Anti-theism

[Maxxie]

Christopher Hitchens' was a major proponent of this philosophy, and I was just interested to sed VT's thoughts on the matter.

From Wikipedia:

... Christopher Hitchens writes: I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of
religious belief, is positively harmful."

[Magus]

On what basis or criteria does he use to put the religious beliefs as harmful?

[Genghis Khan]

It's harmful, it's harmless. Hitchens is just throwing arguments from one extreme end of the spectrum, like he did in several of his books e.g. 'God is not Great'.

I really don't agree with any of his philosophies, in fact I think he was one of the worst atheist figures in the world and a straight up douchebag. What he basically did was make religion out to be a much bigger problem than it is and got paid for being an atheist. His writing and ideas are that of an angsty teenage dirtbag that's just realised that there is no God and religion is more or less fiction and to intensify things, went out of his way to be an aggressive sod.

Despite being an atheist, I don't look up to many 'atheist' representatives. The only 'militant' atheist that I do respect is Matt Dillahunty. The rest of them are more or less, eh, childish.

[Azunite]

Religions form cultures. Cultures form civilizations. Civilizations form the mankind.

[Kimy]

The thing is what if he's wrong. If their is an over power ( God or Goddess or many of each ) then he will die and have a terrible after life end of. But if someone who belives in religion dies and there is no God/Goddess/many of each then they're dead they don't exist anymore they aren't alive at all anymore. So you can't win if you're an atheist.
Religious people can't lose. Argue with that, bet you can't. :D

[Genghis Khan]

The thing is what if he's wrong. If their is an over power ( God or Goddess or many of each ) then he will die and have a terrible after life end of. But if someone who belives in religion dies and there is no God/Goddess/many of each then they're dead they don't exist anymore they aren't alive at all anymore. So you can't win if you're an atheist.
Religious people can't lose. Argue with that, bet you can't. :D

Suppose my vein throbbing cock God was real and he shot a sea of sperm at people who believed in the Abrahamic Gods.

You'll not only lose. You'll be smothered in semen.

[Magus]

Argue with that, bet you can't. :D
This is called the Pascal Wager argument, and it has been refuted for billions of billions of time, and there is no need for any of us to repeat those refutations.

[Azunite]

The thing is what if he's wrong. If their is an over power ( God or Goddess or many of each ) then he will die and have a terrible after life end of. But if someone who belives in religion dies and there is no God/Goddess/many of each then they're dead they don't exist anymore they aren't alive at all anymore. So you can't win if you're an atheist.
Religious people can't lose. Argue with that, bet you can't. :D



Yeah well if God is a supreme being like you told us, then he would also have understanding and he wouldn't punish a man who thinks and questions things around him.

Don't worry about the Atheists. As long as they don't kill someone or commit such a sin, they will be fine in the afterlife. They appreciate your concern though.

[joshtheguitard]

Yeah well if God is a supreme being like you told us, then he would also have understanding and he wouldn't punish a man who thinks and questions things around him.

God doesn't punish people for questioning and speculating. He punishes man for turning away from truth.

[Bougainvillea]

God doesn't punish people for questioning and speculating. He punishes man for turning away from truth.

Well, its his fault for not showing the truth. He's such an unjust asshole. Good thing he doesn't exist. We'd probably see the same results in the world if he did.

[Kimy]

Suppose my vein throbbing cock God was real and he shot a sea of sperm at people who believed in the Abrahamic Gods.

You'll not only lose. You'll be smothered in semen.

Firstly when did i say i belived in the abrahamic Gods. I belive in machyism.
And secondly some girls don't mind being covered in sperm, call me slutty if you will :p

[Azunite]

God doesn't punish people for questioning and speculating. He punishes man for turning away from truth.

Well, for Theists Atheists are those who have turned away from truth

[joshtheguitard]

Good thing he doesn't exist. We'd probably see the same results in the world if he did.
Good thing he does exist. We'd probably not see any results if he didn't.
Well, for Theists Atheists are those who have turned away from truth
I am aware.

[Magus]

Good thing he does exist. We'd probably not see any results if he didn't.
Indeed.
http://www.mikefook.com/images/vultures-next-meal-child1.jpg

[deadpie]

I used to be quite anti-theist in all ways, but I've met people who's lives have really been saved by religion. Some people really do need that higher power analogy to be happy, feel good about themselves, and/or not be scared of death.

And my idea for faith is that it should be personal, spiritual in your own way, your experience and reasons different from another persons. With it being personal it can't be pushed onto others too.

There was a time on this site where I literally had a thread entitled, "Fuck Faith" I think and I bashed not only religion itself, but the emotion of faith in all. I'm understanding other people's reasoning as to why they might need it.

Thing is not everyone needs it, religion isn't truth, and it can hurt people in certain ways. How so? Prayer. You know those crazy evangelical families that say it's better to pray then to take medicine, then someone dies from not taking the medicine they need.

I have to take medicines on a daily basis to stay alive, so I'm obviously not going to just stop taking my shit and pray for my body to just work. That's fucking stupid.

How else can it hurt? Psychologically. I've seen family members go completely bonkers out of their minds over faith to the point where one of those family members decided to load the basement with weapons and is in overly deep paranoia. When the Bible is also taken too seriously with certain passages, it can cause damage. The Bible is VERY violent at times and lacks scientific knowledge. Those parents who buy those edited text books for Christians Only, those things will make a child into a fucking idiot for most of their life unless they somehow see the ridiculousness in it all themselves.

Of course, there's always when people decide to start killing people of other religions because God says that's a good idea. That's obviously not logical.

I don't feel like typing much, because frankly I feel like debating religion is getting uber-old now. Same arguments, same words over and over, nothing new ever brought to he discussion, yet here I am.

[joshtheguitard]

For me, I find an inward sense of peace being Christian, and I can freely discuss it with anyone. But, whenever someone tries to figure why God does what He does is when I have nothing to respond with, because it cannot be understood. For instance, the poster above me who posted the pic just above me, why God allows this I do not know, but I do know that he has commanded whoever can help to do something about it. You might say, "Then why, if God does exist, did he allow it in the first place?" I don't know. The Bible teaches that it is not man's place to try to figure out how God thinks.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers or anything like that. I'm just trying to explain a Christian viewpoint. If it offends you, I'm sorry, but now you know how we think and where we get it from.

[TheMatrix]

God doesn't punish people for questioning and speculating. He punishes man for turning away from truth.
Ignorance [of the real truth] is bliss ;)


You may interpret that in any way you like.

[joshtheguitard]

Ignorance [of the real truth] is bliss ;)


You may interpret that in any way you like.

Hey, to each his own, I guess. :)

[Magus]

But, whenever someone tries to figure why God does what He does is when I have nothing to respond with, because it cannot be understood. For instance, the poster above me who posted the pic just above me, why God allows this I do not know, but I do know that he has commanded whoever can help to do something about it.

I know the answer: God is big fucking asshole. He creates people, and then kill them for no reason, and then send them to hell to burn for eternity, all that for his own fucking amusement.

Ain't God work in mysterious ways? Oh, yes, he does.

[joshtheguitard]

I know the answer: God is big fucking asshole. He creates people, and then kill them for no reason, and then send them to hell to burn for eternity, all that for his own fucking amusement.

Ain't God work in mysterious ways? Oh, yes, he does.

I don't understand why you are trying to provoke me into some angry argument over the character of God. I know you don't want an intelligent argument because you're not making any intelligent points or counter arguments. You hate Christians- I get it. I didn't reply to this thread to try to start some inflammatory war over if God really is just or not.

[Bougainvillea]

I don't understand why you are trying to provoke me into some angry argument over the character of God. I know you don't want an intelligent argument because you're not making any intelligent points or counter arguments. You hate Christians- I get it. I didn't reply to this thread to try to start some inflammatory war over if God really is just or not.

Its because there is no logical reasoning behind what God does, or thinks. What else are we supposed to think when we see what we do. He kills people, and for some reason allows hatred and war to happen.

He wants to create man with the burden of sin just because of his existence, then he's going to impregnate a woman with himself, who then kills himself to save us from the sin he originally condemned us to. And then his excuse is that he gave Adam and Eve a choice, and because they were little cunts, we are all going to be punished. Its not fair. He's such a bitch.

[joshtheguitard]

Its because there is no logical reasoning behind what God does, or thinks. What else are we supposed to think when we see what we do. He kills people, and for some reason allows hatred and war to happen.

He wants to create man with the burden of sin just because of his existence, then he's going to impregnate a woman with himself, who then kills himself to save us from the sin he originally condemned us to. And then his excuse is that he gave Adam and Eve a choice, and because they were little cunts, we are all going to be punished. Its not fair. He's such a bitch.

So by your reasoning, we as humans are blameless and perfect?

[embers]

So by your reasoning, we as humans are blameless and perfect?

Nope, but by your reasoning God is supposed to be perfect, which by the accounts in your own religion he blatantly isn't.

[Bougainvillea]

So by your reasoning, we as humans are blameless and perfect?

Not necessarily, but God enjoys worrying about petty, useless things. Or things that don't even matter.

[joshtheguitard]

Nope, but by your reasoning God is supposed to be perfect, which by the accounts in your own religion he blatantly isn't.

On the contrary, by the accounts in my religion, he is, and man is portrayed as blatantly imperfect. Suppose that the accounts of the Bible were true. Just play along. God creates man to have a personal relationship with him. Man sins and who's to blame? Why, he is; therefore, separating himself from God, because he is without sin -perfect and blameless. That does not stop him from loving mankind though. He provides for his people throughout recorded Scripture and punishes them when they disobey.

Again, play along. Suppose the Gospel is true. Just suppose. God sends his son to die for our sins therefore reconciling man from his sin debt. Then by him, we have a personal relationship with him by which we can grow in and life everlasting. He didn't have to do that.

You all may see the Christian's God as an impersonal jerk and a cruel being who treats mankind as his own guinea pigs which he loves to torture. That's not the impression I get from the recorded accounts of Scripture. I'm not trying to push my beliefs on or convert anyone for that matter, I'm just refuting your arguments and explaining why they are wrong on the account of Scripture. Again, I'm not trying or wanting to be some asshole who just seems to show up out of the blue to judge you all. Just defending what I believe.

[Azunite]

You people are forgetting something: "God" isn't a human being, God isn't also one of your average Olympian God. I don't even think the being "God" has any feelings or such, therefore we cannot say God enjoys or takes pleasure from stuff, etc. It is not relevant but in my opinion it is also wrong to say "him" to God.

[Efflorescence]

God is not something of this world, isn't he? If we could understand him, then he wouldn't be God....he would be human, something of this world and not abstract like He is.
He would also be something we can control and predict with our instruments, and that would not really make sense at all.

There are many things that can cause harm if used in the wrong way like the Internet, a knife etc. And this applies also to religion.

[BFG9001]

I don't like fake christains. I get persecuted for being atheist by people who are too pusillanimous to 'come out'.

[jockguy14]

God is not something of this world, isn't he? If we could understand him, then he wouldn't be God....he would be human, something of this world and not abstract like He is.
He would also be something we can control and predict with our instruments, and that would not really make sense at all.

There are many things that can cause harm if used in the wrong way like the Internet, a knife etc. And this applies also to religion.

this.

If you knew the reason God did everything then you'd be God.

[Modus Operandi]

On the contrary, by the accounts in my religion, he is, and man is portrayed as blatantly imperfect. Suppose that the accounts of the Bible were true. Just play along. God creates man to have a personal relationship with him. Man sins and who's to blame? Why, he is; therefore, separating himself from God, because he is without sin -perfect and blameless. That does not stop him from loving mankind though. He provides for his people throughout recorded Scripture and punishes them when they disobey.

Again, play along. Suppose the Gospel is true. Just suppose. God sends his son to die for our sins therefore reconciling man from his sin debt. Then by him, we have a personal relationship with him by which we can grow in and life everlasting. He didn't have to do that.

You all may see the Christian's God as an impersonal jerk and a cruel being who treats mankind as his own guinea pigs which he loves to torture. That's not the impression I get from the recorded accounts of Scripture. I'm not trying to push my beliefs on or convert anyone for that matter, I'm just refuting your arguments and explaining why they are wrong on the account of Scripture. Again, I'm not trying or wanting to be some asshole who just seems to show up out of the blue to judge you all. Just defending what I believe.

I applaud you for defending your views and doing so without resorting to the simplistic "you'll just burn in hell" retorts that so often plague these sorts of debates.

But I feel as though there is a point I should make regarding, specifically, the story of Adam and Eve. God creates Adam, takes a rib, makes Eve, etc etc, we both know how this ends. In the end, however, it comes out that the entirety of mankind for the rest of its existence is to be born into this idea of "original sin." How, may I ask, could a just being as God is purported to be allow such a thing?

I understand that Christ died for our sins and that through him comes salvation, but to be honest, I think that's irrelevant to the argument. The fact of the matter in my mind is that Christ shouldn't have NEEDED to die for our sins because the foolishness of the second human ever created oughtn't be grounds for the damnation of all mankind in the first place.

[kenoloor]

The fact of the matter in my mind is that Christ shouldn't have NEEDED to die for our sins because the foolishness of the second human ever created oughtn't be grounds for the damnation of all mankind in the first place.

God always did have a bit of a flair for the dramatic.

[Azunite]

It's a good thing that we have so much oppression in Islam. Nobody can say "Allah is a bad being", therefore everyone is happy.

[joshtheguitard]

I applaud you for defending your views and doing so without resorting to the simplistic "you'll just burn in hell" retorts that so often plague these sorts of debates.

But I feel as though there is a point I should make regarding, specifically, the story of Adam and Eve. God creates Adam, takes a rib, makes Eve, etc etc, we both know how this ends. In the end, however, it comes out that the entirety of mankind for the rest of its existence is to be born into this idea of "original sin." How, may I ask, could a just being as God is purported to be allow such a thing?

I understand that Christ died for our sins and that through him comes salvation, but to be honest, I think that's irrelevant to the argument. The fact of the matter in my mind is that Christ shouldn't have NEEDED to die for our sins because the foolishness of the second human ever created oughtn't be grounds for the damnation of all mankind in the first place.

Yeah, it doesn't really seem fair, does it? Before I explain, I must clarify that Adam is the one who is addressed as having sinned because he was the one given the command not to eat of the tree and failed in his responsibility of instructing his wife -Eve had not been created when God gives the command to Adam.

Now, that being said, keep in mind that before the fall of man, sin simply did not exist in the world. So by Adam's foolishness, sin enters the world through one man, and mankind as a whole is now spiritually polluted. Mankind is one entity and has one nature. You see, God is not the one who condemned all of mankind. It is man's own fault. God is blameless, especially of man's wrongdoing. How could God allow for that to happen? Man was created with freewill from the beginning. He had a choice -he could obey God's command or he could disobey; he knowingly chose to disobey, and that is why he is to blame.

BTW, I brought up the account of the Gospel because we were debating on the perfection of God. I was trying to use that bit to say that God was perfect and because we as humans are separated by our own imperfection, the only way we could have a relationship with him is if he reconciled us, which I believe he did. I guess I didn't clarify my point there when I was trying to distinguish man's separation from God because of his imperfection. :whoops:

[Modus Operandi]

Yeah, it doesn't really seem fair, does it? Before I explain, I must clarify that Adam is the one who is addressed as having sinned because he was the one given the command not to eat of the tree and failed in his responsibility of instructing his wife -Eve had not been created when God gives the command to Adam.

Now, that being said, keep in mind that before the fall of man, sin simply did not exist in the world. So by Adam's foolishness, sin enters the world through one man, and mankind as a whole is now spiritually polluted. Mankind is one entity and has one nature. You see, God is not the one who condemned all of mankind. It is man's own fault. God is blameless, especially of man's wrongdoing. How could God allow for that to happen? Man was created with freewill from the beginning. He had a choice -he could obey God's command or he could disobey; he knowingly chose to disobey, and that is why he is to blame.

BTW, I brought up the account of the Gospel because we were debating on the perfection of God. I was trying to use that bit to say that God was perfect and because we as humans are separated by our own imperfection, the only way we could have a relationship with him is if he reconciled us, which I believe he did. I guess I didn't clarify my point there when I was trying to distinguish man's separation from God because of his imperfection. :whoops:

Ah, I see. I think it's the "one entity" concept that I have the most problems with. Autonomy is, I believe, the most important thing anyone can have in their existence, and the idea of original sin violates that in my view. It just gets under my skin.

Also, thanks for the clarification regarding Adam and Eve. I'll admit it's been awhile since I've looked at that story very closely.

[joshtheguitard]

Ah, I see. I think it's the "one entity" concept that I have the most problems with. Autonomy is, I believe, the most important thing anyone can have in their existence, and the idea of original sin violates that in my view. It just gets under my skin.

Also, thanks for the clarification regarding Adam and Eve. I'll admit it's been awhile since I've looked at that story very closely.

No problem man. Happy to clarify. I have no hard feelings toward anyone else's opinions or views.

[Jean Poutine]

Holy shit Adam ate from a motherfucking tree and we will all burn in Hell for it unless we REPENT REPENT REPENT for shit we did not do. The fall of one little dipshit makes us all imperfect. God is the evil teacher giving more homework to everyone because one retard threw an eraser right at his forehead and hit bullseye, so he decides that in the end, we're all retards and we all need extra homework. Last time I checked, judging others for shit another did was abhorrent. In our system of justice, it's unthinkable. For all its flaws, man's law sure seems a heck of a lot more fair than God's immature little splurges in monstrosity, genocide and planet flooding.

Personally, I would think God would give more credence to the fact humankind can live good, pious and peaceful lives even with the knowledge of sin than to the millions of assholes prostrating themselves in a vain (and often half-hearted) attempt to win their Heaven. Church on Sunday, beat your wife on Monday, kick your dog on Tuesday, touch your kid in naughty places on Wednesday, cheat at cards on Thursday, throw rocks at homeless people on Friday, masturbate on Saturday then go to church again! Perfect!

Question : limit oneself and lead a good life because one is scared to bits of burning for eternity, or knowingly lead a good life with nothing to gain for it in the afterlife : which is the most admirable? What if God rewarded the free thinkers, those that question everything around them in order to better themselves, those that lead good lives without a ball and chain, those that are not afraid of being black sheep in a sea of white, fluffy assholes?

God's ways are fucking impenetrable, believers claim. Are they so impenetrable as to make the whole Scripture nothing more than a hilarious (and gruesome) set of contradictory tales? Imagine that this whole religion shit is just a test from God to see who can live decent lives with and without a crutch. Who knows? That'd be a hoot!

I'm just going to go join a cargo cult. Much less complicated and also much less assholey.

[Maxxie]

I'm surprised that with all this Genesis talk, no one has brought. Up the concept of Original Sin being an allegory for Human Nature.

Just a thought.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

The thing is what if he's wrong. If their is an over power ( God or Goddess or many of each ) then he will die and have a terrible after life end of. But if someone who belives in religion dies and there is no God/Goddess/many of each then they're dead they don't exist anymore they aren't alive at all anymore. So you can't win if you're an atheist.
Religious people can't lose. Argue with that, bet you can't. :D

Let's say, just as an example, that there is a 1/2 chance there is SOME kind of god. There loads of religions/religious groups out there. For this example lets say there are only six religions that exist and if there is infact a god this god is based off of one of these six religions. From what I understand you are saying: There might not be a god, but just in case there is lets choose one of these six religions. So now there's a 1/6 chance you won't have a "terrible afterlife". Here's the thing though, there are, like I said before, loads of different religions. That's all fine and dandy, but I have another argument I'd like to share with you. Look around at what is happening in the world. It is falling apart. People die everyday. Why would you want to spend eternity with a being that lets these things just happen?

[RoseyCadaver]

Times like these are when I'm glad to say when it comes to religion or atheism I just don't give a fuck.

Someone's God can be interpreted many ways. Examples can be seen with Baptist, there are so many goddamned break offs I just can't tell which one is different.

For someone to make a generalized statement about religion like that is just an asshole, trying to start trouble or fights. Same thing can apply to a Christian telling all his atheist friends they're going to burn in a hell while they're being butt fucked by Satan. Each side go throw mud, and start trouble. It's not just one side that causes the fight.

[gazazi1997]

I'm a Christian and I see the Bible as a book of values like not being selfish and giving a damn about people other than yourself. If you uphold these values and live a life being kind to people, you're rewarded. Thats all I know. I'm not going to condemn other people for their beliefs (or lack thereof). I just think that there's something above this all and that this world can't be pointless. I look around and I see beauty everywhere; it can't be accidental.
As for some of the ridiculous rules, I don't believe in those. I'm gay, so I obviously don't agree with that rule. God made me the way I am: beautiful. And i wish that other people could just give religion a chance, and realize that it doesn't automatically condemn you to Hell; it's just the way you look at it.