Prayer

[jonte95]

Hi,

Why do you say prayers can't heal a person? Some/one of you said so in the locked thread "Christ for Atheists.

How do we know medicines can take away headache?
Maybe they just make us think we don't feel any pain?

If there's a way to proove that medication can cure headache,
with like, watching brain activity or something (before and after medicine).

And same method with before and after FAITHFUL prayer.

Just because we can't prove everything doesn't mean it's wrong, that our God and Jesus doesn't exist and so. God is so smart, we can't comprehend. So the Bible is not supposed to be logic and so, it contains spiritual truth. It's good to read it prayerfully, it can reveal itself then.

Can we even prove that earth is round? Unless we go to space? Who says those pictures NASA show can't be photoshopped, and the gravity theories and stuff just made up?

You know, if everything was logical and fitted everyones thinking, then where would FAITH come in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDFepQFCLbA

This man was stung five times by deadly box jellyfish whilst scuba diving off Mauritius.

Box jellyfish are among the most venomous creatures in the world.


Look at this cloud of glory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAg...eature=feedlik

Do you believe that everything just goes off (black), when you die?
Hi,

[Azunite]

Hi,

Why do you say prayers can't heal a person? Some/one of you said so in the locked thread "Christ for Atheists.

How do we know medicines can take away headache?
Maybe they just make us think we don't feel any pain?

If there's a way to proove that medication can cure headache,
with like, watching brain activity or something (before and after medicine).

And same method with before and after FAITHFUL prayer.

They were lying to us whole the time! Thank you sir! I shall cease taking medicines, and die of a mere flu.

[Genghis Khan]

Those views are the craziest things I've heard since the guy who claims if we get our energy from the sun then we must die when the sun goes down.

[embers]

How do we know medicines can take away headache?
Maybe they just make us think we don't feel any pain?

If you educated yourself on the science behind chemicals and how medicine actually works within the body you'd think differently.

Or maybe you wouldn't. You seem like that kinda guy.

Can we even prove that earth is round? Unless we go to space? Who says those pictures NASA show can't be photoshopped, and the gravity theories and stuff just made up?

There is absolutely no reason for them to. They are organisations of people JUST as curious as you or I about subjects like these. The theorems you talk about are put into practise by scientists every day. There's no point questioning their validity in the sense that 'Oh what if they made it up? Or what if it's actually God doing it?' because there's absolutely NO way to find that out, and instead of giving yourself some good foundation to go by, you're kicking that out from under your feet and standing by a completely bizarre and unsupported point of view / belief.

You're very paranoid about science. So much so that you're thinking incredibly illogically. Let me phrase this so that is the exact same style of question but in my favour.

How do you know the Bible isn't made up stuff? That you only get that 'feeling' or whatever because you THINK you're going to get it? That priests are just bullshitting? That people who are 'healed' are ACTUALLY healed by the medicine, or because their body happened to be able to deal with it?

Stretching to real extremes to the extent that your points become so illogical that most people on this forum and elsewhere will completely disregard them isn't the way to go about thinking. Man, I'd even say it's an unhealthy way of thinking. This whole God issue is so simplistic that it actually baffles me how people end up with such bizarre viewpoints. It's just a matter of logic / rational discourse, just like you would with ANY other issue, such as if you read a historical book claiming aliens ran the oil business.

You know, if everything was logical and fitted everyones thinking, then where would FAITH come in?

Because every person doesn't think logically. Religion originated as a result of people questioning their origin and the ultimate origin of the universe before they could even deduce simple things about the environment around them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDFepQFCLbA

This man was stung five times by deadly box jellyfish whilst scuba diving off Mauritius.

Box jellyfish are among the most venomous creatures in the world.


Look at this cloud of glory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAg...eature=feedlik

The second video didn't work for me. But as for the first - yeah, miraculous recoveries happen. I won't claim to know the science behind that, but all I can say is that people happen to be in the right situation at the right time for their body to be able to withstand things that could potentially kill - e.g, the dude who got struck by lightning an insane amount of times.

As for near-death experiences, obviously you can attribute those to hallucinations and the likes. On a global scale we've had this whole 'light at the end of the tunnel' scene so drilled into our heads so I wouldn't be surprised that the brain would wander into that territory during a near-death experience.

Do you believe that everything just goes off (black), when you die?

No, you die, your senses cease and you don't feel. It's pessimistic, but I'm sure you can draw some optimism from 'returning to the earth' as it were. I sure do.

[kenoloor]

No, there's no way to 100% prove that medications works. But, there's no way to prove that prayer cures stuff either. However, the science behind these medications is much more reliable than a storybook that was written a long time ago.

The difference between science and religion is this:
Science has a bunch of sources saying that the laws and theories it presents cannot be 100% proven.
Region has 1 source saying it can. Which it can't.

[deadpie]

Hi,

Why do you say prayers can't heal a person?

Because putting your hands together in a certain motion is not as effective as using actual medicine as far as I know, unless your using that motion with your hands to take the medicine that's supposed to make you feel better.

How do we know medicines can take away headache?

This is something I'd typically show to a fourth grader, but ok, why not.

How Tylenol Works. (http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5398586_tylenol-works.html)

Maybe they just make us think we don't feel any pain?

Who the fuck is this "they" that you're speaking of? People who make tylenol? Are you that uber paranoid? That is batshit crazy.

If there's a way to proove that medication can cure headache with like, watching brain activity or something (before and after medicine).

Sigh. Other than common sense, you can use things like this. (http://www.totalhealthbreakthroughs.com/2010/01/overwhelming-proof-that-natural-medicine-works/)

Also, ever heard of EBM? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine)

And same method with before and after FAITHFUL prayer.

Prayer is going to typically be like flipping a quarter. You get what you want, you might not. 50/50. Actually, a bunch lower than that.

Just because we can't prove everything doesn't mean it's wrong

If we can prove something is wrong than it's wrong. If we can prove something right it's right. If there's no proof for something it's probably wrong. If there's theories for something then it has a chance of being right.

It's like talking to my nine year old sister. Actually, she knows ten times as much as you do.

God is so smart, we can't comprehend.

I can comprehend your religion. In fact, I can debunk it if you want me to. Just say the magic word and I will make the longest post VT has ever seen of me destroying the Bible.

So the Bible is not supposed to be logic and so

And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. Ezekiel 4:12

"Logic"

Can we even prove that earth is round? Unless we go to space? Who says those pictures NASA show can't be photoshopped, and the gravity theories and stuff just made up?

You are a crazy skeptic. Why would you debate if you're just going to dismiss any proof as bullshit, then say the Bible is true, which has no pure proof?

Now, I'm going to copy/paste a long thing from this (http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/) very good source, which should help and I'd like you to actually prove to me that all of these things in this site are wrong.

(1) THE MOON
Now that humanity knows quite positively that the Moon is not a piece of cheese or a playful god, the phenomena that accompany it (from its monthly cycles to lunar eclipses) are well-explained. It was quite a mystery to the ancient Greeks, though, and in their quest for knowledge, they came up with a few insightful observations that helped humanity figure out the shape of our planet.

Aristotle (who made quite a lot of observations about the spherical nature of the Earth) noticed that during lunar eclipses (when the Earth’s orbit places it directly between the Sun and the Moon, creating a shadow in the process), the shadow on the Moon’s surface is round. This shadow is the Earth’s, and it’s a great clue on the spherical shape of the Earth.

Since the earth is rotating (see the “Foucault Pendulum” experiment for a definite proof, if you are doubtful), the consistent oval-shadow it produces in each and every lunar eclipse proves that the earth is not only round but spherical – absolutely, utterly, beyond a shadow of a doubt not flat.

Refer to the following image from Wikipedia for more details on what happens during a lunar eclipse:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Geometry_of_a_Lunar_Eclipse.svg/712px-Geometry_of_a_Lunar_Eclipse.svg.png

(2) SHIPS AND THE HORIZON
If you’ve been next to a port lately, or just strolled down a beach and stared off vacantly into the horizon, you might have, perhaps, noticed a very interesting phenomenon: approaching ships do not just “appear” out of the horizon (like they should have if the world was flat), but rather emerge from beneath the sea.

But – you say – ships do not submerge and rise up again as they approach our view (except in “Pirates of the Caribbean”, but we are hereby assuming that was a fictitious movie). The reason ships appear as if they “emerge from the waves” is because the world is not flat: it’s round.

Imagine an ant walking along the surface of an orange, into your field of view. If you look at the orange “head on”, you will see the ant’s body slowly rising up from the “horizon”, because of the curvature of the Orange. If you would do that experiment with a long road, the effect would have changed: The ant would have slowly ‘materialized’ into view, depending on how sharp your vision is.

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/300x110xantwalkingonanorange-300x110.png.pagespeed.ic.PbpQX49okl.png

(3) VARYING STAR CONSTELLATIONS
This observation was originally made by Aristotle (384-322 BCE), who declared the Earth was round judging from the different constellations one sees while moving away from the equator.

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/300x150xfieldofview1-300x150.jpg.pagespeed.ic.lucY8fiUZt.jpg

After returning from a trip to Egypt, Aristotle noted that “there are stars seen in Egypt and [...] Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions.” This phenomenon can only be explained with a round surface, and Aristotle continued and claimed that the sphere of the Earth is “of no great size, for otherwise the effect of so slight a change of place would not be quickly apparent.” (De caelo, 298a2-10)

The farther you go from the equator, the farther the ‘known’ constellations go towards the horizon, and are replaced by different stars. This would not have happened if the world was flat:

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/fieldofview3.jpg.pagespeed.ce.iLGtiYkkJN.jpg

(4) SHADOWS AND STICKS
If you stick a stick in the [sticky] ground, it will produce a shadow. The shadow moves as time passes (which is the principle for ancient Shadow Clocks). If the world had been flat, then two sticks in different locations would produce the same shadow:

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sunsticks1.jpg.pagespeed.ce.fwjGBX4dId.jpg

But they don’t. This is because the earth is round, and not flat:

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sunsticks2.jpg.pagespeed.ce.FC6GFr1ONA.jpg

Eratosthenes (276-194 BCE) used this principle to calculate the circumference of the Earth quite accurately. To see this demonstrated, refer to my experiment video about Eratosthenes and the circumference of the earth – “The Earth’s curvature is tasty!“.

(5) SEEING FARTHER FROM HIGHER
Standing in a flat plateau, you look ahead of you towards the horizon. You strain your eyes, then take out your favorite binoculars and stare through them, as far as your eyes (with the help of the binocular lenses) can see.

Then, you climb up the closest tree – the higher the better, just be careful not to drop those binoculars and break their lenses. You then look again, strain your eyes, stare through the binoculars out to the horizon.

The higher up you are the farther you will see. Usually, we tend to relate this to Earthly obstacles, like the fact we have houses or other trees obstructing our vision on the ground, and climbing upwards we have a clear view, but that’s not the true reason. Even if you would have a completely clear plateau with no obstacles between you and the horizon, you would see much farther from greater height than you would on the ground.

This phenomena is caused by the curvature of the Earth as well, and would not happen if the Earth was flat:

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/300x145xflatroundvision1-300x145.jpg.pagespeed.ic.bbyPOqkf0P.jpg

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/300x115xflatroundvision2-300x115.jpg.pagespeed.ic.KyOda4EG8D.jpg

(6) RIDE A PLANE
If you’ve ever taken a trip out of the country, specifically long-destination trips, you could notice two interesting facts about planes and the Earth:

Planes can travel in a relatively straight line a very long time and not fall off any edges. They can also, theoretically (and some do, though with stops along the way), circle the earth.
Correction (Courtesy of Klaynos, from scienceforums.net): Apparently, planes can circle the Earth without stopping!
If you look out the window on a trans-Atlantic flight, you can, most of the times, see the curvature of the earth in the horizon. The best view of the curvature used to be on the Concorde, but that plane’s long gone. I can’t wait seeing the pictures from the new plane by “Virgin Galactic” – the horizon should look absolutely curved, as it actually is from a distance.
(A picture of the curved horizon from a Concorde plane can be seen here).

(7) LOOK AT OTHER PLANETS
The Earth is different from other planets, that much is true. After all, we have life, and we haven’t found any other planets with life (yet). However, there are certain characteristics all planets have, and it will be quite logical to assume that if all planets behave a certain way, or show certain characteristics – specifically if those planets are in different places or were created under different circumstances – our planet is the same.

In other words: If so many planets that were created in different locations and under different circumstances show the same property, it’s likely that our own planet has the same property as well. All of our observations show planets are spherical (and since we know how they’re created, it’s also obvious why they are taking this shape). Unless we have a very good reason to think otherwise (which we don’t), our planet is very likely the same.

In 1610, Galileo Galilei observed the moons of Jupiter rotating around it (click here to see a beautiful video reconstruction of his observations). He described them as small planets orbiting a larger planet – a description (and observation) that was very difficult for the church to accept as it followed a geocentric model where everything was supposed to revolve around the Earth. This observation also showed that the planets (Jupiter, Neptune, and later Venus was observed too) are all spherical, and all orbit the sun.

A flat planet (ours or any other planet) would be such an incredible observation that it would pretty much go against everything we know about how planets form and behave. It would not only change everything we know about planet formation, but also about star formation (as our sun would have to behave quite differently to accustom a “flat earth” theory), what we know of speeds and movements in space (like planets orbits, and the effects of gravity, etc). In short, we don’t just suspect that our planet is spherical. We know it.

(8) THE EXISTENCE OF TIMEZONES
The time in New York, at the moment these words are written, is 12:00pm. The sun is in the middle of the sky (though it’s hard to see with the current cloud coverage). In Beijing, where Michael Phelps is likely getting ready for yet another gold medal, it’s 12:00am, midnight, and the sun is nowhere to be found.

In Adelaide, Australia, it is 1:30am. More than 13 hours ahead. There, the sunset is long gone – so much so, that it’s soon going to rise up again in the beginning of a new day. Here’s a list showing what time it is around the world when it is 12:00pm in New York city.

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/300x136xtimezones1-300x136.jpg.pagespeed.ic.BBJNFYCHyb.jpg

This can only be explained if the world is round, and rotating around its own axis. At a certain point when the sun is shining on one part of the Earth, the opposite side is dark, and vise versa. That allows for time differences and timezones, specifically ones that are larger than 12 hours.

Another point concerning timezones, the sun and flat/spherical Earth: If the sun was a “spotlight” (very directionally located so that light only shines on a specific location) and the world was flat, we would have seen the sun even if it didn’t shine on top of us (as you can see in the drawing below). The same way you can see the light coming out of a spotlight on a stage in the theater, even though you – the crowd – are in the dark. The only way to create two distinctly separate timezones, where there is complete darkness in one while there’s light in the other, is if the world is spherical.

(9) THE CENTER OF GRAVITY
There’s an interesting fact about mass: it attracts things to it. The force of attraction (gravity) between two objects depends on their mass and the distance between them. Simply said, gravity will pull toward the center of mass of the objects. To find the center of mass, you have to examine the object.

Consider a sphere. Since a sphere has a consistent shape, no matter where on it you stand, you have exactly the same amount of sphere under you. Imagine an ant (perhaps the same one from the previous point) walking around on a crystal ball. Assuming the crystal ball is polished, the ant’s only indication of movement would be the fact it’s moving its feet. The scenery (and shape of the surface) would not change at all.

Consider a flat plane. The center of mass of a flat plane is in its center (more or less – if you want to be more accurate, feel free to do the entire [shriek] integration [shriek] process), and the force of gravity will pull a person toward the middle of the plain. That means that if you stand on the edge of the plane, gravity will be pulling you toward the middle, not straight down like you usually experience.

I am quite positive that even for Australians an apple falls downwards, but if you have your doubts, I urge you to try it out – just make sure it’s nothing that can break or hurt you. Just in case gravity is consistent after all.

Further reading about the center of mass and about distribution of mass can be found here. And if you are brave enough to handle some equations (not involving integration), you can learn some more about Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation.

(10) IMAGES FROM SPACE
In the past 60 years of the space exploration era of humanity’s history, we’ve launched satellites, probes and people to space. Some of them got back, some of them still float through the solar system (and almost beyond it) and transmit amazing images over to our receivers on Earth.

Here’s a list of some of the pictures we’ve seen from space throughout the years:

October 24, 1946: A group of scientists in the New Mexico desert saw the first grainy photo of the Earth. The photograph was taken from a height of 65 miles (104.6 kilometers) by a 35-millimeter motion picture camera riding on a V-2 missile.

August 14, 1959: First crude photo of the Earth from the Explorer VI satellite. The photo showed a sun-lit area of the Pacific ocean and cloud coverage. It was taken from about 17,000 miles (27,350 kilometers) above the surface.

June 5, 1966: Astronaut Eugene Cernan took this amazing picture of Gemini 9 and the Earth during his EVA (Extravehicular Activity). The spacecraft itself and Cernan’s “umbilical” (the cord that keeps him connected to the spacecraft’s systems) are visible on top of a beautiful background of the Earth.

August 23, 1966: First view of Earth from the Moon. This picture was taken by Lunar Orbiter I when the spacecraft was on its 16th orbit and was just about to pass behind the Moon.

December 29, 1966: A spectacular view of the rising Earth from the Moon, taken by the crew of Apollo 8 after coming out from the other side of the Moon, approximately 239,000 miles (384,000 kilometers) from Earth.

December 1, 1968: Photo of Earth from Apollo 8. This photograph was taken by an 80-mm lense, at a point very close to the Moon.

More Methods Throughout History

Abu Rayhan Biruni (sometimes known as “The Father of Geodesy“), has managed to calculate the circumference of the Earth using complex triangulation equations. I couldn’t find the actual calculation, or the method, so I can’t judge it this as a relatively easy “DIY” way to do it, but it’s still worth mentioning. If anyone has any more information about the method used, do post in the comments.
Bedford Level Experiment: At the Bedford river in Norfolk, England. The experiments were done initially in order to prove that the Earth is flat. Though the first results of this experiment seemed to agree with the flat-earth contention, later attempts to repeat this experiment agreed with the fact that the Earth is, in fact, spherical.

-------------------------------------------------

You know, if everything was logical and fitted everyones thinking, then where would FAITH come in?

Look, faith can be logical in the sense of somebody wanting to use faith to receive help, guidance through issues. Some people need faith and religion, or their own version of spirituality. The thing is, faith is not logical as a whole.

This man was stung five times by deadly box jellyfish whilst scuba diving off Mauritius.

Box jellyfish are among the most venomous creatures in the world.

Nevertheless, most victims do survive, and out of 62 people treated for Irukandji envenomation in Australia in 1996, almost half could be discharged home with few or no symptoms after 6 hours, and only two remained hospitalized approximately a day after they were stung.

Here's (https://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/xmas98/little/little.html) your source. Not a miracle.

Do you believe that everything just goes off (black), when you die?

This isn't every non-Christian believers theory of what happens after death you know.

As a type one diabetic, I can prove that medicine works. I'm alive. That's enough proof.

[Jess]

Hi,

Why do you say prayers can't heal a person? Some/one of you said so in the locked thread "Christ for Atheists.

How do we know medicines can take away headache?
Maybe they just make us think we don't feel any pain?

omg are you trying to persuade people again that you can pray and get, let's say...CANCER...cured?

Can we even prove that earth is round? Unless we go to space? Who says those pictures NASA show can't be photoshopped, and the gravity theories and stuff just made up?

are
you
freaking
kidding
me?

[jonte95]

If you educated yourself on the science behind chemicals and how medicine actually works within the body you'd think differently.

Or maybe you wouldn't. You seem like that kinda guy.


Well then they can see what happens in the body after prayer, since prayer can curse headaches etc.



How do you know the Bible isn't made up stuff? That you only get that 'feeling' or whatever because you THINK you're going to get it? That priests are just bullshitting? That people who are 'healed' are ACTUALLY healed by the medicine, or because their body happened to be able to deal with it?


So it is just a coincidence that the body happens to recover after prayer?
Also, it said in the bible for example that Israel would be a land flowing with honey and milk. Today, Israel's cows produce more milk than any other country's cows.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2011/September/Israels-Land-of-Milk-and-Honey-Prophecy-Fulfilled/

Also, look how much greenery Israel has, apart from other middle-eastern countries.
How blessed they are, 40 scud missiles fired, only 1 died from a direct missile, and keep in mind that Israel is a very small country. When one scud missile hit a US Military base, many died.

http://propheticvoice.co.uk/1991_Scud_Missiles_into_Israel


Because putting your hands together in a certain motion is not as effective as using actual medicine as far as I know, unless your using that motion with your hands to take the medicine that's supposed to make you feel better.


Where did you get that from? That you must put your hands together in a certain motion? It's just an act of respect, and same goes for closing your eyes.



Who the fuck is this "they" that you're speaking of? People who make tylenol? Are you that uber paranoid? That is batshit crazy.


They - the scientists and doctors or other people that can proove.




Sigh. Other than common sense, you can use things like this. (http://www.totalhealthbreakthroughs.com/2010/01/overwhelming-proof-that-natural-medicine-works/)

Also, ever heard of EBM? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine)


Well if they can see what happens in the body with those substances, when/if they go to the affected area, then they can see what happens in the body BEFORE and AFTER FAITHFUL prayer on a person with HEADACHE for example.


Prayer is going to typically be like flipping a quarter. You get what you want, you might not. 50/50. Actually, a bunch lower than that.


FAITH!




And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. Ezekiel 4:12

"Logic"


Read it in context. Again, it contains spiritual truth. It might have to be read prayerfully.

Have you tried seeking Jesus? Seek him with all your heart, pray that he'll make a change in you and reveal himself for you. I'm praying too.



Now, I'm going to copy/paste a long thing from this (http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/) very good source, which should help and I'd like you to actually prove to me that all of these things in this site are wrong.

Look, faith can be logical in the sense of somebody wanting to use faith to receive help, guidance through issues. Some people need faith and religion, or their own version of spirituality. The thing is, faith is not logical as a whole.


It says in the bible that earth is a circle.

omg are you trying to persuade people again that you can pray and get, let's say...CANCER...cured?

are
you
freaking
kidding
me?

Also yes it can be cured with FAITHFUL prayer. Look the miracles happening in Bethel church for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAgjH9cJQ&feature=related

[Jess]

Also, it said in the bible for example that Israel would be a land flowing with honey and milk. Today, Israel's cows produce more milk than any other country's cows.

heard of anything called freaking SCIENCE???

Also yes it can be cured with FAITHFUL prayer. Look the miracles happening in Bethel church for example:

load of freaking crap. cancer doesn't have a cure (yet). Praying CANNOT freaking cure cancer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bath]

"Those pictures the scientists showed us might be fake, don't believe them! Believe in something with absolutely NO proof instead!"

Logic, bro.

[Jess]

So it is just a coincidence that the body happens to recover after prayer?

Yeah. it's the MEDICINE that cured the body or whatever, not freaking prayer

[huginnmuninn]

if a person does "heal" after prayer it is only a coincidence or I will concede that prayer might produce a placebo effect on a person. i dont believe that "God" or "Jesus" healed anybody.

The only way that prayer can help a person is through the placebo effect

[Amaryllis]

Well then they can see what happens in the body after prayer, since prayer can curse headaches etc.
Never underestimate the power of self-deception. If you convince yourself of something i.e. that god will save you, it will happen. It's like if you tell yourself "I'm gonna trip and fall again cause I'm so clumsy." You will. If you say "I'm gonna be on time and have a great day!" Your mind will tune into that and do it.

Here is an article on what science says about prayer. (http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/avalos_17_3.html)

People wait years and years for god to create miracles and save them from cancer. But I can tell you, even the holiest of holies, popes and saints, will succumb to diseases in which only modern medicine can conquer. There are, of course, pros to believing in an almighty being and living a life of blind faith. But ignorance and arrogance isn't a good combo.

So it is just a coincidence that the body happens to recover after prayer?
Also, it said in the bible for example that Israel would be a land flowing with honey and milk. Today, Israel's cows produce more milk than any other country's cows.
Did you ever think perhaps Israel was -already- flowing with honey and milk when the bible was written? An eternity of destiny does not lie in a travel guide written by humans.

Also, look how much greenery Israel has, apart from other middle-eastern countries.
How blessed they are, 40 scud missiles fired, only 1 died from a direct missile, and keep in mind that Israel is a very small country. When one scud missile hit a US Military base, many died.
Some people trip and twist an ankle, some trip and whack their head against a table and die. It has nothing to do with some godly fulfilled prophecy.

Where did you get that from? That you must put your hands together in a certain motion? It's just an act of respect, and same goes for closing your eyes.
It's not "god" that creates these "miracles". It's the people who choose to believe that miracles -will- happen.

They - the scientists and doctors or other people that can proove.
You really need to pay attention in class. Better yet - read.

Well if they can see what happens in the body with those substances, when/if they go to the affected area, then they can see what happens in the body BEFORE and AFTER FAITHFUL prayer on a person with HEADACHE for example.
If you convince yourself your life is absolutely terrible - it will be. Because in your mind it is and you will act in a manner that generates more misery for yourself. 2 different people could go through the exact same things and one will be relatively happy and the other bordering on suicide.

FAITH!
Why? Why do you believe in the existence of god? If the bible said a cupcake circled the rim of saturn, would you believe it?

Read it in context. Again, it contains spiritual truth. It might have to be read prayerfully.
Who wrote it? Humans.

Have you tried seeking Jesus? Seek him with all your heart, pray that he'll make a change in you and reveal himself for you. I'm praying too.
Perceiving something that is not present = Hallucination
An idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by reality = Delusional

It says in the bible that earth is a circle.
Lol. Please tell me the bible was not written my mad psychopaths with schizophrenia and grotesquely overactive imaginations.
Found in: Judges 19:22-30

Within the Bible, one occasionally finds stories so horrible, one can wonder what their purpose is. Not only is this story utterly bizarre, but it is also absolutely disgusting. A man and his concubine are wandering the streets when they decide to seek shelter for the night, and find a man kind enough to let them stay. That night however, a group of men turn up at the door and demand to see the guest so that they may have sex with him. The owner is unwilling to let his male lodger be raped and so offers up his virgin daughter instead. However, this is still not good enough for the men, so the owner offers them his guest’s concubine and the men accept. The men brutally rape the woman and leave her on the doorstep where she bleeds to death. If that is not enough, when she is found by her husband, he chops her up into twelve pieces which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

The moral of this story? I would hope none.
So what does that teach us? Rape women, offer your daughter and abuse wives?


The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!"
Moral of the story: Do not disobey Jesus. Even if you're an inanimate tree.
[-]Maybe it's cause it wasn't the season for figs, bro.[/-]

Oh and did I mention there were -talking donkeys- in the bible?

Also yes it can be cured with FAITHFUL prayer. Look the miracles happening in Bethel church for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAgjH9cJQ&feature=related
People will believe what they wish to believe.

[Suicune]

God is so smart, we can't comprehend.

http://www.appliancist.com/ge-appliances-star-k-certified-sabbath-mode.jpg
Yeah, hi. This is a picture of a stove with a Sabbath Mode.

Sabbath Mode is a stove setting which presets a time on Friday to activate the heat on certain times during the Sabbath on Saturday or Sunday, because you know doing anything on the weekend is forbidden.

If he's so smart that we can't comprehend, then why can we find ways to get work done on the Sabbath even though he doesn't want us to?

[Jess]

It says in the bible that earth is a circle.

yeah. and it says bats are birds.

idk man

if you "idk" why did you bother posting here?

[Maxxie]

Wow. Your argument seems incredibly watertight!

A) Medicines that make headaches go away... make headaches go away.

B) People proved the curvature of the earth long before we even contemplated getting off the ground, much less flying into space.

C) Ever hear of a damned placebo effect?

D) Gravity theories are just "made up"? Try and go float away, see how that works.

Go pray cancer away.

[deadpie]

I know you're a troll, but...


Where did you get that from? That you must put your hands together in a certain motion? It's just an act of respect, and same goes for closing your eyes.

does that mean I can pray by any motion, like, urinating?

They - the scientists and doctors or other people that can proove.

So the people who put long hard work in saving other people's lives are actually evil lying bastards and God is the real one saving people. OOOOOOOOOHHHHH.

Read it in context. Again, it contains spiritual truth. It might have to be read prayerfully.

I have a Bible that contains nine different colors of sticky notes where I go for my quotations and all that exciting stuff. I've read it enough times.

Have you tried seeking Jesus? Seek him with all your heart, pray that he'll make a change in you and reveal himself for you. I'm praying too.

There was a time I was a "Christian", which was when I was a child. The last time I tried to "seek Jesus" was when I was nine years old being fucking in the ass with my hair being pulled. Jesus did not stop that. I prayed to him many nights asking for him to stop the pain that was bleeding out MY FUCKING ASS into a fucking shower drain.

I'm not going to live under some STUPID FUCKING ILLUSION. You want to know who got me out of that mess? I DID. NO FUCKING JESUS WAS THERE.

It says in the bible that earth is a circle.

Which I proved wrong to you in ten different ways. You are a fool if you disregard things you can TEST YOURSELF to be illusions.

Also yes it can be cured with FAITHFUL prayer. Look the miracles happening in Bethel church for example:

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how medicine isn't saving me when if I don't take my insulin I will fucking die.

Do you recommend that I stop taking it? You think I'll stay alive? For how long?

Are you telling me to... KILL MYSELF?

Should I kill myself because a Christian said prayer is more effective than medicine?

Well if the Earth is flat, I guess he's right!

Well, here goes everything! Hope he's right!

[Amnesiac]

It says in the bible that earth is a circle.

This is a perfect example of your absolute failure to address anyone's points here. "Faith"? That's bullshit. Some of the things that've been said in this thread... I have absolutely no words for. You're trying to come off as logical, but you're failing.

Please, have fun living in your fantasy world where science doesn't exist and God is the foundation for everything. However, this is a debate forum. The points you're raising can't be debated, because they're simply not true in any way. You've provided no evidence for your outrageous statements, and you're responding to all of these quality posts with ridiculous things like "FAITH!!!" and "It says in the bible..." The sources you're citing are beyond biased. Nothing you've said over the course of this thread can be taken as factual in any way whatsoever; the only way somebody could possibly believe these things would be to abandon all rational thought and take the crazy-train to Bible Town.

[jacknife]

Empirical (specifically, inductive) reasoning requires a certain amount of faith as well, but at least it attempts to give us a leg to stand on with which we can make viable progress towards our goals. It's called pragmatism.

No system is perfect - its all about trade-offs and making sacrifices where necessary in order to fulfill a specific teleology. Sometimes knowledge is part of that sacrifice, because you have to assume something to prove anything.

You could successfully argue, from your perspective and for your life, that faith is conducive enough to your happiness that it is worth pursuing despite its perceived short-comings.

So while you will never have much success arguing that prayer cures disease, the premise is not necessary to justify your faith. It's a losing battle, and superfluous to start; so I would recommend dropping it and moving forward with the aspects of your faith that are true for you and why they could be beneficial to other people.

Oh, and if it matters, I am an athiest. Always have been.

[Jess]

this is very old news, the news was posted in this thread (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51411). however I find it a great example of how prayer doesn't work AND WHY MEDICINE DOES

A man accused of killing his 11-year-old diabetic daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care has been found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted over the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes.

Prosecutors argued he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she could not walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called an ambulance when she stopped breathing.

Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict was read out in the courtroom in Wausau, Wisconsin.

Defence lawyer Jay Kronenwetter said they will appeal against the verdict.

Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realise how ill she was.

Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted of the same charge in the spring.

[jacknife]

Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed.
And this is when the seemingly innocent naivety of prayer becomes a serious threat.

[aperson444]

Maybe the people who wrote the Bible were nothing more than intelligent scientists who were able to combine logical hypotheses into moral stories that could appeal to the masses and instill order at the same time?

That seems to be the point of all religion: To explain the universe using known knowledge (at the time it was created) and use these known things to develop moral stories as well as strange exaggerations that might appeal to the masses following the religion (i.e wine to water, etc etc).

Medicine works by playing with biochemistry, namely receptors. For example, Tylenol and other analgesics work by binding to enzymes that control production of prostaglandins. We know these exist because isolated prostaglandins will affect cultured cells, although we did not know this when tylenol was initially synthesized. Another example is albuterol, which is the product of intelligent drug design. Someone discovered epinephrine injections help asthma attacks by dilating bronchial tubes, so some other intelligent scientist manipulated properties of chemistry like polarity and the such to engineer a compound that could MIMIC epinephrine.

[jonte95]

heard of anything called freaking SCIENCE???



load of freaking crap. cancer doesn't have a cure (yet). Praying CANNOT freaking cure cancer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes it can, through FAITHFUL prayer. I read about someone in the book 'More than conquerors by Terry Mize' who got healed from cancer on a hospital, before her surgery.

Are you a re-register? You sound familiar... also I wouldn't bother debating seriously with this guy because he's just trolling.
Hahahahah

No, I'm new here.




if a person does "heal" after prayer it is only a coincidence or I will concede that prayer might produce a placebo effect on a person. i dont believe that "God" or "Jesus" healed anybody.

The only way that prayer can help a person is through the placebo effect

Prayer doesn't work?

Jesus doesn't exist?

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until like one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.




Did you ever think perhaps Israel was -already- flowing with honey and milk when the bible was written? An eternity of destiny does not lie in a travel guide written by humans.


Exodus 3:7-17 and Exodus 13:5

Also, the Bible is God's word, he inspired men.



Why? Why do you believe in the existence of god? If the bible said a cupcake circled the rim of saturn, would you believe it?


Yes, it doesn't have to be logic.


People, read this testimony of this atheist, it must have happened a miracle since he just became a Christian like that:

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

[kenoloor]

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

When I was 9 I was visited by a strange being in the middle if the night. I had just come home from my dad's house where we had a shouting match because he didn't like the cupcakes I made for him. I was very upset, and I prayed to my broccoli shrine that night to help me overcome my hardships. Later that night I woke up at the sight of bright green light that seemed to be emitting from an object sitting at my desk. He said his name was Charles, but he didn't look like a human being. And at that moment I realized that Charles was who I had been praying to all this time. And he looked like a giant piece of broccoli. And he spoke to me and told me to be strong.

I personally experienced this. The broccoli god, Charles, exists irrefutably. Convert to my broccoli religion, O ignorant ones.

[Sugaree]

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until like one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.


Personal experience =/= undeniable proof. I've suffered from hallucinations before, and I know that whatever I saw wasn't real. You could have been dreaming, it could have been your mind projecting something that wasn't actually there. As I said, personal experiences is not a substitution for infallible proof.

[jonte95]

When I was 9 I was visited by a strange being in the middle if the night. I had just come home from my dad's house where we had a shouting match because he didn't like the cupcakes I made for him. I was very upset, and I prayed to my broccoli shrine that night to help me overcome my hardships. Later that night I woke up at the sight of bright green light that seemed to be emitting from an object sitting at my desk. He said his name was Charles, but he didn't look like a human being. And at that moment I realized that Charles was who I had been praying to all this time. And he looked like a giant piece of broccoli. And he spoke to me and told me to be strong.

I personally experienced this. The broccoli god, Charles, exists irrefutably. Convert to my broccoli religion, O ignorant ones.

Personal experience =/= undeniable proof. I've suffered from hallucinations before, and I know that whatever I saw wasn't real. You could have been dreaming, it could have been your mind projecting something that wasn't actually there. As I said, personal experiences is not a substitution for infallible proof.

My mum prayed that Jesus would tell me I don't have to be afraid, and he did. How is that a hallucination, is it just a coincidence, I get a hallucination 1 week after my mums prayer? Also, I was crying in despair and fear, and he just came to me.

People, look at this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150437971608711&set=pu.36976983710&type=1&theater

How come people who fall like that don't get hurt too? Because it's from the Holy spirit. Jesus is good.

Look how Jesus is moving in China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AoqIgd4eCik

The Holy spirit can move powerfully. There are many non-believers that would just cry on Christian conferences and concerts. Music is going to the heart. You should go to a Christian conference or concert and experience such things.

I know someone whose friend was a non-believer, they went to a Hillsong concert, the guy just fell down and cried before it even started.

Listen to this anointed song by Rick Pino:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvlioNJfrl4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC56A833C4F2E5F70

Look at this, a woman prophesied that Norway would start pumping up oil, which was indeed nonesense back then:

http://www.churchisraelforum.com/Jesus_is_coming_soon_suddenly.htm

[aperson444]

Why is Islam or Taoism or Hinduism "wrong" then?

[jonte95]

Why is Islam or Taoism or Hinduism "wrong" then?

They reject Jesus.

[Jess]

Yes it can, through FAITHFUL prayer. I read about someone in the book 'More than conquerors by Terry Mize' who got healed from cancer on a hospital, before her surgery.

no it CAN'T. why don't you pray faithfully to have every single person who has cancer be cured of it?

and did you even read this?


A man accused of killing his 11-year-old diabetic daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care has been found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted over the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes.

Prosecutors argued he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she could not walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called an ambulance when she stopped breathing.

Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict was read out in the courtroom in Wausau, Wisconsin.

Defence lawyer Jay Kronenwetter said they will appeal against the verdict.

Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realise how ill she was.

Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted of the same charge in the spring.

Also, the Bible is God's word, he inspired men.

sure it is. Humans wrote it.

They reject Jesus.

-_-

Yes, it doesn't have to be logic.

wow -_- so the Bible says bats are birds. you seriously believe that crap?

[Genghis Khan]

They reject Jesus.

Islam doesn't reject Jesus. The Qur'an accepts him as a Prophet of God/Allah/Yahweh. Same goes for all the other hundreds of Prophets; Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Mohammad, Jonah, David etc.

[Maxxie]

Oh spare us the bloody anecdotes. I read about a guy in a book that was raised from the dead by a supernatural force and continued living for a lengthy amount of time, possessing great strength and drive, and wanting to convert the world.

This story occurs in both the Bible and a large amount of Zombie fiction. Problem?

They reject jesus

Fuck off. You reject their fucking gods, so why is your sense of faith more fucking valid than theirs?

But, you see, I can't get you to SEE that kind of logic, because you cannot be OBJECTIVE about faith.

Oh, and by the bloody way... if the Bible, or any other religious text, is so completely profound on all macroexistential concepts, why does it only concern itself with questions of the day and age (curvature of the earth, et cetera ad nauseum), and not with the questions of the future (microbiology, chemistry, computer sciences, et cetera ad nauseum). Does it completely forsake the future, or are we supposed to believe in the personal stories of manuscripts written on pieces of parchments thousands of years before you were even remotely converged as a group of atoms to form a tiny little sperm cell?

If I showed you a 1500+ page manuscript, written by hundreds, if not thousands of authors, that chronicled the histories of a culture and a faith, through migration, slavery, and turmoil, and said that it was "divinely inspired", would you believe me?

Go read the Vedas and get back to me on that.

P.S. Jesus was probably rather falcon-headed. He had a nickname, want to know what it was? Horus.

(( The only way I can seem to get a point across is by dry, incredibly rude sarcasm. As the internet is completely anonymous, I reserve the right to act like a total dick to everyone who doesn't agree with me.

Another example of my dry, incredibly rude sarcasm. I feel like a brit. ))

P.S.S "I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs."

Guess who that quote's from?

Escaped slave Frederick Douglass.

[huginnmuninn]

Prayer doesn't work?

Jesus doesn't exist?

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until like one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.

prayer does work... in a placebo effect sort of way.

yes jesus exists i have a guy that goes to my school whose name is jesus. A Jezus of Nazareth (Ive started hate the term jesus "christ") probably did exist too but i dont believe he was the son of god.

lets look at youre supposed viewing of jesus in a logical way. you probably overheard youre mom sleeping and as a result youre subconscious created a "vision" that showed you what was going on. if she had been doing this for a long time then it is more likely that while you were asleep you overheard her praying for you and youre subconscious decided to show it too you.
Or even more simply youre subconscious decided to give you a pep talk in the form of a being that you obviously trust and the fact that youre mom had been praying for you is simply a coincidence

[Sugaree]

My mum prayed that Jesus would tell me I don't have to be afraid, and he did. How is that a hallucination, is it just a coincidence, I get a hallucination 1 week after my mums prayer? Also, I was crying in despair and fear, and he just came to me.

And I'm visited by a magical talking turd every Christmas Eve. Religious experiences are void because there is little to no proof that they are actually true. You're taking people who say they saw Christ in front of them or the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich for their word. You can't do that. You're trying to be logical and it isn't working. Give me proof that does not rely on personal experience - and that includes personal experience of others, be it a modern day account or biblical passage - that explicitly states that religious visions are, in fact, real.

I'm an agnostic, and I can't take this "I SAW JESUS!" bullshit seriously. There's no way that there is no medical examination first. Looking through the eyes of faith leaves more questions than answers. And don't come back at me and say "FAITH!!!" because faith is not truth. Truth lies in proof and proof lies in experimentation. Go on, we're waiting.

[Amnesiac]

Yes it can, through FAITHFUL prayer. I read about someone in the book 'More than conquerors by Terry Mize' who got healed from cancer on a hospital, before her surgery.

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until like one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus

People, read this testimony of this atheist, it must have happened a miracle since he just became a Christian like that:

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

My mum prayed that Jesus would tell me I don't have to be afraid, and he did. How is that a hallucination, is it just a coincidence, I get a hallucination 1 week after my mums prayer? Also, I was crying in despair and fear, and he just came to me.

People, look at this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150437971608711&set=pu.36976983710&type=1&theater

How come people who fall like that don't get hurt too? Because it's from the Holy spirit. Jesus is good.

Look how Jesus is moving in China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AoqIgd4eCik

The Holy spirit can move powerfully. There are many non-believers that would just cry on Christian conferences and concerts. Music is going to the heart. You should go to a Christian conference or concert and experience such things.

I know someone whose friend was a non-believer, they went to a Hillsong concert, the guy just fell down and cried before it even started.

Listen to this anointed song by Rick Pino:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvlioNJfrl4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC56A833C4F2E5F70

Look at this, a woman prophesied that Norway would start pumping up oil, which was indeed nonesense back then:

http://www.churchisraelforum.com/Jesus_is_coming_soon_suddenly.htm


NONE OF THIS IS RELIABLE EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING AT ALL. PLEASE STOP USING NON-SOURCES LIKE THIS. THEY ARE CLEARLY BIASED.

Personal testimony is not evidence. Pictures on Facebook are not evidence. Obviously biased YouTube videos are not evidence. Slanted Christian forums are not evidence. Books by people who mistake hallucinations for fact are not evidence. Books by people who exploit religion for money are not evidence. None of this is reliable at all.

[Amaryllis]

Yes it can, through FAITHFUL prayer. I read about someone in the book 'More than conquerors by Terry Mize' who got healed from cancer on a hospital, before her surgery.

No, I'm new here.

Prayer doesn't work?

Jesus doesn't exist?

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until like one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.

Exodus 3:7-17 and Exodus 13:5

Also, the Bible is God's word, he inspired men.

Yes, it doesn't have to be logic.

People, read this testimony of this atheist, it must have happened a miracle since he just became a Christian like that:

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html
"In the 14th century, over a third of the population of Europe died from the plague. Millions of people perished, and God did not heal them.

From 1918 to 1920, over 50 million people around the world died from a flu pandemic, and God did not cure them.

Throughout World War II, over 10 million people were systematically killed by Nazi Germany, and God did nothing to stop this.

In 1994, hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda were killed because of their ethnicity, and God did not save them.

Every year, 2,000 children die of cancer that God will not cure. Every day, a hundred thousand people die as a result of starvation and malnutrition, and God does nothing.

So what does this say about God, when he's able and willing to reach into our world and change things as he sees fit, and this is what he allows to happen? This is a God who stands silent when faced with the deaths of millions, knowing perfectly well that he could stop all of it, and instead, he chooses to heal a handful of random people.

That is our sign from God: a great big middle finger.

If we're expected to believe in this god, I believe he is irresponsible in a cosmic sense. I believe he is a god of false hope, a god who cures a few dozen people, leading millions to think he might help them too—and he doesn't. I believe this god is negligent beyond belief, and should he exist, he is not even remotely deserving of our praise. He is perfectly careless, profoundly indifferent, and his priorities are shameful. If this is the god you want us to worship, I want you to come to your senses."
f1KkKg3YPQA


My mum prayed that Jesus would tell me I don't have to be afraid, and he did. How is that a hallucination, is it just a coincidence, I get a hallucination 1 week after my mums prayer? Also, I was crying in despair and fear, and he just came to me.

People, look at this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150437971608711&set=pu.36976983710&type=1&theater

How come people who fall like that don't get hurt too? Because it's from the Holy spirit. Jesus is good.

Look how Jesus is moving in China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AoqIgd4eCik

The Holy spirit can move powerfully. There are many non-believers that would just cry on Christian conferences and concerts. Music is going to the heart. You should go to a Christian conference or concert and experience such things.

I know someone whose friend was a non-believer, they went to a Hillsong concert, the guy just fell down and cried before it even started.

Listen to this anointed song by Rick Pino:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvlioNJfrl4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC56A833C4F2E5F70

Look at this, a woman prophesied that Norway would start pumping up oil, which was indeed nonesense back then:

http://www.churchisraelforum.com/Jesus_is_coming_soon_suddenly.htm
Bias, bias and more bias. Hey, it's almost as bias as this:
5F5j0Yy_rEk

[jonte95]

Islam doesn't reject Jesus. The Qur'an accepts him as a Prophet of God/Allah/Yahweh. Same goes for all the other hundreds of Prophets; Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Mohammad, Jonah, David etc.

They reject him as God's son.

no it CAN'T. why don't you pray faithfully to have every single person who has cancer be cured of it?
and did you even read this?
sure it is. Humans wrote it.
-_-
wow -_- so the Bible says bats are birds. you seriously believe that crap?

2 Timothy 3:16

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right."

It is the Holy Spirit who guided the men who wrote the Scriptures. The Bible is the Word of God.


NONE OF THIS IS RELIABLE EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING AT ALL. PLEASE STOP USING NON-SOURCES LIKE THIS. THEY ARE CLEARLY BIASED.

Personal testimony is not evidence. Pictures on Facebook are not evidence. Obviously biased YouTube videos are not evidence. Slanted Christian forums are not evidence. Books by people who mistake hallucinations for fact are not evidence. Books by people who exploit religion for money are not evidence. None of this is reliable at all.

So go to a conference/concert and witness people falling down like that then, the holy spirit is powerful.

"[/B] In the 14th century, over a third of the population of Europe died from the plague. Millions of people perished, and God did not heal them.

From 1918 to 1920, over 50 million people around the world died from a flu pandemic, and God did not cure them.

Throughout World War II, over 10 million people were systematically killed by Nazi Germany, and God did nothing to stop this.

In 1994, hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda were killed because of their ethnicity, and God did not save them.

Every year, 2,000 children die of cancer that God will not cure. Every day, a hundred thousand people die as a result of starvation and malnutrition, and God does nothing.

So what does this say about God, when he's able and willing to reach into our world and change things as he sees fit, and this is what he allows to happen? This is a God who stands silent when faced with the deaths of millions, knowing perfectly well that he could stop all of it, and instead, he chooses to heal a handful of random people.

That is our sign from God: a great big middle finger.

If we're expected to believe in this god, I believe he is irresponsible in a cosmic sense. I believe he is a god of false hope, a god who cures a few dozen people, leading millions to think he might help them too—and he doesn't. I believe this god is negligent beyond belief, and should he exist, he is not even remotely deserving of our praise. He is perfectly careless, profoundly indifferent, and his priorities are shameful. If this is the god you want us to worship, I want you to come to your senses."


Bias, bias and more bias. Hey, it's almost as bias as this:


It's not his fault. Maybe if they prayed, he'd help them.

Check those links:
http://www.tearstojoyministries.org/Science_Proves_the_Bible.html
http://www.tearstojoyministries.org/Scientific_Proof.html
http://www.tearstojoyministries.org/Mathamatical_numeric.html

Ivan Panin was born in Russia on December 12, 1855 and as a young man he was an active Nihilist, one who was so "turned off" by the inane circumstances surrounding him that he adopted the attitude that all values were worthless and nothing was knowable or communicable. He apparently detested the Czarist government so much that he participated in various plots against it and eventually was forced into political exile. From there he moved to Germany where he spent a number of years furthering his education. When he left Germany he immigrated to the United States and soon entered Harvard University where he became the personal friend of both the famous professor William James and the University. s President Eliot.

Mr. Panin was a brilliant scholar and a Master of Literary Criticism. After graduating from college he became an outstanding lecturer on the subject of literary criticism and toured the country speaking on Carlyle, Emerson, Tolstoy, Russian literature, etc., receiving up "top dollar" for each address, which shows us the caliber of his talent. His lectures were delivered on college campuses and to exclusive literary clubs in many cities of the United States and Canada. And during those years of travel and exposure to the public, Mr. Panin became widely known as a confirmed agnostic, so well known, in fact, that when he renounced agnosticism and embraced Jesus Christ, several newspapers carried banner headlines announcing his conversion! Upon hearing of this remarkable turn of events, Professor James, who was reputed to be the greatest Metaphysician of his day remarked, "What a pity that Mr. Panin is cracked on religion. A great philosopher was spoiled in him."

Prior to his life-changing encounter with Jesus Christ, Mr. Panin wrote some three thousand aphorisms (brief statements of principle) and many outstanding essays, which stand today as a memorial to his days as a Master of Literary Criticism. He also was an editor of two daily newspapers, a gifted writer, and an eloquent speaker.

What event made this brilliant and gifted man, one firmly convinced that absolute truth ("God") was unknowable, change his mind? What so challenged his intellect and shook him to the very core of his being that he was left with no alternative but belief in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior? The answer is this: He made THE SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY THAT SHOULD HAVE SHAKEN THE ENTIRE WORLD! (The fact that it has not yet done so and has been quietly disregarded by those who should have been its greatest advocates is one of the great mysteries of our time!)

One day in 1890, Mr. Panin was casually reading the first verse of the Gospel of John in the original Koine Greek. This verse, in the original, says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God." And as he read this sentence, his curiosity was stirred by the fact that the definite article "the" preceded "God" in the first instance, but not the second. Why the difference? To analyze this apparent discrepancy, he made a parallel list of all verses in the New Testament in which the word "God" occurs with the article "the" and all those without it. Then when he compared the two lists he noted that there was a mathematical relationship between the two sums. Next, he went through the same procedure for the word "Christ" and on through several other words. each time taking note of the amazing numeric relationships hidden beneath the surface of the text. This "chance" observation would later prove to have been a life-changing event as Ivan Panin enthusiastically pursued the newly-found and exciting discovery he later named "Bible Numerics."

As these discoveries began to unfold, one after another, Mr. Panin quickly came to the realization that they were far more than just coincidence. There was a mathematical precision inherent to the entire Bible that no mere mortal could have devised and his intellectual objections relative to an unknowable God were overruled! Jesus Christ revealed Himself through His Word to this "chosen vessel" and, like the apostle Paul and a host of others, Ivan Panin was never the same man again.

From that day in 1890 until he died on October 30, 1942, Ivan Panin literally devoted his life (over 50 years) to fully developing this discovery and preserving it for the world. It is said of him that he worked tirelessly for 12-18 hours each day counting letters and words, compiling hand-written concordances, and working out mathematical problems. He worked with such zeal that on several occasions his health completely failed. But in spite of the tremendous mental and physical strain this placed upon him, he labored without pay, giving himself entirely to this labor of love. At one point he was offered the very tempting position as president of a college, but he turned it down trusting God to provide for his needs. This man whom the world would gladly pay "top dollar" for a lecture, chose a life of frugality in order to serve his Master by counting words, letters, syllables, and Bible numbers, preserving his findings in neat, hand-written notes now yellowed with age, all 40,000+ pages of them!

The following is a description of Dr. Panin by Mr. Karl Sabiers, in his book "Mathematics Prove Holy Scriptures." It was originally published in 1941, while Mr. Panin was still alive:

"This distinguished person is a man of extra-ordinary resources in scholarship. He is keen-minded and alert and possesses amazing analytical and dissecting ability. He is eminently open and scientific. He assumes nothing, but bases all on observed facts. facts of a positive, irrefutable, unparalleled sort. He pursues his way with calmness and is positive of the ground he covers. He is a complete master of himself and of the facts at his command.

"Mr. Panin is an ardent and devout Christian. a 'born again' child of God. His pleasing personality radiates the abiding presence of the Christ within. This refined gentleman and his lovely wife live quiet, humble lives on a small Canadian farm, far removed from the busy city activities. Mr. Panin is very modest and conservative. He prefers to be called Mr. Panin rather than Dr. Panin, and is reluctant about publicizing facts concerning his own life story. He points out that the Apostles left little or no life stories of themselves, but exalted Christ instead. Incidentally, Mr. Panin is a citizen of the United States."

In order to gain a proper understanding of the enormity of Dr. Panin's work, we must realize that he "started from scratch," so to speak. The mathematical precision required of his labors necessitated reference works that for all intents and purposes were non-existent! The first thing he had to do was compile a library of "tools" with which to work and he had to make them himself. Try to imagine, if you can, the extreme difficulty that Dr. James Strong encountered in compiling his "Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible," where each and every word of consequence in the entire Bible was carefully noted, recorded, collated, etc., while corresponding Hebrew and Greek definitions (with assigned numbers) were given as well.

Yet, this Herculean task does not measure up to that task which confronted Dr. Panin! He had to compile his own unique concordance before he could begin work! Not only did the words of the original Greek texts have to be arranged into a systematic and workable concordance, but a very special concordance at that one in which each letter of the respective language was meticulously recorded, along with its numerical equivalent. The Hebrew and Greek cultures did not have a separate alphabet and numbering system as we do today. Their alphabet was also their numbering system each letter having a corresponding number associated with it. So their calculations were actually manipulations of the various letters of the alphabet. (We will not attempt to give illustrations of these alphabets, or tables reflecting their respective values, deferring instead to the various authors' books which list them.)

Additionally, vocabularies and other Bible analyses had to be compiled with a special view to absolute accuracy, down to the smallest detail. The first result was a thousand-page concordance listing every one of the 137,903 occurrences of the New Testament Koine Greek words. They are all in alphabetical order and every reference to chapter and verse is neatly listed beneath each word in hand-written entries. The reason this was made necessary was the fact that the very best Greek concordances in print at that time were just too inaccurate for Dr. Panin' s purposes! Next, Dr. Panin felt the need for a concordance listing all of the various forms of the Greek words, so he created another concordance of 2000 pages twice as large as the first! Six years of tedious and time-consuming labor were required for these two "tools."

After that, other books containing the vocabulary words of the Greek New Testament were also compiled, in which each word was listed along with 16 columns of numeric data related to that word. Four columns containing the order number, place value, numeric value, etc. precede each word. Behind each word are 12 columns containing the number of occurrences, number of forms, syllables, letters, writers, books, diphthongs, etc. The completion of the vocabulary required an additional two years. But through all of the years of tedious and mentally taxing labor, Dr. Panin was not the only one who did not receive a salary. All of the secretarial assistance he received was done voluntarily as well.

The result of this lifetime of effort was a "NUMERIC GREEK NEW TESTAMENT" and a "NUMERIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT", both of which are commendable and scholarly pieces of work. The concise text of both testaments were established by means of the numeric designs discovered by Dr. Panin, designs that completely and literally permeate the whole of Scripture.

THE STORY OF THE TWO TESTAMENTS

At this point we probably need to explain why this would have been deemed necessary in the first place. And why just the New Testament? Wouldn't the Old Testament require this same type of revision as well? Let's answer the question about the Old Testament first. The Old Testament Scriptures were given by God through the pens of various men chosen by Him and were confined to the nation of Israel. The copying and transmission of these writings were handled, for the most part, by religious professionals and done under the most rigorous rules imaginable. Each line and each page had a numerical equivalent attached to it, the sum of the individual letters, and absolutely no mistakes were tolerated. If, for any reason a single line or page did not "add up" properly, it was discarded and burned. The task was approached with the greatest of reverence and it has been said that if the scribe encountered any of the numerous names of God, he would put down his pen, take a bath, change clothes, get a new quill pen and then very reverently write down the name. If the name of God came up in the same verse, he would go through the whole procedure again! With such scrupulous and meticulous care taken by professional scribes, we can see how the Old Testament was passed down to us with only a very few, and relatively minor, errors.

However, the New Testament is another matter entirely. Most of the original manuscripts were sent as letters to various individuals and churches, where copies were often made and passed on to others. Those who wished to have copies for their own use, either paid semi-professional copyists to do it, or often did it themselves. Little care was taken to maintain strict accuracy and many times just the kernel of the information was recorded. Persecution of Christians was commonplace and therefore any copying done had to be done quickly. Some copies were the result of personal recollection being written down, while others were made from the recitations of those who had heard the words spoken by a preacher. Because of this desire for and love of the Word, over a period of time quite a hodge-podge of manuscripts were floating around the Christian world. And at some point along the way, the original "autographs" the actual documents penned by the apostles and others were lost entirely. This was obviously God's intent, because depraved men would doubtless have given an inordinate amount of attention to them (bordering on worship)! They would have worshipped a version of the Bible, rather than the Creator!

To determine the exact wording of the originals, their chronology, and even if they were Scripture or not, educated and godly men had to compare the available texts with each other and against the Old Testament Scriptures quoted by them, to determine authenticity as well as accuracy of text. They did such a wonderful job, that over the years the New Testament Scriptures were settled with a very high degree of confidence and no doctrine left in doubt. Yet, the scholars still could not come to 100% agreement and a few relatively minor places in the Old Testament were debatable. To a certain degree this problem still exists today, but according to the findings of Dr. Panin, all question has been removed and the bickering should cease immediately! The whole of Scripture, down to the last "jot and tittle" has been determined through Bible numerics and as it turns out, precious little needed to be changed anyway! What is so amazing is that this final determining factor was published nearly sixty years ago, but Protestant leadership have ignored it. Yes, I know that "the powers that be are ordained of God" and God can certainly open their eyes any time He chooses to do so. Perhaps this is the time?

What is the so-called "heptadic" structure that Dr. Panin discovered? Simply stated it is this: genuine Scripture, both Hebrew and Greek. where the numbers equivalent with the letters are added up properly. at some point: word, sentence, paragraph, or chapter, will always be divisible by the number seven! And, beyond this, utilization of "place numbers" determines punctuation as well as proper chronology of the various books. This mathematical phenomena occurs and reoccurs only in Holy Scripture and thus rules out all that is spurious. For instance, the "Apocrypha", the fourteen books written during the 400 year "inter-testament" period between Malachi of the Old Testament and Matthew of the New, have no numerics whatsoever and are thereby revealed as being merely of man. Numerous Greek classical writings have also been checked with no evidence of Bible numerics found. Thus Dr. Panin determined that Scripture and only Scripture has this numeric "signature of Divinity" within it.

RE-ISSUING PANIN'S CHALLENGE

To his credit, Dr. Panin actively sought men whose academic credentials would qualify them to serve as his critics, but few even bothered to respond and those who did offered no rebuttal whatever. To this day, no one has come forward with any substantive rebuttal arguments and if any were possible, we feel that Satan would have rolled them out long before now! For that reason we are constrained to re-issue the challenge made by Dr. Panin three quarters of a century ago. The importance of this subject dictates that it should be totally acknowledged by the Christian academic community or else conclusively proven false and discarded. If it is valid, (and we believe that it is) to continue to ignore it would be unthinkable because the harmful division now taking place in the body of Christ over textual issues has gone on entirely too long.

WESTCOTT AND HORT -- OCCULTISTS

Interestingly enough, one of the main issues that keeps on surfacing in the "Which Bible is Scripture" debacle centers on the persons of Wescott and Hort. the nineteenth century mystical editors of the Greek text that provides the foundation for what some are calling the "modern perversions of the Bible". About these men's work, Dr. Panin had nothing but praise! Here is what he had to say about the value of their work:

"Without the aid of Wescott and Hort I could not have really done my work, because the text of the Authorized Version from my point of view -- not from the point of view of salvation or doctrine even, but from the textual point of view -- the text of the Authorized Version was useless to me, and for this reason: it has too many inaccuracies for my special purpose. Erasmus, for example, who was the Editor of the first Greek text in print was very anxious to get ahead of the Roman Catholic scholars who were issuing a Bible of their own; and he was in such a hurry that he used one MS. [manuscript] for the Book of Revelation and the last page of Revelation was missing in that MS. So what do you suppose Erasmus did? He simply concocted his own Greek for that page; he took the Latin Vulgate and translated it into his own Greek! So that the last page of the Authorized Version is a translation of Erasmus into Greek of a Latin inaccurate translation itself! Now, you and I wish to have an inspired page of the Bible, not one man's mere guessage. The Received Text has a great many suspicious readings of that kind. They do not affect doctrine or conduct seriously, because the great blessing of the Word of God is like the Lord Himself. if you only touch the hem of His garment, you can be made whole. God has seen to it that His blessed Book, no matter how distorted it is in any language sometimes the missionaries are at their wits end to know how to translate the word "God" nevertheless, the Word of God is so full of spiritual power, that if we only get the fringe of it to them, those dear heathen can be converted by it. But you and I wish to have the last page of Revelation as it was truly the inspired Word of God. Wescott and Hort based all their work largely on the Vatican and Sinai MSS., and decided that wherever the two MSS. agreed, that should generally settle the reading. Well, you know, there has been some doubt cast upon the Sinai MSS., because a very shrewd Greek copied a great many MSS. and tried to foist his own MSS. on the folk, so that has left a cloud on the Sinai MSS., and some people see fit to cast doubt on it even now, when there is the question as to whether the British Government did wisely to take part in its acquisition ... I have analyzed the Greek words for the Sinai and Vatican Codexes. I have here page after page of the numerics of those words in Greek. Whenever we wish to study numerics relating to our own affairs or life or anything else, we must always remember that the language in which God wishes us to count is Greek, because He left the name of the anti-christ in Greek. You and I will have to stand the test when anti-christ comes. The Holy Spirit has given us warning. "Be sure not to receive this mark of the beast upon you," because it will be the number of the beast upon ourselves. The Holy Spirit warns us that he is 666, that is, in Greek. You and I have to go to numerics in Greek when we wish to prove the correctness of a passage. The three words show striking numerics. There is a system there of sevens and nines at once on the blackboard. I have here page after page of the numerics of those three words. The Sinai Codex has a separate scheme of its own and the Vatican Codex has a separate scheme of its own."

"That is how God has set His seal on His book; so that by the aid of the text presented to us by Wescott and Hort, I was able to verify everything they stated, and verify all the doubtful readings, so that those two great MSS. can be established in such a way that no one can attack their authenticity. This is the testimony of numerics as to any aspersion on the Sinai Codex."

"My prayer is simply this. That God may make that blessed Book of His as precious to you as He has made it to me. It has been an inexpressible joy in my life to work these things out, simply because of the testimony of the majesty and the marvel of the loving-kindness of God vouchsafed in this Book unto our charge. Pray for me, and may the Lord bless you." (Ivan Panin, "Bible Numerics", pp.25-27, emphasis in the original).

From these statements made by Dr. Panin himself, he expresses an indebtedness to Messrs. Wescott and Hort for their work in editing a Greek text that, for the most part, stands up to the test of Bible numerics. However guilty these two men may have been in their involvement with the occult that involvement should not in and of itself mean that the Greek texts they edited were thus rendered unacceptable. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" and Dr. Panin testifies that their work stands the numeric test! A diamond is still a diamond even if it is found in a mud-hole.

(Editors note: The "King James only" people have tried to paint these lovers of the scripture as occultists. I have not seen proof, only slander and quoting of one another in their books. Anyone who has ever done a true work for God has been accused by the wicked traditionalists. Jesus and his apostles were. Those who accuse without two or three witnesses disobey God and take up a reproach against the brethren. Numerics proves the work of Westcott and Hort and the ancient manuscripts that they used as anyone who is honest and not prejudiced by traditions can clearly see.)

[Genghis Khan]

They reject him as God's son.

Which interestingly enough makes their religion more monotheistic than yours. Essentially Christianity is a failed excuse for believing in one God.

[Jess]

It's not his fault. Maybe if they prayed, he'd help them.

oh yeah it freaking is. God couldn't just be kind and HEAL THEM WITHOUT PRAYING. maybe some of them don't believe in God???

So go to a conference/concert and witness people falling down like that then, the holy spirit is powerful.

how the freaking hell do you know it's the "Holy Spirit"? give me solid evidence

2 Timothy 3:16

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right."

It is the Holy Spirit who guided the men who wrote the Scriptures. The Bible is the Word of God.

okay then. if you see someone working on a weekend, go and stone him/her. the Bible says to do that. if you see someone wearing two different fabrics, go ahead and stone him/her.

[jonte95]

how the freaking hell do you know it's the "Holy Spirit"? give me solid evidence


I meant a Christian conference/concert. Then it's the holy spirit. Go experience it.


okay then. if you see someone working on a weekend, go and stone him/her. the Bible says to do that. if you see someone wearing two different fabrics, go ahead and stone him/her.

That's the old testament.

The statement has been made, “the Scriptures are clear that we do not live under the New Covenant yet. The New Covenant era is described in Jeremiah 31. Go read it and explain to me how we’re in that era now. Secondly, the covenant with Adam is the same one we’re under now. It’s the same covenant as the one with Noah, with Abraham, with Moses, etc. It has been been renewed, not ended. Please read Matthew 5:13-20.”

As far as not being in the New Covenant. Jesus disagrees.
Luke 22:20

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Not only that, but we see in Hebrews 7 that the perfection could not be attained through the Levitical system, and there was a need for another priest to come. We also see in this passage that there was a change of the priesthood and in the law and that the Old Covenant (“former regulation”) was set aside.

Hebrews 7:11-19

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
”You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.” 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

We see in the next chapter of Hebrews that the priest spoke of in Hebrews 7 was actually Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:6

6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

In fact, Christ made the old covenant obsolete.
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

And in fact, the Levitical system of offering sacrifces in the temple DID disappear, when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.

We are living in the New Covenant, as we see in what Hebrews 10:14-18 tells us has occurred:

14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

What other evidence do I have that we are not under the the Torah? I find the need to offer sacrifices at the temple something we have been freed from. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time.
Hebrews 10:12

[Perseus]

Why are you people even trying?

[Amnesiac]

So go to a conference/concert and witness people falling down like that then, the holy spirit is powerful.

I give up. You're obviously missing the point. This is just fundamentalism at its finest; turning human beings with the potential to think logically into brainwashed morons who have absolutely no concept of what is knowledge and what isn't.

[aperson444]

Wasn't there some debate about how Jesus never really wrote the Bible, but rather it was edited and heavily worked on by one of his flock? Something about the original copies of the New Testament. If God is truly all-loving and unbiased, then what gives him the write to judge humanity? Isn't that the opposite of benevolence?

Is this what Christianity is about? Detesting other religions as false? Not even Jesus himself would agree with that. Hell, no Christian today follows a single one of Jesus's initial intentions. Those intentions were instill morals and kindness in the general public, to bring peace and love amongst one another in a time when oppression by the Roman Empire was it its peak. The Aramaic Christians have it right, but sadly they are few. What does it mean when you Christians support the state of Israel, when your own brethren (the Christians of Palestine) are being slaughtered, humiliated and starved?

You "Christians" know nothing about "God" or Jesus. You have forgotten the true meaning of the faith and swallowed up shallow rationalizations and petty arguments. Christianity is NOT about believing every word of the Bible. It's about being moral and good to fellow man. That's what the purpose of almost every religion is.

The reason I like Islam more than Christianity is this adherence to morals and strong sense of culture involved with Islam. Also, Islam does not see a "Holy Trinity", which pretty much makes it easy to pervert the Bible. Islam states the Muhammed himself spoke the words of the Qu'ran, rather than being inspired by a "Holy Spirit". Oh, and while Islam rejects Jesus as the son of God, I believe they also believe that Muhammed is not a son of God either. Rather, Islam views the two as important prophets of God, influenced directly by God.

Now, I am not Muslim or Christian. Technically I am Hindu (by way of my culture), but I choose not to acknowledge a single God or Gods. It's better to live your life as a good human being than to live your life by the words of another, even if that other is indeed "God".

Bottom line: Live your life to the best and be good to people around you. You don't NEED to believe, you just have to be an individual with a backbone. If God truly does exist, I am sure he/she/it would want that and not for us to constantly be worshiping him/her/it. Come on, let's stop arguing. Let's fucking LIVE.

[StoppingTime]

Quick question here OP, what is the mystical book you call "Hebrews"?

[Jess]

I meant a Christian conference/concert. Then it's the holy spirit. Go experience it.

you still haven't given solid proof

[huginnmuninn]

wait youre using the bible as a reference to the validity of the bible?
thats logical...

[Maxxie]

Like I said, you can't bring logic to faith. Faith is an entirely illogical concept, brought about by personal empirical "experience" and based on nothing except for that empirical experience. Therefore, I don't believe in it.

And if anyone can show me just one example in the history of the world of a single
Spiritual or religious person who has been able to prove either logically or empirically the existence of a higher power that has any consciousness or interest in the human race or ability to punish or reward humans for there moral choices or that there is any reason - other than fear - to believe in any version of an afterlife.... I'll give you my piano, one of my legs, and my brain.

[Church]

If I prayer to my Blackberry and ask for a raise, and I get a raise, does that make my Blackberry holy :o?

[BFG9001]

Jonte, what brought you into christianity? Parents? Friends? Stories?

[jonte95]

Quick question here OP, what is the mystical book you call "Hebrews"?

It's a book or "chapter" in The Bible.

you still haven't given solid proof

How am I to prove it better, than showing pics and explaining how people can just fall down like that without getting hurt. I said, if you want it proven for yourself, go to some Christian conference/concert, and experience it.

Why aren't such things happening on Rihanna's/Eminem's concerts? Or conferences arranged by other religions?

Rick Pino is playing in Mississipi and Georgia (IT'S FREE), if you're living near those states. The Facebook picture I showed to you was from one of his concerts, his music is prophetic and anointed, people fall down like that on more of his concerts. That's the holy spirit.

Jonte, what brought you into christianity? Parents? Friends? Stories?

My parents are Christians.

Also:

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.

When I was like 6/7/8 years, I stumbled on a pavement stone in the neighbourhood, and as I stumbled, a scooter was already on it's way down the street. So I got overrun and fell into a thornbush that was there, atleast I was told so. I didn't get hurt at all, the angels protected me, and a guy on bicycle saw the accident and wore me all the way home.

When I was like 8 or 9 years, a sudden loud flash of lightning hit the ground in the neighbourhood just a few steps away from me. I was protected.

When I was 14 years, I slipped on ice backwards and didn't get hurt, and 1 week prior to that I slipped sideways on ice. I didn't get hurt, you'd always hear people getting arms and legs fractured.

I praise and thank Jesus for everything.
I can never thank him enough!

Read my whole tesimony here if you want:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7605078/

[Amaryllis]

It's a book or "chapter" in The Bible.
I'm gonna write something called WoW and 5000 years from now, this will be a primary source - the turning point of humanity.

How am I to prove it better, than showing pics and explaining how people can just fall down like that without getting hurt. I said, if you want it proven for yourself, go to some Christian conference/concert, and experience it.
Been there, done that. Got over it the next day.

Jesus is like a boyfriend - you wanna fuck him for a while and then you get bored.

Why aren't such things happening on Rihanna's/Eminem's concerts? Or conferences arranged by other religions?
Bby boi, I've seen people scream, cry and trample on people over their love of justin bieber. And dooood. Have you been to a temple? Complete utter serenity - just people sittin' there going ommmmmm ommmmmm - the only time they move is when someone brings food.

Rick Pino is playing in Mississipi and Georgia (IT'S FREE), if you're living near those states. The Facebook picture I showed to you was from one of his concerts, his music is prophetic and anointed, people fall down like that on more of his concerts. That's the holy spirit.
People fall down in justin bieber's concerts.

He must be God.

My parents are Christians.

Also:

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.
Lol. And here we have dozens of child prostitutes praying to god, begging him to help them and rid them of their fears. We have starving people putting their faith in god and finally dying in a pile of desecrating garbage without ever being saved by god.

If god were real, he wouldn't be a god worth following or respecting.

When I was like 6/7/8 years, I stumbled on a pavement stone in the neighbourhood, and as I stumbled, a scooter was already on it's way down the street. So I got overrun and fell into a thornbush that was there, atleast I was told so. I didn't get hurt at all, the angels protected me, and a guy on bicycle saw the accident and wore me all the way home.
Lol, how about thanking the guy on the bicycle who saved you?

When I was like 8 or 9 years, a sudden loud flash of lightning hit the ground in the neighbourhood just a few steps away from me. I was protected.
How about being grateful for the ground next to you and the clouds for being positioned the way they were and the lightning for hitting the spot away from you?

When I was 14 years, I slipped on ice backwards and didn't get hurt, and 1 week prior to that I slipped sideways on ice. I didn't get hurt, you'd always hear people getting arms and legs fractured.
When I was 12, I lived in Rwanda and I was tutsi. Briefly. Then I decided not to be. Thank god for that!

I praise and thank Jesus for everything.
I can never thank him enough!

Read my whole tesimony here if you want:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7605078/
How about thanking the people who helped you get to where you are? How about thanking yourself? Taking your life into your own hands? Why must all the good that happens to you be the work of god? What about the bad? The work of satan? ^.~

Why on earth would god give a shit? Don't give me that "we are his children" bullcrap because you're one in several billion. He really doesn't care. Why would he save you of all people - if he could save thousands, millions and billions of others who are more deserving of his help?

A god who lets thousands of people die in war. A god who lets pedophiles rape children. A god who doesn't listen to the pleas of little ones getting beat up day and night. A god who lets millions of people suffer from mental illnesses. A god who sits by and watches as babies are tortured, raped, neglected and killed every day. A god who sits back as his children starve to death. A god who allows people to be killed and enslaved because of their skin tone. A god who encourages his children to discriminate against their sisters and brothers simply because they fall in love with someone who's the wrong sex.

A god as stupid, cruel and savage as this is not a god I wish to worship or believe in.

[Jess]

When I was like 6/7/8 years, I stumbled on a pavement stone in the neighbourhood, and as I stumbled, a scooter was already on it's way down the street. So I got overrun and fell into a thornbush that was there, atleast I was told so. I didn't get hurt at all, the angels protected me, and a guy on bicycle saw the accident and wore me all the way home.

suuuuuuuure. how do you know it was "angels" that protected you?

How about being grateful for the ground next to you and the clouds for being positioned the way they were and the lightning for hitting the spot away from you?

agreed!

My parents are Christians.

Also:

I saw Jesus when I was 7 years old, and I woke up crying after a nightmare. And a bit later, I saw this man (the room was dark) with a robe shining in light blue, his face shined in light blue too but not as powerful as his eyes did. Even though they were shining so bright I could still feel how nice and beautiful they were and calm nice eyes and the most still and nicest voice I've ever heard, and he said with an echoing and mighty, but yet a still and nice voice "You don't have to be afraid, Jonathan", and then he left.

What I didn't know until one week ago, to my surprise, was that my mum had prayed to Jesus "Please, tell him that he don't have to be afraid!". I had probably been afraid for a really long time. But I don't know how many times she had prayed, but she said my encounter with Jesus happened not so long after she had prayed, maybe like 1 week after or so.

yeah. well a lot of people pray and pray but they never ever get saved or helped or cured. some God! and why does one need to BEG AND PRAY to get help? Why can't God be very very kind and do it without the need of freaking praying?

How about thanking the people who helped you get to where you are? How about thanking yourself? Taking your life into your own hands? Why must all the good that happens to you be the work of god? What about the bad? The work of satan? ^.~

agree with this also

[jonte95]

yeah. well a lot of people pray and pray but they never ever get saved or helped or cured.


Don't ask me.

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.
-Deuteronomy 4:29


I'm gonna write something called WoW and 5000 years from now, this will be a primary source - the turning point of humanity.


Well it's not God inspired, however, the bible is.


Bby boi, I've seen people scream, cry and trample on people over their love of justin bieber. And dooood. Have you been to a temple? Complete utter serenity - just people sittin' there going ommmmmm ommmmmm - the only time they move is when someone brings food.


Well, those girls are teenage girls in love with an idol, also, do they get hurt when they fall with their head backwards? You can't compare that with people getting touched at Christian concerts and conferences.

What's wrong with people going to a people sitting in serenity? I like monk chants and choir chants.


People fall down in justin bieber's concerts.

He must be God.


Again, that's teenage girls who just listen to him and he's their idol and they love him. Again, if they'd fall down without noone catching them, they'd get hurt.

Also, it's not Jesus fault that people are starving and stuff, if they turned to him I'm sure he'd help them. Also, we humans can also help.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

We are living in the end-times, Jesus is coming soon as he warned to many people in testimonies.

Look at this video, Speaking in Tongues Medical Study proves Holy Spirit praying:

NZbQBajYnEc

Praying for you all.

[Jess]

We are living in the end-times, Jesus is coming soon as he warned to many people in testimonies.

again, load of crap. how do you know this?



and in the Bible, Jesus is quoted saying that a believer can ask for anything through prayer and receive it

[jonte95]

again, load of crap. how do you know this?



and in the Bible, Jesus is quoted saying that a believer can ask for anything through prayer and receive it

Because he has told people he's coming soon, and as you see, what's happening in the world now.

Yes, if you BELIEVE.

[Sugaree]

Yes, if you BELIEVE.

But how do you justify belief? Sure, it may be written in a book, but how can you be sure it's true? You're suffering from blind faith, meaning that you don't have any clue about anything and you're absolutely fine with that. And don't bother praying for us, it won't work anyway. If you want to do something useful, get off your knees and help someone.

[jonte95]

But how do you justify belief? Sure, it may be written in a book, but how can you be sure it's true? You're suffering from blind faith, meaning that you don't have any clue about anything and you're absolutely fine with that. And don't bother praying for us, it won't work anyway. If you want to do something useful, get off your knees and help someone.

Belief - as in have FAITH.
It will work, I have faith in that.

I've seen Jesus so I don't have blind faith, and he has done miracles, he healed my aunt's baby from epilepsy.

[Sugaree]

Belief - as in have FAITH.
It will work, I have faith in that.

But how do you justify your faith then? You don't get something out of thin air, that is basically your entire premise through this entire thread.

I've seen Jesus so I don't have blind faith, and he has done miracles, he healed my aunt's baby from epilepsy.

"Seeing Jesus" has nothing to do with blind faith. Blind faith is willingly following something without looking at it first. You're basically more than happy to follow a religion without going into the specifics and using the reason of faith to justify it. That doesn't work.

There is no evidence that Christ performed miracles other than 2,000 year old writings. Science was not around in the time of Christ, so people automatically believed in the "miracles" he performed. You're basically shrugging away all modern ways to cure disease. Why?

[Jess]

Because he has told people he's coming soon, and as you see, what's happening in the world now.

suuuure he did. where's your proof he actually told people - the people that live in this world TODAY - that?

It will work, I have faith in that.

it will not work. you can pray and pray, putting FAITH in, to make me convert to a Christian. and that will never happen.

Yes, if you BELIEVE.

really! so if a believer asks God to move mountains, it will happen?

[jonte95]

suuuure he did. where's your proof he actually told people - the people that live in this world TODAY - that?



it will not work. you can pray and pray, putting FAITH in, to make me convert to a Christian. and that will never happen.



really! so if a believer asks God to move mountains, it will happen?

What is that necessary for?

Matthew 4:7
"Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ "

NONE OF THIS IS RELIABLE EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING AT ALL. PLEASE STOP USING NON-SOURCES LIKE THIS. THEY ARE CLEARLY BIASED.

Personal testimony is not evidence. Pictures on Facebook are not evidence. Obviously biased YouTube videos are not evidence. Slanted Christian forums are not evidence. Books by people who mistake hallucinations for fact are not evidence. Books by people who exploit religion for money are not evidence. None of this is reliable at all.

Well, he was an avowed atheist etc. So don't you think something big must have happened to him since he just became a Christian like that? Think over it.

Also, did you read the article I showed you about the Russian guy, the links about the bible and maths, science, numerology.

-SORRY DOUBLE POST-

[embers]

Well, he was an avowed atheist etc. So don't you think something big must have happened to him since he just became a Christian like that? Think over it.

Also, did you read the article I showed you about the Russian guy, the links about the bible and maths, science, numerology.

-SORRY DOUBLE POST-

Have you realised that EVERY single "proof" you've given for your religion also applies to people of the Muslim and Hindu and a ton of other faiths? Concerts, visions, alleged healings, alleged apparitions, converting, etc.

[BFG9001]

I once dremt I had sex with a pornstar. Does that mean it really happened?

[Jess]

What is that necessary for?

Matthew 4:7
"Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ "

it says in the Bible that any believer's prayer will be answered! -_- so much for all prayers being answered!

[jonte95]

Have you realised that EVERY single "proof" you've given for your religion also applies to people of the Muslim and Hindu and a ton of other faiths? Concerts, visions, alleged healings, alleged apparitions, converting, etc.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

[kenoloor]

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So you're saying that Satan created Islam and Hinduism? Wait, really?!

[embers]

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

You'll find an exact paraphrase of that quote in even older religious texts than the Bible. Just because your book says it, doesn't mean it is true.

[Jess]

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

I agree what embers said. do you think every single thing your Bible says is true??

[jonte95]

I agree what embers said. do you think every single thing your Bible says is true??

Yes.

[Jess]

seriously?

how do you know it's all true?

[Jean Poutine]

http://scratch.mit.edu/static/projects/goldenwolf/1525266_med.png

[Jess]

But how do you justify your faith then? You don't get something out of thin air, that is basically your entire premise through this entire thread.



"Seeing Jesus" has nothing to do with blind faith. Blind faith is willingly following something without looking at it first. You're basically more than happy to follow a religion without going into the specifics and using the reason of faith to justify it. That doesn't work.

There is no evidence that Christ performed miracles other than 2,000 year old writings. Science was not around in the time of Christ, so people automatically believed in the "miracles" he performed. You're basically shrugging away all modern ways to cure disease. Why?

exactly this. why are you strugging away all modern ways to cure disease? and did you EVEN read that news quote I put about how a girl died because her dad just prayed to get her "healed" instead of getting medical help?

here it is again:

A man accused of killing his 11-year-old diabetic daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care has been found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted over the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes.

Prosecutors argued he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she could not walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called an ambulance when she stopped breathing.

Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict was read out in the courtroom in Wausau, Wisconsin.

Defence lawyer Jay Kronenwetter said they will appeal against the verdict.

Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realise how ill she was.

Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted of the same charge in the spring.

[jonte95]

exactly this. why are you strugging away all modern ways to cure disease?

here it is again:

I don't want to read it, maybe it was time for her to die.

So you're saying that Satan created Islam and Hinduism? Wait, really?!

He's decieving all non-believers, he does almost everything to keep ppl from Jesus.

You'll find an exact paraphrase of that quote in even older religious texts than the Bible. Just because your book says it, doesn't mean it is true.

Yes, the bible is true, Jesus is true.

[Jess]

I don't want to read it, maybe it was time for her to die.

omg HOW do you know it was her time to die? stop making stupid assumptions.

Yes, the bible is true, Jesus is true.

PROVE IT

[kenoloor]

Yes.

Slavery is totally chill. (Leviticus 25:44)
If I wear clothes with mixed fabrics, I'm going to hell. (Leviticus 19:19)
If you speak against your parents, you're fucked (dead, rather). (Leviticus 20:9)
Hope you don't eat steak...(Leviticus 7:23)
If someone is disabled or has some form of birth defect, they can't come near God's altar. (Leviticus 21:18)
Shall I continue...?

[jonte95]

omg HOW do you know it was her time to die? stop making stupid assumptions.



PROVE IT

I said MAYBE it was her time to die, I don't know, but Jesus exists.


Can't prove it, when all links I give you, you people just deny them.

Read what I said about the Russian guy and the bible? From the links I linked?

[kenoloor]

Can't prove it, when all links I give you, you people just deny them.

At least we dismiss your "evidence" on a logical and rational basis.

Can't prove it

Just to re-iterate.

[jonte95]

Slavery is totally chill. (Leviticus 25:44)
If I wear clothes with mixed fabrics, I'm going to hell. (Leviticus 19:19)
If you speak against your parents, you're fucked (dead, rather). (Leviticus 20:9)
Hope you don't eat steak...(Leviticus 7:23)
If someone is disabled or has some form of birth defect, they can't come near God's altar. (Leviticus 21:18)
Shall I continue...?

Altar, we don't have such temples anymore. Also, how many times do I have to tell you, it's from the Old Testament.

About steaks,

Matthew 15:11
What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

Also, read this:

The statement has been made, “the Scriptures are clear that we do not live under the New Covenant yet. The New Covenant era is described in Jeremiah 31. Go read it and explain to me how we’re in that era now. Secondly, the covenant with Adam is the same one we’re under now. It’s the same covenant as the one with Noah, with Abraham, with Moses, etc. It has been been renewed, not ended. Please read Matthew 5:13-20.”

As far as not being in the New Covenant. Jesus disagrees.
Luke 22:20

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Not only that, but we see in Hebrews 7 that the perfection could not be attained through the Levitical system, and there was a need for another priest to come. We also see in this passage that there was a change of the priesthood and in the law and that the Old Covenant (“former regulation”) was set aside.

Hebrews 7:11-19

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
”You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.” 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

We see in the next chapter of Hebrews that the priest spoke of in Hebrews 7 was actually Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:6

6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

In fact, Christ made the old covenant obsolete.
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

And in fact, the Levitical system of offering sacrifces in the temple DID disappear, when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.

We are living in the New Covenant, as we see in what Hebrews 10:14-18 tells us has occurred:

14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

What other evidence do I have that we are not under the the Torah? I find the need to offer sacrifices at the temple something we have been freed from. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time.
Hebrews 10:12

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

God love us, but He is a righteous, just, and holy God. He WILL judge us. Are you ready? Are you under the New Covenant?

So, no, those who trust in Christ, as having been sent by God the Father to suffer and die for our sins and raised again on the third day to show His divinity, are not under the Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant.

[kenoloor]

do you think every single thing your Bible says is true??

Yes.

Yes, the bible is true, Jesus is true.

Also, how many times do I have to tell you, it's from the Old Testament.

This is disgustingly contradictory.

[jonte95]

This is disgustingly contradictory.

No, it says so in the bible. Jesus died for us.

How is it contradictory?

[Jess]

I said MAYBE it was her time to die, I don't know, but Jesus exists.


Can't prove it, when all links I give you, you people just deny them.

Read what I said about the Russian guy and the bible? From the links I linked?

'course we deny them. they aren't even "evidence"

Also, how many times do I have to tell you, it's from the Old Testament.

if everything in the Bible is true...it's supposed to include the Old Testament. everything = Old and New Testament

[jonte95]

'course we deny them. they aren't even "evidence"

if everything in the Bible is true...it's supposed to include the Old Testament. everything = Old and New Testament

It includes the Old Testament.

Are you saying, just because we are under the New covenant, the bible isn't true?

The Jews are under the Old Testament, because they don't believe in Jesus.

Also, did you watch the video with medical study that proves holy spirit speaking?

Also, I recommended that you could go to some Christian conference, and experience the holy spirit, and see healings taking place etc.

And you can seek Jesus with all your hearts and souls:

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.

[Sugaree]

I don't want to read it, maybe it was time for her to die.

What in the actual fuck. It wasn't time for her to die, she was 11 fucking years old. She had an entire life ahead of her and her religious nutjob family let her fucking die! I'm out of this thread, you've just literally made me madder than I've ever been. I wonder if you would feel the same way if someone said it was time for you to die if you were that young. Seriously, you have got to be the coldest heart in this entire forum and I'll laugh when God shoots you to Hell in a cannon.

[jonte95]

What in the actual fuck. It wasn't time for her to die, she was 11 fucking years old. She had an entire life ahead of her and her religious nutjob family let her fucking die! I'm out of this thread, you've just literally made me madder than I've ever been. I wonder if you would feel the same way if someone said it was time for you to die if you were that young. Seriously, you have got to be the coldest heart in this entire forum and I'll laugh when God shoots you to Hell in a cannon.

Well, I didn't know how old she was.

[Jess]

Also, did you watch the video with medical study that proves holy spirit speaking?

yes. and I think it's a load of crap. It's not evidence.

Also, I recommended that you could go to some Christian conference, and experience the holy spirit, and see healings taking place etc.

like I will.


Well, I didn't know how old she was.

I posted it like 3 times and you ignored it..

and I put "girl" in one of my posts which makes it kind of obvious she wasn't an adult

[jonte95]

yes. and I think it's a load of crap. It's not evidence.



like I will.




I posted it like 3 times and you ignored it..

and I put "girl" in one of my posts which makes it kind of obvious she wasn't an adult

Well, we all make mistakes. Sorry.

Also, look:

Do you find Crescents and stars in the sky, made of clouds? No?

http://christconquers.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cross-in-the-sky.jpg

[Sugaree]

Well, we all make mistakes. Sorry.

Also, look:

Do you find Crescents and stars in the sky, made of clouds? No?

image (http://christconquers.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cross-in-the-sky.jpg)

Oh Jesus Christ, really? THIS is what you're resorting to? IMAGES that can be MODIFIED? Have you never heard of Photoshop? This is clearly modified, even I can tell that with my very little experience using the program. Really, this thread is absolutely disgusting.

[Jess]

Well, we all make mistakes. Sorry.

Also, look:

Do you find Crescents and stars in the sky, made of clouds? No?

image (http://christconquers.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cross-in-the-sky.jpg)

+1 to Murdoc. he is soooo right. it's freaking PHOTOSHOPPED. I can't believe it. you seriously think/thought this is/was a real image? *laughs*

[jonte95]

Oh Jesus Christ, really? THIS is what you're resorting to? IMAGES that can be MODIFIED? Have you never heard of Photoshop? This is clearly modified, even I can tell that with my very little experience using the program. Really, this thread is absolutely disgusting.

No, I believe it's a sign from Jesus. He's coming soon, he warned people.

[Jess]

a sign?

it's
freaking
photoshopped


it's
not
even
freaking
real

why do I even bother...

[jonte95]

a sign?

it's
freaking
photoshopped


it's
not
even
freaking
real

why do I even bother...

Have you noticed how ifants first word is "Abba"?

Mark 14:36
“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:6
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

[Bath]

Have you noticed how infants first word is "Abba"?



My first word was soccer.

[Maxxie]

Have you noticed how ifants first word is "Abba"?

Mark 14:36
“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Galatians 4:6
Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

Have you noticed that an infants first word could be basically anything, "dada", "mama", basically any group of syllables that the infant can string together and formulate apparent meaning to it.

Abba is simply the Hebrew word for "Father". Get your facts straight.

=-=

To jonte45:

Unreasonable arguments never work. Really. And even if you think they do, someone's going to be able to find a whole in them. During that... Unfortunately, you are going to get ripped on, Mate. Better late than never, i suppose. And, while we're at it, this would be an interesting time to bring up coding, Seeing as how i just put a bit into this paragraph. Some rep for anyone who sees what i did here.

[jonte95]

Have you noticed that an infants first word could be basically anything, "dada", "mama", basically any group of syllables that the infant can string together and formulate apparent meaning to it.

Abba is simply the Hebrew word for "Father". Get your facts straight.

=-=

To jonte45:

Unreasonable arguments never work. Really. And even if you think they do, someone's going to be able to find a whole in them. During that... Unfortunately, you are going to get ripped on, Mate. Better late than never, i suppose. And, while we're at it, this would be an interesting time to bring up coding, Seeing as how i just put a bit into this paragraph. Some rep for anyone who sees what i did here.

Well, I knew it meant that, just didn't have it on my mind. Also, I just copied it from the bible site like that "Abba, father", how is that wrong?

The waters of the Noah flood covered all land + 20'

That is why we have seashells in sedimentary rock on the top of Mt Everest and a single continental shelf at the old water line.

LINK:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest/earth/birth.html

You know what? They've found pieces of Noah's ark, and guess what? Where the bible said, too:

oPpKnwh3AvE#!

[Bath]

The waters of the Noah flood covered all land + 20'

That is why we have seashells in sedimentary rock on the top of Mt Everest and a single continental shelf at the old water line.



My dear sir, mountain ranges are formed by uplifting tectonic plates moving underneath other plates. Some mountain tops were once at the bottom of the sea.

[kenoloor]

This is disgustingly contradictory.


No, it says so in the bible. Jesus died for us.

How is it contradictory?


It includes the Old Testament.

Are you saying, just because we are under the New covenant, the bible isn't true?

The Jews are under the Old Testament, because they don't believe in Jesus.

wait...really?!

REALLY.

What little respect you had from me, you just lost, on the basis of having an argument that is literally built on contradictions, and not being able to present your ideas in a way that is even somewhat logically sound.

Also, according to you, Jews are being lead on by Satan...so that basically you consider the Old Testament to be a book endorsed by Satan. You wouldn't want to follow that now would you?

I blame you for my grey hairs.

[jonte95]

wait...really?!

REALLY.

What little respect you had from me, you just lost, on the basis of having an argument that is literally built on contradictions, and not being able to present your ideas in a way that is even somewhat logically sound.

Also, according to you, Jews are being lead on by Satan...so that basically you consider the Old Testament to be a book endorsed by Satan. You wouldn't want to follow that now would you?

I blame you for my grey hairs.

No, the whole bible is God's word! I didn't say it's endorsed by Satan. But we Christians are under the New covenant.

My dear sir, mountain ranges are formed by uplifting tectonic plates moving underneath other plates. Some mountain tops were once at the bottom of the sea.

Well, they found the Ark of Noah where the bible said. Also, did u read the link?

[Bath]

no, the whole bible is god's word! But we christians are under the new covenant.

what even.



Well, they found the Ark of Noah where the bible said.

They found chunks of wood.

Even IF Noah's ark existed, ocean currents and erosion would've gotten to it.

[jonte95]

what even.



They found chunks of wood.

Even IF Noah's ark existed, ocean currents and erosion would've gotten to it.

What do you mean IF? It's proven it existed. Also, did you read the link?

They found ropes, pellets etc too.

[Bath]

What do you mean IF? It's proven it existed. Also, did you read the link?

They found ropes, pellets etc too.

WELL STOP EVERYTHING THEN. You're totally right. They totally found Noah's ark. They found an old sunken boat, MUST be Noah's ark. Praise the lord Jesus, I have now converted.

[Jess]

prove that it's specifically Noah's ark

[jonte95]

WELL STOP EVERYTHING THEN. You're totally right. They totally found Noah's ark. They found an old sunken boat, MUST be Noah's ark. Praise the lord Jesus, I have now converted.

It's found where the bible said it would, and they found pellets and ropes on the boat too, there were animals, they had ropes tied I guess and ate pellets.

You think it's just a coincidence?

Also, do you believe in evolution? Evolution has no evidence.

[Jess]

WHAT????

evolution has no evidence????????? there's plenty of freaking evidence for evolution!!! NO EVIDENCE whatsoever for GOD

[Bath]

Also, do you believe in evolution? Evolution has no evidence.

oh
my
god

You HAVE to be trolling.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Primates.html

[jonte95]

prove that it's specifically Noah's ark

Well, it said in the bible that it would be on that place. Also, A wooden beam with nails on one side of the wall. It is believed that a rope was hooked on those nails to keep animals in place. They found racks on a wall along with straw. A door was found in the ceiling. It is concluded that the ark has more than one floor

God said to Noah in Genesis 6:14-16, "So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks" (NIV). According to God's Word, Noah built the ark. Eight people entered it and all humanity died in the ensuing flood.

Source: http://carm.org/could-noahs-ark-hold-all-animals


Prove that evolution is true.

oh
my
god

You HAVE to be trolling.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Primates.html

What nonesense is that? That's not evidence.

SORRY DOUBLEPOST AGAIN Yeah, please avoid that. Use that multiquote button. ~Thomas

[Jess]

okay so you say that's not evidence. the links YOU provide definitely aren't evidence

there are more evidence to evolution than to the existence of a higher being. the things in the link Bethany provided is more logical evidence than the stuff you provided

here are evidence for evolution:


1. the fossil record of change in earlier species
2. the chemical and anatomical similarities of related life forms
3. the geographic distribution of related species
4. the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations

Evolution of antibiotic resistant bacteria *
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/images/evolution_of_bacteria.gif

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

so, you think that's not evidence either? fossils are fake?






Well, it said in the bible that it would be on that place. Also, A wooden beam with nails on one side of the wall. It is believed that a rope was hooked on those nails to keep animals in place. They found racks on a wall along with straw. A door was found in the ceiling. It is concluded that the ark has more than one floor

God said to Noah in Genesis 6:14-16, "So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks" (NIV). According to God's Word, Noah built the ark. Eight people entered it and all humanity died in the ensuing flood.

Source: http://carm.org/could-noahs-ark-hold-all-animals


Prove that evolution is true.

ugh. seriously

Could the ark really contain all the animals of the world? Again the answer is "Yes." But let's look at the last question in more detail. The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.

freaking no. it could NOT contain all the freaking animals of the world.

my answer is a quote (I agree with it, I didn't come up with the answer):

Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of “every thing that creepeth upon the earth” (Genesis 7:8). Now this must have taken some time, along with expert knowledge of taxonomy, genetics, biogeography, and anatomy. How did Noah manage to collect the endemic species from the New World, Australia, Polynesia, and other remote regions entirely unknown to him? How, once he found them, did he transport them back to his Near Eastern home? How could he tell the male and female beetles (there are more than 500,000 species) apart? How did he know how to care for these new and unfamiliar animals? How did he find the space on the ark? How did he manage to find and care for the hundreds of thousands of parasitic species or the hundreds of thousands of plant species? (Plants are ignored in the Genesis account, but the animals wouldn’t last long if the plants died in the flood.) No, wait, don’t tell me, a miracle happened, millions of them.

[Amnesiac]

Also, do you believe in evolution? Evolution has no evidence.

Prove that evolution is true.

What nonesense is that? That's not evidence.

SORRY DOUBLEPOST AGAIN

PFFT.

You're denying over 200 years of study in the field of biology because it has "no evidence," yet you're spouting all this nonsense about Jesus and Noah's Ark, and you cite the Bible and a bunch of insane wingnut Christian websites as sources? Are you kidding me?

Stop trying to act like you're somehow more enlightened than all of us. All of your posts in this thread lack a basic understanding of science or anything related to established human knowledge. This thread isn't a debate – it wasn't in the first place. It's just an outlet for you to either a) troll hard or b) shove Christianity down everybody's throats. Either way, it doesn't make any sense.

[BFG9001]

I can fly. But only when no one's looking.

Prove me wrong.

[Jupiter]

^^ I am a 40 year old man. Prove me wrong.

[Sugaree]

I can turn into a bat when no one's looking, prove me wrong.

I make diamonds appear in my palm, but only if you close your eyes. Prove me wrong.

Seriously, this entire thread is based off of shoddy evidence from websites that don't even source their OWN sources, contradictory statements, and a book which offers no proof other than saying "Yeah, this happened. Believe it." Face it, you're going nowhere with your arguments.

You've basically said "fuck you" to every piece of scientific evidence we've pulled out of OUR asses so that YOU could see it. But you shrug it off, say "FAITH!", and walk away like you've won. You're not logical, you're not enlightened, you're not above anyone else. You are contradictory, have made statements that are false, and have NO desire to see OUR point of view. If this is how other Christians debate, I'm disappointed.

I honestly can't believe that you believe this. Seriously? Jews don't believe in Jesus? Jesus was a fucking Jew himself, and the Judaism acknowledges Christ as a prophet of God, just like Islam, not the Son of God as Christianity believes. Jews and Muslims don't "reject" Jesus at all, so these statements are blatantly false and YOU know it.

I'm starting to wonder what Jesus would do if he met you. I'm more than willing to believe that he would beat the shit out of you for what you've said. Even if I don't believe that Christ was the Son of God, he spoke great words of wisdom, that much is true. You've literally disgraced whatever respect Christ HAS in the modern day, and that is just disgusting. You might as well tell Voltaire, Socrates, and the hundreds of other philosophers/wise men to fuck themselves.

[Perseus]

What happened to the dinosaurs?

[BFG9001]

I'd like to believe that when I die, I'll be happy forever.

Too bad I'm not stupid.

[Jess]

What happened to the dinosaurs?

oh I know! :D God destroyed them because he got tired of them! :D :D


/sarcasm

[kenoloor]

Also, do you believe in evolution? Evolution has no evidence.

BAHAHAHAHA.

Oh, and Murdoc is so fucking right.

"Christian." Taken from the name "Christ." Yet look at yourself. You are nothing like Christ. If you don't even try to be more like Christ, what exactly is the purpose of being Christian, besides the fact that it gives you the opportunity to post ridiculous and downright stupid things in a forum that is intended for legitimate debates, but you just bullshit your way through.

You entertain me, sir.

[Maxxie]

I'm really quite sad no-one got this...

Unreasonable arguments never work. Really. And even if you think they do, someone's going to be able to find a whole in them. During that... Unfortunately, you are going to get ripped on, Mate. Better late than never, i suppose. And, while we're at it, this would be an interesting time to bring up coding, Seeing as how i just put a bit into this paragraph. Some rep for anyone who sees what i did here.

Capital-letter encoding is fun...

[Angel Androgynous]

I'm really quite sad no-one got this...



Capital-letter encoding is fun...

ur a dumbass. c: :cool:

[jonte95]

BAHAHAHAHA.

Oh, and Murdoc is so fucking right.

"Christian." Taken from the name "Christ." Yet look at yourself. You are nothing like Christ. If you don't even try to be more like Christ, what exactly is the purpose of being Christian, besides the fact that it gives you the opportunity to post ridiculous and downright stupid things in a forum that is intended for legitimate debates, but you just bullshit your way through.

You entertain me, sir.

What do you know about me, how I try to be?

PFFT.

You're denying over 200 years of study in the field of biology because it has "no evidence," yet you're spouting all this nonsense about Jesus and Noah's Ark, and you cite the Bible and a bunch of insane wingnut Christian websites as sources? Are you kidding me?

Stop trying to act like you're somehow more enlightened than all of us. All of your posts in this thread lack a basic understanding of science or anything related to established human knowledge. This thread isn't a debate – it wasn't in the first place. It's just an outlet for you to either a) troll hard or b) shove Christianity down everybody's throats. Either way, it doesn't make any sense.









ugh. seriously



freaking no. it could NOT contain all the freaking animals of the world.

my answer is a quote (I agree with it, I didn't come up with the answer):

Prove me it couldn't.


I can turn into a bat when no one's looking, prove me wrong.

I make diamonds appear in my palm, but only if you close your eyes. Prove me wrong.

Seriously, this entire thread is based off of shoddy evidence from websites that don't even source their OWN sources, contradictory statements, and a book which offers no proof other than saying "Yeah, this happened. Believe it." Face it, you're going nowhere with your arguments.

You've basically said "fuck you" to every piece of scientific evidence we've pulled out of OUR asses so that YOU could see it. But you shrug it off, say "FAITH!", and walk away like you've won. You're not logical, you're not enlightened, you're not above anyone else. You are contradictory, have made statements that are false, and have NO desire to see OUR point of view. If this is how other Christians debate, I'm disappointed.

I honestly can't believe that you believe this. Seriously? Jews don't believe in Jesus? Jesus was a fucking Jew himself, and the Judaism acknowledges Christ as a prophet of God, just like Islam, not the Son of God as Christianity believes. Jews and Muslims don't "reject" Jesus at all, so these statements are blatantly false and YOU know it.

I'm starting to wonder what Jesus would do if he met you. I'm more than willing to believe that he would beat the shit out of you for what you've said. Even if I don't believe that Christ was the Son of God, he spoke great words of wisdom, that much is true. You've literally disgraced whatever respect Christ HAS in the modern day, and that is just disgusting. You might as well tell Voltaire, Socrates, and the hundreds of other philosophers/wise men to fuck themselves.

I've already met him. Also, I'm an Asperger, maybe that's why I can't debate good, I tried to bring people to him.

Well they reject him as the Messiah, God's son, that's what I meant.

I can't talk with you people anymore, I give you scientific proof, and the bible and that you can go to a christian concert etc.

How can people fall down like that without getting hurt?

[Genghis Khan]

ugh. seriously



freaking no. it could NOT contain all the freaking animals of the world.

Prove me it couldn't.

Consider how every species of animal was suddenly located in the Middle East, Caimanidae, Eunectes Murinus (Anacondas), Duck billed Platypus and the list goes on. Use your head dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense).


I can't talk with you people anymore, I give you scientific proof and the bible and that you can go to a christian concert etc.

No you didn't. Game over, thanks for playing.

[jonte95]

Consider how every species of animal was suddenly located in the Middle East, Caimanidae, Eunectes Murinus (Anacondas), Duck billed Platypus and the list goes on. Use your head dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense).




No you didn't. Game over, thanks for playing.

I gave scientific proof, they found Noah's ark where the bible said.

[Jess]

I can't talk with you people anymore, I give you scientific proof, and the bible and that you can go to a christian concert etc.

I gave scientific proof, they found Noah's ark where the bible said.

what a joke. scientific proof?

"they found Noah's ark where the Bible said"

you keep saying that. you think everything is true because the Bible says so. load of crap

Prove me it couldn't.

*roll eyes* how did he get all the animals on the other continents? How was he able to tell apart female from male? there were like millions of species

[embers]

I gave scientific proof, they found Noah's ark where the bible said.

The Qur'an supposedly contains details of atomic structure and hints at humans being made of mostly water (which they are). Does one truth in a book make the entire thing credible? No.

[Jean Poutine]

How can people fall down like that without getting hurt?

trolobro I've fell more than a thousand of times in the last 5 years.

It's called breakfalling.

[jonte95]

trolobro I've fell more than a thousand of times in the last 5 years.

It's called breakfalling.

With your head backwards?

[Jess]

what makes you think just because people fall and don't even get hurt that it's the work of the Holy Spirit?

[jonte95]

what makes you think just because people fall and don't even get hurt that it's the work of the Holy Spirit?

Cuz it's a Christian place.

[Angel Androgynous]

The Noah's Ark bullshit can be dis-proven with a few scientific facts to consider:

1. The Ark's size cannot hold 2 of every single animal.
2. The sea-life would not survive, because the salt and fresh water would mix.
3. There would be a huge lack of food, and the animals would attack each other.
4. Since the water supposedly went over the mountaintops, most of the animals would suffocate, and those who didn't would freeze to death.
5. Even if everyone survived, what would they all eat once they got there, if everything was destroyed by the flood?
6. Two of every animal is not enough to populate a species. You need at least 50 of each species for enough genetic diversity.

The "God did it it's magic, hurr" argument will not work here. If God is truly so smart, why didn't he just give all the bad humans magical heart attacks? Why a fucking flood? Either way, if you believe in Noah's Ark, okay, go ahead. We will all laugh at you.

[Jess]

Cuz it's a Christian place.

pfft. that's a logical explanation. /sarcasm

The Noah's Ark bullshit can be dis-proven with a few scientific facts to consider:

1. The Ark's size cannot hold 2 of every single animal.
2. The sea-life would not survive, because the salt and fresh water would mix.
3. There would be a huge lack of food, and the animals would attack each other.
4. Since the water supposedly went over the mountaintops, most of the animals would suffocate, and those who didn't would freeze to death.
5. Even if everyone survived, what would they all eat once they got there, if everything was destroyed by the flood?
6. Two of every animal is not enough to populate a species. You need at least 50 of each species for enough genetic diversity.

The "God did it it's magic, hurr" argument will not work here. If God is truly so smart, why didn't he just give all the bad humans magical heart attacks? Why a fucking flood? Either way, if you believe in Noah's Ark, okay, go ahead. We will all laugh at you.

agreed

[Maxxie]

Four words.

There is no God.

[embers]

Four words.

There is no God.

Strong atheism = faith

[Amnesiac]

I gave scientific proof, they found Noah's ark where the bible said.

You can't say you're using "scientific proof" if you don't even believe in science.

[Maxxie]

Strong atheism = faith

At this point, I'm just trying to draw a response out of him that doesn't deal with Noah's Ark and his unfounded arguments for it.

[Jean Poutine]

With your head backwards?

I've fell ON my head before. From somebody throwing me full force to the ground. I've had 300+ pounds guys fall directly on my ribs. Not to mention multiple events where I got both a shot to the nuts and thrown down for my efforts. I'm not dead and I can still reproduce.

Trust me, your little falls don't impress me. At all. I've fell on ice before and I've got up painlessly because I'm trained to breakfall. You just had beginner's luck.

No Godly intervention.

Fucking trolls.

5K0OJ6-aauo

[deadpie]

Also, do you believe in evolution? Evolution has no evidence.

Even though The Bible supports creationism, what's sad is Genesis actually mentions evolution too...

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:11

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Genesis 1:24

And you're telling me to read a fucking Bible over and over like I don't know more things about it then you do. Har har.

[Jupiter]

I appreciate the offer, and I'm not gonna bash you or anything..... But.. I am a christian, and this is kinda embarrassing to other Christians.

[Jess]

question for jonte95:

how old is the Earth?



and..

are fossils real?

[kenoloor]

question for jonte95:

how old is the Earth?



and..

are fossils real?

You can't possibly not already know what he's going to say.

[Jess]

I just want to know how he'll answer and see if it confirms how I'll think he'll answer :S

[jonte95]

question for jonte95:

how old is the Earth?



and..

are fossils real?

They found fossils on Mt Everest

I don't know how old earth is, I haven't got that far.

[Genghis Khan]

I just want to know how he'll answer and see if it confirms how I'll think he'll answer :S

And then what? Tell him he's wrong? Forget it dude, you're not going to change his mind and neither is anyone else.

[jonte95]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

Jesus face

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=304486686251640&set=a.140758345957809.19034.118706574829653&type=1&theater

Jesus face made from bible scipts

[Genghis Khan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

http://fitzaang.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/penis-cactus.jpg

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/editorial_images/jackson_on_rover_small.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_II_j1gF3LoQ/TJedUqtG_EI/AAAAAAAAACc/N6FLQxc1EfM/s1600/antsmiracle37eo.jpg

I mean really, what are they supposed to signify?

[StoppingTime]

Sea creatures look like jesus, I believe you now! Just listen to yourself.

[Sugaree]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

Jesus face

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=304486686251640&set=a.140758345957809.19034.118706574829653&type=1&theater

Jesus face made from bible scipts

The Shroud of Turin can contain anyone's bodily image from the dried blood. We don't have another blood sample from anyone during Jesus' time period to compare with on the blood on the Shroud. Needless to say, it's interesting to look at.

Also, Jesus face made from bible scripts? This was a work of art by someone else, not a sign from Christ.

[Jupiter]

I disagree.

[StoppingTime]

I disagree.

With, who, why...?

[Jupiter]

With, who, why...?

With: OP.

Who. OP

Why? We differ.

[jonte95]

The Shroud of Turin can contain anyone's bodily image from the dried blood. We don't have another blood sample from anyone during Jesus' time period to compare with on the blood on the Shroud. Needless to say, it's interesting to look at.

Also, Jesus face made from bible scripts? This was a work of art by someone else, not a sign from Christ.

The Star of Bethlehem DVD
Science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5eybnbrO_M

Also, did you read "They found no reliable evidence of forgery, and called the question of how the image was formed "a mystery".

And,

"Scientific and popular publications have presented diverse arguments for both authenticity and possible methods of forgery. A variety of scientific theories regarding the shroud have since been proposed, based on disciplines ranging from chemistry to biology and medical forensics to optical image analysis.

According to former Nature editor Philip Ball, "it's fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever. Not least, the nature of the image and how it was fixed on the cloth remain deeply puzzling". The shroud is one of the most studied artifacts in human history, and one of the most controversial."

[StoppingTime]

The Star of Bethlehem DVD
Science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5eybnbrO_M

Also, did you read "They found no reliable evidence of forgery, and called the question of how the image was formed "a mystery".


Yes, there was no forgery, it just has no proof that it is of Jesus. There is no scientific way that can be proved.


And,

"Scientific and popular publications have presented diverse arguments for both authenticity and possible methods of forgery. A variety of scientific theories regarding the shroud have since been proposed, based on disciplines ranging from chemistry to biology and medical forensics to optical image analysis.

According to former Nature editor Philip Ball, "it's fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever. Not least, the nature of the image and how it was fixed on the cloth remain deeply puzzling". The shroud is one of the most studied artifacts in human history, and one of the most controversial."

There! You said it yourself. This says it isn't anyone we can prove right now.

[jonte95]

Yes, there was no forgery, it just has no proof that it is of Jesus. There is no scientific way that can be proved.



There! You said it yourself. This says it isn't anyone we can prove right now.

Did you watch the video?

[kenoloor]

This is what it comes down to. You will never be able to produce conclusive evidence that supports your ridiculous claim. The only 'evidence" that could possibly support such and outlandish idea is that which is biased, illogical, stupid, illegitimate, or inconclusive. Therefore, you have no point to make, and this thread is useless, not to mention stupid.

/thread

[jonte95]

This is what it comes down to. You will never be able to produce conclusive evidence that supports your ridiculous claim. The only 'evidence" that could possibly support such and outlandish idea is that which is biased, illogical, stupid, illegitimate, or inconclusive. Therefore, you have no point to make, and this thread is useless, not to mention stupid.

/thread

Did you watch the video, it's scientific evidence? Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKgpHLZs28&list=FLpwJ0XDJC2cMUod3FJoA0Aw&index=2&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDNki9NzN98&list=FLpwJ0XDJC2cMUod3FJoA0Aw&index=3&feature=plpp_video


Also:

Antony Garrard Newton Flew (11 February 1923 – 8 April 2010[1][2]) was a British philosopher. Belonging to the analytic and evidentialist schools of thought, he was notable for his works on the philosophy of religion.

Flew was a strong advocate of atheism, arguing that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces. He also criticised the idea of life after death,[3] the free will defence to the problem of evil, and the meaningfulness of the concept of God.[4] However, in 2004 he stated an allegiance to deism, stating that in keeping his lifelong commitment to go where the evidence leads, he now believes in God.[5] He later wrote the book There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind, with contributions from Roy Abraham Varghese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew


Why do you think he just became a Christian like that?

[kenoloor]

Did you watch the video, it's scientific evidence? Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKgpHLZs28&list=FLpwJ0XDJC2cMUod3FJoA0Aw&index=2&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDNki9NzN98&list=FLpwJ0XDJC2cMUod3FJoA0Aw&index=3&feature=plpp_video

Science does not support region. Ever. Real science anyway.


Also:

Antony Garrard Newton Flew (11 February 1923 – 8 April 2010[1][2]) was a British philosopher. Belonging to the analytic and evidentialist schools of thought, he was notable for his works on the philosophy of religion.

Flew was a strong advocate of atheism, arguing that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces. He also criticised the idea of life after death,[3] the free will defence to the problem of evil, and the meaningfulness of the concept of God.[4] However, in 2004 he stated an allegiance to deism, stating that in keeping his lifelong commitment to go where the evidence leads, he now believes in God.[5] He later wrote the book There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind, with contributions from Roy Abraham Varghese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew


Why do you think he just became a Christian like that?

Lots of people convert. That's nothing special. And that certainly isn't evidence. He converted as his mental health was deteriorating; he was not of sound mind, according to the New York Times article referenced on the Wikipedia article. He also didn't write most of that book. Research. It's cool. You should try it. Oh, and logic. That's cool too.

[Jess]

Did you watch the video, it's scientific evidence? Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKgpHLZs28&list=FLpwJ0XDJC2cMUod3FJoA0Aw&index=2&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDNki9NzN98&list=FLpwJ0XDJC2cMUod3FJoA0Aw&index=3&feature=plpp_video


Also:

Antony Garrard Newton Flew (11 February 1923 – 8 April 2010[1][2]) was a British philosopher. Belonging to the analytic and evidentialist schools of thought, he was notable for his works on the philosophy of religion.

Flew was a strong advocate of atheism, arguing that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces. He also criticised the idea of life after death,[3] the free will defence to the problem of evil, and the meaningfulness of the concept of God.[4] However, in 2004 he stated an allegiance to deism, stating that in keeping his lifelong commitment to go where the evidence leads, he now believes in God.[5] He later wrote the book There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind, with contributions from Roy Abraham Varghese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew


Why do you think he just became a Christian like that?

just because he converts doesn't prove anything. big freaking deal! lots of people convert, as Sapphire_Flames said

doesn't PROVE A FREAKING THING

[huginnmuninn]

one of my good friends was a christian and was on his way to church this sunday when he got in a car accident and died. he prayed everyday and loved god with all his heart. you may say that prayer helps some people stay healthy and safe but i can probably give just as many examples of people who pray and love god but get hurt all the time i could probably give more examples if i wanted to.

[kenoloor]

Question @ the OP: Do you believe in Santa?

[BFG9001]

If God was real we wouldn't be debating it.

[jonte95]

If God was real we wouldn't be debating it.

He exists. You can seek him if you want.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Matthew 18:3
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

No wonder many children get to see angels, Jesus etc.

Their faith is simple.

Question @ the OP: Do you believe in Santa?

No, interesting, just read this:

http://www.tearstojoyministries.org/Myth_of_santa_claus.html

[Jess]

Prove that he exists. who created him? why did he kill off the dinosaurs if he does exist? Prove that he made humans FROM DIRT

If God was real we wouldn't be debating it.

agreed

[kenoloor]

No

why don't you believe in Santa?

[Jean Poutine]

because santa claus derives from saint nicholas' legend/folklore and OBVIOUSLY such a pious man would not believe in HERETICAL catholic/orthodox constructions like "saints".

god damn, you guys...

[kenoloor]

because santa claus derives from saint nicholas' legend/folklore and OBVIOUSLY such a pious man would not believe in HERETICAL catholic/orthodox constructions like "saints".

god damn, you guys...

Shut up, I'm trying to make a point. :P

[jonte95]

Look at this, it has the same bloodtype as holy shroud of Turin:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs&feature=player_embedded

[kenoloor]

Look at this, it has the same bloodtype as holy shroud of Turin:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs&feature=player_embedded

You are so incredibly amazing at being a horrible debater.

Would you answer my damn question.

[jonte95]

You are so incredibly amazing at being a horrible debater.

Would you answer my damn question.

Did you read it?

What do you mean if I believe in Santa? If he exists, a man in red apparel and elves in the northpole?

No, because I knew it was just my dad that came dressed as Santa when I was younger.

[kenoloor]

What do you mean if I believe in Santa? If he exists, a man in red apparel and elves in the northpole?

No, because I knew it was just my dad that came dressed as Santa when I was younger.

So you realized that there wasn't any evidence to support Santa's existence, and that it was just your dad doing "Santa's" work, yes?

[jonte95]

So you realized that there wasn't any evidence to support Santa's existence, and that it was just your dad doing "Santa's" work, yes?

I still believed that Santa lived in the northpole, and had a sleigh and reindeers, for a while.

[kenoloor]

I still believed that Santa lived in the northpole, and had a sleigh and reindeers, for a while.

But you don't anymore. Holy fuck, I feel like I'm pulling teeth.

[MaliciousBunface]

Matthew 18:3
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

No wonder many children get to see angels, Jesus etc.



What the hell? Christianity = Majority of children dying?
That's what it sounds like to me >_>

[Efflorescence]

why don't you believe in Santa?

So, first of all I didn't actually get your point.

Being atheist means not believing in any deity. Theoretically speaking, an atheist can deny the existence of a deity but still believe in Santa or more practically in ghosts for example.

The same thing with agnostics. Agnostics claim that the truth value of the existence of any deity is unknowable, so they cannot be sure. However, I am certain that many agnostics here are absolutely sure that Santa does not exist. So, it is not only Christians and theists that make a distinction between God, and Santa, ghosts whatever.

So you're mixing up different things all in one pot.

More on topic: Just as dudes here have already said, medicine is tested and retested before shoving it down people's throats so that we'll make sure that there is a high probability that it works, OP.

However it's not something 'either or'. You can give medicine and pray, in fact most do it this way.

And what is the worst thing that could happen when praying? That there's no one on the other side? That you might feel incredibly stupid after doing it? I personally feel that it's worth giving a shot, I've got nothing to lose by praying. That's my opinion.

*Pant* - End of post lol:)

[kenoloor]

So, first of all I didn't actually get your point.

Yet you're debating it...

Being atheist means not believing in any deity. Theoretically speaking, an atheist can deny the existence of a deity but still believe in Santa or more practically in ghosts for example.

An atheist believing in ghosts contradicts the fundamental reason they are atheist. The reason people don't believe in God is because there is no evidence to support God's existence. Just as there is no evidence to support ghosts' existence, or Santa's.

The same thing with agnostics. Agnostics claim that the truth value of the existence of any deity is unknowable, so they cannot be sure. However, I am certain that many agnostics here are absolutely sure that Santa does not exist. So, it is not only Christians and theists that make a distinction between God, and Santa, ghosts whatever.

When you look at it critically, God and Santa are the same person. They are both men who you ask to give you shit, they both have fairy tales surrounding them, and they both have zero evidence to prove their existence.

So you're mixing up different things all in one pot.

No.

I've got nothing to lose by praying.

Except a whole lot of time and energy.

[Dorsum Oppel]

Why do people feel a need to assert their beliefs onto another? This thread is basically horse feathers out the ass.

If people don't believe in prayer, who cares. They don't believe in prayer. If some kid asks why you don't believe in prayer, ignore him. But for goats sake, don't try and argue against the existence of god because obviously you are both on two different fields of perception, your concept of truth derives from separate criteria, and it's pointless because we all believe what we feel like believing.

[Genghis Khan]

If people don't believe in prayer, who cares. They don't believe in prayer. If some kid asks why you don't believe in prayer, ignore him. But for goats sake, don't try and argue against the existence of god because obviously you are both on two different fields of perception, your concept of truth derives from separate criteria, and it's pointless because we all believe what we feel like believing.

By that logic, you shouldn't argue about anything.

I agree this particular scenario is essentially pointless but this shouldn't stop people from debating different views and perceptions.

[antiabort]

Bad idea making this post, everyone is going to give you a negative rep and insult you to look cool.

Edit: looks like that already happened, are you people capable of mature discussion? You act like a bunch of autistic children.

[kenoloor]

Bad idea making this post, everyone is going to give you a negative rep and insult you to look cool.

Edit: looks like that already happened, are you people capable of mature discussion? You act like a bunch of autistic children.

Before you go telling us to be mature, you should try it.

[antiabort]

Before you go telling us to be mature, you should try it.

Lolno. Don't lecture me on maturity when you are the one making snarky little sarcastic comments in almost every thread, and bashing anyone religious.

[kenoloor]

Lolno. Don't lecture me on maturity when you are the one making snarky little sarcastic comments in almost every thread, and bashing anyone religious.

Now, now, be nice, child. I wasn't lecturing you, but I will now if you're going to be uptight about it. I was suggesting that you're full of contradictions. You tell us to be mature, then say we're acting like autistic children...yeah, can't think of anything much more mature than that. You got me on that one.
I'm not bashing, I'm debating. You're in a debate forum, and whining about debates will just make you more of a target for assholes like me who don't take shit.
Welcome to VT.

[BFG9001]

I prayed to God from 5-12. Nothing happened, so I gave up.

[antiabort]

This is what it comes down to. You will never be able to produce conclusive evidence that supports your ridiculous claim. The only 'evidence" that could possibly support such and outlandish idea is that which is biased, illogical, stupid, illegitimate, or inconclusive. Therefore, you have no point to make, and this thread is useless, not to mention stupid.

/thread

You call him ridiculous, stupid, and say the thread is useless. Not bashing eh? Horse shit.

[Jess]

she's not bashing. she's telling the truth and debating >_> now stop accusing people and debate

[Genghis Khan]

You call him ridiculous, stupid, and say the thread is useless. Not bashing eh? Horse shit.

http://operatorchan.org/n/arch/src/n113756_palpatine%20butthurt.png

[MaliciousBunface]

Edit: looks like that already happened, are you people capable of mature discussion? You act like a bunch of autistic children.

How are we acting like autistic kids?

[kenoloor]

You call him ridiculous, stupid, and say the thread is useless. Not bashing eh? Horse shit.

If you took the time to actually read that post, you'd see that I didn't attack him personally. I proving my point. Because this is ROTW.
IT'S A DEBATE FORUM.


Now that we're completely off-topic...

[trooneh]

How are we acting like autistic kids?

Simply because we lack communication skills, the ability to read others emotions, display repetitive behavior, etc.

[MaliciousBunface]

I see. Well that's cool then :3

[Dorsum Oppel]

By that logic, you shouldn't argue about anything.

I agree this particular scenario is essentially pointless but this shouldn't stop people from debating different views and perceptions.

field of perception =/= a perception


Bad idea making this post, everyone is going to give you a negative rep and insult you to look cool.

Edit: looks like that already happened, are you people capable of mature discussion? You act like a bunch of autistic children.

oh wow, that's not blatant ableism or a complete asshole thing to say.

No one gives rep to look cool, that's not even theoretically possible considering who gives the rep is anonymous and not displayed to the public.

[Maxxie]

You call him ridiculous, stupid, and say the thread is useless. Not bashing eh? Horse shit.

No, it's true.

Problem?

[BFG9001]

I never called anyone stupid. I just implied it.

[Bmatlman]

omg are you trying to persuade people again that you can pray and get, let's say...CANCER...cured?

yes actually. it has happened upon many accounts. the cancer just disappered. also i know god is real because one of my friends father had passed away and they werent sure how to tell their 3 year old daughter. then all of a sudden their daughter came up and said she had just talked to her grandpa and that this nice man was taking him away to a paradise. explain that.

[Amnesiac]

yes actually. it has happened upon many accounts. the cancer just disappered. also i know god is real because one of my friends father had passed away and they werent sure how to tell their 3 year old daughter. then all of a sudden their daughter came up and said she had just talked to her grandpa and that this nice man was taking him away to a paradise. explain that.

For the millionth time

PERSONAL TESTIMONY IS NOT EVIDENCE.

If there's one thing that this thread proves – out of all of the claims here that are complete bullshit – it's that a disturbing number of teenagers simply lack the ability to think logically and to debate in public.

I don't care if you heard God. I don't care if you have a story about your friend. I don't care if a little kid said something. I don't care if you were "magically cured". That doesn't mean shit. What I do care about is whether or not you have established scientific evidence supporting your outlandish claims. Obviously, you don't.

I bet if someone claimed that they saw Zeus appear at their bedside, you'd call them crazy and unfounded, yet all the personal testimony in this abortion of a thread is equally misguided, illogical and ridiculous. Just because you saw something doesn't mean it's there. Just because you heard a story doesn't mean it's true. This world is full of lies and propaganda, and those of you in this thread who keep pushing these claims about God and Christianity are just catalyzing the spread of ignorance.

[Amaryllis]

Guiz, guiz. Dar's only one thang 4 us 2 say.

http://i.qkme.me/35g5eb.jpg

[Genghis Khan]

yes actually. it has happened upon many accounts. the cancer just disappered. also i know god is real because one of my friends father had passed away and they werent sure how to tell their 3 year old daughter. then all of a sudden their daughter came up and said she had just talked to her grandpa and that this nice man was taking him away to a paradise. explain that.

What do you call it when a person is healthy and just drops dead? Is that proof that God does not exist?

[Magus]

PERSONAL TESTIMONY IS NOT EVIDENCE.


Indeed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fUIY_bLo34)

Watch that scene and learn.

[Jess]

yes actually. it has happened upon many accounts. the cancer just disappered. also i know god is real because one of my friends father had passed away and they werent sure how to tell their 3 year old daughter. then all of a sudden their daughter came up and said she had just talked to her grandpa and that this nice man was taking him away to a paradise. explain that.

how do you know she was telling the truth? and as LithiumAneurysm said, personal testimony IS NOT EVIDENCE

[Jean Poutine]

If you're not trolling right along at this point, you lose.

[jonte95]

how do you know she was telling the truth? and as LithiumAneurysm said, personal testimony IS NOT EVIDENCE

http://www.godvine.com/Man-Dies-and-Returns-to-Life-on-the-Operating-Table-420.html

He died of heart attack and Jesus ressurected him.

http://mobileintensiveprayerunit.blogspot.com/2011/12/holy-spirit-breaks-out-at-football-game.html

[kenoloor]

http://www.godvine.com/Man-Dies-and-Returns-to-Life-on-the-Operating-Table-420.html

He died of heart attack and Jesus ressurected him.

http://mobileintensiveprayerunit.blogspot.com/2011/12/holy-spirit-breaks-out-at-football-game.html

You know what I'm going to say, so I'll keep it brief.

NOT PROOF.

[jonte95]

You know what I'm going to say, so I'll keep it brief.

NOT PROOF.

Did you watch the videos? It's not proof? Tell me how it isn't.

[kenoloor]

Did you watch the videos? It's not proof? Tell me how it isn't.

Bias. Personal testimony. Lack of scientific evidence. Illogical. Shall I continue?

[jonte95]

Bias. Personal testimony. Lack of scientific evidence. Illogical. Shall I continue?

How is a supernatural ressurection, healing supposed to be logical and scientific?

From a medical doctor's study: "As we pray in the Spirit, there is activity that begins to take place in our brain. As we engage in our heavenly language the brain releases 2 chemical secretions that are directed into our immune systems giving a 35 to 40 percent boost to the immune system. This promotes healing within our bodies. Amazingly this secretion is triggered from a part of the brain that has no other apparent activity in humans and is only activated by our Spirit led prayer and worship." Carl Peterson, M.D.

Google him.

I remember someone here claimed that prayers healing headache and stuff is a placebo.

Well if you believe it's a placeno, it obviously works, then why not do that rather than taking pills that most likely have side-effects, and doesn't give instant effect.

[Azunite]

I wanted to express my opinions about prayers here but it seems this thread is everything but prayers.

[Magus]

How is a supernatural ressurection, healing supposed to be logical and scientific?

From a medical doctor's study: "As we pray in the Spirit, there is activity that begins to take place in our brain. As we engage in our heavenly language the brain releases 2 chemical secretions that are directed into our immune systems giving a 35 to 40 percent boost to the immune system. This promotes healing within our bodies. Amazingly this secretion is triggered from a part of the brain that has no other apparent activity in humans and is only activated by our Spirit led prayer and worship." Carl Peterson, M.D.


^This is by one guy. Is it agreed and tested by other medical groups? I guess not. It fails. He doesn't mentioned the two chemicals. And it doesn't mention its other functions and its origin from the brain. Or part of the brain that seems to be with "no other apparent activity".

I will even support you on this. There has been a study made. They found out the pain threshold of two groups.

One group had a picture of the Virgin(?), maybe Jesus, don't remember, hanged in front of them. Anyway, they felt less pain than from another group that had no pictures. There seem to be a scientific explanation behind it.

However, it is a placebo in a way.

Well if you believe it's a placeno, it obviously works, then why not do that rather than taking pills that most likely have side-effects, and doesn't give instant effect.

This happens to every religious group. Hindus chanting mantras will always say that it really helps them in healing. So, that makes Hinduism true? Right? This same goes to Muslims, who says if you perform supplication to Allah, it will always help alleviate pain. So, Islam is also right?

This can be applied to any religious group. Does that makes them all true and correct? Their prayers answered by different-different Gods?

It is true that it alleviate pains by some mental mechanism, but it doesn't remove the cause of the Pain. That's what really matters; the cause of the pain. Does cancer or Aids go by itself via prayer? Even Common Flu doesn't disappear with prayer.

You should stop reading about Prayer from biased sources and get it from more analytical sources:
http://www.skepdic.com/essays/healingprayer1.html


Oh, and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

The feeling that you are healed, when in reality you are not.

[jonte95]

^This is by one guy. Is it agreed and tested by other medical groups? I guess not. It fails.

I will even support you on this. There has been a study made. They found out the pain threshold of two groups.


One group had a picture of the Virgin(?), maybe Jesus, don't remember, hanged in front of them. Anyway, they felt less pain than from another group that had no pictures. There seem to be a scientific explanation behind it.

However, it is a placebo




This happens to every religious group. Hindus chanting mantras will always say that it really helps them in healing. So, that makes Hinduism true? Right? This same goes to Muslims, who says if you perform supplication to Allah, it will always help alleviate pain. So, Islam is also right?

This can be applied to any religious group. Does that makes them all true and correct? Their prayers answered by different-different Gods?

It is true that it alleviate pains by some mental mechanism, but it doesn't remove the cause of the Pain. That's what really matters; the cause of the pain. Does cancer or Aids go by itself via prayer? Even Common Flu doesn't disappear with prayer.

You should read about Prayer from biased sources and get it from analytical sources:
http://www.skepdic.com/essays/healingprayer1.html


Oh, and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

The feeling that you are healed, when in reality you are not.

That's just scientific lies, healings from Jesus aren't delusions, maybe you can explain how people in wheelchairs can walk again, have they always been able to walk?

Healing in Hinduism, Islam..
Their healing is not from good sources, it's from the devil.