Pro life? No, Pro Choice. AHHHH

[Jupiter]

I honestly think that VirtualTeen has opened my eyes to many things. I have seen both sides of this, but you see, I am really confused on this one topic. I have no idea where to stand. I want to join the Pro-Choice group, but there is just something there telling me that it isn't right. I also can't think pro-life, because, if someone is raped, and if someone simply can't afford it, then....

But, I honestly think that if you can't take care of the child, don't take the risk. That's how I normally feel, but sometimes... I just don't know.

[Cybercode]

I honestly think that VirtualTeen has opened my eyes to many things. I have seen both sides of this, but you see, I am really confused on this one topic. I have no idea where to stand. I want to join the Pro-Choice group, but there is just something there telling me that it isn't right. I also can't think pro-life, because, if someone is raped, and if someone simply can't afford it, then....

But, I honestly think that if you can't take care of the child, don't take the risk. That's how I normally feel, but sometimes... I just don't know.

my view is...being pro-life (to an extent) that abortion is wrong. if the couple were ready for un-protected sex, they were ready to take on those risks as well. and therefore they SHOULD (notice how i'm choosing my words, i'm not using MUST, but they SHOULD) take responsibility for their actions and raise the child. On the issue if the environment is not suitable, I'm divided. maybe possibly recruit the support of family members.

for rape victims, this is where i would go pro-choice, but only until a heartbeat is detected. but for the rape victims i'm more lenient.

that's my views on it, but like i said in a previous post, i have no right to tell people how to run their lives. but if my teen daughter comes home pregnant and claims she wants an abortion, i'm putting my foot down as a father who still has rights to her, and i'm telling her that she will have the baby, but of course, i will help and support her and the baby if needed.

[wowisawesome]

I honestly think that VirtualTeen has opened my eyes to many things. I have seen both sides of this, but you see, I am really confused on this one topic. I have no idea where to stand. I want to join the Pro-Choice group, but there is just something there telling me that it isn't right. I also can't think pro-life, because, if someone is raped, and if someone simply can't afford it, then....

But, I honestly think that if you can't take care of the child, don't take the risk. That's how I normally feel, but sometimes... I just don't know.

There are only 2 scenarios where it is ok in my opinion.

1. Rape

2. If her life is in danger.


Any other reason is invalid, and any woman who has an abortion for any other reason is just a lazy bitch that is too conceited to give up the child for adoption/raise it. No exceptions.

[Amnesiac]

Any other reason is invalid, and any woman who has an abortion for any other reason is just a lazy bitch that is too conceited to give up the child for adoption/raise it. No exceptions.

Uhh, no. Don't jump to conclusions like that.

From a perspective based on individual rights, not morality, a mother should have the choice to terminate a pregnancy. The fetus is not living and cannot be considered an independent person; it is wholly dependent on the mother. Therefore, it should be at the mother's discretion what happens to it. Having the bureaucracy push its way (pun intended) into the womb is inappropriate and inefficient.

I've never understood this advocacy of putting babies up for adoption. The orphanage system is grossly overcrowded and underfunded. The world doesn't need more babies. Sure, that may sound cruel, but from a purely logical perspective it's the most reasonable choice.

[Angel Androgynous]

Read this until it hurts. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1504443&postcount=12)

[Syvelocin]

Any other reason is invalid, and any woman who has an abortion for any other reason is just a lazy bitch that is too conceited to give up the child for adoption/raise it. No exceptions.

Holy fuck. I don't care if he's banned, I'm going to respond.

Other than the fact that a woman should not be prevented from making a personal choice like that, there are many, many other reasons, some of which are, but are not limited to:

1. Pregnancy phobia. My girlfriend has this. Don't say this can be overcome, it can, but can you imagine how possibly endangering this could be to both the mother and the baby, depending on the severity? :/
2. (Possibly) preventing a defect or physical or mental illness that would be not very fun to live with/fatal.
3. Money. Obviously.
4. Other wellbeing of the mother or child. Alcoholic mother, abusive mother, mother at risk for post-partum depression (harmful to both her and the baby, women have killed their children with it) or otherwise mentally ill other than the inheritance factor that would cause increased symptoms with the pregnancy or possible harm to the baby through the mother's symptoms, mother without the resources to support both herself and the child, mother in other threatening situation
5. All these considering contraceptives don't work. For instance, I know of a singer I'm very fond of who used contraception but still got pregnant, she chose not to have the child because she didn't want the child to take on her bipolar disorder. But if you, for instance, were my mum who took the pill and that 0.001% or whatever the statistic was, and still got pregnant, well, regardless of the fact that if she did have an abortion I wouldn't be here, that's most definitely not fair.

And I hate that "don't have sex then" argument. Everyone knows that's not going to happen. Such a pointless concept, resisting human traits and carnal desires for no reason. Only good reasons I can see with resisting that urge is not cheating on your significant other and STDs.

Pretty much, I just want to say, you can be pro-choice and be a good Christian person. The difference between pro-life and pro-choice, like the difference between homophobes and people tolerant of sexualities, is the matter of caring about other people's business and thinking it somehow affects you. Pro-choice can only mean you don't want it to be illegal. You don't have to like abortion, it's just allowing women the choice to do what they want with their bodies. Like gay marriage. You don't have to like it. It's just legalizing that concept.

The issue with outlawing abortion is that it won't be completely ridden from the planet. It'll go down, but if a woman really wants an abortion, she better just have a safe one instead of a make-shift one... just saying. We'll go back to the coat-hanger age. It's like hospitals giving drug addicts sterile needles. At least they're safe if they're going to do it anyway.

I'm (you guessed it) pro-choice. Now, if the embryo was alive... ahh, maybe that'd be different.

[Neptune]

This is a very difficult subject for me for a few reasons. 1) I'm not a female, therefore, I cannot actually experience any of this pregnancy stuff. 2) I hate the idea of innocent unborn defenseless children being murdered, by their mother or parents. However, in all reality, this is a way for nature to get rid of unneeded people. This sounds extremely harsh, but, it's the truth. Let's be honest with ourselves, a substantial amount of the aborted babies probably had no future, just judging on the life's of the parents.

If you believe in religion, whatever it is, consider this possibility: God (or whoever you think is in charge) uses abortion to get rid of unneeded humans. Or to prove a lesson in the future. (For example, I know lots of people are regretful about having a abortion in later life. Maybe God uses the abortion for a purpose in later life.) I'm probably going to be called some interesting names, but, this is just my opinion. But what do we all know? Abortion always goes back to religion. The key to understanding whether abortion is right or wrong is whether there is something actually out there that controls stuff. If you believe in Christianity, Muslim or any major religion, it's not okay. But if you believe in something like this (http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal), then I suppose it's okay.

[Zephyr]

If you are unsure on the topic, get to know it and go with your gut feeling. There's wanting to have certain beliefs, and then there is how you actually feel. It's okay to be on the fence or believe in both sides to a certain extent, you don't have to fully fall under one umbrella.

I myself am pro-choice, to a large extent with one exception. I don't support late term abortions if the baby is going to be perfectly healthy, because if you wanted to have an abortion, then you should have done it earlier on; And also changing your mind that late in the game is a bit irresponsible, at least carry it to term and put it up for closed adoption.

But, if the baby is going to be born with something like retardation or is going to have severe medical problems, then I can support the decision to abort it since the quality of life for it would not be great. And of course if the pregnancy is going to be a health risk to the mother, than the life of the mother takes priority over the fetus. If the mother chooses to keep the child, even under said circumstances, then more power to her for taking on the challenge/risk. But it is understandable under those conditions if they do get an abortion.

Pro-choice isn't pro-death and it's not all about aborting, some people don't get that. It's about a woman's right to choose whether it be aborting, keeping, putting up for adoption or even in some cases hand over full custody to the father if he wants it.

[Efflorescence]

If you believe in religion, whatever it is, consider this possibility: God (or whoever you think is in charge) uses abortion to get rid of unneeded humans. Or to prove a lesson in the future. (For example, I know lots of people are regretful about having a abortion in later life. Maybe God uses the abortion for a purpose in later life.) I'm probably going to be called some interesting names, but, this is just my opinion. But what do we all know? Abortion always goes back to religion. The key to understanding whether abortion is right or wrong is whether there is something actually out there that controls stuff. If you believe in Christianity, Muslim or any major religion, it's not okay. But if you believe in something like this (http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal), then I suppose it's okay.

I know atheists who are pro-life. It doesn't have much to do with religion. We live in a world where being pro-life because 'my religion tells me so' doesn't make much sense anymore. I am Christian and pro-life but I'm not pro-life because 'The bible says so'. I am pro-life because I don't believe that someone should have the right to kill an innocent human being and because I believe that the fetus is a person from the start, not that he/she becomes a person when he/she's out of the womb or at some convenient stage. That doesn't make sense to me.

I only agree with abortion in the case where the mother has a high probability of dying if she gives birth. The fetus is still a human being and a person to me but there's nothing much you can do except abort in this case, because if the baby's born, the mother dies.



I'm (you guessed it) pro-choice. Now, if the embryo was alive... ahh, maybe that'd be different.

You can be pro-choice all you want but saying that the embryo is not alive implies that you don't know the difference between living and non-living things.

[Amaryllis]

II am pro-life because I don't believe that someone should have the right to kill an innocent human being and because I believe that the fetus is a person from the start, not that he/she becomes a person when he/she's out of the womb or at some convenient stage. That doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, effing christ. Read this. Read it. Read it now. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1504443&postcount=12)

Adding on to my previous big fat explanation...

In the canadian constitution, the word "everyone" does not apply to fetuses. American citizenship belongs to those "born and naturalised in the United States." The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

Keyword: Born.

Making fetuses to be legal people with rights would create countless social and legal complications. Fetuses would have to be counted in the census, made to be law-abiding and tax-dependant citizens. They would need Certificates of Conception. Would the zygote then have to walk itself over to the hospital and announce its conception?

The concept of this is completely bizarre. However, anti-choicers are continuously emphasising the "fact" that a fetus is indeed a person and should be entitled to the same rights and responsibilities.

The extreme oddity of having a law-abiding fetus is enough to prove that fetuses are not legal people with rights.

Sure, anti-choicers may argue that unique laws should be made for fetuses. However, if we needed to make laws just for them, would that not mean they are incapable of having the same legal status as us?

The very idea that a woman's rights should be overridden by that of a cluster of cells is absolutely insane. What happened to the movement of women's rights? Equality between genders? Why in the world would anyone believe that a fertilised egg had rights that out ruled that of women? I genuinely cannot see the logic in that.

I said this in my previous post and I'll say it again: Women are indisputable human beings with rights.

As for the status of a zygote? That's debatable.

Your birth certificate, the official written naming of a child, marks the first step of a person's existence. So much of what we do is determined by our contribution to society and our social interaction with other people. There isn't much a zygote can do when it's inside its mother's womb.

Anti-choicers claim that every single fertilised egg is sacred, but, about 65% of all conceptions are aborted during the first few weeks of pregnancy, often without the woman's knowledge. Another 15% are miscarried in the months to come. There is a -high- fail rate.

As for the belief that zygotes all of individual souls... Well, these bundle of cells split and divide, as well as recombine. Do twins share the same soul? If they have separate souls, which should is kept if they recombine?

Read this if you didn't read it the first time and still need more proof. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1504443&postcount=12)There goes 4 hours of my life.

[Efflorescence]

Oh, effing christ. Read this. Read it. Read it now. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1504443&postcount=12)

Adding on to my previous big fat explanation...

In the canadian constitution, the word "everyone" does not apply to fetuses. American citizenship belongs to those "born and naturalised in the United States." The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

Keyword: Born.

Making fetuses to be legal people with rights would create countless social and legal complications. Fetuses would have to be counted in the census, made to be law-abiding and tax-dependant citizens. They would need Certificates of Conception. Would the zygote then have to walk itself over to the hospital and announce its conception?

The concept of this is completely bizarre. However, anti-choicers are continuously emphasising the "fact" that a fetus is indeed a person and should be entitled to the same rights and responsibilities.

The extreme oddity of having a law-abiding fetus is enough to prove that fetuses are not legal people with rights.

In here, abortion is illegal and none of the above problems have been created.
And even if the fetus cannot pay taxes and cannot be law-abiding that doesn't make him 'not a person'. That makes him 'not a citizen'. Don't mix citizen with person. A person doesn't mean someone who has to pay taxes and abide by the law.

Sure, anti-choicers may argue that unique laws should be made for fetuses. However, if we needed to make laws just for them, would that not mean they are incapable of having the same legal status as us?

No, it doesn't. In here, there's a law that states that disabled people are entitled to welfare. That is a law just for them. It doen't apply to people who are not disabled but still, they have the same legal status as us, non-disabled.

The very idea that a woman's rights should be overridden by that of a cluster of cells is absolutely insane. What happened to the movement of women's rights? Equality between genders? Why in the world would anyone believe that a fertilised egg had rights that out ruled that of women? I genuinely cannot see the logic in that.

I said this in my previous post and I'll say it again: Women are indisputable human beings with rights.

As for the status of a zygote? That's debatable.

In the past, even the status of a woman, slave, black person were debatable. Men used to say that women were not equal to men. White people used to say that black people were inferior to whites. In some countries, the 'indisputable' fact you've just mentioned is not indisputable beacuse women are still treated as though they were 'half a man'. It is indisputable to you and me that a woman is equal to a man, just as the status of a zygote is indisputable to us pro-lifers.


Your birth certificate, the official written naming of a child, marks the first step of a person's existence. So much of what we do is determined by our contribution to society and our social interaction with other people. There isn't much a zygote can do when it's inside its mother's womb.

There's a story I would like to share with you. In Malta, recently there has been a case where the name of a boy was not written on the birth certificate. Because the parents wanted to give him a name with a Maltese font and those of the birth certificate only had names in the English font. (yes some things are fucked up in here). The parents did not accept and this boy is not officially named. However, he's still a person. This story shows how this debate has nothing to do with official names.

There are also people who cannot contribute much to society for physical and mental reasons. That doesn't give me the right to kill them however.


Anti-choicers claim that every single fertilised egg is sacred, but, about 65% of all conceptions are aborted during the first few weeks of pregnancy, often without the woman's knowledge. Another 15% are miscarried in the months to come. There is a -high- fail rate.

That doen't have to do with anything. People are killed everyday but that doesn't give us the right to kill them.
And bro, I'm pro-life not anti-choice. I bet you wouldn't like it if I called you anti-life, would you?

Read this if you didn't read it the first time and still need more proof. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1504443&postcount=12)There goes 4 hours of my life.

I read it don't worry. I hope you were not serious when you compared the zygote to a piece of dead skin. Seriously? Tell you what we'll do......when a couple decides to undergo IVF treatment, instead of implanting a fertilized egg in the woman's uterus, we will implant a piece of dead skin or cancer cells because according to you these all have the same status.

[kenoloor]

I read it don't worry. I hope you were not serious when you compared the zygote to a piece of dead skin. Seriously? Tell you what we'll do......when a couple decides to undergo IVF treatment, instead of implanting a fertilized egg in the woman's uterus, we will implant a piece of dead skin or cancer cells because according to you these all have the same status.

It's almost laughable that you confuse status with function.

[Jupiter]

I'm NO choice. lolgetit? It's rhymes with pro-choice. Anywho.... I just won't worry about it for a while, then I will, and then I'll choose.,

[Syvelocin]

You can be pro-choice all you want but saying that the embryo is not alive implies that you don't know the difference between living and non-living things.

Movement
Respiration
Sensitivity
Growth
Reproduction
Excretion
Nutrition

Almost.

[Amaryllis]

In here, abortion is illegal and none of the above problems have been created.
And even if the fetus cannot pay taxes and cannot be law-abiding that doesn't make him 'not a person'. That makes him 'not a citizen'. Don't mix citizen with person. A person doesn't mean someone who has to pay taxes and abide by the law.
It doesn't matter what -you- think, or what anyone else thinks. The choice belongs to the pregnant woman because this is -her- body. I'm not talking about countries in which abortion is illegal. I'm saying, some say fetuses have a "right" because they are people and they have rights, too. But why should they have the same rights as us? They don't apply.

No, it doesn't. In here, there's a law that states that disabled people are entitled to welfare. That is a law just for them. It doen't apply to people who are not disabled but still, they have the same legal status as us, non-disabled.
You criticised me for comparing a zygote to dead skin, but now you're comparing a fetus to a "disabled person"? One, they aren't "disabled." They have disabilities. That is not only insulting, it's extremely rude.

If you were to protect every zygote in the world... Oh my, that's going to be bad. There isn't much of a difference between a sperm and an egg and a fertilised egg.

Anti-choicers focus on the similarities between embryos and human beings. But not the differences. Zygotes and blastocysts are barely visible and can only be clearly seen through a microscope. They have no spine, bodies, brains, skeletons or internal organs.

Festuses can't make sounds, breathe, they "poo" and absorb nutrients through the -mother's- umbilical cord. It is completely reliant on the mother during the first trimester. It cannot survive without her and it is attached to her. Therefor, it cannot be regarded as a separate entity.

Another thing, fetuses are not "miniature babies." At various stages, fetuses have funky "spines" that aren't spines, fish-like gills, tails, stalks, fur, distorted torsos, giant heads, alien-looking faces and weird twisted "legs." In fact, they resemble pig or dog fetuses.

The brain is where personhood is but fetuses have no conscious memories.
In the past, even the status of a woman, slave, black person were debatable. Men used to say that women were not equal to men. White people used to say that black people were inferior to whites. In some countries, the 'indisputable' fact you've just mentioned is not indisputable beacuse women are still treated as though they were 'half a man'. It is indisputable to you and me that a woman is equal to a man, just as the status of a zygote is indisputable to us pro-lifers.

There's a story I would like to share with you. In Malta, recently there has been a case where the name of a boy was not written on the birth certificate. Because the parents wanted to give him a name with a Maltese font and those of the birth certificate only had names in the English font. (yes some things are fucked up in here). The parents did not accept and this boy is not officially named. However, he's still a person. This story shows how this debate has nothing to do with official names.
Okay. Huge difference between this boy and a fetus here? Is he attached to the umbilical cord of the mother? Huhuh. No. Is he reliant on her for life? Err. No. Does he respirate? Err. Yeah. Is he an indisputable person with rights? Yes.

There are also people who cannot contribute much to society for physical and mental reasons. That doesn't give me the right to kill them however.
Same as the above. They're people. We can't argue that. They can fend and take care of themselves. No, kids do not count because it is possible to dump them on the streets and have them survive. Zygotes----Mother. Fetus-----Mother.

doen't have to do with anything. People are killed everyday but that doesn't give us the right to kill them.
And bro, I'm pro-life not anti-choice. I bet you wouldn't like it if I called you anti-life, would you?
Okay, okay. Confusion. How do you define the word "life"? The status of a fetus is debatable but wait... What are you even debating about? That abortion should be illegal? Well, I think the woman deserves the choice. You're tackling all the things I said wrong here. Not what I said right.

I'll give it to you. You put up a good argument. I do see the pro-life people's point of view. I just called you anti-choicers because it helped my argument. This isn't personal. I click a thread. I pick a side. I argue that side.

I read it don't worry. I hope you were not serious when you compared the zygote to a piece of dead skin. Seriously? Tell you what we'll do......when a couple decides to undergo IVF treatment, instead of implanting a fertilized egg in the woman's uterus, we will implant a piece of dead skin or cancer cells because according to you these all have the same status.
I'm picking at anti-choicers use of language here.

Fertilised eggs used in in-vitro fertilisation. Those that aren't inserted in the woman are routinely thrown away. is this murder?

One last thing. You're picking at all the things I said "wrong", but do you believe I've said some things "right"? Because I completely understand where pro-lives are coming from. My mother was and is one. That's why she didn't abort me. I have my reasons for being pro-choice. One of them is: I wish I was aborted so I didn't have to go through my mother's shit. She's mentally unstable and she should not have had a child she couldn't care for or love.

I explained the unwanted fetus argument in the post I linked you to.

[Jupiter]

Z, I'm glad your mom didn't get an abortion. Do you have any idea how many people's lives you have touched? One is mine. I love you Z, don't EVER leave.

[acurasrock]

I'm more of a Pro-Life type of person, if you created the child out of love, then it should have a right to life. If a rape was the cause, or if the pregnancy is going wrong and the baby is in danger, then decisions will have to be made at that point. Abortion should not be used as a form of "emergency contraception" like it is all too much these days. Teen pregnancies are out of control in America, but mainly because of bad decisions not to use protection, not using it properly, or just being young, dumb, and careless. Health Education should be mandatory every year in every high school!!

[fatguystrangler]

There are only 2 scenarios where it is ok in my opinion.

1. Rape

2. If her life is in danger.


Any other reason is invalid, and any woman who has an abortion for any other reason is just a lazy bitch that is too conceited to give up the child for adoption/raise it. No exceptions.

Even though you're banned I'll reply anyway. I fully agree with you.

[wally]

i am very conservative in my beliefs and am pro-life, and believe that abortion is not the right way to go. however i do believe that their are extenuating circumstances that would make an abortion ok, such as: rape, and the unborn child being a major health threat to the mother.

[deadpie]

Even though you're banned I'll reply anyway. I fully agree with you.

You mean you're agreeing with yourself, because you ARE thatfatguy and wowisawesome.

[kenoloor]

Movement
Respiration
Sensitivity
Growth
Reproduction
Excretion
Nutrition

Almost.

/thread

Yepp. This is what I was too lazy to look up earlier. Thanks.

You mean you're agreeing with yourself, because you ARE thatfatguy and wowisawesome.

Also, this. Subtlety isn't your thing, is it?

[Jean Poutine]

here's how it is in simple terms :

fetuses do not have legal personhood until born alive and viable.

fetuses, not having legal personhood, have no rights.

fetuses having no rights, they have no particular "right to life" that society should protect.

if fetuses are not people and if they have no rights then they are to be considered as being part of a woman's body. abortion is within the scope of what a woman can do to herself if she wants to.

hence, killing fetuses (an abortion) is fine.

read this (http://canlii.ca/s/pda7)

read this (http://canlii.ca/s/pbiz)

and read this (http://canlii.ca/s/pdl1)

thank you good night pro-life is dumb.

[fatguystrangler]

here's how it is in simple terms :

fetuses do not have legal personhood until born alive and viable.

fetuses, not having legal personhood, have no rights.

fetuses having no rights, they have no particular "right to life" that society should protect.

if fetuses are not people and if they have no rights then they are to be considered as being part of a woman's body. abortion is within the scope of what a woman can do to herself if she wants to.

hence, killing fetuses (an abortion) is fine.

read this (http://canlii.ca/s/pda7)

read this (http://canlii.ca/s/pbiz)

and read this (http://canlii.ca/s/pdl1)

thank you good night pro-life is dumb.


The law is capable of being wrong. Just because it is not "legally" a person does not mean it is not alive.

[fatguystrangler]

You mean you're agreeing with yourself, because you ARE thatfatguy and wowisawesome.

Whatever you say bro

[Sage]

I consider myself pro-choice, because I don't feel it's the duty of the government to make sure people live with the consequences of poor decisions in their sex lives.

[Jean Poutine]

The law is capable of being wrong. Just because it is not "legally" a person does not mean it is not alive.

i no u trol bt me no care

Law is a kind of philosophy, and I'd much rather bring out some proof on the table to advance my viewpoint than relentlessly chant "FETUSES ARE ALIVE! FETUSES ARE ALIVE!" each time this debate comes on.

Supreme Court panels can be wrong (very very rarely). I think the viewpoint of a bunch of learned people who have spent decades molding themselves and their thinking inside a strict system of logic is much more valuable than the viewpoint of a common pro-lifer, a faction known for chanting repetitive mantras with little or nothing backing them.

Sue me.

[Efflorescence]

It doesn't matter what -you- think, or what anyone else thinks. The choice belongs to the pregnant woman because this is -her- body. I'm not talking about countries in which abortion is illegal. I'm saying, some say fetuses have a "right" because they are people and they have rights, too. But why should they have the same rights as us? They don't apply.

Why not? I don't deny a woman her rights. If she wants to make a plastic surgery, C-section, whatever, removing a beauty mark....she can because it's her body. Except that there's a tiny difference between a beauty mark and a zygote (refer to argument below).

You criticised me for comparing a zygote to dead skin, but now you're comparing a fetus to a "disabled person"? One, they aren't "disabled." They have disabilities. That is not only insulting, it's extremely rude.

If you were to protect every zygote in the world... Oh my, that's going to be bad. There isn't much of a difference between a sperm and an egg and a fertilised egg.

I'm comparing a fetus to a 'disabled person' because they are both persons.
A piece of dead skin and a zygote have nothing to do with one another because the zygote is alive whilst dead skin is well, dead.
And I didn't say that to be rude. I have an uncle who's disabled and I love him very much so I definitely did not want to insult anyone. And by saying 'disabled people' I'm not insulting anyone just like by saying 'black people' I'm not insulting black people.

There's a lot of difference between a sperm and an egg, and a zygote. If you feed a sperm or an egg it can never grow into a child and then, an adult. But the fetus can and will, if you allow it. So they are definitely different. You could never have become 'you' from a sperm on its own or an egg on its own even if that egg or sperm is fed. However you became 'you' from a zygote, from those 'bunch of cells'.

Anti-choicers focus on the similarities between embryos and human beings. But not the differences. Zygotes and blastocysts are barely visible and can only be clearly seen through a microscope. They have no spine, bodies, brains, skeletons or internal organs.

Their brains etc, etc, may not be there but the genetic code for growing all these things you mentioned is already there in the zygote's DNA. A zygote cannot grow a bird brain or an alien brain. It grows a human brain so the embryo is a human embryo.
The fact that they are barely visible doesn't make them 'not human'. Science has taught us how we cannot always rely on our eyes.

Festuses can't make sounds, breathe, they "poo" and absorb nutrients through the -mother's- umbilical cord. It is completely reliant on the mother during the first trimester. It cannot survive without her and it is attached to her. Therefor, it cannot be regarded as a separate entity.

The body of a zygote is inside the body of the mother but their bodies are not one and the same. The zygote has a completely unique DNA from that of the mother so the zygote is not 'the mother'.

Another thing, fetuses are not "miniature babies." At various stages, fetuses have funky "spines" that aren't spines, fish-like gills, tails, stalks, fur, distorted torsos, giant heads, alien-looking faces and weird twisted "legs." In fact, they resemble pig or dog fetuses.


The fact that they resemble dog or pig fetuses doesn't mean they are. The offspring of two human beings cannot be anything but human just like the offspring of two monkeys cannot be anything but monkey. What the fetus looks like is unimportant.

Okay. Huge difference between this boy and a fetus here? Is he attached to the umbilical cord of the mother? Huhuh. No. Is he reliant on her for life? Err. No. Does he respirate? Err. Yeah. Is he an indisputable person with rights? Yes.

Same as the above. They're people. We can't argue that. They can fend and take care of themselves. No, kids do not count because it is possible to dump them on the streets and have them survive. Zygotes----Mother. Fetus-----Mother.

The boy is still dependant on other persons to live. We all are. A person who has had a kidney failure has to use a kidney dialysis machine in order to be able to survive. Without using the machine, the person dies, but he/she is still a person. Just like the fetus. If you take away the umbilical cord, the fetus doesn't survive but he/she's still a person. It isn't your ability to survive and be independant that makes one a person. One's ability to survive in a particular situation depends only on the technology available to keep one alive.

Okay, okay. Confusion. How do you define the word "life"? The status of a fetus is debatable but wait... What are you even debating about? That abortion should be illegal? Well, I think the woman deserves the choice. You're tackling all the things I said wrong here. Not what I said right.

Life: The ability of an organism to move, respond to stimuli, respire, feed, reproduce, excrete and grow. It is not important how it feeds, it is not important how it excretes or how it respires, the important thing is that it does. In some way or another, it does.

When it comes to the woman's right to choose, this is the whole point isn't it? I think that eveyone has the right to choose but not if that choice kills another human being. This is the key phrase: not if that choice kills another human being.

I'll give it to you. You put up a good argument. I do see the pro-life people's point of view. I just called you anti-choicers because it helped my argument. This isn't personal. I click a thread. I pick a side. I argue that side.

Ok, you're right. I shouldn't have gotten so worked up on that.:)

I'm picking at anti-choicers use of language here.

Fertilised eggs used in in-vitro fertilisation. Those that aren't inserted in the woman are routinely thrown away. is this murder?.

Umm, yeah. It is. And it is also a from of discrimination because the doctor is choosing a person (a fetus) over another to live.

One last thing. You're picking at all the things I said "wrong", but do you believe I've said some things "right"? Because I completely understand where pro-lives are coming from. My mother was and is one. That's why she didn't abort me. I have my reasons for being pro-choice. One of them is: I wish I was aborted so I didn't have to go through my mother's shit. She's mentally unstable and she should not have had a child she couldn't care for or love.


Not on topic:
Oh God. When I read this I gasped. Even I had an experience with regards to abortion.My mother was going to abort me and dad convinced her not to do it. They were in England and abortion is legal there. I heard them discussing this event once and it's been about four years since I've really had a proper conversation with my mother. Even though she didn't abort me, I still cannot bring myself to have a proper relationship with her.
And I'm glad you've been born even though I don't know you very well.;). from what I've seen of you, I can understand why you have a fan club. Now you have to believe it.

I explained the unwanted fetus argument in the post I linked you to.

Fetuses can grow up and suffer yes. However, you can never know that for certain. There are many people who had everything going against them in life but made it all the same. Everyone deserves a chance.

It's almost laughable that you confuse status with function.

It's a pity that you found it almost laughable and not completely laughable. I would have been very glad if I had made you laugh. 'Laughter is the best medicine', they always say.:)

[Amaryllis]

Confusion, you're addressing some of my points, but not all. You're sticking to the same thing, that a fetus is a person who has rights and deserves to live. You're disregarding many of my points here.

Fetuses are different from human beings. The fetus is -completely- dependant on the mother's body for survival. It cannot possibly survive without her. Sure, you may say that born babies are dependant on people, but here's the difference: The fetus is dependant on one woman alone. She, solely, supports that child.

The fetus is basically -using- this woman's body for 9 months. Anybody can care a newborn, but no one except the body it recides in can take care of the fetus. Babies are held and cared for externally, fetuses reside -inside- the mother. I've said this in my previous post, but are you required to jump into a river to save a drowning victim? If not, why should the woman be required to loan her body to this fetus?

There is a crucial point you have failed to address and that is: The non-existent do not regret their non-existence. Embryos, zygotes and fetuses are lost all the time, Had you not had been born, it wouldn't matter to you.

You keep saying "fetuses deserve a chance" but fetuses really don't care. The ones who do are anti-choicers like you identify with fertilised eggs and feel that they represent unique human beings just like you. But oh god, I'm a broken record, the non-existent do not regret their non-existence.

The fetus does not care if it is "killed", it doesn't even have the brain capacity for conscious thought yet, much less memory. It -really doesn't care-.

A fetus may be a -potential- human being, or have some similarities with a human being but it isn't a human being. It has no social or legal rights. There're huge differences between newborn babies and fetuses. The status and value of a fetus is subjective and personal. Therefor, pregnant women deserve the choice.

[Genghis Khan]

-sigh- Pro-life people are, in a nutshell, people arguing 'where do you draw the line between living and non-living' whilst drawing their own lines.

[colz]

For me, my view is pro-life and only see abortion appropriate if someone were to get raped. Other than that though, I see no reason to have an abortion. To me it's almost the same as murder, except a form you can get away with legally.

[Korashk]

I don't believe that someone should have the right to kill an innocent human being and because I believe that the fetus is a person from the start, not that he/she becomes a person when he/she's out of the womb or at some convenient stage. That doesn't make sense to me.
Well, it sucks that you don't understand. Fetuses are not people in any sense of the word that matters. This is a FACT. Calling fetuses people would be like saying that the clear sky is green at noon. You can believe it all you want, but it will never be true.

Abortion is not about the fetus at all. It is about the rights of the mother. Namely, the right to not be a slave. Outlawing abortion is no different than the government forcing blood or kidney donation. I do not have to unwillingly provide for the health of another human being, so why should pregnant women be forced to?

[mac42]

I am always amazed in america the view on this subject. In sweden it is legal to have abortion in first 18 weeks. But here is the thing, people rarely do it because Swede's still view it as quite gruesome. The thought is that if you were raped or your life is at risk, you have the right but other wise, if you were irresponsible, you should let the child live.

Why are americans ok with the idea of just ditching a pregnancy because it is a "choice"? I do not understand, it was also your choice to have sex too... In sweden if people find out you had abortion (without medical reason), you are looked at very differently.

[Jess]

because abortion, in my opinion and many others, is a woman's right.

[Jupiter]

MY DECISION.
After a month of wondering, I have decided I am mostly pro-choice.

The one time it is not acceptable is if the baby is finally showing signs of life. But other than that, man, it's the chick's choice.

[Iris]

I am always amazed in america the view on this subject. In sweden it is legal to have abortion in first 18 weeks. But here is the thing, people rarely do it because Swede's still view it as quite gruesome. The thought is that if you were raped or your life is at risk, you have the right but other wise, if you were irresponsible, you should let the child live.

Why are americans ok with the idea of just ditching a pregnancy because it is a "choice"? I do not understand, it was also your choice to have sex too... In sweden if people find out you had abortion (without medical reason), you are looked at very differently.

For the record, if the fetus is considered a person, then how is it allowed to be aborted if it's the result of rape? It's still a person isn't it? Your 'logic' is flawed.

Furthermore, ignoring the fact that a fetus isn't a child, why should anyone be forced to carry around something that can ruin their lives and end their dreams, as well as put their lives at risk? Raising a child is a huge responsibility, and if the parent is not in the right mental and emotional state to raise it properly, both the parent and child will suffer. Also, while the fatality rate of deaths during birth have dropped significantly, it's still a very real risk. No one has the right to subject the woman to that. Finally, if the woman is really dead-set on getting an abortion, she will get that fucking abortion. Whether she has to take care of it on her own or with some quack alleyway doctor. It will happen. And the chances of her dying are pretty high. So you would risk the death of a fully-formed, independent human for a tiny, parasite-like cluster of cells that can't function at all on it's own?

My point: Even if you do believe the fetus is a person, forcing the woman to abstain from aborting it will be causing more harm than good.

[Bath]

Why are americans ok with the idea of just ditching a pregnancy because it is a "choice"? I do not understand, it was also your choice to have sex too...

What if somebody doesn't want kids until they're around 30? All the years before that, are they supposed to never have sex with their partners because of the risk?

I hate that reason. "It was your choice to have sex, you have to live with the consequences!" Do you fail to have any empathy at all? Accidents DO happen.

[mac42]

I never said accident don't happen, but in this world, we must take responsibility for our actions. That is the problem with the younger generation that I see. We all expect hand outs and do-overs. imo, that is not how it works.

I am a very strong believer in the adoption system because my brother was adopted as an infant. There is such a huge waiting list of families that cannot have their own children, that i personally can not see past this. Like I said, if you had sex and got pregnant, you did know the risks, so at he very least let the child be born and move to a better situation. Rape and life or death is totally different, we all know that. You can say my logic is flawed, but you have to understand where I am coming from too.

When I see my brothers face, I can not imagine his (very young) mother giving up on him and not allowing him to live a better life with us since she was so young. Sure, he was just a fetus then, but now he is a happy, vibrant child. Thats the big pictures, and that is how I think.

[Sogeking]

I'm pro-life in that I think a woman shouldn't go through with an abortion. I think she should consider all other options before going through one. It's not a pretty operation and there are risks involved (as with all other operations). And I think the fetus is worth more than what we give it credit for.

However, I'm pro-choice in that I respect the women's right to seek an abortion for any or no reason at all. I may not like it but that does not give me the right to infringe on your right to do whatever you want to do with your body. You can do whatever you want with your body and you shouldn't care what other people think. Sure, other people's opinions way have an influence your decision, but in the end, It's your choice.

Pro-life (the way I would use it)≠ Anti-choice.

[Jonni]

I'm pro-if you had sex intentionally it's your fault and you're a dumbass if you kill your baby cause of your mistake but if it's not your fault then it's your choice because you didn't mean for it to happen

... so that's pro choice?

[mac42]

I agree with the last two post, I never said anywhere that we should make abortion 100% illegal. I just gave my stance on the issue. My whole point is, we should not put abortion in good light because it is quite gruesome. That's my problem with the issues and some of the arguments. Abortion should be a last resort option, not something we praise and suggest as a "way out". A choice is a choice, but I always say we should give life a chance. After all, you never know what that small fetus could end up doing for the world.

[Genghis Khan]

I'm pro-if you had sex intentionally it's your fault and you're a dumbass if you kill your baby cause of your mistake but if it's not your fault then it's your choice because you didn't mean for it to happen

... so that's pro choice?

pro-no real stance on the issue.

[SwimRunSleep]

There are only 2 scenarios where it is ok in my opinion.

1. Rape

2. If her life is in danger.


Any other reason is invalid, and any woman who has an abortion for any other reason is just a lazy bitch that is too conceited to give up the child for adoption/raise it. No exceptions.

Don't know if I can get banned for this but I have to agree with the above. I was adopted and I wouldn't be here if my mother made the other choice.

[Jonni]

pro-no real stance on the issue.

There ya go.

[Jess]

Don't know if I can get banned for this but I have to agree with the above. I was adopted and I wouldn't be here if my mother made the other choice.

that's because it was her choice. she chose not to have an abortion.

I will repeat with Lilys said - if the woman is really set on getting an abortion, she will get that abortion

[CrashingWaves]

If the parents are not ready to raise a kid I think they should have the right to be able to abort. I just think it is always better for the kid to be raised by his biological parents.

[mac42]

Don't know if I can get banned for this but I have to agree with the above. I was adopted and I wouldn't be here if my mother made the other choice.

I understand where you are coming from, but people will never understand our feelings on the issue. You as an adopted child and me as a person with an adopted sibling, we have a personal connection with the subject and these others mostly do not.

(no offense to others, but we are coming from a very different angle here)

[dead]

I understand where you are coming from, but people will never understand our feelings on the issue. You as an adopted child and me as a person with an adopted sibling, we have a personal connection with the subject and these others mostly do not.

(no offense to others, but we are coming from a very different angle here)

All of my friends who are adopted (I have 5) are pro-choice.

[SwimRunSleep]

What if somebody doesn't want kids until they're around 30? All the years before that, are they supposed to never have sex with their partners because of the risk?

I hate that reason. "It was your choice to have sex, you have to live with the consequences!" Do you fail to have any empathy at all? Accidents DO happen.

I'm one of those accidents...-_- look how I've turned out, pretty good actually.

I understand where you are coming from, but people will never understand our feelings on the issue. You as an adopted child and me as a person with an adopted sibling, we have a personal connection with the subject and these others mostly do not.

(no offense to others, but we are coming from a very different angle here)

Yeah, both my sister and I are adopted into a good family. I see how we can relate on this issue and others can't. All why can do is ask "Why?" if I had a "accident" -_- I would probably put our kid up for adoption. It's her body I know but if we both made the mistake we both have an equal say. My parents would push the adoption issue. Don't plan on sleeping with a girl untill I'm married.


Originally Posted by wowisawesome
There are only 2 scenarios where it is ok in my opinion.

1. Rape

2. If her life is in danger.


Any other reason is invalid, and any woman who has an abortion for any other reason is just a lazy bitch that is too conceited to give up the child for adoption/raise it. No exceptions.

Like I said I would still have to stand my ground on the statement above.

that's because it was her choice. she chose not to have an abortion.

I will repeat with Lilys said - if the woman is really set on getting an abortion, she will get that abortion


...Jesus bro.

[mac42]

All of my friends who are adopted (I have 5) are pro-choice.

I have never met anyone with any connection to the adoption process that is pro-choice, so your friends are very rare case im sorry to say. I know lots people (in 2 different countries) that are adopted/have adopted siblings and would never utter the words pro choice.

[embers]

I have never met anyone with any connection to the adoption process that is pro-choice, so your friends are very rare case im sorry to say. I know lots people (in 2 different countries) that are adopted/have adopted siblings and would never utter the words pro choice.

Don't use personal experiences to generalise a population. You can't make that statement and expect it to be true unless you know how the actual majority of adopted people feel about abortion.

[mac42]

Don't use personal experiences to generalise a population. You can't make that statement and expect it to be true unless you know how the actual majority of adopted people feel about abortion.


I pointed out my experience just like the person I responded to.

Is it hard to understand why pro-adoption people are pro-life? I thought it was obvious....

[deadpie]

I pointed out my experience just like the person I responded to.

Using personal experiences is known to be the WORST thing you can possibly, EVER DO in a debate. It makes your points so overly subjective that it's a yawnfest.

Is it hard to understand why pro-adoption people are pro-life? I thought it was obvious....

Where are you popping this bullshit or truthfulshit out of? You have no fucking resources you've posted. By the way, there's no statistic to prove it. No test has been done yet.

Ok kids, you can go back to your never ending abortion debate that goes absolutely nowhere.

[embers]

I pointed out my experience just like the person I responded to.

You basically said that your personal experience proves that pro-choice people who are adopted are a rarity. It absolutely doesn't.

[mac42]

Using personal experiences is known to be the WORST thing you can possibly, EVER DO in a debate. It makes your points so overly subjective that it's a yawnfest.



Where are you popping this bullshit or truthfulshit out of? You have no fucking resources you've posted. By the way, there's no statistic to prove it. No test has been done yet.

Ok kids, you can go back to your never ending abortion debate that goes absolutely nowhere.

ah, but this is where you are wrong. In a debate such as this one, everyone bases their opinion off personal experiences. Pro-choice vs. Pro-Life is not an opinion you pick based of statistics and articles, its an opinion you pick based on personal feelings.

I have already explained why I feel this way. I look a my brother and cannot imagine his young mother just giving up on him. That's my view, that's why I feel so strongly about it. How come I cannot have my opinion without it being called BS or being cursed at? It makes your response very... unobjective.

[embers]

ah, but this is where you are wrong. In a debate such as this one, everyone bases their opinion off personal experiences. Pro-choice vs. Pro-Life is not an opinion you pick based of statistics and articles, its an opinion you pick based on personal feelings.

I have already explained why I feel this way. I look a my brother and cannot imagine his young mother just giving up on him. That's my view, that's why I feel so strongly about it. How come I cannot have my opinion without it being called BS or being cursed at? It makes your response very... unobjective.

He was referring to the generalisation you made about the beliefs of adopted people, not your stance on abortion.

[mac42]

He was referring to the generalisation you made about the beliefs of adopted people, not your stance on abortion.

I still find it quite sad that opposing view cannot be discussed without cursing and anger.

And I stand by my "generalization" that the majority of Pro-adoption people are pro-life.

[embers]

And I stand by my "generalization" that the majority of Pro-adoption people are pro-life.

Do you have any foundation or evidence here or are you satisfied with your claim having as much validity as my claim that the majority of scientists are space-Nazis?

[mac42]

Do you have any foundation or evidence here or are you satisfied with your claim having as much validity as my claim that the majority of scientists are space-Nazis?

Psychology.

It is hard to put into words, but once you adopt a child, the thought of abortion becomes very different in your head. I would personally feel quite guilty to support abortion because of my brother. Bash me all you want for bringing personal feelings into this, but I can count 20 families I know between USA and SE that are all pro-life and they all have adopted children. I don't have websites, I don't have articles. That's what I have.

Honestly, it is not that "out there" to suggest that most pro-adoption people are pro-life. :confused: If you all think it is, I guess it is safe to say, without a personal connection, you will prob never understand. I'm not asking to change your opinion, I'm stating mine.

[embers]

Psychology.

It is hard to put into words, but once you adopt a child, the thought of abortion becomes very different in your head. I would personally feel quite guilty to support abortion because of my brother. Bash me all you want for bringing personal feelings into this, but I can count 20 families I know between USA and SE that are all pro-life and they all have adopted children. I don't have websites, I don't have articles. That's what I have.

Honestly, it is not that "out there" to suggest that most pro-adoption people are pro-life. :confused: If you all think it is, I guess it is safe to say, without a personal connection, you will prob never understand. I'm not asking to change your opinion, I'm stating mine.

I understand what you mean, I'm just saying it's pretty pointless to generalise a population's thought on a subject based on how you / a small number of people respond to it. It's not 'out there', it just... lacks a lot of foundation.

[dead]

Psychology.

It is hard to put into words, but once you adopt a child, the thought of abortion becomes very different in your head. I would personally feel quite guilty to support abortion because of my brother. Bash me all you want for bringing personal feelings into this, but I can count 20 families I know between USA and SE that are all pro-life and they all have adopted children. I don't have websites, I don't have articles. That's what I have.

Honestly, it is not that "out there" to suggest that most pro-adoption people are pro-life. :confused: If you all think it is, I guess it is safe to say, without a personal connection, you will prob never understand. I'm not asking to change your opinion, I'm stating mine.

If you knew anything about how people think in the USA, you would know that the majority of peoples ideals and culture change dramtically based on the area they live in.

[mac42]

If you knew anything about how people think in the USA, you would know that the majority of peoples ideals and culture change dramtically based on the area they live in.

No offense, but that applies to the entire world.

At the end of the day, both sides will never agree or understand each other. I can sit here all day and explain my side but it is worthless. I can see now that each side fuels itself with a very different kind of heart.

[dead]

No offense, but that applies to the entire world.

At the end of the day, both sides will never agree or understand each other. I can sit here all day and explain my side but it is worthless. I can see now that each side fuels itself with a very different kind of heart.

The majority of adopted people here do not have the same views has the majority where you live.

[SwimRunSleep]

Let me ask you ALL one thing, would you rather be living good, dead, or a bad life? I don't give a eff who you are just answer.

[embers]

Let me ask you ALL one thing, would you rather be living good, dead, or a bad life? I don't give a eff who you are just answer.

The answer to that will be subjective to what people have experienced throughout their lives until now; if you're hoping to use that answer to argue for a zygote's life then it won't really work.

[SwimRunSleep]

The answer to that will be subjective to what people have experienced throughout their lives until now; if you're hoping to use that answer to argue for a zygote's life then it won't really work.

Dude, GTFO before I make a smart comment...

[Jess]

Let me ask you ALL one thing, would you rather be living good, dead, or a bad life? I don't give a eff who you are just answer.

I rather be living a good life.

[mac42]

The majority of adopted people here do not have the same views has the majority where you live.

I live in the USA right now.......

[SwimRunSleep]

The majority of adopted people here do not have the same views has the majority where you live.

Where I'm from (Iowa, Usa) I have yet to meet a adopted girl or guy for that matter say that they're pro-choice. They have exceptions but other than that, they think it's wrong. None of us would be here if it weren't for our parents choice. How many people do you think have died that might have made world records? Maybe a few or none we won't know. (I think that's used in a lot of arguments). Why do we even have this thread if all we're going to do is rant and vent to each other? There's no point in wasting our time, it's YOUR view. Just don't be stupid about it, here in America we take things for granted. Most of us have families, food, water, shelter, money, if you're on a computer or portable device that's yours don't tell me you don't have money. Most people in other countries don't have this, I'm not saying ALL Americans/US Residents have this but 70% of us do or more. Take this into view, please don't replay too this and troll or just make stupid comments on it just read.

[mac42]

Where I'm from (Iowa, Usa) I have yet to meet a adopted girl or guy for that matter say that they're pro-choice. They have exceptions but other than that, they think it's wrong. None of us would be here if it weren't for our parents choice. How many people do you think have died that might have made world records? Maybe a few or none we won't know. (I think that's used in a lot of arguments). Why do we even have this thread if all we're going to do is rant and vent to each other? There's no point in wasting our time, it's YOUR view. Just don't be stupid about it, here in America we take things for granted. Most of us have families, food, water, shelter, money, if you're on a computer or portable device that's yours don't tell me you don't have money. Most people in other countries don't have this, I'm not saying ALL Americans/US Residents have this but 70% of us do or more. Take this into view, please don't replay too this and troll or just make stupid comments on it just read.

^This.

You know, reading through this thread has made me sad. Almost every time a pro-lifer posted something, a pro-choicer swooped in a railed that poster. Cursing, name calling, sarcasm... heck I even got negative rep points for posting my views, which I tried to do respectfully without cursing or name calling.

I wanted this to be objective and for people to understand the thought process of a pro-lifer, but apparently that is not open for discussion. Very sad, and not the best representation of the Pro-choice community.

I have had plenty of good convo's with pro-choice people, but here, I am sad to say, this does not seem possible.

[deadpie]

I'm just going to say this is by far one of the shittiest, garbage, subjective, boring, bland, threads I've ever seen on this site in two years. This debate has literally gone nowhere, and it's also a big whine-fest.

I hate this term "Pro Life", because most people that I know that are "pro life" are for the death penalty and for wars that they're uneducated about. That isn't very pro living at all.

Pro choice is not a problem. You're for any choice a woman makes. The nonliving can not feel bad for being dead. And yes, when you ask me, "BUT WHAT IF YOUR MOM GOT AN ABORTION", I'd be definitely ok with it. I'm the perfect example as to why dysfunctional families shouldn't raise children. And also, how could I even have a stance if I don't have the conscious to even feel bad about being instantly killed as a fetus? Does that sound logical in any way shape or form?

You can say that you're against abortion because you're a faithful person, but abortion is never mentioned in the bible and your God kills over 40,000 of his own creations.

And don't do this bullshit where you're making exceptions for abortion only if it's rape. There's other reasons people really need to have it. To save their own life, to not be a shitty parent and raise a kid with a horrible life, to not make a family lose even more money on a kid, et al.

I don't really care whether you think it's right or wrong. It's funny how 90 percent of politicians that are against abortion are men, yet none of those men are ever going to get pregnant. They don't also risk having to raise a baby where the father is the rapist for example, and there's many others you can think of if you have a creative mind.


If you're getting shit talked and all that stuff here on VT or in a debate it's either -

1) We're sick of hearing the same bullshit opinions that mean nothing at all and go absolutely nowhere.

2) You're not being logical and/or you're making hypocritical statements.

3) Women on this forum can be very offended easily on this subject, so men, when you try to debate this subject with a girl, you should already prepare yourself.

And no, I'm not going to say this post I made is any better or worse than the others. It's just as equally useless, pointless, and not going to go anywhere. Maybe it's because people just don't want to see different sides that weren't implanted into their heads by their parents, television, friends, or religion. Maybe they've never known any personal fucking experiences. I've been very close to people who've had to make the tough decisions, even be sort of part of the decision. And that's that.

[embers]

>Mfw pro-life people on here keep on arguing from experience that 'no adopted person they have seen' is pro-life

Stop doing that. It isn't an argument. Generalising populations like that CAN'T further your argument.

[Efflorescence]

I'm just going to say this is by far one of the shittiest, garbage, subjective, boring, bland, threads I've ever seen on this site in two years. This debate has literally gone nowhere, and it's also a big whine-fest.

I hate this term "Pro Life", because most people that I know that are "pro life" are for the death penalty and for wars that they're uneducated about. That isn't very pro living at all.


There are also pro choicers that are for the death penalty. That isn't very pro choice, isn't? It just goes both ways, man.
Yes, I'm one of those who agrees with the death penalty in some cases, I admit it. Because the person who's gonna be killed is guilty, not innocent.

We didn't call ourselves 'pro life'. Other people call us 'pro life' or 'anti choice' , whatever. It's just a word. The idea is what counts.

Pro choice is not a problem. You're for any choice a woman makes. The nonliving can not feel bad for being dead. And yes, when you ask me, "BUT WHAT IF YOUR MOM GOT AN ABORTION", I'd be definitely ok with it. I'm the perfect example as to why dysfunctional families shouldn't raise children. And also, how could I even have a stance if I don't have the conscious to even feel bad about being instantly killed as a fetus? Does that sound logical in any way shape or form?

You can say that you're against abortion because you're a faithful person, but abortion is never mentioned in the bible and your God kills over 40,000 of his own creations.


I'm 'faithful' but I don't mention God in most of my posts. In fact , to tell the truth, it is you who keeps on mentioning God and religion in fuckin everything.

And don't do this bullshit where you're making exceptions for abortion only if it's rape. There's other reasons people really need to have it. To save their own life, to not be a shitty parent and raise a kid with a horrible life, to not make a family lose even more money on a kid, et al.


I don't make an exception not even when it's rape.

I don't really care whether you think it's right or wrong. It's funny how 90 percent of politicians that are against abortion are men, yet none of those men are ever going to get pregnant. They don't also risk having to raise a baby where the father is the rapist for example, and there's many others you can think of if you have a creative mind.


I'm a female and I ran the risk you mentioned.


If you're getting shit talked and all that stuff here on VT or in a debate it's either -

1) We're sick of hearing the same bullshit opinions that mean nothing at all and go absolutely nowhere.

2) You're not being logical and/or you're making hypocritical statements.

3) Women on this forum can be very offended easily on this subject, so men, when you try to debate this subject with a girl, you should already prepare yourself.

And no, I'm not going to say this post I made is any better or worse than the others. It's just as equally useless, pointless, and not going to go anywhere. Maybe it's because people just don't want to see different sides that weren't implanted into their heads by their parents, television, friends, or religion. Maybe they've never known any personal fucking experiences. I've been very close to people who've had to make the tough decisions, even be sort of part of the decision. And that's that.

Yeah it's true, because I've had my own experiences. It's just that they are personal and I don't want to share. In fact I have already shared something which I shouldn't have.
And it's all pointless but we do it because we have nothing better to do. Or because we have something better to do and we don't feel like doing it (like studying).


Well, it sucks that you don't understand. Fetuses are not people in any sense of the word that matters. This is a FACT. Calling fetuses people would be like saying that the clear sky is green at noon. You can believe it all you want, but it will never be true.


If it were a fact, we wouldn't be debating it. The way I see it, all human beings are persons, including fetuses, humans with severe mental and physical disabilities, babies, toddlers, women, children, men. It sucks that you don't understand.

Abortion is not about the fetus at all. It is about the rights of the mother. Namely, the right to not be a slave. Outlawing abortion is no different than the government forcing blood or kidney donation. I do not have to unwillingly provide for the health of another human being, so why should pregnant women be forced to?

The state does force you to pay for your child till he's 18/21 years old, however, by law. So even if you don't want to, you have to.
And if you argue that the woman would be a slave, then I can argue that even the fetus is a slave in this context. Now we can fool ourselves and say 'there's nothing that you have to do' and all this shit, but it's not true. It can never be true even if you believe it.

[Amaryllis]

There are also pro choicers that are for the death penalty. That isn't very pro choice, isn't? It just goes both ways, man.
Yes, I'm one of those who agrees with the death penalty in some cases, I admit it. Because the person who's gonna be killed is guilty, not innocent.
How are you completely sure they are guilty? Tons of innocent people are prosecuted for the wrong reasons.

You say you are against abortion because it is killing a life. But if that is your line of logic - does that not mean no one has the right to kill the life of anyone? And should that not include fetuses? What of the life of the mother? What if she is physically incapable of supporting that fetus? Why do the rights of the fetus(which are questionable) out rule that of the woman? The very being it's survival relies on? Why should the woman not have the right to her own body? To take control of her own life?

Which fertilised egg actually even gives a damn about not being born? The non-existent do not regret their non-existence.

We didn't call ourselves 'pro life'. Other people call us 'pro life' or 'anti choice' , whatever. It's just a word. The idea is what counts.
A debate is an argument and in arguments - you pick every little thing apart. You find flaws in everything, analyse, question and crush. What -do- you call yourself? Anti-abortion? Fertilised-egg-identifiers?

I'm 'faithful' but I don't mention God in most of my posts. In fact , to tell the truth, it is you who keeps on mentioning God and religion in fuckin everything.
He does this because it helps and supports his argument. And the fact is, religion does play a part.

I don't make an exception not even when it's rape.
Let's say I fell pregnant - with my father's baby. This would mean:
>Goodbye super expensive school. Hello dumb shitty school.
>Farewell future. Goodbye university.
>Tata to Australia because I will have no money.
>Farewell friends who will look at me like I'm a broken little girl.
>Goodbye any bit of sanity I have left.
>God knows what this will do to my body. I'm friggin 5ft tall and 15.
>Man am I gonna fuck up my kid so bad. I'm gonna make it wish it was never born.
>Hello life as a prostitute.
>Damn I can't do this. I'm gonna kill myself.

And if only abortion were legal in this country. I would have gone so far in life. I could have been so much. But now I've been sexually, physically and mentally violated and tormented for the rest of my goddamned life. I might as well just die now.

I'm a female and I ran the risk you mentioned.
You're one female.

Every woman deserves the choice. She has the -right- to her own body. How sure are we of the status of the fetus? How sure are we have the indisputable status of a woman? You cannot argue if a woman is a person. You can, however, argue that a fertilised egg is not.

Yeah it's true, because I've had my own experiences. It's just that they are personal and I don't want to share. In fact I have already shared something which I shouldn't have.
This is a debate. If your case helps your argument, put it out. Most people don't care or won't remember. And even if they did - what does it matter?

And it's all pointless but we do it because we have nothing better to do. Or because we have something better to do and we don't feel like doing it (like studying).
Maybe we do it out of sheer frustration and flabbergast.

If it were a fact, we wouldn't be debating it. The way I see it, all human beings are persons, including fetuses, humans with severe mental and physical disabilities, babies, toddlers, women, children, men. It sucks that you don't understand.
Once again. Human, human being, person, these words cannot be used interchangeably as they have vastly different meanings. A fetus is human, but it's personhood is a false ideology if not a subjective and personal matter. Therefor, abortion should be left up to the woman's moral conscience and what -she- feels is best.

The state does force you to pay for your child till he's 18/21 years old, however, by law. So even if you don't want to, you have to.
And if you argue that the woman would be a slave, then I can argue that even the fetus is a slave in this context. Now we can fool ourselves and say 'there's nothing that you have to do' and all this shit, but it's not true. It can never be true even if you believe it.
The mother does not rely on the fetus for her survival. The fetus, however, does. The mother does not need the fetus - the fetus needs the mother.

[Genghis Khan]

How are you completely sure they are guilty? Tons of innocent people are prosecuted for the wrong reasons.

You say you are against abortion because it is killing a life. But if that is your line of logic - does that not mean no one has the right to kill the life of anyone? And should that not include fetuses? What of the life of the mother? What if she is physically incapable of supporting that fetus? Why do the rights of the fetus(which are questionable) out rule that of the woman? The very being it's survival relies on? Why should the woman not have the right to her own body? To take control of her own life?

Which fertilised egg actually even gives a damn about not being born? The non-existent do not regret their non-existence.


A debate is an argument and in arguments - you pick every little thing apart. You find flaws in everything, analyse, question and crush. What -do- you call yourself? Anti-abortion? Fertilised-egg-identifiers?


He does this because it helps and supports his argument. And the fact is, religion does play a part.


Let's say I fell pregnant - with my father's baby. This would mean:
>Goodbye super expensive school. Hello dumb shitty school.
>Farewell future. Goodbye university.
>Tata to Australia because I will have no money.
>Farewell friends who will look at me like I'm a broken little girl.
>Goodbye any bit of sanity I have left.
>God knows what this will do to my body. I'm friggin 5ft tall and 15.
>Man am I gonna fuck up my kid so bad. I'm gonna make it wish it was never born.
>Hello life as a prostitute.
>Damn I can't do this. I'm gonna kill myself.

And if only abortion were legal in this country. I would have gone so far in life. I could have been so much. But now I've been sexually, physically and mentally violated and tormented for the rest of my goddamned life. I might as well just die now.


You're one female.

Every woman deserves the choice. She has the -right- to her own body. How sure are we of the status of the fetus? How sure are we have the indisputable status of a woman? You cannot argue if a woman is a person. You can, however, argue that a fertilised egg is not.


This is a debate. If your case helps your argument, put it out. Most people don't care or won't remember. And even if they did - what does it matter?


Maybe we do it out of sheer frustration and flabbergast.


Once again. Human, human being, person, these words cannot be used interchangeably as they have vastly different meanings. A fetus is human, but it's personhood is a false ideology if not a subjective and personal matter. Therefor, abortion should be left up to the woman's moral conscience and what -she- feels is best.


The mother does not rely on the fetus for her survival. The fetus, however, does. The mother does not need the fetus - the fetus needs the mother.

You are based God, thank you for reiterating what I've said in every abortion thread in a much better manner. I really want to rep you for this.

[Jean Poutine]

Dude, GTFO before I make a smart comment...

Please do, it'll be the first one you'll make.

I don't see why you murrikanz are so obsessed with debating this. There's absolutely nothing to debate. Abortion is like marijuana legalization. The sole argument that holds a basis in concrete life is that legalizing it prevents women from getting mutilated by quacks or pot smokers to avoid having bullshit laced in their weed. The rest is all about beliefs and unverifiable data that nobody gives a shit about. One side draws a line, the other draws another and both camps stay behind and shout nonsense at each other.

The debate should be closed. Abortion is legal and substantiated by legal principles. You're going to tell me now that there are bad laws around and that law isn't the answer to everything and that abortion is one of these bad laws that should be repealed. Law reflects the belief of a nation at a present time. They are indirectly voted into being by the people. Law is society's answer to chaos. Laws become bad when they do not reflect the belief of the majority of a nation anymore, when they become old and outdated. Banning abortion is old and outdated. That's the bad law that was struck down. Not legalization.

[deadpie]

I'm 'faithful' but I don't mention God in most of my posts. In fact , to tell the truth, it is you who keeps on mentioning God and religion in fuckin everything.

I mention God a lot because Religion slows down our progress in common sense when it comes to these issues. Also, anyone that thinks abortion hasn't somehow been linked to religious and moral issues is out of their mind. It shouldn't be surprising that I'd debate over something that's already being lumped together.

And can you please stop acting like I'm only speaking to you?

I don't make an exception not even when it's rape.

You are utterly barbaric. Can you imagine what it's like for a mother to raise a child, the entire time knowing who the father is, being a rapist, then lying to her son or daughter about who the father is? She's going to keep seeing HIM in the child in terms of physical traits and personality. If the kid finds out, he will fucking lose it. You don't take "my father raped my mother and that's how I was born" as a typical happy story.

I'm a female and I ran the risk you mentioned.

Your username is also "confused" and it fits well with you because you seem to always be confused.

Also, can I just ask you how you would raise a child if let's say, you're father was THE FATHER? Do you know what happens in birth due to incest? Do you know the complications? Do you know the psychological effects it would have?

Are you thinking about all the other possibilities ever at all?

I'm editing this post, throwing in personal experience. I dated a girl where the father was the rapist. Want to know the best part? The mother killed herself! Then the father comes back into her life and she deals with getting raped more and more to the point where she's completely suicidal and a complete drug addict. OH GEE ISN'T LIFE JUST SO FUCKING GREAT?

If it were a fact, we wouldn't be debating it. The way I see it, all human beings are persons, including fetuses

Which is why we debate, because people are VERY VERY CLOSED MINDED. A FETUS IS NOT A PERSON LIKE ME AND YOU.

humans with severe mental and physical disabilities, babies, toddlers, women, children, men. It sucks that you don't understand.

I understand quite well, being that I have many physical and mental disabilities and most people I know and talk to also have them. You're talking to a type one diabetic color blind PTSD manic depersonalized person who is possibly at risk for kidney failure in the future.

[SwimRunSleep]

Please do, it'll be the first one you'll make.

I don't see why you murrikanz are so obsessed with debating this. There's absolutely nothing to debate. Abortion is like marijuana legalization. The sole argument that holds a basis in concrete life is that legalizing it prevents women from getting mutilated by quacks or pot smokers to avoid having bullshit laced in their weed. The rest is all about beliefs and unverifiable data that nobody gives a shit about. One side draws a line, the other draws another and both camps stay behind and shout nonsense at each other.

The debate should be closed. Abortion is legal and substantiated by legal principles. You're going to tell me now that there are bad laws around and that law isn't the answer to everything and that abortion is one of these bad laws that should be repealed. Law reflects the belief of a nation at a present time. They are indirectly voted into being by the people. Law is society's answer to chaos. Laws become bad when they do not reflect the belief of the majority of a nation anymore, when they become old and outdated. Banning abortion is old and outdated. That's the bad law that was struck down. Not legalization.

Maybe you should have been aborted...:yawn: gtfo...

[Jess]

There are also pro choicers that are for the death penalty. That isn't very pro choice, isn't? It just goes both ways, man.
Yes, I'm one of those who agrees with the death penalty in some cases, I admit it. Because the person who's gonna be killed is guilty, not innocent.

the person who's gonna be killed might be innocent.

I don't make an exception not even when it's rape.

seriously? So if a little girl was raped and became pregnant, you would want her to have the baby?

[Jean Poutine]

Maybe you should have been aborted...:yawn: gtfo...

Yeah, after years of assisted procreation, my mom would abort about 20000$ worth of time, effort and payment.

assume more

lul

[mac42]

Which is why we debate, because people are VERY VERY CLOSED MINDED. A FETUS IS NOT A PERSON LIKE ME AND YOU.



This will be my last post in this thread, but the part you put in all caps is why pro-life vs. pro-choice will never agree. You think a fetus is not a person, we do. Nothing wrong with differing opinion, but it does not make us close minded.

As I have been called out for already, there is no real foundation to prove that a fetus is not a person, that comes down to personal beliefs and nothing else.

(I'm sure I'll get neg rep for this, but I just wanted to clear that up)

[Korashk]

As I have been called out for already, there is no real foundation to prove that a fetus is not a person, that comes down to personal beliefs and nothing else.
The fact that babies aren't people until a while after they're born pretty much proves that they're not people as fetuses. Pigs have higher cognitive abilities than newborns, are pigs people? Obviously not.

[dead]

The fact that babies aren't people until a while after they're born pretty much proves that they're not people as fetuses. Pigs have higher cognitive abilities than newborns, are pigs people? Obviously not.

I beg to differ.

YeVCb1K_UfI

[pineinchneis]

how can the choices of woman be dictated by narrow minded fundamentalists. only 4 states have abortion legal on request, which is shocking. it makes you realise how backwards the republicans are. it is the womans choice, not choice of state governments

[Djentleman]

Don't sleep around if you can't handle the what if's and maybes. If you have a partner with whom you want an active sex life with and don't want to bare the consequence of spawning life then go through the work of getting yourself protected. There are so many means in pharmaceuticals today to help in the prevention of such happenings and if you mistakenly get yourself in that rut, then that drums up the conclusion that you were either lazy or careless.

An abortion isn't just going to the mall and saying you want a refund, it's bigger than that. Why not stop and think before leading in with your south pole.

[Jess]

^
protection doesn't always work

[Djentleman]

Does that mean taking 2 types and then a third to make sure won't work? If you get pregnant after that then I guess you can do what you choose.

My point is: Abortion shouldn't be treated like a car wash. Going to get it done and then fuck again.

[CrossingtheCourtyard]

Holy fuck. I don't care if he's banned, I'm going to respond.

Other than the fact that a woman should not be prevented from making a personal choice like that, there are many, many other reasons, some of which are, but are not limited to:

1. Pregnancy phobia. My girlfriend has this. Don't say this can be overcome, it can, but can you imagine how possibly endangering this could be to both the mother and the baby, depending on the severity? :/
2. (Possibly) preventing a defect or physical or mental illness that would be not very fun to live with/fatal.
3. Money. Obviously.
4. Other wellbeing of the mother or child. Alcoholic mother, abusive mother, mother at risk for post-partum depression (harmful to both her and the baby, women have killed their children with it) or otherwise mentally ill other than the inheritance factor that would cause increased symptoms with the pregnancy or possible harm to the baby through the mother's symptoms, mother without the resources to support both herself and the child, mother in other threatening situation
5. All these considering contraceptives don't work. For instance, I know of a singer I'm very fond of who used contraception but still got pregnant, she chose not to have the child because she didn't want the child to take on her bipolar disorder. But if you, for instance, were my mum who took the pill and that 0.001% or whatever the statistic was, and still got pregnant, well, regardless of the fact that if she did have an abortion I wouldn't be here, that's most definitely not fair.

And I hate that "don't have sex then" argument. Everyone knows that's not going to happen. Such a pointless concept, resisting human traits and carnal desires for no reason. Only good reasons I can see with resisting that urge is not cheating on your significant other and STDs.

Pretty much, I just want to say, you can be pro-choice and be a good Christian person. The difference between pro-life and pro-choice, like the difference between homophobes and people tolerant of sexualities, is the matter of caring about other people's business and thinking it somehow affects you. Pro-choice can only mean you don't want it to be illegal. You don't have to like abortion, it's just allowing women the choice to do what they want with their bodies. Like gay marriage. You don't have to like it. It's just legalizing that concept.

The issue with outlawing abortion is that it won't be completely ridden from the planet. It'll go down, but if a woman really wants an abortion, she better just have a safe one instead of a make-shift one... just saying. We'll go back to the coat-hanger age. It's like hospitals giving drug addicts sterile needles. At least they're safe if they're going to do it anyway.

I'm (you guessed it) pro-choice. Now, if the embryo was alive... ahh, maybe that'd be different.
Was said singer Emilie Autumn?

Asides from that...
I find abortion a morally grey area. I think there are many, many reasons people may wish to have an abortion and thus, I am pro-choice.

[Syvelocin]

I know I'm not adopted, but does it count that my mum could have easily had an abortion, pregnant with a married man's child, twenty-six, the birth control having failed, and that I'm pro-choice myself? And that the reason why my mum didn't want kids in the first place was that she didn't want them to become as unhappy as she was as a child, yet that actually came true? I could have just as easily been aborted. And I wouldn't care because she should have that choice. She chose to keep me, big fucking deal. I get to die anyway, just a couple decades later than I would have if I was aborted.

Was said singer Emilie Autumn?


Yus yus yus yus yus yus yus yus.

[Vonn]

Don't sleep around if you can't handle the what if's and maybes.

Plenty of happily married women want sex without having kids. Sleeping around gives you less of an excuse to whine about it, yes, but think of the child's future. The offspring of a homeless prostitute? But hey, at least they're alive, because that's all that matters in this world: more babbies.

If you have a partner with whom you want an active sex life with and don't want to bare the consequence of spawning life then go through the work of getting yourself protected.

Are you implying that people don't already do that?

I agree with you. If a couple has unprotected sex and the woman ends up pregnant, well, she had it coming. But there are other factors that come into play when deciding whether or not an abortion should be the next necessary step.

There are so many means in pharmaceuticals today to help in the prevention of such happenings and if you mistakenly get yourself in that rut, then that drums up the conclusion that you were either lazy or careless.

False. It seems that couples who go the lengths to protect themselves like whoa end up with a baby. And really, it can happen to anyone. Most people are competent enough to put on a condom (or whatever method of protection they chose) without screwing up. Shit happens.

An abortion isn't just going to the mall and saying you want a refund, it's bigger than that. Why not stop and think before leading in with your south pole.

Like I said, other factors come into play. Sometimes, it just isn't worth it. Being practical ("Oh, I'm pregnant? Shit. We used multiple forms of protection, and we're not in any state to support a child...") is not the same as being heartless ("Oh, I'm pregnant? Excellent. Let us go to a clinic and have the little shit shredded").

Does that mean taking 2 types and then a third to make sure won't work? If you get pregnant after that then I guess you can do what you choose.

I agree.

My point is: Abortion shouldn't be treated like a car wash. Going to get it done and then fuck again.

People don't enjoy abortions, but they do enjoy sex. So they're going to have it. And, occasionally, if Lady Luck is in a rather mischievous mood, the woman will get pregnant. Even if she doesn't want to.

Really. Think of how the state of the world would be if nobody had an abortion. There are a crapload of humans already running around, and some of them are a waste of flesh.

[antiabort]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.

[kenoloor]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.

Even if it's a shitty one?

[antiabort]

Even if it's a shitty one?

Yea, because EVERY aborted kid was destined to have a shitty life, right?

[kenoloor]

Yea, because EVERY aborted kid was destined to have a shitty life, right?

Because that's what I said.

[Jess]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.


and women should make the choice, as it's THEIR bodies, and people like you should not tell them what to do.

so you think a little girl who became pregnant by rape should have the baby?

[Jupiter]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.



you aren't a girl. so how in the world would you evenn...?

you'll never have to go through child birth, thank the lord, and you and I will never know what that feels like..

[StoppingTime]

and women should make the choice, as it's THEIR bodies, and people like you should not tell them what to do.

so you think a little girl who became pregnant by rape should have the baby?

This. Right. Here. There should be absolutely no exceptions?

[Vonn]

I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.

Nobody "deserves" life. Everybody starts out exactly the same. Either your parents go through with the pregnancy or they don't. Like I said, if absolutely nobody had an abortion, there would be no such thing as personal space.

[antiabort]

and women should make the choice, as it's THEIR bodies, and people like you should not tell them what to do.

so you think a little girl who became pregnant by rape should have the baby?

You are using one of the worst possible scenarios, most abortions are just women who fuck around and then say "I'll just abort it lol" Yes, if something that damn bad happened then that would be an exception.

[StoppingTime]

You are using one of the worst possible scenarios, most abortions are just women who fuck around and then say "I'll just abort it lol" Yes, if something that damn bad happened then that would be an exception.

That happens A LOT more than you'd think, just saying.
And what's your view on the morning-after pill?

[Angel Androgynous]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.

This is a very stupid argument, considering that the zygote does not regret its non-existence. Essentially, all you're doing is giving the woman the right to her own body.

[Korashk]

You are using one of the worst possible scenarios, most abortions are just women who fuck around and then say "I'll just abort it lol" Yes, if something that damn bad happened then that would be an exception.
And we have a troll. There's no need to respond to anything else this poster says on the topic. Even though I know people still will.

[antiabort]

And we have a troll. There's no need to respond to anything else this poster says on the topic. Even though I know people still will.

"HURRRRR I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU THEREFOR YOU ARE A TROLL"

Seriously?

[Angel Androgynous]

"HURRRRR I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU THEREFOR YOU ARE A TROLL"

Seriously?

No, it is because you are using arguments fit for a 12 year old who doesn't know what he's talking about.

[antiabort]

This is a very stupid argument, considering that the zygote does not regret its non-existence. Essentially, all you're doing is giving the woman the right to her own body.

Yes, zygotes and fetuses are not human, they cannot think or feel. but why does the child not deserve at least a chance at life if the woman was not raped or if her life in danger?

[Angel Androgynous]

Yes, zygotes and fetuses are not human, they cannot think or feel. but why does the child not deserve at least a chance at life if the woman was not raped or if her life in danger?

There is a difference between the two.


A child is already born.
A zygote is not.

[kenoloor]

Yes, zygotes and fetuses are not human, they cannot think or feel. but why does the child not deserve at least a chance at life if the woman was not raped or if her life in danger?

Because, in many cases, a woman who does not want her baby will abort. If she is not given that option, she's stuck with a kid that she doesn't want. What's better? Not ever regretting your lack of a "life"? Or not being cared about in life?


There is a difference between the two.


A child is already born.
A zygote is not.

Also, this.

[StoppingTime]

There is a difference between the two.


A child is already born.
A zygote is not.

What is there to possibly argue here? A zygote isn't born, they can't think or feel, you said it yourself! So, wheres your argument?

[Jean Poutine]

Abortion shouldn't be used as contraception, but saying abortion should be banned altogether is too far out.

[antiabort]

Abortion shouldn't be used as contraception, but saying abortion should be banned altogether is too far out.

This.

[StoppingTime]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.


Contradiction much?

[kenoloor]

This.

Over the course of a couple hours you have completely changed your views? Having a consistent argument is usually helpful around here.

[antiabort]

Over the course of a couple hours you have completely changed your views? Having a consistent argument is usually helpful around here.

I said I do not approve of abortions where the woman is fucking around and goes "lol i'll just abort it" read my post.

[StoppingTime]

As you can obviously tell by my name, I am against abortion. I think that everybody deserves a shot at life.


But you still changed from your first post here, mere hours ago!

[backtobackawesome]

ugh i hate aborton my mom wanted to adopt me but tree fish expense and now i pray

[Jess]

I said I do not approve of abortions where the woman is fucking around and goes "lol i'll just abort it" read my post.

so you don't approve of abortions when women are using it as a birth control....but you don't want abortion to be illegal...?

[Jean Poutine]

so you don't approve of abortions when women are using it as a birth control....but you don't want abortion to be illegal...?

Yes he does, and any sane person would think the same.

[AliceFaye]

I find this a hard tonpic as i have had an abortion after a rape age 13 and i often wonder if i did the right thing. I dont think i did.

I am pro-life.

I belive i can honestly think of one situation where an abortion would be acceptable to me. If my child was ill, physically or mentally, and would be bor a vegetable, would never move talk, hear see or speak, if it brain and body would not function, then i would strongly consider it.

Thing is people tell you things like that, and then when the child is born it's born perfect.

Thing is being raped isnt the child's fault.

There are adoption centers, foster homes etc... but why stop a child from living (and stop a family for caring for that child) just because you dont want it?

My child would be 4 years old, she/he'd be starting school and might've grown up to find the cure for cancer, or have been the first female president of America, and i fel responsible for ending a life.

[kenoloor]

.My child would be 4 years old, she/he'd be starting school and might've grown up to find the cure for cancer, or have been the first female president of America, and i fel responsible for ending a life.

You can't prove something that hasn't happened.

If you take away a women's rights to choose, that's essentially taking away a humans right to her own body. And that is a gross violation of human rights.

[AliceFaye]

You can't prove something that hasn't happened.

If you take away a women's rights to choose, that's essentially taking away a humans right to her own body. And that is a gross violation of human rights.


Absolutely, everyone should have the choice and i think to make it illegal would be a violation of our human rights.

However, i wonder if people really put enough thought into it, or do they just make the decision in a moment of panic without thinking of what their feelings may be in years to come, weather they'd regret it or not. It's a very hard decision to make and its not one that should be made in hast or made for you (as it was for me)

[Donkey]

OP request :locked: