Shaving. I'm serious.

[Syvelocin]

Ohohoh. Look at me making a ROTW thread.

This is a debate I've actually had with a couple people I know personally and it's always very interesting, hear me out. Before we start, by no means am I the "women are superior to men" feminist, I vouch for the equality thing as much as a lot of men annoy me. #furtheringthelesbianstereotype I hope that some of you see this already, and some of you will soon see this, but there's two issues I have with shaving: the double-standards and the reasons behind it.

Probably the more agreed upon part of this debate will be the double-standards. You know what I mean. The idea we have in our society, women are bare and men are yetis. Stereotypically of course. It's gay if men shave anything but their face and disgusting if women don't. Not everyone holds this opinion, but enough do that it's... eh. Embarrassing. There are some gorgeous women who are 100% natural and some stick straight (and 'manly,' I guess, if that's important to you) men who shave every inch of their body. This factor does not influence anything one bit.

My mum is one of the fortunate people to have this discussion with me, and she's someone who was simply brought up this way. She says, if she wasn't taught this for half a century, maybe she would be fine with it. This upsets me, as it is more of the media and celebrities and magazines telling you exactly what to do, what's pretty, what's not, it frustrates me.

So, time for a pop culture reference only at the most a couple people here are going to get. There's a musician and singer I don't think I could possibly talk more about if I tried, Amanda Palmer, who is half of The Dresden Dolls. You know what really gets on my nerves? Comments I see on her music videos, any video at all really, criticizing her choice in the matter. She's another person who goes for the 100% natural thing. And look through the comments on videos such as Oasis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C17yfGyJjM), Shores of California (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awnjw36mNEs), Map of Tasmania (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B8omCWBl8s), *insert video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9WZtxRWieM) where she (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i0o3JRaF2g) raises her arms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWC0vuA9Ai4)* and you'll eventually come across someone saying some nasty rubbish about her and her choice to not shave. And actually, the huge notice of it, regardless of whether positive or negative, is really agitating. This woman is known for her blazing self-confidence, her comfort in her own skin. I admire her incredibly for it, and not only because of it, but due greatly to it, her confidence makes her just such a gorgeous person. But luckily, in the comments as well, you'll find dedicated fans who take no notice to that, but only look at who she is as a person. Thankfully.

And now for the reasons behind it. For the Christians: God didn't make you with hair just for the sole purpose of giving you something to shave, lol. It has a purpose. It is also not any sexier or more hygienic to shave. I'd love to get some guys into the discussion who hold the same opinion to make a more convincing argument for the straight girls, because I am confident there are a lot of guys who hold this opinion, but I like my women 100% fucking natural. Unless they just don't feel comfortable, then they should do whatever the fuck they want. I'll apologize for using my girlfriend for this example, but she's the "shave the underarms and legs" type. And that's her thing, she does it for aesthetics. I do as well, only if I'm planning on wearing something other than my usual jeans and a shirt with sleeves however. But I sure as hell don't do it because I'm supposed to. I do that for myself, makes me feel less self-conscious and comfortable in my skin. Only, like I said, when I'm going to be showing people I don't know those areas in the future. But when I'm not, I'm actually more comfortable to really not shave. It's only me, my girlfriend, and my cats, at home, together, when she's not in class and I'm not at work.

Who am I kidding? Who are you kidding? Absolutely no one. Humans are beautiful creatures, whether they're bare or covered in hair, male or female. And the reality of attraction to the natural look may actually surprise you.

Yes, I took a very long turn. I'm a rambler, I'm sure a lot of you know that. It's your turn now.

[Marky]

this sounds more like an open rant, cant you restate your question directly?

[Syvelocin]

It's meant to be a debate, I'm just prone to ranting regardless of what it is. :P Basically, the two points I presented, double-standards and intent. This is an issue of 1. tradition of gender stereotypes and 2. the false ideas behind attraction and what is beautiful. While that last one may be largely opinion, I fear it's been misconstrued to be a much more intricate and complex issue, a recipe of sorts, that has to be followed to a tee, when it's much more simple than that.

Anyway, does that make it any more clear? I apologize that it wasn't so to you in the first place.

[mikeywrenn]

The idea always used to be that the 'warrior man' would go off and fight, hunt and do all the things deemed manly. The woman's only job would be to look after the land, the children and her appearance. I know it's kind of a harsh concept, but that's how it used to be.

A female would shave herself in order to appear sexually attractive and pure. Again, not something I really agree with, but it's really hard to change an age-old stereotype.

The reason a man shaving anything below his neck may seem gay is because a woman shaves her body to appear attractive to men. Therefore the man would be deemed shaving his body to appear attractive to men.

On top of this, a woman may seem lesbian is because a man doesn't shave his body, so he looks masculine. Therefore a woman not shaving is deemed as her attempting to make herself more attractive to women.


That's my ramble, hope you liked my colour. :P

[AllThatYouDreamed]

is because a woman shaves her body to appear attractive to men. Therefore the man would be deemed shaving his body to appear attractive to men.

The real question *here* is WHY.

Honestly I think in some ways it must have started from trying to play a little more off curves of a female body shape and going "well if women are a smooth curve like that, they must not have hair that breaks it" or something stupid like that.

I generally don't bother, mostly because I have so little body hair to begin with and most of it is *really* light.

[mikeywrenn]

Because running your hand over wet glass is a lot more satisfying than running your hand over glass, then sandpaper, then glass. If you get my drift.

[AllThatYouDreamed]

Because running your hand over wet glass is a lot more satisfying than running your hand over glass, then sandpaper, then glass. If you get my drift.

Then why don't men shave everything too?

[wowisawesome]

It's meant to be a debate, I'm just prone to ranting regardless of what it is. :P Basically, the two points I presented, double-standards and intent. This is an issue of 1. tradition of gender stereotypes and 2. the false ideas behind attraction and what is beautiful. While that last one may be largely opinion, I fear it's been misconstrued to be a much more intricate and complex issue, a recipe of sorts, that has to be followed to a tee, when it's much more simple than that.

Anyway, does that make it any more clear? I apologize that it wasn't so to you in the first place.

What is so bad about shaving? I do it every morning to my face. (my facial hair grows EXTREMELY fast and i like being clean shaven) That is just the way society works. It is not sexist nor does it make us unequal.

[Syvelocin]

Only thing I find conflicting in your post is that gay men want to be attractive to gay men, not straight men, and gay women want to be attractive to gay women.

Because running your hand over wet glass is a lot more satisfying than running your hand over glass, then sandpaper, then glass. If you get my drift.

Mmm, what she said exactly. As well, when you don't shave, it's not exactly sandpaper. If you continuously shave and then stop, then it probably feels like sandpaper. :P

Banned guy didn't even read all the post I'll bet.

[Efflorescence]

Ok, this has really captured my interest. I am not going to mince my words...I have a hair problem. When I was young, I used to be bullied a lot because of this. At that time my mother thought that I was too young to start waxing, and shaving is just not effective for me.

It hurts a lot, physically (I hate waxing) and even emotionally because I feel inferior to the typical 'beautiful, hairless woman'. I myself don't like the fact that I have this problem, but society doesn't help either. I spent many years obsessing about hair and I used to tell my mother as a joke that I prove that we humans have evoloved from apes lol.
I was also sometimes called 'a man' because of my hair.

I wrote this rant to show that yes, society is obsessed with stereotypes and we've got a long way to go before society changes these stereotypes forever.

And personally, I have doubts whether it's an age-old stereotype. Because I suspect that as time passed, society has grown more 'anti-hairy women' as the methods of removing hair have improved and everyone expects women to use them.

[huginnmuninn]

Personaly i shave only my face but thats mainly because im usually weariing jeans and at least a short sleeve shirt. I enjoy the feeling of my face being cleanly shaven. one of the main things that will turn me off of a woman is if she isnt comfortable being herself. if she tries too hard to change her looks or personality to make her more socially acceptable then it turns me off even though that might just be who she is it kinda disturbs me and makes me feel more pity for her than actual attraction.

also MOST (please read the words in caps before you start a rant i do realize there are many exceptions to this rule but that why i use the word MOST and not all) women, at least the ones i know, have naturally less body hair than men do so men are associated with body hair and women are not. yea that might not be fair but thats how it is. i dont have any problems with women who have more hair than others as long as they are clean.