Should Routine Infant Circumcision Be Banned?

[canadaski]

It astonishes me the number of people that are misinformed about circumcision. I laugh when people cite severely biased studies from 50+ years ago stating that circumcision is cleaner and prevents transmission of viruses and growth of harmful bacteria.

When I ask if routine infant circumcision should be banned, I'm not talking about teens and adults that make an informed decision so long as they are not led astray by misinformation.

What do you think should become of this procedure that is so prominent, particularly in the United States and Middle East? I think it should be banned entirely.

[Sugaree]

I think it should be up to the parents. There's no use in banning routine circumcision, because that eliminates the rights of the parents. If the parents feel the right thing to do is to circumcise their child, so be it. Also remember that if a child doesn't like the fact that he's circumcised, there ARE medically safe methods to extend the foreskin.

[Vonn]

Oh, please. This is hardly something worth whining over. It all comes down to personal preference if you're left with the option. So what if your parents had you cut as a baby? What have they really taken from you in doing so? If it's that important, go see a doctor and get it done.

[spartanrob]

I am circumcised and I like it. But I definitely would rather be cut as an infant than now as a teen. So I think parents should be able to choose.

[Korashk]

What have they really taken from you in doing so?
Well, for about 100 infants a year, what they taken is said infant's life. In order to perform a procedure that is absolutely unnecessary. If we replaced the word "circumcision" with the phrase "nose job", or "boob job", or "tummy tuck" people would obviously be against it.

You see, those things are fundamentally the same as circumcision, cosmetic surgery, but for some reason people still think infant circumcision should be allowed.

Fuck "the rights of the parent". Why should "parental rights" allow them to perform unnecessary surgery on their child?

[Azunite]

I'm seriuosly fucking pissed off, why the fuck you people are against it? I'm sick of all these "Fuck circumcision" threads and you people are not sick of opening new ones every month. It doesn't have cons and it has pros, why be against it?

[Korashk]

It doesn't have cons and it has pros, why be against it?
Because that statement is false. Circumcision has quantifiable cons, violation of individual rights and death being the top two, and pros that are nebulous at best.

[Azunite]

Because that statement is false. Circumcision has quantifiable cons, violation of individual rights and death being the top two, and pros that are nebulous at best.


Death?

All I can say is lol

[Genghis Khan]

Oh, please. This is hardly something worth whining over. It all comes down to personal preference if you're left with the option. So what if your parents had you cut as a baby? What have they really taken from you in doing so? If it's that important, go see a doctor and get it done.

Pretty much this. They're both penises either way, besides who wouldn't want it cut? Looks fucking sexy.

[Jupiter]

I am pro-choice, and that doesn't just concern abortion, in my own opinion. If you are pro-choice, I believe that it's honestly their choice if it's their baby. In this case, the baby can't speak for himself. It's not like instead of having a baby be circumsized for free, waiting until the baby is like 13- whenever, just to go into the hospital.

I am pretty sure that it IS the parents decision in the USA, but..

[antiabort]

Nope.

[embers]

Yeah I don't think it's that big an issue, although considering the '100 infants every year' death statistic I think that if parents are going to have their child circumcised it should be in the most medically safe environment possible.

[Vonn]

Well, for about 100 infants a year, what they taken is said infant's life. In order to perform a procedure that is absolutely unnecessary. If we replaced the word "circumcision" with the phrase "nose job", or "boob job", or "tummy tuck" people would obviously be against it.

Would you mind providing a source for that?

Your examples aren't very comparable. All babies are flabby, they lack breasts, etc.

You see, those things are fundamentally the same as circumcision, cosmetic surgery, but for some reason people still think infant circumcision should be allowed.

Perhaps most parents are simply misinformed on the matter. Or they're trying to save their son years of getting his foreskin caught in the zipper of his jeans.

Fuck "the rights of the parent". Why should "parental rights" allow them to perform unnecessary surgery on their child?

Those rights allow parents to do a lot of things. This is far from the worst. And the doctor is the one who performs the surgery, not the parents.

[StoppingTime]

I think it should be up to the parents. There's no use in banning routine circumcision, because that eliminates the rights of the parents. If the parents feel the right thing to do is to circumcise their child, so be it. Also remember that if a child doesn't like the fact that he's circumcised, there ARE medically safe methods to extend the foreskin.

Pretty much this. It is the parents decision when child is born. Either way, it'll takes away either the child or parent's rights. True, it isn't the parents body, but they have the right to make that choice for their child. And as it has been said, foreskin restoration os possible.

[Korashk]

Death?

All I can say is lol
Would you mind providing a source for that?
http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=903a3f67ccaf47ae8068f15caa8efb3c&pi=5

Your examples aren't very comparable. All babies are flabby, they lack breasts, etc.
Well, tummy tucks are for people who are flabby, and boob jobs are for people who lack breasts. I don't see what you're getting at.

However, that wasn't the point of the comparison. The point was that people would obviously be against those things, while being for circumcision even though the procedures are fundamentally the same.

Those rights allow parents to do a lot of things. This is far from the worst.
So what?

And the doctor is the one who performs the surgery, not the parents.
Seriously? Did you really just type that?

[Vonn]

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/b64n267w47m333x0/?p=903a3f67ccaf47ae8068f15caa8efb3c&pi=5

Is that little paragraph supposed to be all, or is your source the $15 PDF document?

Well, tummy tucks are for people who are flabby, and boob jobs are for people who lack breasts. I don't see what you're getting at.

Babies are meant to be flabby; they grow into their skin. Babies don't need breasts for obvious reasons. I see your point, it's just a little clouded. (Also, big-breasted women get boob jobs, too.)

However, that wasn't the point of the comparison. The point was that people would obviously be against those things, while being for circumcision even though the procedures are fundamentally the same.

I agree with you here. It's just a case of infants' rights vs parents' rights, and the parents will almost always win because they're old enough to complain about it.

So what?

Well, you were whining about parental rights, so I thought I'd make you feel better by reminding you that circumcision isn't the worst thing parents can do to their children. I guess it didn't work.

Seriously? Did you really just type that?

So what if I did?

[Azunite]

Deaths?

It seems the American doctors aren't qualified enough, we never have deaths in Turkey.

[canadaski]

Babies don't remain babies forever, what happens when the child is old enough to vare about what happens to their penis? Of course they'll get used to it and accept it in the interim. If you cut off a baby's arm, they'll grow older and nothing will have changed because they've never known anything else.

It's quite hard to listen to someone whos opinion is so hostile and biased. Lay some facts down on me instead of the uncivilized "fuck you" that happens all of the time around issues such as this.

People think of a penis as your sex life, when that's not quite true. It's a huge part of your social life, especially growing up.

I have not yet reached the age of majority and I could walk into a doctors office and get a referral to a urologist to have the surgery done within 2 weeks.

Does that mean I would? No, because I don't make those types of decisions without prior knowledge. I was considering getting it done at one point, but spent several months researching it and decided against it. I made an informed decision for my body and am grateful I received that liberty.

Don't go thinking that I like in a place where being uncircumcised is the norm. I narrowly escaped being circumcised because at birth, my grandfather made a comment to my parents not to circumcise me. If he were still alive I would hug and kiss him for that comment.

The fact is that it doesn't matter whos within their rights to make the decision, someone has to make it at some point. ANY decision that involves surgery should be made with complete care, not just because other people "say" so. Especially in this day and age, accurate information is very hard to come by.

"Let's cut it of now for no real reason, then he can go through the hassle 20 years down the road in a desperate attempt to rectify the problem."

Wow, some of you are completely oblivious to the fact that a full foreskin restoration takes up to or over 5 years to complete, and you still won't retain the full functionality of being fully intact. That thought process is completely counter productive.

Then there's the people that think a circumcised penis is more attractive (I don't particularly agree but many do). I see very many ugly people on a daily basis. Maybe their lives would be better off if their faces were removed early on in life, then assholes wouldn't have to stare at their face.

The parents should not have the right to make the decision. A child has to live with their body for the rest of their life, long after the 18 years or so that are spent with their parents.

Have you seen any pictures of botched circumcisions? I won't give pictures as many are extremely graphic (conduct a little search). This kind of crap happens daily, much more often than we think.

Read this story, try and tell me that you don't feel immense sympathy towards david:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Also, If you feel like a good read then buy a copy of this book. 320 pages of good information to sift through and read.

http://www.circumcision.org/cht.htm

Those aren't sources to my arguments, they're just something I suggest you look at; even anti circumcision folks.

Deaths?

It seems the American doctors aren't qualified enough, we never have deaths in Turkey.

Turkey most certainly does have deaths resulting from circumcision. Just because they are not reported does not mean they don't exist. I can assure you that the quality of medical care has nothing to do with it. Whenever you risk taking a scalpal to any part of your body, you risk shit happening. These deaths and injuries are exactly that; shit happening as shit always has happened and always will happen. Nothing is certain or 100% risk free; nothing. Even the best urological surgeon with state of the art equipment won't be able to avoid the occasional accident.

[HaydenM]

The reason circumcision is so popular today is due to mr Kellogg I believe. He was an avid christian and believed that if everyone was cut then they couldn't jack off and spill their seed in sin so the story was spread by him and others like him that it was more clean

[MisterSix]

Come on guys. A foreskin is like an outside appendix.
What does it do? Just sit there
What will you lose / gain by removing it? Nothing at all.

[Fresh]

I think imma have alot gripe and gibe towards me if i say this, but "Too bad so sad"? There is really no way you can make life simple. if the parent made the decision to get their child circumcised, which for a good circumcision goes for about $800 - $2000(not including the after care like lotions and ointments),Then well Too bad so sad? its not like they destroyed his future. If someone died from a botched circumcision, i don't want to say they got what they payed for but its sorta implied, cause medical procedures are expensive.

I really don't see the dilemma in getting circumcised. Cut or uncut i don't thnk their are really that many benefits in having skin on your penis as a baby

[canadaski]

benefits in having skin on your penis as a baby

How long in proportion to the rest of one's life do they remain a "baby?"

[kuuliluuk]

Yep, it must be banned.

[DerBear]

The reason circumcision is so popular today is due to mr Kellogg I believe. He was an avid christian and believed that if everyone was cut then they couldn't jack off and spill their seed in sin so the story was spread by him and others like him that it was more clean

So he went against god in pursiuite of inforcing gods rules

How intresting lol

If you think about it god is supposedly the one who created us (I dont belive this just so you know I am not a christian) So in a sense he gave birth to all humans and had them have a foreskin, so he has gone against what god created lol in a sense.

[Djentleman]

You're too young to know whats going on or remember how it felt to have one. So you won't miss what you didn't have in the first place.

[kenoloor]

You're too young to know whats going on or remember how it felt to have one. So you won't miss what you didn't have in the first place.

My cousin had an experimental operation performed on his eyes when he was a baby that caused him to be blind. Since he doesn't remember sight, he doesn't miss what he didn't have, right?

[embers]

My cousin had an experimental operation performed on his eyes when he was a baby that caused him to be blind. Since he doesn't remember sight, he doesn't miss what he didn't have, right?

Eyesight is a necessity, unlike foreskin.

[kenoloor]

Eyesight is a necessity, unlike foreskin.

He's living without it.

[embers]

He's living without it.

It's still silly to deny that blindness puts you at a much larger disadvantage than lack of foreskin, making the comparison invalid.

[kenoloor]

It's still silly to deny that blindness puts you at a much larger disadvantage than lack of foreskin, making the comparison invalid.

My point was that just because you never had something doesn't mean it can't be missed.

[Seiter_12]

i think they should ban it and i think its wrong for a parent to get it done as they dont use painkillers and cutting out a body part that works fine for no reason.
And if its illegal for girls to get circumcised and it proudly has the name "Female Genital Mutilation" but not for guys

[Efflorescence]

I am pro-choice, and that doesn't just concern abortion, in my own opinion. If you are pro-choice, I believe that it's honestly their choice if it's their baby.

If we were talking about a vase, then I would have agreed. You know, it's their vase and they could do anything they like with it.

But when we're talking about a human being, that doesn't make sense. Even if you are pro-choice, once he's out of the womb the state doesn't allow parents to make certain decisions on their baby like murdering him, doing experiments on him etc. even if it's their baby.

[Djentleman]

My point was that just because you never had something doesn't mean it can't be missed.

Yes I know exactly where you're coming from man. I had meningitis 3 times and due to the procedures to get me alright, I too lost a chunk of my eyesight and had a huge scar put across the top of my head. i can't really remember a time I was normal looking with reasonable eyesight, so I don't lose sleep over it. It's not to say I don't wish I had my eyesight back. But I don't miss it, because I never really recalled the feeling of having it.

[Gaybaby94]

It should be banned. It is a stupid religious ritual that has no purpose. I find it funny how people use cleanliness as an argument. One could have his foreskin and still keep it clean. I just think it is another aspect in life the religious like to control.

[StoppingTime]

It should be banned. It is a stupid religious ritual that has no purpose. I find it funny how people use cleanliness as an argument. One could have his foreskin and still keep it clean. I just think it is another aspect in life the religious like to control.

First of all, whether or not you believe in religion, saying "stupid", is just rude.
To religious people it does have a purpose, and you (or anyone) doesn't have the right to tell them they can't.
Is it changing or bothering you in any way?

[Gaybaby94]

First of all, whether or not you believe in religion, saying "stupid", is just rude.
To religious people it does have a purpose, and you (or anyone) doesn't have the right to tell them they can't.
Is it changing or bothering you in any way?

What purpose does circumcision do? Please tell me one legit reason?

[StoppingTime]

What purpose does circumcision do? Please tell me one legit reason?

Does it matter what you classify as "legit?"
It isn't just a religious practice by the way. More and more people are having it done because it is there preference.
Sure, there are times the kid might not always be happy with the decision.
There is foreskin restoration, if he was really that serious,
But like someone else said in the thread, it really has no advantage or disadvantage.
Why can you tell someone whether they can or cannot make that decision?

[Gaybaby94]

Does it matter what you classify as "legit?"
It isn't just a religious practice by the way. More and more people are having it done because it is there preference.
Sure, there are times the kid might not always be happy with the decision.
There is foreskin restoration, if he was really that serious,
But like someone else said in the thread, it really has no advantage or disadvantage.
Why can you tell someone whether they can or cannot make that decision?

if you want to use that logic, then what makes it right for someone to say I cannot marry? With circumsicion, there are high chances for injury, excessive bleeding, and infections. the foreskin is indeed a male sexual part. Consider it the male clitoris. The foreskin has many nerve endings that allows for a deeper sensation during intercourse, allowing the male to make the experience much more pleasurable and gets the job done faster. <a href="http://www.duke health.org/health_library/advice_from_doctors/your_child's_health/circumcision">

[StoppingTime]

if you want to use that logic, then what makes it right for someone to say I cannot marry?

It isn't right.


With circumsicion, there are high chances for injury, excessive bleeding, and infections.


Weird. The article you gave me said:
Bleeding (which of course will happen, you are cutting something off :roll eyes:)
Local infection (Which is not usually overly harmful)
Injury (which is quite rare according to the article)


the foreskin is indeed a male sexual part. Consider it the male clitoris. The foreskin has many nerve endings that allows for a deeper sensation during intercourse, allwoing the male to make the experience much more pleasurable and gets the job done faster. <a href="http://www.duke health.org/health_library/advice_from_doctors/your_child's_health/circumcision">
(You can't use HTML code)

In religion, it is not done for health reasons, so let me ask you again,
is it bothering you, or does it concern you?
There are also quite a few pros listed on the site you provided, so it could potentially be helpful.

I am not arguing that it should be done, honestly, it isn't any of my business or decision what other parents want to do, but how can you want a personal decision like that banned?

[Genghis Khan]

My point was that just because you never had something doesn't mean it can't be missed.

Why anyone would miss extra skin on the tip of their dick is beyond me.

[kenoloor]

if you want to use that logic, then what makes it right for someone to say I cannot marry? With circumsicion, there are high chances for injury, excessive bleeding, and infections. the foreskin is indeed a male sexual part. Consider it the male clitoris. The foreskin has many nerve endings that allows for a deeper sensation during intercourse, allowing the male to make the experience much more pleasurable and gets the job done faster. <a href="http://www.duke health.org/health_library/advice_from_doctors/your_child's_health/circumcision">

The foreskin is equivalent to the hood of the clitoris, not the clitoris itself. The clitoris and the head of the penis are analogous structures.
Am I the only one who chuckled when I saw that Dr. Wiener wrote that article?

[Gaybaby94]

Why anyone would miss extra skin on the tip of their dick is beyond me.

I miss it. If a "god" even existed, then he "created" us to have foreskin, therefore it shall not be circumcised because it is a part of the human body and the action is yet another aspect of religious hypocrisy.

[StoppingTime]

I miss it. If a "god" even existed, then he "created" us to have foreskin, therefore it shall not be circumcised because it is a part of the human body and the action is yet another aspect of religious hypocrisy.

If you dont even understand the reason behind circumcision in Judaism, you shouldn't be bashing it.

It was to keep the Covenant between God and Abraham, and his decendants.

With that aside, like I said, and others have,
it is not an organ you need to survive. It isn't even an organ!

You have yet to show me a logical reason it should be banned. Sure, things very rarely happen in complications with the procedure , but that is found in just about any. Should we ban them all?


And also, phimosis is a potentially serious condition, which you obviously cannot have if you are circumcised.

[Gaybaby94]

If you dont even understand the reason behind circumcision in Judaism, you shouldn't be bashing it.

It was to keep the Covenant between God and Abraham, and his decendants.

With that aside, like I said, and others have,
it is not an organ you need to survive. It isn't even an organ!

You have yet to show me a logical reason it should be banned. Sure, things very rarely happen in complications with the procedure , but that is found in just about any. Should we ban them all?


And also, phimosis is a potentially serious condition, which you obviously cannot have if you are circumcised.

We keep complaining that Sam sex couples should have the right to marry, or women have the right to abortions. What about the child's right to keep his foreskin? My right went away as well as my foreskin and I never was happy about it. I want to make sure little boys have the right to keep their foreskin!

[StoppingTime]

We keep complaining that Sam sex couples should have the right to marry, or women have the right to abortions. What about the child's right to keep his foreskin? My right went away as well as my foreskin and I never was happy about it. I want to make sure little boys have the right to keep their foreskin!

How could you possibly compare things like same sex marriage and abortion, two life changing matters, to this?
They are nothing alike, and cannot be used in comparison.

[kenoloor]

How could you possibly compare things like same sex marriage and abortion, two life changing matters, to this?
They are nothing alike, and cannot be used in comparison.

This, basically. This is really a non-issue. There are much more important issues that have a substantially larger (and more legitimate) affect on a greater population, i.e: the economy.

[canadaski]

This, basically. This is really a non-issue. There are much more important issues that have a substantially larger (and more legitimate) affect on a greater population, i.e: the economy.

Are you telling me that circumcision has no effect on the economy? Have you any idea how much it costs to perform? The money is coming from some place and going to another. The transaction should never have occurred as the surgery is completely unnecessary.

So far, people have been arguing that having a foreskin has no benefits (which isn't true). They've also "concluded" routine infant circumcision has no real benefits. Why perform a costly procedure based off of neutral feelings.

If it doesn't need to be done, it shouldn't be done. If for whatever reason it does need to be done, then perform the surgery. The problem is that 97% of the people that get the procedure done do not need it. If someone who is old enough to make the choice really wants it done then let them pay for it out of pocket as an uninsured expense.

[Jupiter]

Better sooner than later?

[User Deleted]

Y'know? I used to think it should be banned. But in truth, it is a harmless procedure (as has been said) that does not infringe upon your physical capabilities. There are also reverse procedures to restore it if it matters THAT much to someone. On addition there are numerous health benefits to it.

[Korashk]

I'm going to quote myself here:

...This is what a lot of people don't get:

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CIRCUMCISION!

The actual circumcision part is incidental to the real issue. It doesn't matter. It's about body sovereignty and what another person should be allowed to force you to do.