order and of justice, but God made a man and a woman, he made love and relationships. He made bondings, and wants a bond with everyone too.
And who made hate? Anger? Fear? Prejudice? Lust?

Of course, that is not all "bad", per say. Biphasic emotions and traits are what make survivors. Anyhow, you place all the "good" with god, but he is "our creator" and if so, he did create all we feel.

Surely a God of hatred and punishment would never have made two people which he planned to fall in love and reproduce.
http://pichars.org/store/2751_original_aWOaV.

Are you implying that reproduction only occurs in acts of "love"? Have you not studied reproduction? "Love" is not a required ingredient for reproduction. In fact, if you studied reproduction in depth, it isn't "pretty" at all as much as... Well, reproduction. Flowers reproduce, frogs do, insects do. And I'm very sure flowers don't feel love for each other or even for themselves.

And have you not studied the biology of "love"? Have you not heard of testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin?

Have you not seen husbands beating their wives? Have you not seen wives beating their children? Have you not seen children murdering their beloved pets?

He'd have made a baby-making machine or something, or evolved them out of dog poop.
........So you are saying evolution exists...? And god made the technology we have today..?

If one denies God, they live in damnation without him. Completely separated from the presence of God.
Oh

No.

I am not a follower of god. I'm going to die. Ah. Ah. Doooommm....

You do realise many who are not religious live to have completely alright lives? Many of them are very much content. In fact, more so than many who consistently hold on to false beliefs about this "god" and are left disappointed.

Of course there's no development,
http://www.telcomhistory.org/vm/Images/timeline_color.jpg

^_____________^

no growth,
http://nursingcrib.com/wp-content/uploads/growth-chart2.jpg?9d7bd4
Should all acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind~ Should all acquaintance be forgot and auld lang syne~

no second chance.
NPdapGCx71w

He does love us, I assure you. That's just something that each individual, especially each Christian, has to realize.
You speak of the christian god as if it were the only god one could believe in. As if he were the only real one when there were many other deities who were worshipped before the existence of jesus and old testaments.

[screamtobeheard]

I beg to differ. Read the previous posts in this thread! I see blatant misconceptions of Christian doctrine stated in these previous posts.
Permission to differ denied. So there's a misconception or two? Don't generalize that all of us have misconceptions. I probably know your doctrine better than you do.

Disobeying God is a trite reason for being punished? I see who I'm arguing with.

Quote:
No one is blaming human fallacy on God.
See:
Quote:
Oh, hey, I'm going to allow those two humans over there to sin and condemn the rest of their kind to a really shitty, practically inescapable fate full of frustration and doubt.
And
Quote:
In following the Christian version; God knows everything. He knew what the snake would do, what Eve would do, what Adam would do. This makes God unjust. End of.
Here's another...
Quote:
Old Testament God was pretty pissy, and I have no doubt that someone would have done something to irk him enough to give humans the boot.
Let's not forget:
Quote:
He didn't tell them why, so of course they were tempted to eat from the tree.
Oh, those poor humans. God should've given them a reason to obey.
These quotes do not blame human fallacy on God. They accuse God of knowing about human flaws and not acting upon his knowledge to help us.

You guys are already seem more contradictory than God.
I'm gonna have to agree with Dactyl.

Funny, that seems to be a handful of OT causes. We don't have a commentary from God of why people die today. Not that we are entitled to know why.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

If you know the Gospel and the whole story, there's not much I can say to change your perspective.
I'm taking a Systematics and Apologetics class in school (which, in case you're wondering, is a class on how to argue about religion). The first thing my teacher told us is that the point on arguing about religion is not to change your opponent's perspective. The purpose is to defend your religion, and if you happen to change someone's perspective along the way, congratulations.

[Invincible]

So god instead made mental illnesses, physical ailment, negative feelings, suffering, pain, torment, men, women and children who would be unjustly treated and abused. Ask victims of child abuse, rape and torture, how many of them have prayed to this "god" and how many of them were saved by him?


You have to remember how and why sickness came from.
There was Lucifer, the angel, who decided he was beyond God and wanted to be better than God himself. And what happens when some Mod on here tries to take over this damn place? Banhammer. War. Destruction.
Lucifer was banished. He was punished by God. God didn't place him up high, almost by his side, just so he could use his power to overthrow him. It doesn't work that way. After man's fall, God punished. God is a just God though. He teaches what is right but those who rebuke him and go the opposite way get punished. and heck, he warns.




If god gave humans living being freewill, why is it that many ask for his help when they're in dire need? Why do they give him thanks when good happens? When we all have freewill and all bad, as well as good, is a result of our own doing?


Sure, free will lets us do our own things. Sometimes there are things that he does to help & guide us along the way. Sharing stories breaks VT rules but I've got testimonies of my own.




Woah, woah. What are you implying here? That no matter what we do, that no matter how "pure" or "good" we are, we are destined to suffer? Because that is "god's will"?

So he -wanted- to sacrifice his child.

Never did God say that. God was going to punish the devil though. We are also held accountable for all our sins. At the same time, we aren't going to suffer. Everything will be made known and clear on judgement day. Those who accept God will be taken with him to Heaven. That is God's will - to have everyone return to him.

Through the separation of God and Man through sin, God loses touch with us. We need to be made pure again to be with him. It's not God's will to suffer. God sent (sacrificed) his child to die for our sins. He was the end to sacrifices at the altar. He didn't want to sacrifice his own son. But he did it as a divine sacrifice so we no longer have to do what the OT guys did.




You know, people talk about god giving up his son like it's the most heart-warming, painful thing a man could but but hey, what made anyone think god had feelings?

So you think God bothered to create man then not care about them at all. Heck, he wants them all to be with him. To have a relationship with each and every man that lives.



.....


Oh sweet jesus. Please study the history of Asia, it'll take you a lifetime but I'm sure you'll find some info on diseases prior to the old testament in the nearest bookstore ^___^

So you believe history, which dates thousands of years, but with no REAL, PROVEN theory as to how the first of it came to exist aye? Good luck to your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren, thousands of generations later, who may just be the first to crack the chicken-and-egg dilemma.



Dude, where do you get your information? Do you have a medical degree? A Phd in Philosophy? Are you a major in history? A qualified psychiatrist? Have you studied biology down to the very atom of your being? Have you learned nothing of evolution? Do you pay attention in geography?

I have a personal relationship with the creator. Is that enough? Come at me, mock me. A PHD does nothing but give you Permanent Head Damage.



If he knows what we will do, if he knows what will happen, if he sees it -all-, do we really have this "freewill"? Seeing as we're all part of "his plan"?


Yes, you do have free will. But God is outside of Time, he can see into the past and the future, as well as the present.



What is the point in him creeping on us all the time? Does he find amusement in the mistakes of his "children"?

God is watching over the works of man; the rise of the next generation. He's waiting to see his children come home.




Didn't you just say god wanted his people to choose rather than follow him blindly...? If you do not question his existence or even the righteousness of your "god", you are following blindly.

God wants everyone to make the decision for themselves. He doesn't force. He's a God of justice, not blindness. He wants us to know.




And who made hate? Anger? Fear? Prejudice? Lust?

Read the OT.. They did not exist in Eden. Adam & Eve didn't even know they were naked and uncovered, because it didn't matter and had nothing to hide, until...



Are you implying that reproduction only occurs in acts of "love"? Have you not studied reproduction? "Love" is not a required ingredient for reproduction. In fact, if you studied reproduction in depth, it isn't "pretty" at all as much as... Well, reproduction. Flowers reproduce, frogs do, insects do. And I'm very sure flowers don't feel love for each other or even for themselves.

Love is an ingredient in our society, I guess. A lot of western (asian too?) marriages happen out of love. I'm talking humans here. God is for us and not the little flowers and froggies he made (and gave us dominion over). Without love, you'd be seeing much more rape. Guys wouldn't have an affection to any lady on the earth, they'd just pick one and fuck away.





........So you are saying evolution exists...? And god made the technology we have today..?

Technology existed from the first bowl that man crafted out of clay in the earth to drink water from...
God didn't make technology. Man did. But God created man.
Sure, they didn't split the atom in OT, but they made houses. Communities. Forts. Carriages. A lot of things. I don't exactly know where you're heading with this...




I am not a follower of god. I'm going to die. Ah. Ah. Doooommm....

You do realise many who are not religious live to have completely alright lives? Many of them are very much content. In fact, more so than many who consistently hold on to false beliefs about this "god" and are left disappointed.

I'm not saying anyone who isn't religious at all (or chooses another belief for that sake) will live discontented lives. It's all what you do with your life on Earth after all. Being a Christian was my decision, it's my walk and journey. Sure, I share it with others, but I don't take extremist views and spread it through fear, nor banish / refrain from those who don't share my views. I'll be quite honest and say a lot of my closest friends and I share different views. I expect everyone, regardless of religious views though to acknowledge and respect each others' as much as it is open for debate.



You speak of the christian god as if it were the only god one could believe in. As if he were the only real one when there were many other deities who were worshipped before the existence of jesus and old testaments.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm. From my observations there are many points lacking in many other beliefs (No expert, but something I do know...)

Why is the bible the most stolen, read AND sold book of all time?

Why are the prophecies of the OT so true, without doubt and flaw of other prophecies? Every prophecy that was prophesied to occur by now has. 100%. Not that weird guy that keeps saying the world will end, he's a douche.

Many scientific findings, e.g Dead Sea Scrolls, support, WORD FOR WORD, the words of the Old Testament. Bullshit? Literature? Think again.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. No way the bible knew that. - Someone hasn't read Job 40-41.

Read Leveticus 17. (Or around there I think). God taught biology before Man discovered the science behind blood.

God beat Kim Jong Il to nuclear physics too. 1st or 2nd Peter. Any theology freaks could help me there.

There are many things I can explain, many more I can't. The truth lies in the facts.

[screamtobeheard]

I'm tired, and so don't feel like making a long, argumentative post, but this really stuck out to me.
He was the end to sacrifices at the altar. He didn't want to sacrifice his own son. But he did it as a divine sacrifice so we no longer have to do what the OT guys did.
What do you think the Eucharistic celebration is?

[kenoloor]

Sigh...

You have to remember how and why sickness came from.
There was Lucifer, the angel, who decided he was beyond God and wanted to be better than God himself. And what happens when some Mod on here tries to take over this damn place? Banhammer. War. Destruction.
Lucifer was banished. He was punished by God. God didn't place him up high, almost by his side, just so he could use his power to overthrow him. It doesn't work that way. After man's fall, God punished. God is a just God though. He teaches what is right but those who rebuke him and go the opposite way get punished. and heck, he warns.

And where did Lucifer come from?

Sure, free will lets us do our own things. Sometimes there are things that he does to help & guide us along the way. Sharing stories breaks VT rules but I've got testimonies of my own.

Testimonies are not proof.

We are also held accountable for all our sins. At the same time, we aren't going to suffer. Everything will be made known and clear on judgement day. Those who accept God will be taken with him to Heaven. That is God's will - to have everyone return to him.

If that is God's will, why doesn't everyone return to him?

Through the separation of God and Man through sin, God loses touch with us. We need to be made pure again to be with him. It's not God's will to suffer. God sent (sacrificed) his child to die for our sins. He was the end to sacrifices at the altar. He didn't want to sacrifice his own son. But he did it as a divine sacrifice so we no longer have to do what the OT guys did.

So you're suggesting that God, who is omniscient and omnipotent got so screwed by humans that he did something he didn't want to? lolwut

So you think God bothered to create man then not care about them at all. Heck, he wants them all to be with him. To have a relationship with each and every man that lives.

Again, then why doesn't that happen?

I have a personal relationship with the creator. Is that enough? Come at me, mock me. A PHD does nothing but give you Permanent Head Damage.

Up until now, I could still take you kind of seriously. Not anymore. This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in 3 years on this damned forum ever. Congratulations.

Yes, you do have free will. But God is outside of Time, he can see into the past and the future, as well as the present.

Then what purpose is there anyway? He's like a crappy parent who doesn't intervene when shit goes down.

God is watching over the works of man; the rise of the next generation. He's waiting to see his children come home.

God wants everyone to make the decision for themselves. He doesn't force. He's a God of justice, not blindness. He wants us to know.

Read the OT.. They did not exist in Eden. Adam & Eve didn't even know they were naked and uncovered, because it didn't matter and had nothing to hide, until...

If I convert to Christianity, does that mean I am suddenly allowed to not actually answer questions directly? That's useful.

Love is an ingredient in our society, I guess. A lot of western (asian too?) marriages happen out of love. I'm talking humans here. God is for us and not the little flowers and froggies he made (and gave us dominion over). Without love, you'd be seeing much more rape. Guys wouldn't have an affection to any lady on the earth, they'd just pick one and fuck away.

How do you know?

I'm not saying anyone who isn't religious at all (or chooses another belief for that sake) will live discontented lives. It's all what you do with your life on Earth after all. Being a Christian was my decision, it's my walk and journey. Sure, I share it with others, but I don't take extremist views and spread it through fear, nor banish / refrain from those who don't share my views. I'll be quite honest and say a lot of my closest friends and I share different views. I expect everyone, regardless of religious views though to acknowledge and respect each others' as much as it is open for debate.

But if you're not Christian you're going to burn in hell for eternity.

Why is the bible the most stolen, read AND sold book of all time?

The National Enquirer is the best selling tabloid in the US, so everything claimed therein must be true.

Why are the prophecies of the OT so true, without doubt and flaw of other prophecies? Every prophecy that was prophesied to occur by now has. 100%. Not that weird guy that keeps saying the world will end, he's a douche.

Many scientific findings, e.g Dead Sea Scrolls, support, WORD FOR WORD, the words of the Old Testament. Bullshit? Literature? Think again.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. No way the bible knew that. - Someone hasn't read Job 40-41.

Read Leveticus 17. (Or around there I think). God taught biology before Man discovered the science behind blood.

God beat Kim Jong Il to nuclear physics too. 1st or 2nd Peter. Any theology freaks could help me there.

lol.

There are many things I can explain, many more I can't. The truth lies in the facts.

Yes, facts. You've got a lot of those.

[Donkey]

It always amazes me.

This thread in itself is proof of evolution: the human brain simply has not evolved enough for humans to treat each other with respect, dignity and to appreciate and fully empathise with each other's views in a well mannered and good way - hence, we are not as social as we think yet we try to live in a very social world. The brain evolved for the world as it was thousands of years ago: not such a diverse, social place.

Almost all of the debate here comes from the point that you guys are not using any empathy: the Christian is taught to believe in God and the Bible from birth, he is not going to allow those views to be disrupted by forum posts; the atheists and non-Christians believe that the Bible is untrue, hence want to put forward their viewpoint as much as possible and try to argue that the creation story and God is an unreasonable and nonsensical explanation.

The OP asks a very reasonable question regarding Christianity, and I certainly took a moment to think after it. However with you guys "debating" like this, the Christians think that non-Christians are ignorant, and the non-Christians think the Christians are ignorant... the more it happens, the more it is reinforced and the more conflict occurs. Then you call each other stupid; when really, it is fine for us to have differing opinions. In fact, it is what makes us human - it is something we should celebrate.

In debates I think it is worth taking a little time out to truly consider someone elses view and how they feel, and indeed why they feel as they do. It may not be that they are mistaken, but rather that they use their own logic in a different way to you or indeed that they simply hold a different viewpoint based on their own experiences. Trying to debate that will not get you anywhere.

I look at both Richard Dawkins and militant fundamental Christians with the same distaste and annoyance; they will both clutch their views and refuse to listen to their opponents, and empathise with how they feel. They constantly feel as if they must attack others to display their own arrogance and confidence in their beliefs; and for what purpose? One may be right, one may be wrong; at the end of the day, everyone in this thread needs to be a little more considerate to the opposing view.

[Efflorescence]

I look at both Richard Dawkins and militant fundamental Christians with the same distaste and annoyance; they will both clutch their views and refuse to listen to their opponents, and empathise with how they feel. They constantly feel as if they must attack others to display their own arrogance and confidence in their beliefs; and for what purpose? One may be right, one may be wrong; at the end of the day, everyone in this thread needs to be a little more considerate to the opposing view.

I've just joined your fan club.

But if you're not Christian you're going to burn in hell for eternity.

I would love to know who gave you that inaccurate information about the beliefs of Christians.

Up until now, I could still take you kind of seriously. Not anymore. This is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in 3 years on this damned forum ever. Congratulations.

I think that he was making a joke. No need to make a big deal out of it.

Edit: And on this thread, a joke, dumb or not is definitely needed.

[kenoloor]

I would love to know who gave you that inaccurate information about the beliefs of Christians.

Your holy book gave me that information.
Luke 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."