Pro-Life Libertarians

[ShyGuyInChicago]

What is your opinion of people who are against abortion on libertarian grounds, specifically those who say that abortion violates the rights of the unborn child?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_abortion#Pro-life_positions

[Vonn]

The woman's rights should trump the unborn child's, seeing as the woman is alive while the fetus is not (yet). Especially in cases of rape, the imminent death of the mother, etc. People are all over the thing because no matter the stage of pregnancy, it's seen as a full-grown baby (when it isn't, and if someone is considering an abortion, usually the baby is still just a shapeless cluster of cells) and who kills babies, really, think of the children you monster. Once it's out in the world, though, nobody cares anymore. Now it's the mother's responsibility, if the baby didn't kill her. Except this time, if she kills it, she'll go to jail. Whee.

[Korashk]

I understand why they justify it like that, but do not think that the act of sex gives tacit consent to birth and raise a child.

[Amaryllis]

I'm a nerd.

EDIT: Okay, just so y'all can't diss on me. I doubt anyone'll read this bit cause it's so sciency.

Nerd mode activated.

A zygote is a single celled human being. It is human from the moment of fertilisation. It remains a human being throughout the process of becoming a blastocyst, embryo to a fetes. However, a distinct head and body can only be seen when it's a fetes(about 8 weeks if I remember correctly).

A child's heart begins to beat after about 15...? 20? Somewhere in between. Babies feel pain after 9 weeks. 4 weeks later and they can see and hear. It takes about 3 weeks for the baby to develop a brain and a spinal cord and goddammit I forgot for it to start sucking it's thumb.

Now if I remove the nerd part of me and speak from an emotional point of view.

Nerd mode deactivated.

I think it's bullpoopy.

You don't have a life until you're out of your mother's uterus and you're actually living on your own, not breathing through your mother's umbilical cord. And you're actually learning and experiencing things. Life shapes a person. Before you live, you're not really alive.

That made no goddamn sense.

But it's better for the child. Why give birth to one who'll just have a screwed up, crappy life? They didn't ask to be born. You'll save them the heartache. And what about the mother? The father can just walk away. The mother has to deal with this baby growing inside her and the baby she will have to raise or abandon. It's a great psychological burden(though, as is abortion) but at least she'll have a chance at a life. Especially if she's still in school. Having a child would mean the end of her youth. If she chooses to keep it. And if she gave it away, what if the kid just wishes he/she was never born?

Free will. The mother should have the choice. If there's a distinct head and body and the brain has developed, maybe not. But then... God, the poor girl. What if it was her father's child? Her rapist?

Anyway, would you freak out if you wasted a sperm or ovary? Gosh, but I'm such a nerd. The nerdy part of me is saying "No! They're human beings!" but hell, they'd be better off not born.

My logic and emotions disagree with me.

[Korashk]

How do your logic and emotions disagree with you?

[Amaryllis]

My logic says it's a human from the minute of fertilisation. My emotions say poor mother and women should have the right to abort.

[huginnmuninn]

well do you care about human life? I know that personally i dont really care

[embers]

well do you care about human life? I know that personally i dont really care

I'd consider it a better deed given our current situation not to let a foetus develop into a baby human. So yes, I do care.

[Amaryllis]

I'd consider it a better deed given our current situation not to let a foetus develop into a baby human. So yes, I do care.
It's a human from the minute of fertilisation. But yeah. I more or less agree with you.

[Korashk]

My logic says it's a human from the minute of fertilisation. My emotions say poor mother and women should have the right to abort.
Those are not conflicting statements.

[Jupiter]

Let's not get political ;)

[Amaryllis]

Okay. I phrased it bad. I meant to say my logic is avaunt abortion while emotions aren't.


Let's not get political ;)

This is ramblings of the wise. We're meant to get political. ;P

[Efflorescence]

My logic and emotions are both anti-abortion now and until the end of time. I have already made that clear.........so I guess i have nothing more to add.

[embers]

It's a human from the minute of fertilisation.

Why?

[Sage]

My logic and emotions are both anti-abortion now and until the end of time. I have already made that clear.........so I guess i have nothing more to add.

If you have no interest in changing your mind, maybe you should stay out of debates.

[Genghis Khan]

My logic and emotions are both anti-abortion

Any particular reason why?

[Amaryllis]

Why?

Because a zygote. The first stage of a "baby" is created when an ovary and sperm merge. It contains thousands of genes from both parents. Quote:


A human zygote exists for about four days, and becomes a blastocyst on the fifth day.


Human.

A zygote is alive. From the moment your sperm reaches the ovary. It's a living organism that converts nutrients and oxygen into energy. It grows. It moves. 23 chromosomes from the egg and sperm make up a zygote. We are made up of chromosomes. It's DNA is that of a human. If you kill a baby, it won't grow. If you kill a zygote, it won't grow. it takes only a few weeks for it to develop a heartbeat.

But no. It's not a person. It's a potential person. But it's human.

Still, I'm a stubborn nut and no amount of science will make me... Well I don't know. But it's better to kill a life that may not have a chance than ruin a girl ho has a life ahead of her. Who will have that burden on her shoulders. Who will suffer the humiliation, the persecution and weight of a child.

Zygotes are human but they're not people.

[embers]

But no. It's not a person. It's a potential person. But it's human.

Still, I'm a stubborn nut and no amount of science will make me... Well I don't know. But it's better to kill a life that may not have a chance than ruin a girl ho has a life ahead of her. Who will have that burden on her shoulders. Who will suffer the humiliation, the persecution and weight of a child.

I guess I agree with you there - and yeah, I don't consider it 'murder' either, since the unlawful killing of a person constitutes murder.

[Efflorescence]

If you have no interest in changing your mind, maybe you should stay out of debates.

Why do you always have to attack my posts?

I have already taken part in another debate about abortion....it was long and I was just expressing my opinion and that's it. And anyway, how many people truly have an interest in changing their minds?

Not many, so leave me alone for heaven's sake! HALLINI KWIETA!

And anyway, I know how it will end up...me against the whole world...me having to answer to about 10 people all in one go...NO thanks. It's always like that......and I'm bloody tired of always being the outcast........

Some people have no idea what that feels like.....

[embers]

Why do you always have to attack my posts?

I have already taken part in another debate about abortion....it was long and I was just expressing my opinion and that's it. And anyway, how many people truly have an interest in changing their minds?

Not many, so leave me alone for heaven's sake! HALLINI KWIETA!

And anyway, I know how it will end up...me against the whole world...me having to answer to about 10 people all in one go...NO thanks. It's always like that......and I'm bloody tired of always being the outcast........

Some people have no idea what that feels like.....

Maybe it's you against 10 people for a good reason.

[Genghis Khan]

I have already taken part in another debate about abortion....it was long and I was just expressing my opinion and that's it.

I don't think you know what a debate is.

And anyway, how many people truly have an interest in changing their minds?

Quite a number. A lot of them reside here in rotw. You should try that, it's healthy.

Not many, so leave me alone for heaven's sake! HALLINI KWIETA!

Why do you get so shit flippy when people [on debate grounds] ask you to justify your opinion?

And anyway, I know how it will end up...me against the whole world...me having to answer to about 10 people all in one go...NO thanks. It's always like that......and I'm bloody tired of always being the outcast........

Some people have no idea what that feels like.....

N'aw. I'd like to pat you Confusion, may I pat your head in a consolidating attempt to revive your spirit.

[Efflorescence]

I don't think you know what a debate is.



Quite a number. A lot of them reside here in rotw. You should try that, it's healthy.



Why do you get so shit flippy when people [on debate grounds] ask you to justify your opinion?



N'aw. I'd like to pat you Confusion, may I pat your head in a consolidating attempt to revive your spirit.


I have already taken part in a debate like this one! A thread called 'Abortion'! It was exactly like this one.........why do I have to keep on repeating the same things over and over?

And keep your pats to yourself.....I was a survivor from the womb that's all I'm gonna say. SURVIVOR FROM THE WOMB! Just as I have already said in the other thread, my mother was going to abort me and decided against it so excuse me for being glad I was born!

[Efflorescence]

Maybe it's you against 10 people for a good reason.

Being in the majority doesn't automatically make your ideas right. Didn't you know that?

[Genghis Khan]

I have already taken part in a debate like this one! A thread called 'Abortion'! It was exactly like this one.........why do I have to keep on repeating the same things over and over?

And keep your pats to yourself.....I was a survivor from the womb that's all I'm gonna say.

I mean your understanding is a debate is where you express your opinion and people shouldn't criticize it or try to change anyone else's mind. Which is quite obviously wrong. If you can't accept another person's point, when they are quite clearly right, you're better off not posting in rotw.

[embers]

Being in the majority doesn't automatically make your ideas right. Didn't you know that?

It doesn't necessarily, but sometimes it may just tell you something.

[Efflorescence]

It doesn't necessarily, but sometimes it may just tell you something.

It doesn't tell me anything. I'm me and I will always be. I always like learning new things and I may even change my mind if I have valid reason to do it.But I still haven't found a valid reason to change my mind on this one...sorry.

I mean your understanding is a debate is where you express your opinion and people shouldn't criticize it or try to change anyone else's mind. Which is quite obviously wrong. If you can't accept another person's point, when they are quite clearly right, you're better off not posting in rotw.

Perhaps I do not think that they are 'clearly right'.

[Angel Androgynous]

It doesn't tell me anything. I'm me and I will always be. I always like learning new things and I may even change my mind if I have valid reason to do it.But I still haven't found a valid reason to change my mind on this one...sorry.

Did the rights of a woman ever occur to you?

[embers]

It doesn't tell me anything. I'm me and I will always be. I always like learning new things and I may even change my mind if I have valid reason to do it.But I still haven't found a valid reason to change my mind on this one...sorry.

You give off the impression of being close-minded, so forgive me if I didn't know you were as willing to learn and open minded as you say you are.

[Efflorescence]

Did the rights of a woman ever occur to you?

Haven't we already talked about this goddam it?

'I know nothing of man's rights, or woman's rights, human rights are all that I recognise.'

[Angel Androgynous]

Haven't we already talked about this goddam it?

'I know nothing of man's rights, or woman's rights, human rights are all that I recognise.'

Mm well women have human rights too. They shouldn't have to give birth to something they don't want. How about you volunteer to have unwanted fetuses implanted into you? Y'know... since you care so much and all.

[embers]

Haven't we already talked about this goddam it?

'I know nothing of man's rights, or woman's rights, human rights are all that I recognise.'

Fine then - why do the 'rights' of an undeveloped zygote precede those of a fully-grown, conscious adult woman?

[Efflorescence]

Mm well women have human rights too. They shouldn't have to give birth to something they don't want. How about you volunteer to have unwanted fetuses implanted into you? Y'know... since you care so much and all.

Oh God, here we go again. You've already told me this and I've already replied by saying that it's bullocks, because I'm also against poverty but that doesn't mean that I have to take all the poor people inside my house. I'm against abortion so that doesn't necessarily mean that I want all the fetuses implanted in me. What the hell?

Fine then - why do the 'rights' of an undeveloped zygote precede those of a fully-grown, conscious adult woman?

What rights? The 'right' to voluntarily kill a human being....is that a right to you?

[Angel Androgynous]

Well her getting pregnant wasn't exactly voluntarily either. Also, her body, her choice. She doesn't have to endure nine months of this.

[embers]

What rights? The 'right' to voluntarily kill a human being....is that a right to you?

It isn't murder. Killing people is considered murder/homicide. Zygotes - clumps of underdeveloped cells - may be potentially human, but they are not 'people'. Take the idea of two very similar human species existing at the same time - let's say Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens sapiens. Killing a member of the Homo sapiens sapiens would be considered murder because the animal carries the traits of being a person. (Person and human being two different things.) Killing a Neanderthal, on the other hand, is not murder, and while I don't see it as 'right' myself (I don't support hunting), I don't believe people should receive the murder sentence for it.

Fertilised egg cells, zygotes and embryos and so on are not people. Of course, the term 'person' is difficult to define, so I accept the definition that states a 'person' must be conscious, self aware, have notion of past and future, and some other things. I doubt that is present within an embryo.

But for the sake of practicality I support the limit on the age you can abort up until, which I think is the second term (correct me if I'm wrong) as it is near the time a foetus can feel pain and some other things that blur the line of being a 'person'.

[Korashk]

What rights? The 'right' to voluntarily kill a human being....is that a right to you?
Yeah, provided that human is using your body against your will to the detriment of your health.

[Amaryllis]

What rights? The 'right' to voluntarily kill a human being....is that a right to you?
Firstly, what embers said. Yay logic.

Secondly, what about her life? Do you know what having that baby will mean for her? Do you know what it's like to have your own father's child? Do you know what it's like to be raped and have his child? Do you know what it will be like for her, never being able to live a normal life from then on? Do you know what it's like to walk around school pregnant, to be disowned by her parents and persecuted bher friends? Do you know what it's like to lose your freedom? What if a woman was a photojournalist and she travelled the world? That would be the end of her career. Do you know what shame she would have to go through? Do you know how goddamn painful giving birth and having a human inside you is? Do you know what that would do to her mentally? Even if she gave the baby away, do you know what the child would have to go through? What if s/he never gets adopted? Better end a potential person than let them suffer through life. Nobody asked to be born. You're not born, you don't suffer.

Unless you've given birth to a baby and you're raising it right now. Then you do know and I commend you on your motherhood.

[Sage]

It isn't murder. Killing people is considered murder/homicide.

Yeah, provided that human is using your body against your will to the detriment of your health.

Regardless of whether or not abortion can be considered murder or killing, I'll have to side with Korashk here and say the mother's well-being takes precedence. I don't think having sex means you consent to giving birth, and one should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want to carry on their pregnancy.

[Efflorescence]

It isn't murder. Killing people is considered murder/homicide. Zygotes - clumps of underdeveloped cells - may be potentially human, but they are not 'people'. Take the idea of two very similar human species existing at the same time - let's say Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens sapiens. Killing a member of the Homo sapiens sapiens would be considered murder because the animal carries the traits of being a person. (Person and human being two different things.) Killing a Neanderthal, on the other hand, is not murder, and while I don't see it as 'right' myself (I don't support hunting), I don't believe people should receive the murder sentence for it.

Fertilised egg cells, zygotes and embryos and so on are not people. Of course, the term 'person' is difficult to define, so I accept the definition that states a 'person' must be conscious, self aware, have notion of past and future, and some other things. I doubt that is present within an embryo.

But for the sake of practicality I support the limit on the age you can abort up until, which I think is the second term (correct me if I'm wrong) as it is near the time a foetus can feel pain and some other things that blur the line of being a 'person'.


Here we are not talking about two different species. We are talking about the same species. I don't know whether killing Homo neanderthalensis or Homo erectus is considered murder since I've never had the opportunity to co-exist with them. And have you ever heard of HUMAN rights?....HUMAN rights.......and one of the most basic HUMAN rights is the right to live. An embryo is not a potential human......an embryo IS a human being...when the egg is fertilised, a new human being forms.....the offspring of two human beings who cannot be anything but human.

My definition of 'person' is different by the way. I do not believe that first you are a human and then, at some stage, personhood is added to you.

Firstly, what embers said. Yay logic.

Secondly, what about her life? Do you know what having that baby will mean for her? Do you know what it's like to have your own father's child? Do you know what it's like to be raped and have his child? Do you know what it will be like for her, never being able to live a normal life from then on? Do you know what it's like to walk around school pregnant, to be disowned by her parents and persecuted bher friends? Do you know what it's like to lose your freedom? What if a woman was a photojournalist and she travelled the world? That would be the end of her career. Do you know what shame she would have to go through? Do you know how goddamn painful giving birth and having a human inside you is? Do you know what that would do to her mentally? Even if she gave the baby away, do you know what the child would have to go through? What if s/he never gets adopted? Better end a potential person than let them suffer through life. Nobody asked to be born. You're not born, you don't suffer.

Unless you've given birth to a baby and you're raising it right now. Then you do know and I commend you on your motherhood.


Well, do you know how painful abortion can be? Do you know that a mother can die in the process? Do you know the fact that in many cases, abortion is followed by physical and emotional pain that lasts for much more than 9 months? Do you know that the unborn can feel pain as well?

And anyway, this is ridiculous. So what now? Tell you what we'll do. We 'll kill every zygote on the whole planet so that from now on, no one suffers. YAY! I think that my mother should have aborted me then because I've suffered so much already.....I've been raped, I've been bullied. But you know what?
Suffering has shaped me....it has helped me grow, it is suffering who has made me who I am and every life is defined by suffering.

Yeah, provided that human is using your body against your will to the detriment of your health.


Abortion can also be detrimental to a woman's health and it can also bloody kill her too. So she is going to suffer all the same. And anyway, what you said is part of life. Everyone causes this 'detriment of the mother's health' during those nine months.


Regardless of whether or not abortion can be considered murder or killing, I'll have to side with Korashk here and say the mother's well-being takes precedence. I don't think having sex means you consent to giving birth, and one should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want to carry on their pregnancy.

I disagree. I think that no one has the right to kill a human being especially an innocent human being, whose only fault in the world is being bloody created, if one could call that 'his fault'.

[embers]

Here we are not talking about two different species. We are talking about the same species. I don't know whether killing Homo neanderthalensis or Homo erectus is considered murder since I've never had the opportunity to co-exist with them. And have you ever heard of HUMAN rights?....HUMAN rights.......and one of the most basic HUMAN rights is the right to live. An embryo is not a potential human......an embryo IS a human being...when the egg is fertilised, a new human being forms.....the offspring of two human beings who cannot be anything but human.

Sigh.

human rights
plural of hu·man right
Noun: A right that is believed to belong justifiably to every person.

Embryos do not carry the traits of personhood.

My definition of 'person' is different by the way. I do not believe that first you are a human and then, at some stage, personhood is added to you.

Opinions > opinions

Well, do you know how painful abortion can be? Do you know that a mother can die in the process? Do you know the fact that in many cases, abortion is followed by physical and emotional pain that lasts for much more than 9 months? Do you know that the unborn can feel pain as well?

For the mother, the risks are minimal compared to the potential risks of giving birth. Have you ever heard of the limit to when a woman can abort? You know, the one that doesn't allow you to abort after a certain date, so that the foetus doesn't feel pain?

And anyway, this is ridiculous. So what now? Tell you what we'll do. We 'll kill every zygote on the whole planet so that from now on, no one suffers.

Are you fucking retarded? I'm pretty sure the people here aren't saying every possible zygote in the world should be aborted. As far as I know the people debating here are debating in favour of a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy, not a mandatory law to kill every foetus that exists.

[Amaryllis]

Well, do you know how painful abortion can be? Do you know that a mother can die in the process? Do you know the fact that in many cases, abortion is followed by physical and emotional pain that lasts for much more than 9 months? Do you know that the unborn can feel pain as well?

And anyway, this is ridiculous. So what now? Tell you what we'll do. We 'll kill every zygote on the whole planet so that from now on, no one suffers. YAY! I think that my mother should have aborted me then because I've suffered so much already.....I've been raped, I've been bullied. But you know what?
Suffering has shaped me....it has helped me grow, it is suffering who has made me who I am and every life is defined by suffering.

My mum had an abortion. And yes, I do understand. I was molested by my father. I'm really sorry about that. It's always terrible when something bad happens. But we need to give the girl a chance. She didn't ask for it. She deserves a chance at a life. It would cause her pain but if she believes it is better than having to drop school, work and be a mum, I think she has the right.

Anyway, zygotes aren't people. Nor are foetuses.

[Efflorescence]

Embryos do not carry the traits of personhood..

If for you, in order to be a human you have to have self-consciousness, then you are saying that humans who are profoundly mentally disabled are not persons then.


For the mother, the risks are minimal compared to the potential risks of giving birth. Have you ever heard of the limit to when a woman can abort? You know, the one that doesn't allow you to abort after a certain date, so that the foetus doesn't feel pain?.

Minimal? So why there are still mothers who die during abortion or who can never have another child after it? Do you call that a minimal risk?

And by the way, I have another fuckin dictionary definition for you:

Human rights:

The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law.

So which definition is correct, huh?

Are you fucking retarded? I'm pretty sure the people here aren't saying every possible zygote in the world should be aborted. As far as I know the people debating here are debating in favour of a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy, not a mandatory law to kill every foetus that exists.


FaithandTrust said that it's better to kill him/her then let him/her live to suffer. That is the argument I was addressing. What I meant to say was that that is not a good reason to kill a zygote as everyone suffers, so by her reasoning, we can kill everyone on the whole planet, you fuckin idiot. Happy now? I stooped to a low level like you did. If you want to turn this into bashfest, we will and then mods have to get involved and one or both of us will get banned. Think twice before getting personal.

[embers]

If for you, in order to be a human you have to have self-consciousness, then you are saying that humans who are profoundly mentally disabled are not persons then.

They're still self-conscious.

Minimal? So why there are still mothers who die during abortion or who can never have another child after it? Do you call that a minimal risk?

I mean a small risk of them dying.

And by the way, I have another fuckin dictionary definition for you:

Human rights:

The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law.

So which definition is correct, huh?

Opinions > opinions. I drew my definition from a dictionary that cited its source from here (http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/human-rights-basics). If the people who write dictionaries don't wish to involve themselves in person vs. human debates then by all means let them give the definition of human rights at face value.

FaithandTrust said that it's better to kill him/her then let him/her live to suffer. That is the argument I was addressing. What I meant to say was that that is not a good reason to kill a zygote as everyone suffers, so by her reasoning, we can kill everyone on the whole planet, you fuckin idiot. Happy now? I stooped to a low level like you did. If you want to turn this into bashfest, we will and then mods have to get involved and one or both of us will get banned. Think twice before getting personal.

If everyone took as much offense to what I said as you did then the whole world would be babies requiring spoonfeeding.

On a more relevant note, what Z wrote that you responded to didn't imply that everyone can be killed because they pose problems. Maybe you interpreted it wrong.

[Efflorescence]

They're still self-conscious.


No, they're not...they're not aware of their actions or thoughts. I'm talking about the severely mentally disabled here.

I mean a small risk of them dying.

The mortality rate for women from abortion is 101 (abortion)/27 (birth) = 3.7 times higher for abortion than for giving birth.


Opinions > opinions. I drew my definition from a dictionary that cited its source from here (http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/human-rights-basics). If the people who write dictionaries don't wish to involve themselves in person vs. human debates then by all means let them give the definition of human rights at face value.

Oh my god.....amnesty..well whatever ok...my definition comes from a proper dictionary however:

here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/human+right)

If everyone took as much offense to what I said as you did then the whole world would be babies requiring spoonfeeding.

On a more relevant note, what Z wrote that you responded to didn't imply that everyone can be killed because they pose problems. Maybe you interpreted it wrong.

What Z wrote implies that it's better to kill zygote then let him grow to suffer. I know what I read and maybe YOU interpreted wrong.

[embers]

No, they're not...they're not aware of their actions or thoughts. I'm talking about the severely mentally disabled here.

Are you sure? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness)

In any case, self-awareness isn't the defining factor of personhood, as I've said.

The mortality rate for women from abortion is 101 (abortion)/27 (birth) = 3.7 times higher for abortion than for giving birth.

Source?

Oh my god.....amnesty..well whatever ok...my definition comes from a proper dictionary however:

here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/human+right)

I've never heard of 'thefreedictionary'. I found mine from Oxford, which I suppose gives it a hell of a lot of credibility. But anyway, I don't want to debate the validity of dictionaries with you.

What Z wrote implies that it's better to kill zygote then let him grow to suffer. I know what I read and maybe YOU interpreted wrong.

She meant only in the relevant cases in which the offspring is sure to suffer. Teenage pregnancy is a fantastic example in which it not only poses a significantly high threat to the mother but the child is also sure to suffer.

[Amaryllis]

If for you, in order to be a human you have to have self-consciousness, then you are saying that humans who are profoundly mentally disabled are not persons then.

FaithandTrust said that it's better to kill him/her then let him/her live to suffer. That is the argument I was addressing. What I meant to say was that that is not a good reason to kill a zygote as everyone suffers, so by her reasoning, we can kill everyone on the whole planet, you fuckin idiot. Happy now? I stooped to a low level like you did. If you want to turn this into bashfest, we will and then mods have to get involved and one or both of us will get banned. Think twice before getting personal.

They're not mentally disabled. They're mentally disadvantaged. Mentally disabled means they're brain-dead. Would it be wrong to take away someone who is brain-dead's life support?

And he wasn't getting personal. This is a debate. It's his opinion. He has proof. And you misinterpreted what I said. Kids from teen pregnancies, those that are given away to bad families, sometimes it's better for them to go early.


What Z wrote implies that it's better to kill zygote then let him grow to suffer. I know what I read and maybe YOU interpreted wrong.
I asked you how you would feel in the position of the mother. All I'm trying to do is to let you see something from the other's point of view. Instead of just seeing what you want to see.

You saw my previous posts. I thought of the baby. But the mother has her life to protect as well.

[Efflorescence]

Are you sure? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness)

In any case, self-awareness isn't the defining factor of personhood, as I've said.

Just as I've already said, I think that the rights stem from the fact that they are humans. Another thing, I think that now I have self-consciousness which was already there from the moment I was conceived. Nothing comes out of nothing. Whatever capacities I have now developed from what I was in the beginning = I was a person from the beginning.


[Source?.


Oh yes, the source. VERY interesting source...very very interesting.
very interesting source (http://www.prochoice.com/abortion_safe02.html)

I've never heard of 'thefreedictionary'. I found mine from Oxford, which I suppose gives it a hell of a lot of credibility. But anyway, I don't want to debate the validity of dictionaries with you.

Well I hope that you're not implying that just because you've never heard of it, it's not valid but anyway......... And here we cannot agree since I think that my dictionary is correct.....human rights = rights of humans. Duh?


She meant only in the relevant cases in which the offspring is sure to suffer. Teenage pregnancy is a fantastic example in which it not only poses a significantly high threat to the mother but the child is also sure to suffer.

But who the hell are you to know the future? How can you decide?....no man. 'Sure to suffer'.....there are babies who were born to 'stable' couples who suffered, I was born to a couple and I suffered...what kind of logic is this? Children suffer from divorce all day, so what now? What do we do about it?


Kids from teen pregnancies, those that are given away to bad families, sometimes it's better for them to go early.

Look, I know that you're trying to kind of reach a compromise here but it's just that yes, there's always the risk they go to bad families but they can also go to good families. If you kill them, that's it......they can go neither to good nor to bad families because they're DEAD.

[Suicune]

But who the hell are you to know the future? How can you decide?....no man. 'Sure to suffer'.....there are babies who were born to 'stable' couples who suffered, I was born to a couple and I suffered...what kind of logic is this? Children suffer from divorce all day, so what now? What do we do about it?


It doesn't matter if the child is born in the case of a teenage pregnancy to a Stable couple.

A child born from the result of a teen pregnancy is more likely to be born prematurely, underweight, with birth defects, and with an STD. Not to mention that the strain that an adolescent mother is just too much. The strain on her developing body, the emotional toll taken on her by her peers and her family, and most of the time the mother is just not ready to have a child.

It's not worth a teenage mother to go through 9 months of pain only to give birth to a child that has almost no chance of making it.

Source (http://www.essortment.com/health-risks-teen-pregnancy-62758.html)
Source (http://www.webmd.com/baby/teen-pregnancy-medical-risks-and-realities?page=2)

[Korashk]

Oh yes, the source. VERY interesting source...very very interesting.
very interesting source (http://www.prochoice.com/abortion_safe02.html)
Not really, it's a glaringly biased site using data from the early 90s.

[Bougainvillea]

Haven't we already talked about this goddam it?

Quit fucking posting then. Every thread you "debate" in, you don't want to clarify, or you take things personally. If you can't handle responses, or accept them, just hide ROTW.

We don't want you to be traumatized.