It's a fucking debate now!

[deadpie]

Ok, because moderators really get sort of angry and pissed off when your opinions have points against others, that means you have to take it to another thread so you don't get an infraction. SO, apparently I'm going to just make a big fat fucking 9/11 debate which is what they want. Apparently we can't just have one big shit thread to pile it all in.

--------------------------

Copying what Faris and I said to give people shit to debate with.


If we're going to keep having tributes to 9/11 I think we should also have big tributes for things like the Nanking Massacre, Japanese American Camps (Gila River, Rohwer, Topaz, Jerome, etc...), all of the people killed in Pearl Harbor, the indian removal process in Indiana, the FUCKING BOMBS dropped on Japan, Babi Yar Massacre, you know, horrible things that happen people like to pretend aren't that big of a deal or things they don't want to pay attention to.

Like it bothers me how much we pay attention to how bad the Holocaust was, but yet at the same time don't give a living shit about Nanking. Seriously, that might be one of the worst things that EVER happened in this world and you won't hear more than a paragraph about it in your history books typically.

Sure, I feel bad for the people that died, but 9/11 has become more of a product and excuse for America and conservatives more than anything. It's given us more reasons to kill people in war and more reasons to watch the TV and be scared of everything.

Now it's like any law that's taken away from our rights, it's SOMEHOW connected to 9/11 and us trying to be "safer" or bullshit like that.

And yes, I hope every other person who has been killed in terrorist attacks and genocides are remembered too.

Nevermind! Just fucking kidding. I only care about 9/11 because it happened recently and I was alive during the time it happened, so it affected me personally somehow.

It's pathetic. Pick who you care about and mourn only for a certain time to pretend you actually care, yet you really don't. You don't give a living shit about any other people that died. If you were there in NY while the towers fell, you would run and you wouldn't help. I bet that. You'd run for your life scared in fear. You can mourn all you want and forget every other horrible thing that ever happened in this world. Just shove it under the fucking carpet like it never happened. BUT 9/11! IT'S DIFFERENT! BECAUSE.... UHH.... IT JUST IS!!!!!

So many horrible things happen on a daily basis. Did you know over 20,000 children die of AIDS [source (http://cozay.com/)] on a daily basis? That's just children. You really want to guess how big it is overall? And I bet you won't weep and have a day of mourning for them. That's just the start of it. You know how horrible things are around this world, the sickening garbage that keeps going on. Yes, it happened. There's so much worse things that happen on a DAILY BASIS. This is literally nothing compared to what some places are facing with diseases or having these batshit crazy people in foreign countries turning children into soldiers that behead and rape women. You don't mourn them.

I honestly don't sympathize for those who died in 9/11. I sympathize for those who were tricked that they would have 72 virgins and 24 boy virgins in heaven after bomb blasting themselves into the building. I never felt the death of those who died there. I will not pretend that I care. I am not doing this because of what I am. It just me not giving a flying fuck on who dies out there. Such is the story of life.

Of course, after living in furnished apartments and nice wooden houses, you all were thin downed. You all think 9/11 is a real tragedy. Come and live under tin corrugated roofs, then you all soon realize that every passing moment is a fucking tragedy. You will soon realize the 2nd amendment's gun slinger crime doer maniac running around your neighbor is nothing compared to living under pressure of corporate and dictatorship rules and commands, and constant fear of lose your lives, or the live of your dear ones at any single moment.

This moment we have our meek smiles, the next moment our face covered with ash--residue of our pappy and mommy. Welcome to third world. Sorry, I mean the real world. I hope you all enjoy living your life, living in your valueless monetary debts and false sense of security in your esteemed culture.

You want tragedy? Ask those little children who died under American bomb shells in the Iraq war and Afghanistan and Palestine. As an apathetic breed, you will not feel for them, their pain, their lose--they are worthless and dying in anyway; I do not doubt that it is the way you think. But you would for your own kind, and thus you make a 9/11 a memorial for the death of the innocent, but not for those who actually suffered and died in the course of the past ten years.

Neg-rep all you want. The fuck I care. Message is submitted. Because my voice is the voice of those little children that no one can longer hear them laughing and chattering in the playgrounds.

--------------------------------------------------


You are completely misunderstanding me. I'm saying take your opinion to a different thread because this thread is made as a tribute, not a debate. "debating isn't an opinion"? What the fuck? How did you even get that?? My point is, If you have a problem with 9/11, post it somewhere else.

HERE YOU GO! ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? I bet you won't follow me into this thread and try to debate now without saying the same thing over and over.

I'll address this. You don't believe debating is an opinion. I wasn't feeling like I was debating, but just expressing myself. I guess i'm debating though! Let's start a debate!


The fact that there are worse problems in the world does not negate the pain you feel at your own. NO ONE is saying there aren't worse tragedies out there.

Well they should just say it, because I'm quite sure THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE THINKING. I mean, why else would they mourn 9/11 for ten years and not give a flying fuck about anything else that happens or all the innocent people we're currently killing in wars?

Because it happened close to you and somehow effected you personally, even if you didn't live in the state it happened in or whatever? You compare what happened in 9/11 to what happens on a daily basis and you'll be much more grateful for what you have. You move on. Be strong. America is fucking weak compared to them.

You know how many terrorist attacks have happened on US after 9/11? Not that much really. Source. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States)

We're saying that this one happened close to us, and within the last decade, so we feel the pain of it more. By your logic, if my mother dies I shouldn't be allowed to mourn because there are people dying in Somalia.

NO! I'm trying to prove that mourning really means nothing and it's just hypocritical. You mourn one thing and forget about everything else because it doesn't effect you. It's selfish and yet it shows how little you care about people. When it comes down to it it's best not to mourn anyone though. What I'm trying to say is if you're going to mourn, mourn for the world. Or else your mourning means nothing at all. Well it's not like your grief and sadness if going to change or fix anything.



Am I to blame if I feel the loss of my mother more than a unknown mother in Somalia? Are you telling me you're such a saint, that you'd be as, or more, broken up about a child in Africa dying of starvation than your little baby brother dying in a car crash?

Probably. I mean, my brother is a heroin addict moving to different states all the time. But that's a personal debate, which isn't really relevant.

I wouldn't be broken up over anything. You get strong move along. When someone dies you celebrate their life, not over how sad it is that they're dead. That's why I think funerals are fucking stupid. Celebrating lives of dead people is so much better than crying over their deaths.

Get off your fucking high horse. The 3000 or so children that have lost parents are just becoming teens now, I'd like to see you go over them and tell them "stop whining, there were more deaths in Nanjing."

This mourning over 9/11 is a symbol of our weakness towards reacting on violence and terrorism. It shows how easy it really is to destroy us, even though US thinks they're, "The best and the strongest of all". That is way different than the personal mourning of family members.

That is not the point. This thread isn't about politics.

This is very much to do with politics.

[Angel Androgynous]

I agree with you... it's weird how the USA expects all other countries to mourn with them over 9-11 while they don't give a shit about anything else. I don't see the USA (as a whole) mourning the Armenian Genocide, I don't see the USA mourning the bombings in Japan (as you mentioned.) Yet, the USA thinks that the world has to give a shit about what happens here.
I don't really care about 9-11 and treat is as any tragedy that ever happened. It's part of history... and there are worse things out there... to be brutally honest... 9-11 turned (some) Americans into racist douches. What the USA needs to get into their heads is that: Not all Muslims are terrorists... and not all terrorists are Muslim.
That being said, I send my heartfelt condolences to those who lost family in 9-11... But whoever wasn't affected... at all... (like you were in a different country in a different time and your country didn't give a crap) stop pretending that you care...
Also:

Well, this explains why I don't know anybody who was actually affected by 9/11. People show their "remembrance" of it in public so that they look patriotic and make themselves feel better about being compassionate. It's all about being a "respectful" member of society; you have to go along with everyone else in remembering something that means nothing to you, and you can't voice your opinion about it because that opinion is wrong and bad.

Why can't the remembrance of 9/11 be left to the families and others who were actually devastated by the attacks? Why does it have to turn into a second Independence Day, where the media and the government use it to reinforce patriotism and their goal of "eliminating terrorism"? I've always thought it's wrong for somebody who hasn't been affected by something to act like they have been.

I have nothing against people being compassionate. But I think it's just disgusting that people are using an event like this simply because they want to look good. That's definitely what a majority of people on the Internet, who have never been touched by 9/11 and who have probably never been to New York City, are doing when they post something about "praying for the families" or "remembering the tragedy". When someone says that they don't care about 9/11, they get all offended, even though they secretly feel the same way. I bet nobody's going to remember the Japanese earthquake in 10 years, and nobody gives a fuck about the 2004 Indonesian tsunami – that killed 230,000 people – either, and it's been only 7 years.

Death is a very black-and-white concept. Either you care about it, or you don't. There's no such thing as "well, I care about these deaths, but not those". 9/11, ten years later, is now a day where people can pretend like they care about death, by focusing on one terrorist attack.

Fuck.

[Azunite]

Well there isn't much left to say, but I agree with every damn single word deapie just said.

I just can't see why people are obsessed to one single attack. Because thousands of people died at the same time? Well excuse me, even the Japanese don't make Hiroshima something super huge ( though according to "an American mind" they should mourn Hiroshima as if the entire country got bombed by nuclear bombs )

[aperson444]

Don't forget that USA funded Osama (Operation Cyclone) back in the 80's. Now, the acts of terror were horrible but thousands have died in the name of American Capitalism. If we mourn 9/11, we must also mourn victims of Capitalism and all those civilians who died as a result of USA's revenge strategy against the Middle East.

In the end, the USA has been and invaded so many nations since 1945 that it was inevitable that 9/11 would happen -- but STILL we haven't learned that we are not the worlds' police. I think we should mourn EVERY soldier and hero that died in a struggle. That means Hezbollah and innocent Palestinians too. That means Socialists, Capitalists and Anarchist rebels. We all die for a cause, a struggle and a nation, but why is 9/11 so superior to the tragedies that have happened across the world?

We will never "eliminate terrorism" because resistance is not terrorism. Resistance is revolution and until the West changes its attitude, the so-called "terrorism" will never disappear. Those some 3000 people who died that day are nothing to the people in the Middle East, Asia and Africa who are CONTINUALLY suffering at the hands of the Americans and their puppets. 9/11 is nothing more than a day for politicians to show their patriotism. Those who died are now a statistic and the civilians who have suffered across the globe are now forgotten.

[RoseyCadaver]

You know,I do care for those who were killed in 9/11 etc. etc. ,but I also have to agree with this:
I agree with you... it's weird how the USA expects all other countries to mourn with them over 9-11 while they don't give a shit about anything else. I don't see the USA (as a whole) mourning the Armenian Genocide, I don't see the USA mourning the bombings in Japan (as you mentioned.) Yet, the USA thinks that the world has to give a shit about what happens here.
I don't really care about 9-11 and treat is as any tragedy that ever happened. It's part of history... and there are worse things out there... to be brutally honest... 9-11 turned (some) Americans into racist douches. What the USA needs to get into their heads is that: Not all Muslims are terrorists... and not all terrorists are Muslim.
That being said, I send my heartfelt condolences to those who lost family in 9-11... But whoever wasn't affected... at all... (like you were in a different country in a different time and your country didn't give a crap) stop pretending that you care...
Also:

[Iris]

Calm down, I actually agree with your overall idea. I believe all terrible tragedies should be remembered. Including 9/11. There shouldn't be some kind of chart of which tragedies we're allowed to mourn and commemorate and which we aren't. So what, less people died in 9/11 than in other tragic events in history. That doesn't lessen people's right to feel the pain over what happened.


HERE YOU GO! ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? I bet you won't follow me into this thread and try to debate now without saying the same thing over and over.

Yeah, I am happier now. The previous thread was not a place to debate. It's like those fundamentalist Christians who go to soldiers' funerals with signs saying "Faggots burn in hell." You, and they, have the right to express your views on the subject, but for fuck's sake, not there.

I'll address this. You don't believe debating is an opinion. I wasn't feeling like I was debating, but just expressing myself. I guess i'm debating though! Let's start a debate!

Obviously there has been a misunderstanding. That thread wasn't asking for your opinion. It was to commemorate a sad event. I saw someone on the depression section saying that her grandfather died on 9/11, and it saddened me to think that if she had gone to the 9/11 tribute thread, where her sadness should have been validated, she'd find people saying that she should suck it up, because there are worse things happening in the world...If you want to say that, go ahead. But not there.

Well they should just say it, because I'm quite sure THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE THINKING. I mean, why else would they mourn 9/11 for ten years and not give a flying fuck about anything else that happens or all the innocent people we're currently killing in wars?

First of all, the only time people mourn 9/11 is on the anniversary of 9/11. That means it's been done approximately 10 times. There's a difference between mourning something for ten years and mourning it ten times. Second of all, the more recent the tragedy, the stronger the pain associated with that tragedy. 9/11 happened fairly recently, compared to other painful tragedies. Third, Americans are commemorating because it affected Americans themselves, and people have a kinship with those in the same country. If 9/11 is commemorated in any other way outside of the US, it's mostly because people from foreign countries died as a result of 9/11 as well. The only place with a major reaction to the anniversary of 9/11 is New York, which is quite logical. I agree with you that people should take more notice of other tragedies occurring around them as well, though, but instead of downplaying 9/11, all the other tragedies should be heightened.

Because it happened close to you and somehow effected you personally, even if you didn't live in the state it happened in or whatever? You compare what happened in 9/11 to what happens on a daily basis and you'll be much more grateful for what you have. You move on. Be strong. America is fucking weak compared to them.

You know how many terrorist attacks have happened on US after 9/11? Not that much really. Source. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States)

Why does everyone in society think that feeling pain so strongly that it takes an extensive amount time to heal and move on is a weakness? I think it's a strength. If people were more feeling and emotional, they'd have the compassion needed to try and resolve conflicts without inflicting harm on anyone else. But no, we all have to suck it up and ignore the pain, or else we're whiny, self-centered bitches. The irony is that America has moved on, emotionally. There's a thread in The VT Chronicles about that. Really the only place that hasn't moved on yet is NY, which, again, is understandable. And that link you provided completely failed to prove your point. That is quite a lot of terrorist attacks actually. There's a reason that so many of them failed though.

NO! I'm trying to prove that mourning really means nothing and it's just hypocritical. You mourn one thing and forget about everything else because it doesn't effect you. It's selfish and yet it shows how little you care about people. When it comes down to it it's best not to mourn anyone though. What I'm trying to say is if you're going to mourn, mourn for the world. Or else your mourning means nothing at all. Well it's not like your grief and sadness if going to change or fix anything.

You speak like this is something you can control. If you love someone or something and that person/thing is harmed or killed, it hurts. That's how humans are. Even elephants mourn. People tend to mourn people closer to them because they had a more intimate relationship with that person. You as a person lose more when someone close to you dies than when some unknown, unnamed person dies. It is selfish, but it's a level of selfishness that is understandable and not to be dismissed. This issue isn't so black and white. It's not between mourning one person and mourning the world. You'd lose your mind if you tried to mourn every single death ever with the same intensity with which you mourn someone you've loved. Even if you could control and direct your grief, which you can't, you'd lose your mind trying to mourn the world. But that doesn't mean you don't have the right to mourn a few.

Probably. I mean, my brother is a heroin addict moving to different states all the time. But that's a personal debate, which isn't really relevant.

I wouldn't be broken up over anything. You get strong move along. When someone dies you celebrate their life, not over how sad it is that they're dead. That's why I think funerals are fucking stupid. Celebrating lives of dead people is so much better than crying over their deaths.

Your personal experiences are not the norm. You being apathetic isn't something to be proud of. It's more of a defense mechanism than anything else. You're confusing something though; the funeral isn't for the dead person, but for the ones still living. It's a way for those left behind to express their pain and receive support. Celebrating the life is something done for the dead person. It shouldn't have to be either or; you can do both.

I'm sorry about your brother...

This mourning over 9/11 is a symbol of our weakness towards reacting on violence and terrorism. It shows how easy it really is to destroy us, even though US thinks they're, "The best and the strongest of all". That is way different than the personal mourning of family members.

And the mourning of the "Rape" of Nanjing is a symbol of our weakness reacting towards rape and mass murder? And the mourning of the Holocaust is a symbol of our weakness reacting towards horrific brutality and extreme, systematic genocide? These things are still being felt today. Are we weak? The US is doing fine, we haven't been destroyed. We're moving on. The only lingering effects are on those who were directly affected, the attitudes towards Muslims, and the tightened security. While these areas are still issues, they are by no means representative of any kind of 'destruction' in the US.

Where do you live??? Because around here (New York), no one thinks that the US is better than everyone else. Where do you get this stuff from?

This is very much to do with politics.

I was speaking about the thread, not 9/11 itself. The thread was directed towards one aspect of 9/11-the pain, the deaths, the destruction. That has nothing to do with politics.

[Sogeking]

It's like those fundamentalist Christians who go to soldiers' funerals with signs saying "Faggots burn in hell."


Not all fundies act like the wbc.

[BOSSPENGUIN]

9/11 was terrible. 1000's of people died and thats sad truely my dad had to go to saudi arabia for awhile because of that but.... i also cant deny the fact people die every day. earthquakes in japan, the bad water all around the world, countries that dont have the medicines they need. there are countless bad things in the world. yes these people died at the hand of a horrible man. but i dont think they would want us to stay in the past. we should move forward take whats at hand. osama bin ladin is dead. what we need to do is do everything we can to stop al qauida *i think thats how you spell it* and then help the world as much as we can we cant stay in the past this long anymore. its time to move forward. wow i didnt think i could write that good haha

[deadpie]

It's like those fundamentalist Christians who go to soldiers' funerals with signs saying "Faggots burn in hell." You, and they, have the right to express your views on the subject, but for fuck's sake, not there.

Are you seriously comparing what I was saying to the things Westburo Baptist Church saying, then yet saying you agree with my opinions, then debating my opinions and keep contradicting every little thing you say? You're just too funny.

Obviously there has been a misunderstanding. That thread wasn't asking for your opinion. It was to commemorate a sad event.

Well, like Murdoc was saying, I didn't want to make another 9/11 thread. It get's pretty annoying, kind of like having ten Justin Bieber threads.

I saw someone on the depression section saying that her grandfather died on 9/11, and it saddened me to think that if she had gone to the 9/11 tribute thread, where her sadness should have been validated, she'd find people saying that she should suck it up

Guess what? That's life. You could have any scenario really. Let's say some girl's father got hit by a train and then she sees a thread about trains. Think that'll make her feel good? It can literally go with anything. How are you supposed to know? And don't say, "Because it's more common for the deaths of 9/11", because I'm quite sure the majority of people on here that have had parents die weren't due to 9/11.

because there are worse things happening in the world...If you want to say that, go ahead. But not there.

It's the fact people only cry and mourn over things relevant to them and think everything else should be ignored. You either mourn all or mourn none in my opinion. Either or it's useless.

First of all, the only time people mourn 9/11 is on the anniversary of 9/11.

Are you implying there aren't tons of politicians who bring up 9/11 all the time and have preached the importance of the event? Are you implying families of the ones that were hurt from the event on'y mourn on that certain day? Are you implying everyone in the entire world only mourns on that day and not any other day? Are you saying people don't even mourn around that time of the day as it comes closer or as it has ended?

That means it's been done approximately 10 times. There's a difference between mourning something for ten years and mourning it ten times.

Proven wrong above.

Second of all, the more recent the tragedy, the stronger the pain associated with that tragedy.

So every other current tragedy, natural disaster and all the people brutally killed in the war are getting mourned too? I don't believe that for a second. US gave a shit about Japan getting fucked a few months ago for about a week or two, then got back to watching Two and A Half Men.

9/11 happened fairly recently, compared to other painful tragedies.

WOW! BECAUSE 9/11 IS THE ONLY EVENT OR BAD THING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN TEN YEARS!

Third, Americans are commemorating because it affected Americans themselves, and people have a kinship with those in the same country. If 9/11 is commemorated in any other way outside of the US, it's mostly because people from foreign countries died as a result of 9/11 as well. The only place with a major reaction to the anniversary of 9/11 is New York, which is quite logical. I agree with you that people should take more notice of other tragedies occurring around them as well, though, but instead of downplaying 9/11, all the other tragedies should be heightened.

Brings back my point that people only feel sad about things if they're personally effected and could give a shit less about anyone else in the entire world. I don't mean you should feel sad for every little dying kid in a third world country, but we should recognize it happens and be bothered by it. Knowing it exists is enough.

Why does everyone in society think that feeling pain so strongly that it takes an extensive amount time to heal and move on is a weakness?

Feeling over pain over things that DIDN'T EVEN HURT YOU is fucking dumb. If you lived states away, none of your family members were hurt, then you really have no reason to mourn for TEN years. Sure, mourn for a few months, then that's good.

Someone in a third world country will tell you that it gets easy to shorten your mourning and move on pass things when you live in a shithole. So when Americans take this long to get over something like 9/11, it's quite weak compared to that.

I think it's a strength. If people were more feeling and emotional, they'd have the compassion needed to try and resolve conflicts without inflicting harm on anyone else.

Are you saying if people don't mourn over 9/11 they're going to get so emotionally fucked up they'll inflict harm on people? Lol.

But no, we all have to suck it up and ignore the pain, or else we're whiny, self-centered bitches. The irony is that America has moved on, emotionally.

I live in Texas and it seems like everyone here is still crying and acting like their parents were crushed and burnt to death in the building. I'm quite sure most of them didn't get effected. They feel like it's necessary to cry over it, just to make sure they're a part of something that 'brings us together'. Brings up together into a scared government of growing tightened laws morealike.

You speak like this is something you can control. If you love someone or something and that person/thing is harmed or killed, it hurts. That's how humans are.

All humans are different. My time of feeling sad for people might be shorter or bigger than yours and it depends on the person or thing that happened. Being someone that's been dead before, knows of people that have died, my willing to feel a mourning for people has died out because that's just what happens to some people; they get used to it. I find that a nice characteristic.

Even elephants mourn. People tend to mourn people closer to them because they had a more intimate relationship with that person. You as a person lose more when someone close to you dies than when some unknown, unnamed person dies.

I'm the opposite though. If I lost certain people closed to me I'd feel quite good, because my definition of "close" means something entirely different than yours.

It is selfish, but it's a level of selfishness that is understandable and not to be dismissed. This issue isn't so black and white. It's not between mourning one person and mourning the world. You'd lose your mind if you tried to mourn every single death ever with the same intensity with which you mourn someone you've loved.

You don't have to mourn it. You can recognize it and acnolodge the sickening fact it exists. With that, you will tell yourself what the true world looks like. More people who understand that then the possibility increases that someone will give a big shit and try to do something about it.

Even if you could control and direct your grief, which you can't

Stop speaking for everyone. Some people can. And you're dismissing psychotic people, people who feel no emotions at all and/or manipulate emotions for self need.

you'd lose your mind trying to mourn the world. But that doesn't mean you don't have the right to mourn a few.

I feel bad for every event in this world and I acknowledge it exists. It bothers me. That's something I carry around in my head every day. Doesn't mean I cry over it, but this shit does bother me and I want to do something about it even if my efforts aren't big.

Your personal experiences are not the norm.

Says you and it doesn't make my feelings any more or less important, nor are yours.

the funeral isn't for the dead person, but for the ones still living. It's a way for those left behind to express their pain and receive support.

I find that quite stupid, that idea of saying, "This person is dead and I'm going to feel sad for everyone about it and comfort everyone, but not even really think anything about the persons life, but only their death."

Celebrating the life is something done for the dead person. It shouldn't have to be either or; you can do both.

The second one seems like the better idea. Channels more positive feelings towards everyone else and isn't like your pissing on a coffin with dirt and dressed in black.

I'm sorry about your brother...

You wouldn't be if you knew him.


And the mourning of the "Rape" of Nanjing

*Nanking

is a symbol of our weakness reacting towards rape and mass murder?

Are you saying tons of people do mourn it? I don't think so!

And the mourning of the Holocaust is a symbol of our weakness reacting towards horrific brutality and extreme, systematic genocide?

The Holocaust is more treated like television nostalgia than it is as a horrible event that happened. Sort of what Richey Edwards idea was too on the Holocaust.

These things are still being felt today.

Holocaust? Sort of. Other events? Fuck no.

Are we weak? The US is doing fine, we haven't been destroyed.

The US doesn't need to destroy itself to show that it's not doing good. People know.

We're moving on. The only lingering effects are on those who were directly affected, the attitudes towards Muslims, and the tightened security. While these areas are still issues, they are by no means representative of any kind of 'destruction' in the US.

Of course they are. Destruction of rights and also Seperation Of Church comes into this too. Like not allowing a Mosque built by Ground Zero, the strong hatred towards Muslims here in America, especially where I live here in the South.

Where do you live??? Because around here (New York), no one thinks that the US is better than everyone else. Where do you get this stuff from?

I live in Texas where Rick Perry is best friends with Jesus and if you smoke marijuana or have gay sex then you must worship Satan.

[CaptainObvious]

Ok, because moderators really get sort of angry and pissed off when your opinions have points against others, that means you have to take it to another thread so you don't get an infraction. SO, apparently I'm going to just make a big fat fucking 9/11 debate which is what they want. Apparently we can't just have one big shit thread to pile it all in.

Indeed. It's nice to see you learning the rules about that.

[Bougainvillea]

9/11 was terrible. 1000's of people died and thats sad truely my dad had to go to saudi arabia for awhile because of that but.... i also cant deny the fact people die every day. earthquakes in japan, the bad water all around the world, countries that dont have the medicines they need. there are countless bad things in the world. yes these people died at the hand of a horrible man. but i dont think they would want us to stay in the past. we should move forward take whats at hand. osama bin ladin is dead. what we need to do is do everything we can to stop al qauida *i think thats how you spell it* and then help the world as much as we can we cant stay in the past this long anymore. its time to move forward. wow i didnt think i could write that good haha
It wasn't that good IMO.

I have to say, I get tired of all the "omg im gunna pray 4 u" bullshit. It just pisses me off when people shove that shit in my face, and this dumb bitch at my work said "You know what we should do? We should go over there and bomb all those fucks and see how they like it." Like everyone who has brown skin and doesn't live in this country are terrorists. And now I'm a "bad American" because I was too busy taking a shit, rather than putting my hand on my heart while they were all saying the pledge of allegiance.

I'm so tired of listening to assholes whine and moan over it, Its sad. And there will be more sad to come. I've also heard people say "Why can't Obama just bring the troops home. >:["

Well, I'm guessing you probably just voted for the asshole who started the war in the first place,

I assure you, if there is a heaven, Osama is up there eating roast beef and mashed potatoes, right next to God, Because Jesus died for all our sins. God forgives everyone, and rugby is fucking stupid, and overly patriotic.

[Syvelocin]

My issue is other than the families affected, 9/11 didn't do shit. They cleaned up quite nicely, it's been ten years, and there's nothing further affecting the country. Now, try taking a visit to cities that were hit badly by past hurricanes. A lot of them are still affected by it today. There's a town that was badly destroyed in Georgia a year or so ago by flooding, the town is a ghost town now. Haiti is still suffering greatly. 9/11 does not plague Americans today, other than, like I said, grieving over lost loved ones. Americans recuperated, but are still making a huge deal out of it. I think about the twin towers on 9/11 just as much as I do the Titanic on 12 April and Pearl Harbour on 7 December. It's the eleventh, oh, but it just so happens that's the day the terrorist attack was. Then the day feels exactly the same as it always does. I was thinking about my boss's birthday actually, making sure I said Happy Birthday before I went home. And I didn't think about the terrorists attacks until I turned on the damn TV when I got home.

But, you know, the death toll for 9/11 was 2997. The earthquake in Haiti killed hundreds of thousands. How many people can honestly remember the exact date without looking it up? (this is what we call a hypothetical question, I don't want to read replies that just say January 12th).

I have no less or more sympathy than any American does, but my overall disdain lies not within the event, but the people in the world who are this disgusting.

I'm not saying no one recognizes other tragedies. I just can't think of a single situation where Americans (sorry for generalizing, but I'm sure more Americans feel grief about this than the rest of the world. Lots of Americans still who have my own viewpoint) feel more for a disaster that has absolutely no effect on them than 9/11. And don't say Holocaust or Japan earthquake or many other disasters that will come to mind. Because all that DOES affect America, just in ways that aren't as apparent. When this world starts caring about shit that goes down in a rural African country half the people have never heard of, then my hope for our species will regain.

[fenrirdies]

To tell you the truth a plane could crash killing thousands in america every day and I wouldn't care. Unless I am directly effected I have no reason to care and I don't . I don't have the ability to feel empathy and sympathy for some reason so even if it did I wouldn't care. I think the only people that should care are the people that lost people to that attack . I'm 17 and was 7 when it happens I was to young to care then so why should I now , why should any person who was a kid then care that didn't lose someone?

[Syvelocin]

The point is not to be an indifferent jerk, but not a self-centred sheep either. I think it requires a balance. One should be wary and smart about these things, which means limiting your feelings but not restricting them. I think you're just as bad as the people who care too much about 9/11, IMHO.

[fenrirdies]

I'm not trying to a jerk or indifferent, am a indiffererent person though but not by choice. I am just saying don't be a bleeding heart without reason. I also said I could not feel sympathy and empathy for a reason, I'm jot chosing to not feel these emotions I just don't have them.

[Bougainvillea]

I'm not trying to a jerk or indifferent, am a indiffererent person though but not by choice. I am just saying don't be a bleeding heart without reason. I also said I could not feel sympathy and empathy for a reason, I'm jot chosing to not feel these emotions I just don't have them.

So you have ass-burgers syndrome?

[fenrirdies]

I could I have never had it checked out

[deadpie]

nAMlF3KO1vs

Bam.

[Amaryllis]

Wow... He just quoted everything you said and burnt it to crisps, Lily.

Anyway, I kind of agree with Deadpie, Ida and that dude in the video above. There are lots of other tragedies, many worse than the 9/11. Not that I'm saying what happened wasn't terrible. It just isn't the only one. The US isn't the only country in the world. The media plays a big part in making the 9/11 the biggest tragedy of the century. This may not be terrorism but a lot of others are suffering as well. Acid throwing because she refused a marriage? Now she doesn't have a face. And there are many other men and women like her.

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/2010_2_12_15/y18_24566329.jpg

Hiroshima bombings? And don't say "They deserved it" because you can't dump an entire society into one because a handful of them did something "wrong"
http://img.chinasmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/japanese-atomic-bomb-victims-34.jpg

How about the terrorism in israel?
http://www.p10k.net/Images/terror_victims_palestine.jpg

I went to america with a muslim friend of mine and all the security guards at the airport chased after her like she was some serial killer. Crap happens. Over one million people commit suicide each year. People are starving, being tortured, kids are being abused, people are dying of cancer. There are over 7 billion people in the world! These are 3000! I feel for the people who were affected by the 9/11. But guess what? Life goes on.

EDIT: I now officially love that redneck-looking guy above. I wish he'd replace Obama.

[Infidelitas]

So what, less people died in 9/11 than in other tragic events in history. That doesn't lessen people's right to feel the pain over what happened.
Yeah, but if the entire world comes to a stand still, like people in Aus (who for the most part remain un-effected), thats over the top.

All I heard on my local news report, was about 9/11, and all their memorials at Ground Zero. Sorry if I sound like a cold hearted prick, but I'd prefer to hear my own local news report, to gain information that is important to me. I am 100% un-effected, so I do not need to see a half an hour news report about information I have seen every September 11th. That being said, I don't give a fuck about the poor kitty stuck up a tree in Gagebrook.

People can feel grief if they wish, but they don't need to drag the entire world down with them


The previous thread was not a place to debate.

Yet, you debated back with Tim (Deadpie), so you are just as bad as everyone else (myself included) who expressed their opinion in the other thread.

Obviously there has been a misunderstanding. That thread wasn't asking for your opinion. It was to commemorate a sad event. I saw someone on the depression section saying that her grandfather died on 9/11, and it saddened me to think that if she had gone to the 9/11 tribute thread, where her sadness should have been validated, she'd find people saying that she should suck it up, because there are worse things happening in the world...If you want to say that, go ahead. But not there.

No one is saying that that girl shouldn't be grieving, as people do it in their own ways, but it shouldn't drag the whole entire world down with her, like the U.S has done with 9/11. Sure, 9/11 is on a much larger scale, but it shouldn't still bring the world to a stand still every single year.

If a building in my city collapsed (via a terrorist attack), and killed the same amount of people, there would be much less sympathy for us, because, fuck, its only Hobart, not like its Sydney or Melbourne. There would be sympathy for the first two weeks, but it wouldn't make the news world wide every year, and ten years later.

First of all, the only time people mourn 9/11 is on the anniversary of 9/11.

Not true. People still mourn every day, not everyone who was directly effected, but some still do, for the loss of their father, brother, grandfather ect.
People were mourning for months and months afterwards. So, no. People don'y only mourn on September 11th.

That means it's been done approximately 10 times.
There's a difference between mourning something for ten years and mourning it ten times.

What I said above should suffice.

Second of all, the more recent the tragedy, the stronger the pain associated with that tragedy.
No shit, Captain Obvious

9/11 happened fairly recently, compared to other painful tragedies.
9/11 was before Haite, Tsunamis in Asia, Earth quake in New Zealand, Japan earthquake, floods in Queensland, Black Saturday Bush Fires in 2009 (which I was effected, because I wasn't far off being burned to death) ect.

Some of these trajedys have had 200 time more people die, than what happened on 9/11, how come no one gives a fuck? Why?


Third, Americans are commemorating because it affected Americans themselves, and people have a kinship with those in the same country.

And other communities in other countries don't? Do you think we don't give a fuck

The only place with a major reaction to the anniversary of 9/11 is New York, which is quite logical.

So, why do I get a half-an-hour news feed here in Australia? To get a reaction. Otherwise they wouldn't show it.

So, no. It isn't quite logical.

I agree with you that people should take more notice of other tragedies occurring around them as well

Well, why don't we do that? I'd love to hear other events! But people put soooo much emphasis to 9/11, they forget about other events that concern other countries other than themselves.

Why does [B]everyone in society think that feeling pain so strongly that it takes an extensive amount time to heal and move on is a weakness?

This to me seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong), that it is just 9/11 that people seem to want to mourn as a society. I have heard nothing about Hurricane Katrina for so many years, I'd like to see how they're going.



I'm sorry about your brother...

Why say that you're sorry about his brother, when you don't know the full story, and all the facts?


We're moving on.

Again, all of the news stories broadcasting across the globe. Local news reports are fine, but global. Really? Is that really moving on?


Where do you live??? Because around here (New York), no one thinks that the US is better than everyone else. Where do you get this stuff from?

I have seen the president's speeches, he gives of an attitude of that. I am not saying it's true, but thats the attitude that I see..

[Magus]

@FaithAndTrust: dyingofaids

------------------------------------------
So, I have looked a bit, and I did a little analysis as to why American so proud to announce 9/11 as a day of tragedy all around the globe and all of that hype.

Beside the fact that it was the last blow that hit America, let us point out some important things.

9/11 and the World Trade Center.

This obvious. The trade center. The world center. The hub of commerce in NYC. The Twin towers. Beside the already known Empire States Building, the Twin towers celebrated itself as the tallest towers in the world at one time, and in America. It was a cultural icon. There hasn't been a footage made of NYC without displaying the grandeur of the towers -- the towers that was boastfully skewering the sky.

Being such a cultural icon for the Americans, it has indeed has the heart of many people--from it its buffs, its visitor and many other who have done businesses in those tower. It is the marking edifice that defines the culturally advanced America.

So, people actually do not miss the people who died, but the cultural Icon. The blast also proved another thing. America is very vulnerable. It's weak, it is destitute, and destroyed and might fall in shambles. It has put the citizens minds in chaos. It has psychologically struck them. A real blow to their own sense of security.

Even though many authorities knew what's going to happen, non has stopped the tragedy. They went along the plan. Let them blast the shit. It's a small sacrifice that pays nicely. We don't know if Osama did this so he can lure the Americans to Muslims/Arabs, or that Bush made the illusion so he can have an excuse to go and mingle around the Middle-East. Both possibilities are sound and valid.

This is why people are so concerned with it, obsessed with it--every hard edged nationalistic Americans; people who wrap themselves in their nations flag, gloatingly posing like a bald eagle and chanting their national anthem. It's not that they have lost their people. They have lost their colossus icon--their beloved Twin Towers and World Trade Center, and they have the right to sit silent for their loved one, and make sure the world sees this, and understand this.

[CaptainObvious]

Even though many authorities knew what's going to happen, non has stopped the tragedy. They went along the plan. Let them blast the shit. It's a small sacrifice that pays nicely. We don't know if Osama did this so he can lure the Americans to Muslims/Arabs, or that Bush made the illusion so he can have an excuse to go and mingle around the Middle-East. Both possibilities are sound and valid.

Your argument was doing ok until here. The assertion that any explanation for 9/11 other than the one that has been substantiated with massive reams of evidence is "sound and valid" is a very stupid assertion.

[embers]

There were too many fucking programmes on it. Seriously, let the fucking families mourn without waving your patriotic 'america stands proud' bullshit covered dick all over the place. That said, I'm not apathetic to 9/11 or any other tragedy.

[Magus]

Your argument was doing ok until here. The assertion that any explanation for 9/11 other than the one that has been substantiated with massive reams of evidence is "sound and valid" is a very stupid assertion.

I think you did not get it. That, or I was not thoroughly clear. What I want to basically say, is that it does not matter what caused the building crash, and for what reason and intention. What is important is that the crash indeed happened--and that's what I have focused on, and that's what counts.

For me, it does not matter whether the American government, the aliens did, the terrorist did it--even the cause that had the insurmountable number of evidences. Anything is fine, hence asserting any claim as "sound and valid". It's the aftermath that counts here. Quote mining and focusing on that single spot does not win you anything, believe me. But it is good that you have pointed it out; I am careful of future slip-ups.

[Donkey]

I have explained my exact feelings here (http://jonathan.freedia.org.uk/?p=43). Basically, yeah, I agree for the most part with Tim. I think any loss of human life is a tragedy but I also think suffering is something that should be overcome or avoided. We do neither of these things by reminiscing on the past when we could be helping others and preventing suffering elsewhere; if we are not families or friends of the victims, as the vast majority of those paying tributes are not, it seems to be the emphasis is being put in the wrong place by society in general.

[BOBBY HILL]

america doesn't care if it doesn't effect them

same with almost every non-developing country

[Iris]

Are you seriously comparing what I was saying to the things Westburo Baptist Church saying, then yet saying you agree with my opinions, then debating my opinions and keep contradicting every little thing you say? You're just too funny.

The underlying theme of an idea being represented in the wrong place is similar between you and the WBC, yes. I said I agree that the tragedy of 9/11 should not be put on a pedestal, but instead of insulting it and the people who suffered because of it, we should provide the same amount of grief and respect for those who died in other tragedies. I contradicted you later on because many of the points you brought up were not directly related to this overall theme which I agree with.

Guess what? That's life. You could have any scenario really. Let's say some girl's father got hit by a train and then she sees a thread about trains. Think that'll make her feel good? It can literally go with anything. How are you supposed to know? And don't say, "Because it's more common for the deaths of 9/11", because I'm quite sure the majority of people on here that have had parents die weren't due to 9/11.

No, it's like a thread made to commemorate those who died in tragic train accidents, and someone posts that that thread is stupid and there shouldn't be commemorations for these people because there are people starving in Somalia. Just because there are greater tragedies out there, doesn't mean this one doesn't deserve respect and grief.

It's the fact people only cry and mourn over things relevant to them and think everything else should be ignored. You either mourn all or mourn none in my opinion. Either or it's useless.

The world isn't that black and white. No one should be discouraged from mourning for someone he or she loved because someone died of starvation that day. Any psychologist will tell you that trying to feel the pain you feel at a personal loss with all the other tragedies in the world will kill you. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't acknowledge that there are terrible things happening every day, but it's not humanely possible to mourn them all.

Are you implying there aren't tons of politicians who bring up 9/11 all the time and have preached the importance of the event? Are you implying families of the ones that were hurt from the event on'y mourn on that certain day? Are you implying everyone in the entire world only mourns on that day and not any other day? Are you saying people don't even mourn around that time of the day as it comes closer or as it has ended?

I'm speaking of major events and commemorations, not someone bringing it up. 9/11 shouldn't be taboo, people are allowed to speak of it. This isn't mourning; it's acknowledging and remembering. But the only time people truly mourn and feel pain over it is the anniversary. I've had classmates who've lost loved ones in 9/11, and they don't go around crying about it. If it comes up, it comes up. It's ridiculous to get irritated if it's just brought up.

So every other current tragedy, natural disaster and all the people brutally killed in the war are getting mourned too? I don't believe that for a second. US gave a shit about Japan getting fucked a few months ago for about a week or two, then got back to watching Two and A Half Men.

The countries who suffer through tragedies feel the pain stronger there. Japan felt the pain of the earthquake and following disasters stronger than we did, and we felt 9/11 stronger than the Japanese did. Every tragedy should be remembered and commemorated, and those who suffered from it are 'allowed' to feel it more than those who haven't. The US gave a shit for a while, but there isn't much we could do besides donate. Everyone acknowledges that it's terrible, it won't be forgotten, and at the anniversary of those who died, I know there'll be some kind of commemoration.

WOW! BECAUSE 9/11 IS THE ONLY EVENT OR BAD THING THAT HAS HAPPENED IN TEN YEARS!

No one is saying it is. But the fact that there are other terrible tragedies out there doesn't lessen the pain of this one.

Brings back my point that people only feel sad about things if they're personally effected and could give a shit less about anyone else in the entire world. I don't mean you should feel sad for every little dying kid in a third world country, but we should recognize it happens and be bothered by it. Knowing it exists is enough.

Everyone knows all those other tragedies exist. EVERYONE. Ask anyone whether they remember the 2004 tsunami, they'll say yes. They'll say it was a terrible, tragic event. If your issue is lack of acknowledgement then your argument is baseless. You should be directing your anger at Holocaust deniers then, not people who simply want to commemorate a tragic event.

Feeling over pain over things that DIDN'T EVEN HURT YOU is fucking dumb. If you lived states away, none of your family members were hurt, then you really have no reason to mourn for TEN years. Sure, mourn for a few months, then that's good.

Ok so let me get this straight-you're upset about commemorating 9/11 because it shows how people only feel pain over something that affects them personally, but you're also angry that people are expressing pain over 9/11 even though they haven't been personally affected? Don't you find that a little contradictory?

And as I said earlier, no one's been mourning for ten years. People have remembered it for ten years. The only time people are actively mourning it is on September 11.

Someone in a third world country will tell you that it gets easy to shorten your mourning and move on pass things when you live in a shithole. So when Americans take this long to get over something like 9/11, it's quite weak compared to that.

People in third world countries being forced to push away grief is hardly a strength. More like a necessity, to ensure survival. It's a sad thing. They should be given the same amount of time to mourn as Americans. Besides that, Americans have moved on. Did you see that article in the VT Chronicles? The vast majority of Americans moved on very soon after 9/11, excluding New Yorkers, which is understandable. And New York stopped mourning not too long after. But just because you remember a sad event doesn't mean you're mourning it. New Yorkers mourned for maybe a year or two, now we're recognizing and remembering.

Are you saying if people don't mourn over 9/11 they're going to get so emotionally fucked up they'll inflict harm on people? Lol.

I'm merely pointing out the virtues of being more compassionate. Don't twist my words.

I live in Texas and it seems like everyone here is still crying and acting like their parents were crushed and burnt to death in the building. I'm quite sure most of them didn't get effected. They feel like it's necessary to cry over it, just to make sure they're a part of something that 'brings us together'. Brings up together into a scared government of growing tightened laws morealike.

A few annoying people in Texas do not represent the entire US. When you complain that everyone is a self-centered asshole because a few people in Texas irritate you, your argument has no real basis

All humans are different. My time of feeling sad for people might be shorter or bigger than yours and it depends on the person or thing that happened. Being someone that's been dead before, knows of people that have died, my willing to feel a mourning for people has died out because that's just what happens to some people; they get used to it. I find that a nice characteristic.

Becoming desensitized to death is not something to be proud of, and not something to strive for. Sounds more like a defense mechanism to me. But as I said earlier, mourning is for the living, celebrating is for the dead. In the case of a major tragedy where you don't know the people who died, the best you can do is to mourn their deaths, and always remember the tragedy that killed them.

I'm the opposite though. If I lost certain people closed to me I'd feel quite good, because my definition of "close" means something entirely different than yours.

I mean close by relationship, not by blood. I'd be more broken up if my best friend died than if my mother did. If someone you really cared about dies, most people will feel pain, sadness, grief, and that's perfectly ok and shouldn't be inhibited.

You don't have to mourn it. You can recognize it and acnolodge the sickening fact it exists. With that, you will tell yourself what the true world looks like. More people who understand that then the possibility increases that someone will give a big shit and try to do something about it.

Again, no one denies it's existence. Recognition and mourning are entirely different things. Everyone thinks it's a horrific thing, how many people are dying through tragic means each day. Everyone. As for doing something about it, I disagree. If you are used to it, desensitized to it, resigned to it, you'd have far less motivation to try and end it. Every dies, why try to help those who'll just...die faster? Those people starving in Somalia, those kids stolen by Joseph Kony, they're all going to die anyway right? But if you feel the horrors of these events, refuse to accept that the world is this cruel, you'd be far more likely to go out there and try to change things, instead of just accepting that "that's life."

Stop speaking for everyone. Some people can. And you're dismissing psychotic people, people who feel no emotions at all and/or manipulate emotions for self need.

Psychotic and psychopathic people are not the norm. We're speaking of most people. Most people can't just file their grief. The few people who treat emotions differently are hardly relevant to this discussion.

I feel bad for every event in this world and I acknowledge it exists. It bothers me. That's something I carry around in my head every day. Doesn't mean I cry over it, but this shit does bother me and I want to do something about it even if my efforts aren't big.

Feeling bad isn't mourning. It's remembering, recognizing. There's a big difference. I care about all the tragedies out there too. But somehow you're overlooking the fact that 9/11 was a tragedy too. It's also something to remember and acknowledge, instead of insult.

Says you and it doesn't make my feelings any more or less important, nor are yours.

I'm sorry but I've read about some of the horrible things you've gone through, in your posts here and there. I'm so sorry, I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings, I'm just saying that most people don't go through that. Most people don't go through some of the shit I go through either. This is completely off topic though...

I find that quite stupid, that idea of saying, "This person is dead and I'm going to feel sad for everyone about it and comfort everyone, but not even really think anything about the persons life, but only their death."
The second one seems like the better idea. Channels more positive feelings towards everyone else and isn't like your pissing on a coffin with dirt and dressed in black.

Again, most people don't control their grief. They don't decide to feel sad. It's as innate and natural and pumping blood through your body. But they deal with their sadness, by saying goodbye to their loved one in their way, with other people who'll miss him/her. Then you remember that person. You celebrate the good times you had together. You do both.

*Nanking

They are interchangeable.

Are you saying tons of people do mourn it? I don't think so!

Um no. I'm saying it's not a weakness to mourn. You are convinced that everyone in the US is weak and pathetic because we mourned something for so long, which is not true, as I explained earlier. Anyway, I refuted that idea and brought forward other tragic events, and asked you if the people who mourn those tragic events are also weak.

The US doesn't need to destroy itself to show that it's not doing good. People know.

The US has made many mistakes in various different areas. That doesn't constitute "destruction." The US is going to be around, and pretty powerful for a while. Every country has its ups and downs.

Of course they are. Destruction of rights and also Seperation Of Church comes into this too. Like not allowing a Mosque built by Ground Zero, the strong hatred towards Muslims here in America, especially where I live here in the South.

Every country has bigoted individuals. Those individuals may even make up a large part of the country. But they are not the US. They are just a bunch of idiots who happen to live in the US. Again, we have issues. All countries have issues. They are not in any way great enough to destroy the US. Think about how at the same time people are being bigots, the legalization of gay marriage is spreading. You're only focusing on the bad.

I live in Texas where Rick Perry is best friends with Jesus and if you smoke marijuana or have gay sex then you must worship Satan.

Get out of Texas then. It's totally skewing your view of the world. I live in one of the most religiously oppressive communities in the US, but I don't assume for a second that the rest of the world is like the assholes I deal with.

[Hank Hill]

Now, if I can just say one thing, I don't have strong feelings for the people who died in 9/11, nor do I have much sympathy for the families, because I don't know them, but I do think that you can express your feelings about the event without sounding so harsh. The families who did have somebody die during 9/11 (or any other major event, no matter how insignifacantly recognized,) could take offense from the language. I would. Hate me if you will, but at least respect my opinion.

[deadpie]

we should provide the same amount of grief and respect for those who died in other tragedies.

Ok, which is funny because WE AREN'T FUCKING DOING THAT! Many tragedies stopped being talked about after two years time and many people don't give a shit unless it personally effects them. 9/11 has been mourning a shit load more than other tragedies.

Just because there are greater tragedies out there, doesn't mean this one doesn't deserve respect and grief.

Why the fuck not? What makes this tragedy so much more important than every other fucking thing that happens in this shitty fucked up world? I want to know why 9/11 is more important than those 20,000 kids dying every day of AIDS, the Japanese being hit by a fucking tsunami. I mean, that IS WAY WORSE than 9/11 and people paid attention for maybe... a week?

Your defense is selfish, weak, and nothing more than sad excuses.


The world isn't that black and white.

You make it sound more black and white then anyone I've ever talked to on the forum.

Any psychologist

There we go again with YOU SPEAKING FOR EVERYBODY! STOP DOING THAT!

will tell you that trying to feel the pain you feel at a personal loss with all the other tragedies in the world will kill you.

I'm not dead, so that psychologist needs to get fired.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't acknowledge that there are terrible things happening every day, but it's not humanely possible to mourn them all.

You're wrong, because I do it every day. I feel bad for every single person on this planet that has to deal with the shit they deal with in their lives and I'm still alive on this planet, not murdered by my emotions or whatever the hell that means.

I'm speaking of major events and commemorations, not someone bringing it up. 9/11 shouldn't be taboo, people are allowed to speak of it.

Uh, 9/11 isn't taboo? All because a bunch of people are trying to say it's time we get over it ten years later it becomes taboo now according to you? Give me a break.

This isn't mourning; it's acknowledging and remembering. But the only time people truly mourn and feel pain over it is the anniversary. I've had classmates who've lost loved ones in 9/11, and they don't go around crying about it. If it comes up, it comes up. It's ridiculous to get irritated if it's just brought up.

I seriously, out of my asshole feelings, think that some people are just lying when they say, "I know many people who died in 9/11". There is over 3 MILLION people in the United States alone. Less than 3,500 of people were killed. The chance of being personally effected is quite low.

Are you kidding me? Have you not been watching CBS and that amazing Fox channel? People crying their asses off over dead people, pictures of people jumping off buildings, then summed up with firefighters saying, "We're so strong, this is an important event to remember forever."

The countries who suffer through tragedies feel the pain stronger there. Japan felt the pain of the earthquake and following disasters stronger than we did, and we felt 9/11 stronger than the Japanese did.

So what? That's your defense for letting people not give a shit about other tragedies out of their countries? That's inhuman. You care about your race, humanity. If you don't you just shit on it. Simple as that.

Every tragedy should be remembered and commemorated, and those who suffered from it are 'allowed' to feel it more than those who haven't. The US gave a shit for a while, but there isn't much we could do besides donate. Everyone acknowledges that it's terrible, it won't be forgotten, and at the anniversary of those who died, I know there'll be some kind of commemoration.

The only reason it hasn't been forgotten, taken off television and such is because it's a good way for people to make $$$$$$$$. I hope you realize that. 9/11 has become more a marketing scheme then you could ever imagine.


Everyone knows all those other tragedies exist.

Ok, one last time. STOP SPEAKING FOR EVERYONE.



Ask anyone whether they remember the 2004 tsunami, they'll say yes.

Ask someone about Nanking. Just about EVERY person I've talked to that I've mentioned that to hasn't even heard of it. Same with the camps we set up for the Japanese here in America in the 1940's.

And I don't think people do actually recognize tragedies, because then they wouldn't be ok with innocent people being killed in war.

They'll say it was a terrible, tragic event. If your issue is lack of acknowledgement then your argument is baseless. You should be directing your anger at Holocaust deniers then, not people who simply want to commemorate a tragic event.

What? I'm bashing people who think they should be able to hand pick what to feel bad about just because it's relevant to them and saying fuck the rest. I'm trying to call out people on their selfishness.


Ok so let me get this straight-you're upset about commemorating 9/11 because it shows how people only feel pain over something that affects them personally, but you're also angry that people are expressing pain over 9/11 even though they haven't been personally affected? Don't you find that a little contradictory?

Uh, I have never said that people directly hurt by 9/11 with their family members killed makes me angry when the family members mourned over them. I did say this fake mourning, pretending to care just to feel like you're part of something life changing and big, is fucking dumb. That's not even mourning.


And as I said earlier, no one's been mourning for ten years.

Are you seriously saying NO SINGLE PERSON IN THIS ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET has been mourning 9/11 for ten years?

People have remembered it for ten years. The only time people are actively mourning it is on September 11.

Why am I debating with you? You make absolutely no sense, you call me out saying I'm on a high horse when you speak for every living person on this planet as if we're fucking robots, which, well, might just be true in some senses, but that's for a different thread.

People in third world countries being forced to push away grief is hardly a strength.

Pushed away? It's more of getting used to dealing with shit. That doesn't just happen in third world countries, it happens EVERYWHERE.

Your parents, animals, friends, everyone close to you will die the older you get. The more people die typically it becomes easier to move on and not feel as shitty and depressed.

More like a necessity, to ensure survival. It's a sad thing. They should be given the same amount of time to mourn as Americans. Besides that, Americans have moved on.

No.

Did you see that article in the VT Chronicles? The vast majority of Americans moved on very soon after 9/11, excluding New Yorkers, which is understandable. And New York stopped mourning not too long after. But just because you remember a sad event doesn't mean you're mourning it. New Yorkers mourned for maybe a year or two, now we're recognizing and remembering.

Explains why people still gather around at schools and churches to cry, hold hands and pray over the event like it just happened yesterday. All of this shit still happens. The news preaches it. Like I said, the media will try to milk as much pennies as they can out 9/11 until the event is rendered absolutely useless.

A few annoying people in Texas do not represent the entire US.

Even if they don't, I hope you realize that when most countries look at America, they mostly stare at Texas and laugh at the stupidity here. It's quite embarrassing.

When you complain that everyone is a self-centered asshole because a few people in Texas irritate you, your argument has no real basis.

Ok we can pin ball back in forth saying "Your argument has no basis", but then why the fuck are we debating? We're debating something over and over with no basis or point whatsoever?

Becoming desensitized to death is not something to be proud of, and not something to strive for.

LOL YOU THINK PEOPLE STRIVE TO DESENSITIZE THEMSELVES OF DEATH? You are funny! It's getting stronger with your emotions and learning how to deal with natural events that happen in life better. Do you really think that we should mourn as much as possible over every close person that dies and feel horrible all the time? Do you know how much depression that would cause you?

That's why most people get over things faster after they learn the basic concepts of death and see it happen to family members. It's not weakness or desensitization.

mourning is for the living, celebrating is for the dead.

Please, just stop. I'm about to just stop right now due to how bad this is. The majority mourn over death. And you don't celebrate over the dead what the fuck? When I meant celebration I meant remembering the entire life of someone.

Lol, just in case you guys didn't see what she said, I'll quote it four times.

celebrating is for the dead.

celebrating is for the dead.

celebrating is for the dead.

celebrating is for the dead.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!


In the case of a major tragedy where you don't know the people who died, the best you can do is to mourn their deaths, and always remember the tragedy that killed them.

It's not always a tragedy that kills someone. And mourning is no way better than just remembering someones entire life. When I die I don't want people crying, feeling all bad and bringing negative emotions everywhere. I'd rather people, whoever that'd be, just celebrate over the life I lived and the memories I've shared with those people. Now that is a safer and better way of moving on.


As for doing something about it, I disagree. If you are used to it,

Join the club of misanthropy! Fuck making the world a better place. NUKES NUKES NUKES! WORLD HUNGER AND KILLING KIDS IN WARS! YAY!

Every dies, why try to help those who'll just...die faster? Those people starving in Somalia, those kids stolen by Joseph Kony, they're all going to die anyway right?

HOLY SHIT! THAT IS FUCKING EVIL!


Well you're going to die one day too. Let's throw you out in the middle of Somalia. Oh, but they're going to die one day anyways. They're really not THAT TERRIBLY IMPORTANT. You could say the same with people with low risk of living in hospitals, drug addicts who seem to never get clean, suicidal people who seem to never get happy. They're going to die quicker anyway! Who gives a shit! Hahahahaha. No.

That's a sick, disgusting philosophy, thinking that because some people have a life of shit and probably can't get out of it, it's better to just leave them there to rot then actually try to do something about it because the effort would cost money and actually giving a fuck.

This goes right back to you and people like you "hand picking who you give a shit about".

You really think you can win a debate with what you just said? Dead wrong.

I'm not even going to fucking reply to the rest of what you say due to how evil the things you just said were.

[Infidelitas]

the media will try to milk as much pennies as they can out 9/11 until the event is rendered absolutely useless.

This statement. 100% Correct.

Why the fuck do I still get 1/2 an hour news bulletins, when it isn't even my country.
I have head it all 1000 times since, I don't need to hear it again.

[Iris]

Ok, which is funny because WE AREN'T FUCKING DOING THAT! Many tragedies stopped being talked about after two years time and many people don't give a shit unless it personally effects them. 9/11 has been mourning a shit load more than other tragedies.

Clam down. I'm saying we should do this. That the people who aren't treating tragedies with with the magnitude those tragedies deserve should do so. My point being that instead of downplaying one tragedy, we should raise all the others.

Why the fuck not? What makes this tragedy so much more important than every other fucking thing that happens in this shitty fucked up world? I want to know why 9/11 is more important than those 20,000 kids dying every day of AIDS, the Japanese being hit by a fucking tsunami. I mean, that IS WAY WORSE than 9/11 and people paid attention for maybe... a week?

I didn't say this tragedy is worst. In fact I said, multiple times, that this is not even close to the worse tragedy. But just because it's not the greatest tragedy the world has ever faced doesn't mean it should be thrown aside and slammed. According to your philosophy, no one who isn't being massacred, or starved to death is allowed to complain about anything, because there is something worse happening out there. So next time someone posts that their mother died, you go tell them what whiny self-centered fucktards they are, and when someone cries because they were raped, be sure to enlighten them on their selfish cruelty, because the women in Nanjing were not only raped, they also had bayonets shoved up their vagina.

Your defense is selfish, weak, and nothing more than sad excuses.

And yours is cruel, hypocritical, contradictory, and you only see and read what you want to read, interpret my words in ways that completely disregard their actual meaning in favor of continuing your self-absorbed rage fest.

You make it sound more black and white then anyone I've ever talked to on the forum.

Right. Me saying that you don't have to chose between mourning every single human's death in the entire world and mourning none is black and white. That's ridiculous.

There we go again with YOU SPEAKING FOR EVERYBODY! STOP DOING THAT!

people only cry and mourn over things relevant to them and think everything else should be ignored

US gave a shit about Japan getting fucked a few months ago for about a week or two, then got back to watching Two and A Half Men.

people only feel sad about things if they're personally effected and could give a shit less about anyone else in the entire world

everyone here is still crying and acting like their parents were crushed and burnt to death in the building

I don't think people do actually recognize tragedies

it's a good way for people to make $$$$$$$$s

most countries look at America, they mostly stare at Texas and laugh at the stupidity here.

Hypocrite.

I'm not dead, so that psychologist needs to get fired.

Then we either have very different definitions of mourning or you're just one of a kind.

You're wrong, because I do it every day. I feel bad for every single person on this planet that has to deal with the shit they deal with in their lives and I'm still alive on this planet, not murdered by my emotions or whatever the hell that means.

I 'feel bad' too. 'Feeling bad' isn't the crushing pain of grief and loss.

Uh, 9/11 isn't taboo? All because a bunch of people are trying to say it's time we get over it ten years later it becomes taboo now according to you? Give me a break.

Someone tried to make a thread about commemorating 9/11 and you jumped on it like it was a crime. People should be allowed to express their feelings about 9/11 without the fear of being called a self-centered loser.

I seriously, out of my asshole feelings, think that some people are just lying when they say, "I know many people who died in 9/11". There is over 3 MILLION people in the United States alone. Less than 3,500 of people were killed. The chance of being personally effected is quite low.

People lying about knowing victims of 9/11 is completely not the point. And who cares if they aren't personally affected? Didn't you tell me, repeatedly, that you hate 9/11 mourning because those people only do it for their personal gain/reasons, and should be mourning and remembering even if they have no connection to the victims?

Are you kidding me? Have you not been watching CBS and that amazing Fox channel? People crying their asses off over dead people, pictures of people jumping off buildings, then summed up with firefighters saying, "We're so strong, this is an important event to remember forever."

They do that only on the anniversary of 9/11, because that day people again mourn-not just remember-the losses, and feel the pain they felt in 2001.

So what? That's your defense for letting people not give a shit about other tragedies out of their countries? That's inhuman. You care about your race, humanity. If you don't you just shit on it. Simple as that.

That's not an excuse, but an explanation; a description. It was just annoying me that everything was the "US this," and the "US that." The problem with not feeling the pain of people you don't know like it is your own pain, is a universal thing, and until we find some way to create a Utopian society where everyone unconditionally loves each other, that's the way it's going to stay. So instead of wasting your time bashing people who want to mourn and remember a tragedy in peace, try doing something that will change this attitude. Insulting a tragedy just because there have been worse isn't the way to bring people together.

The only reason it hasn't been forgotten, taken off television and such is because it's a good way for people to make $$$$$$$$. I hope you realize that. 9/11 has become more a marketing scheme then you could ever imagine.

It doesn't matter what the underlying purpose is, if it helps people to have their feeling of grief validated. It's once a year, get over it.

Ask someone about Nanking. Just about EVERY person I've talked to that I've mentioned that to hasn't even heard of it. Same with the camps we set up for the Japanese here in America in the 1940's.

Your personal experience-asking people around you-is not evidence.

And I don't think people do actually recognize tragedies, because then they wouldn't be ok with innocent people being killed in war.

People aren't ok with it, many feel that it's a necessary evil. Again, not an excuse but an explanation.

What? I'm bashing people who think they should be able to hand pick what to feel bad about just because it's relevant to them and saying fuck the rest. I'm trying to call out people on their selfishness.

Except that they're not handpicking. If someone doesn't mourn every day of his or her life because hundreds of people died that day, that doesn't make them selfish. People know about famine in Africa. They are saddened by it. They are not cruel for wailing and pulling out their hair in utter distress because of it.

Uh, I have never said that people directly hurt by 9/11 with their family members killed makes me angry when the family members mourned over them. I did say this fake mourning, pretending to care just to feel like you're part of something life changing and big, is fucking dumb. That's not even mourning.

I agree. It is dumb. But who are you to decide whether someone is mourning because they are a truly caring person, or because they 'need to feel like they're something life-changing'? And then go bash a thread that was made for people who actually cared about the people who died because it annoyed you?

Are you seriously saying NO SINGLE PERSON IN THIS ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET has been mourning 9/11 for ten years?

Now you're just nitpicking. But yeah, people feel sad when they think about 9/11, but they don't lose themselves in the pain of it.

Why am I debating with you? You make absolutely no sense, you call me out saying I'm on a high horse when you speak for every living person on this planet as if we're fucking robots, which, well, might just be true in some senses, but that's for a different thread.

Funny, I feel the same way about you.

Pushed away? It's more of getting used to dealing with shit. That doesn't just happen in third world countries, it happens EVERYWHERE.
Your parents, animals, friends, everyone close to you will die the older you get. The more people die typically it becomes easier to move on and not feel as shitty and depressed.

I hope I don't have to 'get used to dealing with shit' like the people in those third world countries. That shit doesn't happen everywhere. Watching someone wither away from starvation or get shot in the head doesn't happen everywhere. After the deaths of many you get desensitized, you don't feel the pain as strongly. I don't call that a good thing.

Explains why people still gather around at schools and churches to cry, hold hands and pray over the event like it just happened yesterday. All of this shit still happens. The news preaches it. Like I said, the media will try to milk as much pennies as they can out 9/11 until the event is rendered absolutely useless.

They do that on the actual date of 9/11 only, because that is when people are reminded of the pain they felt on 9/11.

Even if they don't, I hope you realize that when most countries look at America, they mostly stare at Texas and laugh at the stupidity here. It's quite embarrassing.

Proof?

Ok we can pin ball back in forth saying "Your argument has no basis", but then why the fuck are we debating? We're debating something over and over with no basis or point whatsoever?

If you are basing your argument on your experiences with people in Texas, your argument has no real support, because there is a lot more to the US than just Texas.

LOL YOU THINK PEOPLE STRIVE TO DESENSITIZE THEMSELVES OF DEATH? You are funny! It's getting stronger with your emotions and learning how to deal with natural events that happen in life better. Do you really think that we should mourn as much as possible over every close person that dies and feel horrible all the time? Do you know how much depression that would cause you?

You said that not getting worked up over death, aka, becoming desensitized, is a nice characteristic. I disagreed. You are misunderstanding me.

I don't think you should mourn as much as you possibly can, but what you brought up is the opposite extreme: not mourning at all. Neither of those two extremes are good.

That's why most people get over things faster after they learn the basic concepts of death and see it happen to family members. It's not weakness or desensitization.

Seeing family members die isn't a good way to learn about death. Those who do learn about death the hard way get over it faster because they get hardened faster. Getting hardened towards something makes you less sensitive towards it, hence the term 'desensitization.'

Please, just stop. I'm about to just stop right now due to how bad this is. The majority mourn over death. And you don't celebrate over the dead what the fuck? When I meant celebration I meant remembering the entire life of someone.

I was shortening a concept I brought forward in my previous post that I assumed you'd remember. I said that the people who are mourning are doing it for themselves, really; it's comforting. Celebrating and appreciating the life and time you spent with the dead individual is meant as a way to respect that individual.

Lol, just in case you guys didn't see what she said, I'll quote it four times.

Grow up.

It's not always a tragedy that kills someone. And mourning is no way better than just remembering someones entire life. When I die I don't want people crying, feeling all bad and bringing negative emotions everywhere. I'd rather people, whoever that'd be, just celebrate over the life I lived and the memories I've shared with those people. Now that is a safer and better way of moving on.

No, but in this debate we're speaking primarily of death by tragedy. It's selfish not to let people cry and feel grief because that's not what you want, because the grief is about the pain they feel about losing you, about not having any more of those great moments with you that they'll proceed to celebrate. You can do both.

HOLY SHIT! THAT IS FUCKING EVIL!


Well you're going to die one day too. Let's throw you out in the middle of Somalia. Oh, but they're going to die one day anyways. They're really not THAT TERRIBLY IMPORTANT. You could say the same with people with low risk of living in hospitals, drug addicts who seem to never get clean, suicidal people who seem to never get happy. They're going to die quicker anyway! Who gives a shit! Hahahahaha. No.

That's a sick, disgusting philosophy, thinking that because some people have a life of shit and probably can't get out of it, it's better to just leave them there to rot then actually try to do something about it because the effort would cost money and actually giving a fuck.

.................I was being sarcastic. I was mocking your philosophy. This whole rant you just wrote was what I felt when I read what you said, but I responded to it with an actual argument instead of a rage fest.

This goes right back to you and people like you "hand picking who you give a shit about".

Oh yeah, you got me (AND JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T GET IT, THAT'S SARCASM).

You really think you can win a debate with what you just said? Dead wrong.

You're right, I should write self-righteous little rants instead of trying to have some kind of debate.

I'm not even going to fucking reply to the rest of what you say due to how evil the things you just said were.

Yeah, that's why.

Don't forget, I'm only debating here because you challenged me. I have stuff to do in my life; piles of homework, and I'm getting 4 hours of sleep a night. And instead of doing that I'm wasting hours typing actual arguments for you to consider, while you let it all blow over your head because you only read what you want to read. You think I like being such a bitch like this? Insulting you, like this is a stupid little catfight? But what do you want me to do when you insult me every second paragraph and ignore all the time I put in to try and show you my point, all for nothing because you are completely closed off to anything other than your little rants.

If I annoy you so much, don't bother replying.

[deadpie]

According to your philosophy, no one who isn't being massacred, or starved to death is allowed to complain about anything, because there is something worse happening out there.

You are really the best at not understanding a single word I say. I kind of had a feeling you would just say the same damn thing over and over and over and over just like you have been nonstop, even though that's not what I said at all. I never said people should get over everything and suck it up. I'm saying that mourning is fucking useless, it doesn't help you feel good, and people shouldn't hand pick what they want to mourn over, but instead feel bad for all things that happen equally.

So next time someone posts that their mother died, you go tell them what whiny self-centered fucktards they are, and when someone cries because they were raped, be sure to enlighten them on their selfish cruelty


What the fuck? You are really just trying to twist things up now. What in the hell does mourning have to do with being raped? And guess what? I did the exact opposite of what you said I'd do when someone lost their mom and dad right here. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1424517&postcount=10) Stop trying to make me sound like some insane psycho fucker when you at the exact same time said that you could give a fuck less about Somalian children starving because they're going to die anyway.

Also, I was fucking raped for four years. I don't know who the fuck you think you are, but I would NEVER, NEVER say that to a rape victim. I've made many friends on this site and I've had one that I talk to on a DAILY BASIS trying to help due to what has happened to her. Don't you ever fucking pull that judgmental bullshit on me.



And yours is cruel, hypocritical, contradictory, and you only see and read what you want to read, interpret my words in ways that completely disregard their actual meaning in favor of continuing your self-absorbed rage fest.

Are you implying you don't do the exact same thing? You saying that I'm cruel because I believe that celebrating people's lives and cherishing who they are is a bad thing and instead we should fucking mourn over people's deaths because WE WERE HURT, like as if the person that died isn't really that much of a part of their own death?

Right. Me saying that you don't have to chose between mourning every single human's death in the entire world and mourning none is black and white. That's ridiculous.

The reason you're so black and white is because you think - "This matters, this doesn't because I say so".

Hypocrite.

Nice way of editing things around to sound the way you want it to for people, because you expect people to skip my posts and read yours only so they only see the excerpts. And none of that is fucking hypocritical in the first place.

Then we either have very different definitions of mourning or you're just one of a kind.

It seems like the people I've been talking to here on VT agree more with me than you though. Sorry.

I 'feel bad' too. 'Feeling bad' isn't the crushing pain of grief and loss.

Feeling bad is quite an open thing to say, because it can mean many things, including grief and loss. Wow. Seems like you really know so much about emotions and everything.

Someone tried to make a thread about commemorating 9/11 and you jumped on it like it was a crime.

I jumped in it because I didn't want to make another 9/11 thread, which is what I ended up having to do for you and the mods.

People should be allowed to express their feelings about 9/11 without the fear of being called a self-centered loser.

Give me one FUCKING TIME anyone has called anyone a self centered loser about 9/11 on this site. I want the quote too with those three words put together. Also, I should be able to express my feelings about 9/11 without the fear of being called a self centered loser too, eh? Or because I disagree with you that's irrelevant.

"Stop disagreeing with my opinions" - your philosophy.

People lying about knowing victims of 9/11 is completely not the point.

How is it not the point? Isn't that pretty offensive and fucked up towards people who actually lost people in 9/11?

And who cares if they aren't personally affected?

Lolwat? Now you're starting to really twist your own words.

SoDidn't you tell me, repeatedly, that you hate 9/11 mourning because those people only do it for their personal gain/reasons, and should be mourning and remembering even if they have no connection to the victims?

I said that I hate people mourning 9/11 like as if they have lost ones under it when they live States away and they didn't. It makes me sick that they think they need to be a part of something big and life changing, so they force themselves to be affected by the event to give them a fake belief that they give a shit, but they don't, because they don't give a shit about anything else out of the US. Wait, they don't even give a shit about shit in the US either, like how about those insane Tornadoes earlier this year that destroyed thousands of cities and wiped them out? No news coverage. What about the flooding going on up north right now? Nobody certainly cares about that. What about police brutality? You can go on with the horrible things that go on in America that nobody gives a shit about too.

They do that only on the anniversary of 9/11, because that day people again mourn-not just remember-the losses, and feel the pain they felt in 2001.

They, speaking for everyone again. You really gotta stop doing that. And there's many people I'm sure who don't just mourn 9/11 on 9/11.

Let's say you're right and people only give a shit and mourn about 9/11 on 9/11. I find that kind of stupid. Why does the date matter all because that's when the event happened? Should it have to be objectively decided what day everyone is supposed to mourn? Should that really matter?

The problem with not feeling the pain of people you don't know like it is your own pain, is a universal thing, and until we find some way to create a Utopian society where everyone unconditionally loves each other, that's the way it's going to stay. So instead of wasting your time bashing people who want to mourn and remember a tragedy in peace, try doing something that will change this attitude. Insulting a tragedy just because there have been worse isn't the way to bring people together.

You think I'm debating and criticizing the 9/11 mourning for no real reason but just to offend people. You literally still think that. That's why I don't want to reply after this post, because it's going nowhere and this just proves it.

It doesn't matter what the underlying purpose is, if it helps people to have their feeling of grief validated. It's once a year, get over it.

9/11 happened ten years ago. Get over it.

Wow, that analogy works quite well, huh?


Your personal experience-asking people around you-is not evidence.

Ok, here's your fucking evidence.

Bam. (http://cindyvine.hubpages.com/hub/Nanjings-Forgotten-Massacre)



People aren't ok with it

Most people denied Nanking ever happened just because it's so embarrassing how fucked up humanity really can get.

=And then go bash a thread that was made for people who actually cared about the people who died because it annoyed you?

Why do you give a fuck so much? Are you just trying to troll me at this point, trying to make me angry to the point where I end up getting an infraction or something?

Now you're just nitpicking. But yeah, people feel sad when they think about 9/11, but they don't lose themselves in the pain of it.

HOW THE HELL IS THAT NITPICKING? THAT MAKES NO SENSE!

You literally do not know what you're saying at all.

Funny, I feel the same way about you.

Then this is proof we're going nowhere and you should stop, because I probably won't until I'm too fucking annoyed by the things you say.

I hope I don't have to 'get used to dealing with shit' like the people in those third world countries. That shit doesn't happen everywhere. Watching someone wither away from starvation or get shot in the head doesn't happen everywhere. After the deaths of many you get desensitized, you don't feel the pain as strongly. I don't call that a good thing.

How is dealing with humanity, dealing with death, understanding the concepts of death, moving on and getting over things a bad things?

They

Ok, I'm just about sick of you using the word they and everyone all the time, unless you include who they and everyone is, unless you literally mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON. How hard is that for you to understand?

]do that on the actual date of 9/11 only, because that is when people are reminded of the pain they felt on 9/11.

Saying the same shit again.

Proof?

Because most people think America is something like this:

DGlXfCZTeQI

Why do they think that? Because stupid shows more than smart these days and people are going to see the stupid, judge and bam.

If you are basing your argument on your experiences with people in Texas, your argument has no real support, because there is a lot more to the US than just Texas.

What the hell does that have to do with anything I said?

Seeing family members die isn't a good way to learn about death.

Ok? Then what is a good way to learn about death? Watch it on the TV so you can pretend you get it? Because it doesn't work like that.

This is the dumbest thing you've said yet. Is there any good way to learn about death that's actually honest other than having someone you know die? I don't think it's any more honest then that.

Those who do learn about death the hard way get over it faster because they get hardened faster. Getting hardened towards something makes you less sensitive towards it, hence the term 'desensitization.'

There's no problem with hardening up. All because you can't mourn doesn't mean you can't appreciate someone's existence. I don't mourn over people that I know that die, but instead think about the good memories with them, the person they were, shit like that. You know, not trying to make everything about me when their death is about them.

Grow up.

I should grow up? Says the woman the same age as me who said who doesn't give a shit about starving children because it takes effort to fix?

.................I was being sarcastic. I was mocking your philosophy. This whole rant you just wrote was what I felt when I read what you said, but I responded to it with an actual argument instead of a rage fest.

Then why the hell would you use that sarcasm without pointing it out, because it's quite obvious that wasn't my point. And you made it sound very offensive without even noting you were kidding until I called you out on it.

Oh yeah, you got me (AND JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T GET IT, THAT'S SARCASM).

In case you didn't know, you can't actually see or hear people while they're posting on a forum, so it's sometimes hard to tell with people when they're being completely sarcastic unless you're that exact person that is posting.

You're right, I should write self-righteous little rants instead of trying to have some kind of debate.

Lol ok. You're the one that was pushing the envelope with not giving a shit about people out of the US, just because it's an effort that costs money and they're 'going to die anyway'. I still think you meant all of that, no matter what you say, because if you didn't you would of said more than "I was being sarcastic".

while you let it all blow over your head because you only read what you want to read.

Which I can say you do the exact same thing and you can't prove either side, can you? You can only go with what majority agrees in the debate on that, huh?

You think I like being such a bitch like this? Insulting you, like this is a stupid little catfight? But what do you want me to do when you insult me every second paragraph and ignore all the time I put in to try and show you my point, all for nothing because you are completely closed off to anything other than your little rants.

Your points are dumb and you're not actually saying anything new to prove them. It's just the same thing over and over.

If I annoy you so much, don't bother replying.

I don't know how to stop debating most of the time, so sorry, but you'll have to deal with that.

[Amaryllis]

This probably won't do my rep much good, but...

9/11 shouldn't be taboo, people are allowed to speak of it. This isn't mourning; it's acknowledging and remembering. But the only time people truly mourn and feel pain over it is the anniversary. I've had classmates who've lost loved ones in 9/11, and they don't go around crying about it.
Lily, you're my friend. You know it. I think you're kind and good-hearted but I gotta say... You can't speak for everyone. What you see on the outside doesn't necessarily reflect what you feel on the inside. You don't know. Someone who lost their "other half" in 9/11 could be crying every day.

Since there's been such debate on the definition.
mourn·ingNoun/ˈmôrniNG/
1. The expression of deep sorrow for someone who has died, typically involving following certain conventions such as wearing black clothes.

Yes, they probably don't wear black every second of the day. But they could still be in deep sorrow. I'm not saying all of them but maybe some. Maybe most. We don't know. We can't speak for all of them. On days when my mum's hit me or my dad's done things to me, I feel bad but that doesn't mean I'm gonna cry and scream in school everyday. But I could still be sad. Just as they could be mourning inside as well. You don't know.

This is no better than saying "All muslims are terrorists." or "All terrorists are Muslim."

So every other current tragedy, natural disaster and all the people brutally killed in the war are getting mourned too? I don't believe that for a second. US gave a shit about Japan getting fucked a few months ago for about a week or two, then got back to watching Two and A Half Men.

I'm pretty sure they are. Not by all but by some. Not everyone mourns the 9/11. Many share your views. Me being one of them. I think the US do care. If you can group them all into one. But they do(not saying all) but they do. Maybe for the "wrong reasons" but still. Japan may have to sell US treasuries to pay for the rebuilding. Some people have shares in the japanese stock market. The prices for electronics may rise. Quite a lot come from Japan. A lot of organisations like Red Cross and Americare are helping as well.

But you're right. It's hard to sympathise with a country that is not yours or people you don't know for that matter. It applies to the 9/11 as well though.

Now, I know you're not talking about countries apart from the US. But outside of the US, the 9/11 isn't really that big. Sure, it's big. But I don't think it's bigger than any of the other tragedies. At least not where I am. We folded millions of paper cranes(you donate to fold) for the Japanese Eartquake. 9/11... Uh, we didn't really do anything.

Oh and the album, "Songs For Japan", all the money goes to the Japanese red cross. And they're all american songs. Eminem, Katy Perry and whatnot.

Not saying the US doesn't make a big deal. I can't even really say "we" as in everyone from my country. Really, it depends on the person. Truth is, most people only care about themselves and what affects them. The few people in power just expect the rest of us(you) to give a damn as well.

Becoming desensitized to death is not something to be proud of, and not something to strive for.
Again, not to offend. But some people go through enough shit in their lives that most shit just becomes non-shit but it's shitty. They just don't give a shit but they do cause it is shit but they've seen shit.

Pardon the language.

A few annoying people in Texas do not represent the entire US. When you complain that everyone is a self-centered asshole because a few people in Texas irritate you, your argument has no real basis
Everyone knows all those other tragedies exist. EVERYONE. Ask anyone whether they remember the 2004 tsunami, they'll say yes. They'll say it was a terrible, tragic event.
Honey, sorry to say but... You're as much of a hypocrite as you think deadpie is. You can't speak for everyone. Ask most of my friends about the tsunami and they'll be like "What tsunami?". Not "Oh, dear! It was a terrible, tragic event!" Not everyone gives a damn. Not everyone knows. Some do. Just as some mourn over 9/11 and some brush it aside. You specifically said this:

Any psychologist will tell you that trying to feel the pain you feel at a personal loss with all the other tragedies in the world will kill you. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't acknowledge that there are terrible things happening every day, but it's not humanely possible to mourn them all.

Uh... And any psychologist will tell you that as a human being, it is vital that you keep up with all the tragedies in the world and give a damn?

There we go again with YOU SPEAKING FOR EVERYBODY! STOP DOING THAT!
Sorry lily but I gotta go with deadpie there. You are.

People in third world countries being forced to push away grief is hardly a strength. More like a necessity, to ensure survival. It's a sad thing. They should be given the same amount of time to mourn as Americans.
Okay. I'm offended. Sorry, hun. But I am. My grandparents came from 3rd world countries. I live in a 2nd world country. Anyway, the correct term is "Less Developed Countries". But whatever, I won't give you a geography lesson ;) But seriously though... If they survived, doesn't that mean they're strong? Isn't pushing away grief, strength? If it isn't, why don't "The americans"(once again, you can't speak for all) just "get over it"?

My grandma has 15 kids. She worked while she was pregnant. My grandpa passed away. She had to care for 15 kids. She woke up at 3am to pound rubber trees and bake for her little food stall. While caring for her kids. She hardly ate because she saved all the food for her kids. 2 of them died. Then another. Now she's the only one left of all her friends, she's 81. Don't tell me that she wasn't strong. Not everyone lives through that and comes out the kind, empathetic person she is.

She could have just been miserable and cried her eyes out, mourning every lost child and man. She woulda survived. If people in "3rd world countries" just need to "get over it", why doesn't everyone? Why are some of us depressed? Why do we have eating disorders, OCD, why do we turn to drugs and alcohol? We could just commit suicide right now.

Any loss is a pain. It doesn't matter if you're from Zimbabwe, Australia, the US, UK, China, Japan, Papua New Guinea. It doesn't matter what race you are or where you come from. Grief is grief and strength is strength.

And don't tell me you were being sarcastic. Cause this is the internet. Sarcasm cannot be read.

That's not an excuse, but an explanation; a description. It was just annoying me that everything was the "US this," and the "US that."
How about everyone this, everyone that? Seeing as you're not Japanese, chinese, korean, egyptian, french, spanish, african or an alien... Well, lets just say at least he's American.

Seeing family members die isn't a good way to learn about death. Those who do learn about death the hard way get over it faster because they get hardened faster. Getting hardened towards something makes you less sensitive towards it, hence the term 'desensitisation.'
What is this crap? Sorry, lily. I hope we can still be friends. But whaddya mean seeing family members die isn't a good way to learn about death? I gotta agree with deadpie on here. Sometimes it's just strength. I didn't get through anorexia by becoming emotionless towards that voice telling me I was a useless bitch who should starve and die. This isn't death but:

After the 1st time someone called me the "Ugly Anorexic" and stuck notes in my locker asking me to "Starve, cut yourself and die" and locked me in the janitor's closet because I was a "Skinny Bitch" and a "Freakshow", I did not just "harden" and "get over it faster" during the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time.

.................I was being sarcastic. I was mocking your philosophy. This whole rant you just wrote was what I felt when I read what you said, but I responded to it with an actual argument instead of a rage fest.
Some people speak with strong emotion. Some people don't. And what you said did not sound sarcastic. He could turn around and say "I responded to it with an actual argument instead of a bunch of useless sarcasm and generalisation."

You know what? You both have your points. Deadpie just has a better way of putting it. I'm sorry, lily. I hope we're still friends. I have nothing against you, I swear. But lilys, don't talk crap about deadpie if you don't know him. I'm not being bias towards him because I was molested as well. But not everyone's "insensitive" simply because they don't scream and cry over a dead body. Maybe he is "desensitised". Maybe he isn't. Who knows. Anyway, it's not a bad thing to be. It's just a different way of coping.

9/11 happened. No one can speak for the entire population. What I said was the opinion of one. It doesn't make it right. You're both basically saying the same thing, you know? Or maybe I interpret it differently. Probably everything I said made crap sense. I acknowledge the fact I'm crap at arguments and they're both much better than me. I don't know what you think, I don't know what everyone who's lost someone in 9/11, to AIDS, murder, cancer, poverty etc feels or thinks. Probably people will interpret what I said differently as to what I meant as well.

You say tomato, I say tomato. That does not work on a computer screen...

I THINK they're both saying almost the same thing though. So this is what I THINK they both mean. Minus deadpie's passion which burns too bright for the eyes of the mild and lilys' sarcasm which just doesn't burn through the internet at all.

Virtual hugs to everyone who's ever been through crap. We've been through crap as well. Some have more crap than others. But that's okay. With crap comes flushing and with flushing comes a whole new toilet bowl! And with that comes a whole new toilet.

Life goes on.

[Azunite]

@Lilys, I don't even really think that you actually mourn the people died at 9/11 attacks. But since your childhood it was taught to you that you should morn it, and everyone around you mourned it so much that you started getting into this mourning thing, without having a specific reason for it.

[Infidelitas]

Oh yeah, you got me (AND JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T GET IT, THAT'S SARCASM).

I don't have a sarcasm detector shoved up my ass. I cannot tell what emotions you have right now, so don't assume that we do.

Hypocrite.

Ooooooh that's a good argument. Isn't it?

It doesn't matter what the underlying purpose is, if it helps people to have their feeling of grief validated. It's once a year, get over it.
So, you're saying its okay for the media to exploit the death of 3,000 people?

trolololololololololololololololololololololol!!! xD

[Magus]

@Lilys, I don't even really think that you actually mourn the people died at 9/11 attacks. But since your childhood it was taught to you that you should morn it, and everyone around you mourned it so much that you started getting into this mourning thing, without having a specific reason for it.Exactly like the story of the monkeys and the ladder.

[Iris]

I'm saying that mourning is fucking useless, it doesn't help you feel good, and people shouldn't hand pick what they want to mourn over, but instead feel bad for all things that happen equally.

It might not help you feel better, but it helps many many others. Sometimes you need to cry, with people who care about you standing there to comfort you. I agree that people shouldn't handpick. I said that in the first post I made on this thread. We should be saddened over every tragedy that happens. But if someone is unable to muster the pain of grief over every tragedy in the world, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to mourn those closer to them that die. This is the main problem I have with your argument.

What the fuck? You are really just trying to twist things up now. What in the hell does mourning have to do with being raped? And guess what? I did the exact opposite of what you said I'd do when someone lost their mom and dad right here. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1424517&postcount=10)

I was countering this argument: "Why the fuck not? What makes this tragedy so much more important than every other fucking thing that happens in this shitty fucked up world? I want to know why 9/11 is more important than those 20,000 kids dying every day of AIDS, the Japanese being hit by a fucking tsunami. I mean, that IS WAY WORSE than 9/11 and people paid attention for maybe... a week?" and bringing forth the idea that just because there are worse tragedies in the world doesn't mean you don't have the right to feel the pain of tragedies that are closer to you, or that affect you more. A tragedy is a tragedy. All tragedies should be treated with the respect they and their victims deserve. Including 9/11.

Stop trying to make me sound like some insane psycho fucker when you at the exact same time said that you could give a fuck less about Somalian children starving because they're going to die anyway.

I was being sarcastic. As someone who debates a lot and excels at sarcasm, you should have been able to realize that. In context, it's very clearly sarcastic. Out of context I sound like a psychopath. If you had read my words objectively without all this rage and hatred you're harboring against me, you would have seen that.

Also, I was fucking raped for four years. I don't know who the fuck you think you are, but I would NEVER, NEVER say that to a rape victim. I've made many friends on this site and I've had one that I talk to on a DAILY BASIS trying to help due to what has happened to her. Don't you ever fucking pull that judgmental bullshit on me.

I'm sorry that you went through that. And I mean it. I'm really not the monster you think I am.

As I said earlier, I was using your argument against you, since your belief that people shouldn't be allowed to mourn 9/11 because there are worse things out there is ridiculous. I was applying your ideas to other situations in which two terrible things happen, and one is worse than the other, yet both should be treated with sadness and respect.

Are you implying you don't do the exact same thing?

No, I don't do the same thing. I'm staying calm even though I'm angry and hurt. I don't curse you out, insult your intelligence, or poke fun of you if I can help it. I'm not here to insult you, I'm trying to show my view on mourning 9/11 and all tragedies to you, because I really care about this issue, and I think you're being disrespectful and just plain wrong in your attitude towards it. I hate debating, I hate conflict. But I just have a bad habit of fighting for what I believe in.

You saying that I'm cruel because I believe that celebrating people's lives and cherishing who they are is a bad thing and instead we should fucking mourn over people's deaths because WE WERE HURT, like as if the person that died isn't really that much of a part of their own death?

I said since mourning is for the living, not the dead, it would be cruel to deprive them of this important channel meant to release pain. I said celebrating the life of the dead is important, and that should be done as well, but mourning is an important part of moving on from a death. Death isn't all about you; it affects the people you know. Those people who knew you and cared about you should be given a chance to express their pain, as well as celebrate the life you lived.

The reason you're so black and white is because you think - "This matters, this doesn't because I say so".

The only time in this debate that I say something doesn't matter is when the point you make is completely irrelevant to what we're debating here. Other than that I see your points, but I disagree. That is what a debate is.

Nice way of editing things around to sound the way you want it to for people, because you expect people to skip my posts and read yours only so they only see the excerpts. And none of that is fucking hypocritical in the first place.

You kept telling me I was speaking for everyone, or at least large groups. I pointed out the instances where you spoke for everyone. I wasn't focusing on the words but on the generalizations. That being said, in a debate that concerns large groups of people, you have to generalize. Of course every individual is different, but we're speaking of most people.

It seems like the people I've been talking to here on VT agree more with me than you though. Sorry.

Right, because the few people you speak to on VT represent the rest of the world. (sarcasm). Mourning is a deep pain, not some sadness.

Feeling bad is quite an open thing to say, because it can mean many things, including grief and loss.

Feeling bad is a weak term. When you fail a test you feel bad. When you forget to clean the litterbox you feel bad. When someone you loved and cherished dies, most don't just 'feel bad.'

I jumped in it because I didn't want to make another 9/11 thread, which is what I ended up having to do for you and the mods.

If it were me, I wouldn't have bothered bringing up my attitude about it at all. From things people have said, I gather that there already has been many 9/11 threads. You clearly already said what you had to say then. There was a single thread to commemorate the day in TWPR. That isn't in any way disrespectful towards other tragedies. It isn't such a terrible thing, you know, to let people express their feelings about that day if they felt like they needed to. No matter how sick you might be of hearing it, it's still a tragedy.

Give me one FUCKING TIME anyone has called anyone a self centered loser about 9/11 on this site. I want the quote too with those three words put together. Also, I should be able to express my feelings about 9/11 without the fear of being called a self centered loser too, eh? Or because I disagree with you that's irrelevant.

I said "without the fear of." Besides, you can send that message without actually saying those words. Ranting about how people don't give a damn about any other tragedies except 9/11, and how dumb and stupid this thread is and, consequently, they are, sends a very clear opinion of what you think people who feel bad about 9/11 are, in your eyes.

"Stop disagreeing with my opinions" - your philosophy.

Nah, it's more like "Even when you are being hurt and insulted by someone in a little rage fest, who clearly gives no regard to anything other than the chance to insult someone who disagrees with their views regardless of the fact that those views are perfectly valid, don't let it get to you because this issue is more important than your insecurities and feelings."

How is it not the point? Isn't that pretty offensive and fucked up towards people who actually lost people in 9/11?

No. Other people remembering and mourning a tragedy that you felt personally is supportive. It's besides the point though, because the point I'm debating is that just because there are other, worse tragedies out there, it doesn't invalidate the pain of this one.

Lolwat? Now you're starting to really twist your own words.

No, you are contradicting yourself, as I will explain bellow.

I said that I hate people mourning 9/11 like as if they have lost ones under it when they live States away and they didn't. It makes me sick that they think they need to be a part of something big and life changing, so they force themselves to be affected by the event to give them a fake belief that they give a shit, but they don't, because they don't give a shit about anything else out of the US. Wait, they don't even give a shit about shit in the US either, like how about those insane Tornadoes earlier this year that destroyed thousands of cities and wiped them out? No news coverage. What about the flooding going on up north right now? Nobody certainly cares about that. What about police brutality? You can go on with the horrible things that go on in America that nobody gives a shit about too.

Feeling the pain of others as if it is your own even though you are unaffected is an amazing characteristic, and something that you said, earlier, that more people should do. People should be saddened by tragedies that have had no affect on them. That's a good thing, that they care that much about others. If they act like they give a shit but don't, that's an entirely different issue, and those who actually are mourning shouldn't be discouraged simply because you think they're faking it.

"Nobody cares about that." God. And you think I talk for everyone? The deaths from the tornado and flooding aren't nearly as bad as 9/11, which is why it hasn't been reported too much by the media. Honestly though, how do you know that no one cares? Just because the media isn't constantly portraying it, doesn't mean it isn't being acknowledged. This isn't a problem of the people, but of the media.

They, speaking for everyone again. You really gotta stop doing that. And there's many people I'm sure who don't just mourn 9/11 on 9/11.

Did you look at what I was responding to? You were speaking of the media. That's who the "they" is. And yes, it's only two days after the 9/11 anniversary, and I haven't seen a single report today about the tragedy.

Let's say you're right and people only give a shit and mourn about 9/11 on 9/11. I find that kind of stupid. Why does the date matter all because that's when the event happened? Should it have to be objectively decided what day everyone is supposed to mourn? Should that really matter?

The date matters because it's a reminder. You look at the calender and see the date is September 11, and think "that's the day my father or daughter or uncle died." This is irrelevant though.

You think I'm debating and criticizing the 9/11 mourning for no real reason but just to offend people. You literally still think that. That's why I don't want to reply after this post, because it's going nowhere and this just proves it.

I think you are a very very angry person, and this is one of the places you are channeling your anger, so you are not debating objectively; you want to feel the triumph of winning a debate to satiate that anger. I happen to be the unlucky individual who actually really cares about this general topic, and ventured out to try and pick up the remains of respect it deserves, that you crudely threw to the side.

Don't rant now about how I'm assuming things about you when I know nothing about you etc. I'm aware of that. This is the way you are coming across to me though.

9/11 happened ten years ago. Get over it.

Wow, that analogy works quite well, huh?

The Holocaust happened 70 years ago. Go tell my grandmother to get over it.

Isn't it nice how twisting around your argument works so well?

Ok, here's your fucking evidence.

Bam. (http://cindyvine.hubpages.com/hub/Nanjings-Forgotten-Massacre)

The only 'proof' that article had, besides the facts of the Nanjing massacre, is a name and a few people commenting that the Japanese are still in denial. That's not evidence.

I'm not denying that the Nanjing massacre isn't well-known today, and isn't commemorated as much as it should be (particularly about the Japanese government never having written a formal apology) but that doesn't mean that no one knows about, or cares about it. Hell, that doesn't mean that most people don't know or care about it.

Most people denied Nanking ever happened just because it's so embarrassing how fucked up humanity really can get.

Not most people. Stop being a hypocrite, telling me not to talk for people, when you are doing the same.

If humanity being fucked up is the reason, the Holocaust would have been blotted out of history. The people who don't know of the tragedy of Nanjing don't know because it's not talked about as much as it should, something which I believe should be remedied.

Why do you give a fuck so much? Are you just trying to troll me at this point, trying to make me angry to the point where I end up getting an infraction or something?

Yeah, I spend hours thoughtfully typing up replies, ignoring the laundry and loads of homework I have to do, knowing that I'll be going to sleep an hour or two later, meaning I'll get about 3 hours of sleep, since instead of doing the homework of my 16 subjects I'm spending time on this debate, just to troll you. There are many reasons why I care so much about this debate, even though it's really angering the fuck out of me. The main reason is because I care. That's it. I care about those people who want to mourn and grieve and are discouraged from doing so, and feel invalidated because of people like you. It bothers me. It's wrong. I feel obligated to stand up for those people. I did that in the tribute thread, and I would have left it there, but then you challenged me in this thread, so I felt the need to defend my position. I'm not going through being mocked and ridiculed despite the validity of my beliefs simply to troll you.

HOW THE HELL IS THAT NITPICKING? THAT MAKES NO SENSE!

I speak of majorities. There is always someone in the world who is different from others; in this case, in terms of mourning 9/11. The vast, vast majority has mourned and moved on. That doesn't mean they don't feel very sad now and then, but it's not mourning.

Then this is proof we're going nowhere and you should stop, because I probably won't until I'm too fucking annoyed by the things you say.

I'm already fucking annoyed by the things you say. If you want, we can call a truce. But if you reply to my thread bashing me as a person and everything I believe in, I will respond.

How is dealing with humanity, dealing with death, understanding the concepts of death, moving on and getting over things a bad things?

Experiencing loss isn't a healthy way to learn about it. If you learn the concept of "everyone must die, that's nature's cycle" etc., and then experience a death, it would be much easier to bear, rather than being carefree and then suddenly experiencing death out of the blue. Learning about death from the death of someone you loved can lead to an unhealthy relationship with death.

But this is irrelevant.

Ok, I'm just about sick of you using the word they and everyone all the time, unless you include who they and everyone is, unless you literally mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON. How hard is that for you to understand?

Hypocrite. I gave you a whole list of instances you generalized in my last post, when you said "people this" and "the US that." If you don't like it, don't do it.

Because most people think America is something like this:

DGlXfCZTeQI

Why do they think that? Because stupid shows more than smart these days and people are going to see the stupid, judge and bam.

A random YouTube video doesn't prove that people look at Texas when they imagine the US. It doesn't prove anything at all actually. It's just a little amusing. Do you want me to find a clip of a British or Chinese person doing sounding a little stupid? Will that make you decide that everyone in the UK and China is an idiot?

This is the dumbest thing you've said yet. Is there any good way to learn about death that's actually honest other than having someone you know die? I don't think it's any more honest then that.

Honesty =/= the best way to learn about something. Being smashed in the face by death isn't a good way to learn about it.

There's no problem with hardening up. All because you can't mourn doesn't mean you can't appreciate someone's existence. I don't mourn over people that I know that die, but instead think about the good memories with them, the person they were, shit like that. You know, not trying to make everything about me when their death is about them.

If you were a meaningful part in the dead's life, you'll feel sad that he or she is gone. That's why you mourn. For you, your pain. death affects more than just the one who died. I've said this at least ten times.

I should grow up? Says the woman the same age as me who said who doesn't give a shit about starving children because it takes effort to fix?

Copying my words four times in order to mock me is incredibly childish. My actual age has nothing to do with this. As for the second part, I was turning your argument against you and using sarcasm. These things are found in debates, which is what we're engaged in, remember?

Then why the hell would you use that sarcasm without pointing it out, because it's quite obvious that wasn't my point. And you made it sound very offensive without even noting you were kidding until I called you out on it.

I took your argument and applied it to a different situation. Let's look at the entire quote now, alright? Me:

"Again, no one denies it's existence. Recognition and mourning are entirely different things. Everyone thinks it's a horrific thing, how many people are dying through tragic means each day. Everyone. As for doing something about it, I disagree. If you are used to it, desensitized to it, resigned to it, you'd have far less motivation to try and end it. Everyone dies, why try to help those who'll just...die faster? Those people starving in Somalia, those kids stolen by Joseph Kony, they're all going to die anyway right? But if you feel the horrors of these events, refuse to accept that the world is this cruel, you'd be far more likely to go out there and try to change things, instead of just accepting that 'that's life.'"

My point completely flew over your head. If you become resigned to the fact that all people die, you are far more likely to accept horrific deaths with resignation and not the utter horror and action they deserve.

In case you didn't know, you can't actually see or hear people while they're posting on a forum, so it's sometimes hard to tell with people when they're being completely sarcastic unless you're that exact person that is posting.

If you weren't so dead set on attempting to disprove everything I say without stopping to actually read what I'm saying, you would have seen the sarcasm.

Lol ok. You're the one that was pushing the envelope with not giving a shit about people out of the US, just because it's an effort that costs money and they're 'going to die anyway'. I still think you meant all of that, no matter what you say, because if you didn't you would of said more than "I was being sarcastic".

You're literally proving my point, that at this point you don't care what I have to say, you just can't stand the thought they my argument has valid points and that I might actually -gasp- be right.

Which I can say you do the exact same thing and you can't prove either side, can you? You can only go with what majority agrees in the debate on that, huh?

No. I respond with actual arguments. You respond with mockery.

Your points are dumb and you're not actually saying anything new to prove them. It's just the same thing over and over.

I'm being repetitive because you act like you've never heard my points before, despite the fact that I've repeated them multiple times for your benefit.

I don't know how to stop debating most of the time, so sorry, but you'll have to deal with that.

I'm partially resigned to the fact that you are more closed off to any other opinion other than your own as half the people posting in the Religion thread. I'm willing to compromise, if you can prove me wrong. I even partially agree with you, in that I think other tragedies should be given more attention. But you don't see that. You see a channel through which you can vent your anger, and bash and insult.

@FaithAndTrust. I don't have the time to reply to your post. It's almost 10 pm and I haven't done a speck of the work I have to. You can't imagine how painful this is, knowing that you are completely misunderstanding and misinterpreting my argument, and I'm not being given the chance to explain it to you personally. I know I could explain, and if needed, disprove your allegations and arguments against me. I just don't have any fucking time. But one thing, don't fucking judge me. Don't judge me as a person simply because you don't understand what I'm saying.

Sigh. Laundry, here I come.

[deadpie]

if someone is unable to muster the pain of grief over every tragedy in the world, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to mourn those closer to them that die. This is the main problem I have with your argument.

My argument is that you should be self aware of all of the fucked up things that have happened in the world and be bothered by it. Bothered in any form you want to be. 9/11 isn't the only tragedy. People need to see there's worse things and I want people to know how bad this world can really be.

I was countering this argument: "Why the fuck not? What makes this tragedy so much more important than every other fucking thing that happens in this shitty fucked up world? I want to know why 9/11 is more important than those 20,000 kids dying every day of AIDS, the Japanese being hit by a fucking tsunami. I mean, that IS WAY WORSE than 9/11 and people paid attention for maybe... a week?" and bringing forth the idea that just because there are worse tragedies in the world doesn't mean you don't have the right to feel the pain of tragedies that are closer to you, or that affect you more.

It's still selfish no matter what, mourning only over things that matter to you and "effect you", even though 9/11 didn't effect every fucking person in the US, unless you mean by how much money has been wasted by the War, well, now I'm proving myself wrong. That's the Governments fault though.

A tragedy is a tragedy. All tragedies should be treated with the respect they and their victims deserve. Including 9/11.

EXACTLY what I've been trying to say. Everyone should equally feel bothered by these tragedies, mourn ALL the tragedies or none of them. It's not hard to do. You make it sound like you have to have a book of things to flip through on a daily basis where you go, "Hmm, it's 4:44 PM right now so I should be mourning this, in ten minutes i'll mourn the event scheduled for that time." No. You can mourn, feel bad, angry, bothered, all those great emotions over ALL EVENTS AT THE SAME TIME. You pile all the shit, think about it, and realize that's fucked up. That's the real world. Simple as that. If that's too much to take in, then you're not ready for the real world.

And because I'm sounding so negative, I'm not saying there isn't anything positive on this planet, because there is! I just want people to be well aware of the garbage too! All of the garbage!

I was being sarcastic. As someone who debates a lot and excels at sarcasm, you should have been able to realize that.

I couldn't sense the sarcasm at all. It flowed perfectly with everything you were saying and I took it seriously. And I would really call what I do "sarcasm". I'm more of making fun of stupidity and shoving my cynicism in people's faces, where it's unbelievably obvious that what I'm trying to say.

In context, it's very clearly sarcastic.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how it was. It seemed purely honest.

Out of context I sound like a psychopath. If you had read my words objectively without all this rage and hatred you're harboring against me, you would have seen that.

And how am I supposed to subjectively chose whether your being sarcastic or not when the flow of what you're saying pulls together perfectly? I still think you're making excuses for what you said and you weren't sarcastic at all just because I didn't see a bit of sarcasm in it.

I'm sorry that you went through that. And I mean it. I'm really not the monster you think I am.

As I said earlier, I was using your argument against you, since your belief that people shouldn't be allowed to mourn 9/11

See? You never fucking listen. People personally effected can feel bad over it. People who weren't, they shouldn't juts mourn 9/11, but every other event. This is the part where you repeat yourself saying, "bla bla it's impossible to mourn everything at once bla."

because there are worse things out there is ridiculous. I was applying your ideas to other situations in which two terrible things happen, and one is worse than the other, yet both should be treated with sadness and respect.

I still can't get my eye to view that way after your appearent "sarcasm". I'm sorry, but it sounded too honest for me to now think you have magically agreed with me that events should all be viewed on the same level.

I will admit that I say there are and has been worse events then 9/11, obviously. I just want people to recognize all those other things, because people seriously act like it's the worst thing that's ever happened and needs to be remembered more than anything else that's happened in human fucking history. Well, it's more of the media preaching that then the people now, but the people were like that more and more in the past few years and closer to the actual event.

No, I don't do the same thing. I'm staying calm even though I'm angry and hurt. I don't curse you out, insult your intelligence, or poke fun of you if I can help it.

I'd rather you curse me out, insult my unintelligent thoughts you argue against and poke as much as fun in as you want to. I mean, the Somalia thing was one thing, but when you got on the subject that I think rape victims had it coming and shit, now that's fucking pure poetry right there. Someone easily aggravated like me isn't going to take that easy.

I think everyone on VT would know by now the reason I make people tic and think is because I try to be as brutally honest as I can without getting banned. Me being easily aggravated and pissed off over small things is what keeps me going in a debate and so on.

I'm not here to insult you, I'm trying to show my view on mourning 9/11 and all tragedies to you, because I really care about this issue,

You don't care about the issue of 9/11? What? There goes your complete argument for the fifteen-billionth time. Tell me that's sarcasm please.

and I think you're being disrespectful and just plain wrong in your attitude towards it. I hate debating, I hate conflict. But I just have a bad habit of fighting for what I believe in.

Good. I respect fighting for what you believe in. You should learn to like debating and have conflict. It really makes tolerating shit you hear easier and once in a while you'll hear something that'll make you think differently.

You saying i'm disrespectful and plain wrong on 9/11 is an opinion. Deal with it.

I said since mourning is for the living, not the dead, it would be cruel to deprive them of this important channel meant to release pain.

I don't have any positive view on people mourning over someone they've lost because they won't get to talk to them anymore or have nice conversations. Why? Because I just don't get that, ok? On a very, very personal level I find it selfish and stupid, because if people got bothered that I ended up offing myself or something because they won't be able to have fifteen minute conversations with me on the phone, I just fucking think that's dumb.

Maybe I don't get human emotion. Maybe that makes my arguments complete garbage. Or maybe I know too much of human emotion, but according to you that's a good thing.

I think I'd rather be a person with plain emotions and a small bag of sulky problems then this guy with a shitload of experiences and too many emotions.

I said celebrating the life of the dead is important, and that should be done as well, but mourning is an important part of moving on from a death. Death isn't all about you; it affects the people you know.

Yeah, it effects people, but you should praise their life more than you should mourn them. Many people, including me, would find mourning to be quite offensive. Me being an atheist and death being the last event in life, I wouldn't want it spent with people crying, "Oh I wish he was here so I could hang out with him all the time. He's such a cool guy and now he's not here".

The only time in this debate that I say something doesn't matter is when the point you make is completely irrelevant to what we're debating here.

At this point we've stretched from the mourning of 9/11 to debating on whether mourning or celebrating someone is more important and such, I don't see how anything can become irrelevant at this point on. This is now becoming a debate more about human emotion than anything, which is the worst kind of debate, because one of the biggest rules of debating is try not use personal experience as proof and evidence. It won't work for religious debates, abortion, etc...


Other than that I see your points, but I disagree. That is what a debate is.

I thought you say you agree and disagree with some things I say. Now you just disagree with everything. You contradict everything you say almost every time I seem to dissect a quote.

You kept telling me I was speaking for everyone, or at least large groups. I pointed out the instances where you spoke for everyone. I wasn't focusing on the words but on the generalizations. That being said, in a debate that concerns large groups of people, you have to generalize. Of course every individual is different, but we're speaking of most people.

I'm mostly speaking of most and some people, you've constantly said everyone more often.

Right, because the few people you speak to on VT represent the rest of the world. (sarcasm). Mourning is a deep pain, not some sadness.

I'm saying on this site here on VT, people see what you say to be more full of contradictions and hypocrisy than anything I'm saying.

Feeling bad is a weak term.

Uh, you were the one that brought up that in the first place. I was saying that the term is quite flexible and can mean many things. You're pretty much agreeing what I'm saying in a sense, but also disagreeing and not getting a damn word I said.

If it were me, I wouldn't have bothered bringing up my attitude about it at all. From things people have said, I gather that there already has been many 9/11 threads. You clearly already said what you had to say then. There was a single thread to commemorate the day in TWPR. That isn't in any way disrespectful towards other tragedies. It isn't such a terrible thing, you know, to let people express their feelings about that day if they felt like they needed to No matter how sick you might be of hearing it, it's still a tragedy.

And I expressed how I felt about it. Moving the fuck on.

I said "without the fear of." Besides, you can send that message without actually saying those words. Ranting about how people don't give a damn about any other tragedies except 9/11, and how dumb and stupid this thread is and, consequently, they are, sends a very clear opinion of what you think people who feel bad about 9/11 are, in your eyes.

People who feel bad about 9/11 who weren't effected at all and don't give a shit about any other event. That's who I'm talking towards. I find those people to be hypocritical, selfish and stupid. They don't realize it, I'd like them to. I think a big part of it though is the news though, trying to make as many Americans as they can feel like a victim through a television screen. The more victims you get the more money you're getting.

So their stupidity isn't really all their fault. See? My views are actually changing somewhat while I'm debating with you. Unfortunately, you haven't done anything like that. You're not really seeing anything in any new view points. You're just as objective as I am. Plus, debating is quite objective in the first place, you have to admit. It's a battle of "I'm right, you're wrong" throwing the strongest opinions out over and over until someone just decides to give up.

Nah, it's more like "Even when you are being hurt and insulted by someone in a little rage fest, who clearly gives no regard to anything other than the chance to insult someone who disagrees with their views regardless of the fact that those views are perfectly valid

Ok, saying that you're views are valid, I want you to prove them. You asked me for "evidence" in this thread, which is pretty fucking stupid because you can't really pull out evidence on human emotion reactions towards certain things because there isn't really a statistic and poll for every living thing out there. Maybe one day. I'm quite sure you'll later in this thread tell me how my "evidence" is wrong, even though it wasn't really evidence, because like I the previous things I said, but I just tried to find the most honest and strongest thing out there I could. That's as good as an effort can get.

No. Other people remembering and mourning a tragedy that you felt personally is supportive.

Supportive? You call all these unaffected people pretending to be effected when they mourn to be supportive? They're not supporting the families and loved ones who were hurt when relatives and friends they knew died. They're calling themselves as if they were personally effected.

Like I said, it's the illusion of people wanting to feel like there part of something big and life changing, plus the TV tells them it's a good idea to do so.

Feeling the pain of others as if it is your own even though you are unaffected is an amazing characteristic, and something that you said, earlier, that more people should do.

Except that's not really what people are doing in 9/11. My point is pretty much what I said on the last quote, first paragraph. They're not feeling bad over people that were hurt - they're making themselves victims and feeling bad for themselves and the others who have done the same thing.

People should be saddened by tragedies that have had no affect on them. That's a good thing, that they care that much about others. If they act like they give a shit but don't, that's an entirely different issue, and those who actually are mourning shouldn't be discouraged simply because you think they're faking it.

Why not discourage people who fake it? It's pathetic. What's not pathetic about making yourself a victim and feeling bad for yourself, when there's people out there that have actually been effected? It's rude, cruel, fucking offensive.

"Nobody cares about that."

Ok, I mistakenly spoke for everyone in a sense when I meant to say most people who weren't effected. You got me there on that. At least I'll actually catch myself on my shit that I say wrong and admit to it. I haven't seen you ever do anything like that.

Probably because you think your views are so crystal clear and indestructible that you believe even when you're wrong, lying and calling things you said "sarcasm" will cover the shit up and keep it all indestructible.


God. And you think I talk for everyone? The deaths from the tornado and flooding aren't nearly as bad as 9/11,

Are you fucking kidding me? It's going to take a longer time for people to recover from those events then it took for 9/11. Towns are forced to just figure it out, how to fix everything up. The government doesn't give a shit. When 9/11 happened it got so much news coverage that of course everything was going to be cleaned and fixed up as soon as possible.

Even if the death toll is less, it causes wore wide spread damage that can take up to a DECADE or more to fix. Natural disasters are way worse than a terrorist attack. Why? Because some natural disasters you can't detect, most of the time it's quite fucking hard to evacuate everyone from a Tsunami or Earthquake and/or expect the Tsunami or Earthquake to magically go away.

With terrorism you can actually stop it, pay attention, predict, and so on.

Just because the media isn't constantly portraying it, doesn't mean it isn't being acknowledged. This isn't a problem of the people, but of the media.

Finally you blame the media. I don't know if you realize this though, but the media are people too, meaning there is people who are the problem whether you like it or not. It should be acknowledged more. You want to know why most news casts don't want to? Because they don't want to actually say it's possible global warming is a fact and it's getting fucking worse every year.


Did you look at what I was responding to? You were speaking of the media. That's who the "they" is. And yes, it's only two days after the 9/11 anniversary, and I haven't seen a single report today about the tragedy.

Heh, well I have here in Texas. This is the part where you say "evidence" and make me take pictures of my television of scheduled memorial episode things or whatever you call them.

The date matters because it's a reminder. You look at the calender and see the date is September 11, and think "that's the day my father or daughter or uncle died." This is irrelevant though.

Wait, so it matters, but it's also irrelevant at the same time? What does that even mean?

And I don't think every single person is going to look at a calender and say, "Oh, that's they day my relative or friend died", because not everyone was effected.

I think you are a very very angry person, and this is one of the places you are channeling your anger, so you are not debating objectively[

Earlier you said I was debating objectively, now I'm not. Which is it? And yes, I am a very angry person. Angry people have loud voices and you can hear that better than others. Not that I like being angry at all, I don't.

you want to feel the triumph of winning a debate to satiate that anger.

Nah. One little thread on VT in a Debate Board isn't going to change my anger , make it grow or go down any less. I'll always be the same and/or get worse, particularly get worse as my hatred for things grows.

I happen to be the unlucky individual who actually really cares about this general topic

You think I don't fucking care? Then why have I been making some of my longest posts on this site a debate with you? Of course I care! If I didn't care I wouldn't have made this thread and so on.

The Holocaust happened 70 years ago. Go tell my grandmother to get over it.

Uh, I was using your analogy against you, which was pure sarcasm and making fun of you obviously. And I've already mentioned a few times that the Holocaust should also be thought of still to this date to on the same level as all other events.

By the way, I would never have any prejudice or hatred against Jews. One of the friends I've lived in and out with for the past two years is Jewish and he has people in his family who were effected by it. Actually, I find Judaism to be the religion I tolerate more than any others. I have not much against it.


The only 'proof' that article had, besides the facts of the Nanjing massacre, is a name and a few people commenting that the Japanese are still in denial. That's not evidence.

I'm sorry that there's not a readymade statistic and poll to prove that most Americans are uninformed about the event. This is a theory of mine I've come up with because the majority of people I've met have not heard of the event, even online. I wasn't taught it in school and I haven't read it in my College history books either. The only reason I know about it is due to my obsessive research I would do when I was really young trying to read about horrible things that have happened in this world. I'm quite sure I myself wouldn't know about it if I didn't do so, because it's not part of the education curriculum here.

Why? Because, rape is a very tough subject to talk for more than a paragraph over in front of a class room. Rape is still a big taboo thing for people to face. People are still being called whores, sluts, told they deserved it, etc. There's a huge prejudice and hatred against the victims that still stands today, including the fact people also find the subject to be uncomfortable to talk about. So yeah, that's probably the reason it isn't talked about here or from anyone else that hasn't heard about that I've brought it up to.

I'm not denying that the Nanjing massacre isn't well-known today, and isn't commemorated as much as it should be (particularly about the Japanese government never having written a formal apology) but that doesn't mean that no one knows about, or cares about it. Hell, that doesn't mean that most people don't know or care about it.

My guess is the majority don't. The people of Japan would know, many in denial, then out of Japan, my guess is 30 percent or less. That's not supported by facts or anything, I'm just basing that off personal views and what I know. Don't take that as evidence, because it's not.

Not most people. Stop being a hypocrite, telling me not to talk for people, when you are doing the same.

You just don't get it. There's a different between saying some, most, many, few then saying all, everyone, nobody, they and them.

If humanity being fucked up is the reason, the Holocaust would have been blotted out of history. The people who don't know of the tragedy of Nanjing don't know because it's not talked about as much as it should, something which I believe should be remedied.

Good to know you agree with me that it should be taught and recognized. From what I get, you also agree with me it should be mourned, remembered, and thought about the same as 9/11, The Holocaust, and all other events, right? Seems like we're starting to get on some sort of agreement eh?


Uh oh! You might actually be starting to view things differently! Here comes the part where you fight back so this debate can go on as long as possible!


Yeah, I spend hours thoughtfully typing up replies, ignoring the laundry and loads of homework I have to do, knowing that I'll be going to sleep an hour or two later, meaning I'll get about 3 hours of sleep, since instead of doing the homework of my 16 subjects I'm spending time on this debate, just to troll you.

How am I supposed to know? I'm an easy person to troll, because I'm overly emotional and easily angered. Yeah, I'm sorry that you're having to ignore laundry and homework to reply to me, but that's your fucking choice isn't it? Just like it is mine too. You think I don't have things to do either? I'm a seventeen year old having to take difficult college classes. I've got music to listen to, friends to chill with, tacos to eat, all that bullshit. I'm debating right here right now because it kills the time I have when I'm not doing all of that. Because I don't sleep much, it's not a big deal to me. Sorry, but you can't really expect me to come down from a debate unless I suddenly go under kidney failure sometime soon. :P


There are many reasons why I care so much about this debate, even though it's really angering the fuck out of me. The main reason is because I care. That's it. I care about those people who want to mourn and grieve and are discouraged from doing so, and feel invalidated because of people like you.

I'm angry over certain types of those people who are mourning, not all of them.

It bothers me. It's wrong. I feel obligated to stand up for those people. I did that in the tribute thread, and I would have left it there, but then you challenged me in this thread, so I felt the need to defend my position. I'm not going through being mocked and ridiculed despite the validity of my beliefs simply to troll you.[/qote]

I respect all of this! Now all you need to do is flex yourself into debating other discussions. Doesn't this debate here, sort of make you feel like you can debate better now? I'm not saying I'm a challenging person, because there's people on VT waaaaay better at phrasing things better then I am, but it's fun to exercise your brain and all of that shit, even if you are angry.

[QUOTE=Lilys;1444102]I speak of majorities. There is always someone in the world who is different from others; in this case, in terms of mourning 9/11. The vast, vast majority has mourned and moved on. That doesn't mean they don't feel very sad now and then, but it's not mourning.

Can you prove to me the majority has moved on? And that varies from location in my opinion.

I'm already fucking annoyed by the things you say. If you want, we can call a truce.

Oh please. Is that your way of saying you give up while trying to make me feel bad for you? I'm not going to feel bad.


But if you reply to my thread bashing me as a person and everything I believe in, I will respond.

You didn't start that 9/11 thread. You didn't start this thread. Whatevs though. You're funny now.

Experiencing loss isn't a healthy way to learn about it. If you learn the concept of "everyone must die, that's nature's cycle" etc., and then experience a death, it would be much easier to bear, rather than being carefree and then suddenly experiencing death out of the blue.

Lol. I think most people know that everyone on this planet will eventually die. I would hope to think many people would understand the basic concepts of death, whether they believe or not or whether they fear death or not.

Learning about death from the death of someone you loved can lead to an unhealthy relationship with death.

Nah, really? Any death close to you can be effective and unhealthy. And are most people at a healthy relationship with death? I don't really know about that one there.

But this is irrelevant.

Human emotion, mourning, all of this is relevant. You're saying that because you're just not thinking outside the box, thinking how it could be relevant. It's all connected in a way.

Hypocrite. I gave you a whole list of instances you generalized in my last post, when you said "people this" and "the US that." If you don't like it, don't do it.

Those quotes were pulled apart from parts of the sentence in a creative manipulative way to make people think I'm saying what you think I'm saying, because you don't expect people to actually the walls of text.

Oh hell, I really hope people aren't actually reading these boring walls of texts we're posting here. And you thought WE had sleeping problems, no time to do the laundry and such.

A random YouTube video doesn't prove that people look at Texas when they imagine the US.

It's quite funny to watch though, isn't it? Isn't it funny how dumb those fucking idiots are? Of course, there's probably many idiots like that you can find in various countries too, but from experience I'm personally going to see the people here quite stupid.

It doesn't prove anything at all actually. It's just a little amusing. Do you want me to find a clip of a British or Chinese person doing sounding a little stupid? Will that make you decide that everyone in the UK and China is an idiot?

That's sort of what I just said, but people of China and Europe are probably more intelligent then your typical American. China especially. You do know how strict those schools are and all that shit? You're forced to be a genius pretty much. Holy fuck would my head explode. I have to admit, I'm quite stupid and can only handle so much of being forced into difficult reading text books nonstop.

Honesty =/= the best way to learn about something. Being smashed in the face by death isn't a good way to learn about it.

Death isn't a person and I don't think he would smash your face in if he was alive. And of course honesty is one of the best ways to learn something. Honesty, truth, and facts. Honesty because the opposite of that is lying. Are you saying lying works better?

If you were a meaningful part in the dead's life, you'll feel sad that he or she is gone. That's why you mourn. For you, your pain. death affects more than just the one who died. I've said this at least ten times.

Meaningful is the wrong word. I would say 'close to'. Being close to can mean many things, I know, we've elaborated on that. Of course you'll feel a sadness they're gone, but a good way of dealing and coping with that is to remember the person for who they were, the memories with them, shit like that. It's a better way to deal with the death of people you're close to, rather then wallowing in complete depression for years over the loss of someone, because you could never imagine life without them.

Copying my words four times in order to mock me is incredibly childish. My actual age has nothing to do with this.

Well, you were calling me immature and such, yet we're the same age so who are you to say who is mature and who isn't? Most people believe maturity doesn't happen until you grow loads older.

Personally, I don't believe in a such thing as maturity.


I took your argument and applied it to a different situation. Let's look at the entire quote now, alright? Me:

"Again, no one denies it's existence. Recognition and mourning are entirely different things. Everyone thinks it's a horrific thing, how many people are dying through tragic means each day. Everyone. As for doing something about it, I disagree. If you are used to it, desensitized to it, resigned to it, you'd have far less motivation to try and end it. Everyone dies, why try to help those who'll just...die faster? Those people starving in Somalia, those kids stolen by Joseph Kony, they're all going to die anyway right? But if you feel the horrors of these events, refuse to accept that the world is this cruel, you'd be far more likely to go out there and try to change things, instead of just accepting that 'that's life.'"

My point completely flew over your head. If you become resigned to the fact that all people die, you are far more likely to accept horrific deaths with resignation and not the utter horror and action they deserve.

You saying I need to horrified and emotionally hurt as much as possible? Fuck that. I'd rather die then have to force myself to feel depressed and sad about every person I know that's died.

If you weren't so dead set on attempting to disprove everything I say without stopping to actually read what I'm saying, you would have seen the sarcasm.

I could say the same thing to you. This is just proof that we're going to have a never ending debate until someone just gives up due to too many head aches.

You're literally proving my point/quote]

I'm literally not proving you're point and you're saying absolutely nothing!

[QUOTE=Lilys;1444102]that at this point you don't care what I have to say

If I didn't care what you had to say I wouldn't be debating.

you just can't stand the thought they my argument has valid points

Subjective and that's an opinion.

and that I might actually -gasp- be right.

GASP! Still subjective and more opinions, which is exactly what this thread is about! There is no right or wrong, is there? It's just whatever sounds the best to most of the other people, or when someone gives up.

I'm not thinking all your views are right. Of course it does seem that you have come to agree with some things I have said and/or had already agreed, but I certainly don't think everything you say is right, which is why I'm debating.

[QUOTE=Lilys;1444102]No. I respond with actual arguments. You respond with mockery.

Who are you to say your points are more actual, factual and true than mine? Who would I be to say mine are more actual, factual and true? I'm not completely doing that, because I've called myself out a few times now. You literally have an objective brick heavy view that can not be chipped away at. There doesn't seem like a point in debating you because it won't go anywhere and you will always think you're right, even when you know you're wrong.

Then why the hell do I keep debating? Dammit, Tim, you really need to stop!

I'm being repetitive because you act like you've never heard my points before, despite the fact that I've repeated them multiple times for your benefit.

How do you know I haven't heard the points before? I've debated them with a few other people. I know your side of view. I see it and I get it. I just disagree with parts of it. Is that really hard for you to understand? :yawn:


I'm partially resigned to the fact that you are more closed off to any other opinion other than your own as half the people posting in the Religion thread.

Cool. I have my own beliefs, I preach them and debate. The only difference here is that in the Religion thread you can actually pull out evidence/proof. Plus, you haven't stopped debating me (I now applause you for that). In the religion thread nobody has gotten me to a stopping point. Hell, I've brought members of VT so much to a stopping point that they've become atheists! Isn't that fucking crazy?

I don't know whether to feel good or ashamed over that, because I take their faith away from them, but it's whatever. That's what debates are for, right? Proving and disproving?

I'm willing to compromise, if you can prove me wrong.

I is has no's proof's. Sorry, all I have is my strongest and lefty teenage opinions. I try to make my opinions more challenging and sound better, but that's not proof. It's just saying who sounds better than who.

I even partially agree with you, in that I think other tragedies should be given more attention. But you don't see that. You see a channel through which you can vent your anger, and bash and insult.

Uh, that made no sense whatsoever. I believe certain tragedies should be given more attention to the point where all tragedies are equally known, understood, and all that great stuff. I personally believe that view. I'm not pretending to think that. That would make this debate completely pointless. Well, it is sort of pointless because it's going nowhere, but you know what I mean.

My anger, bashing and insulting doesn't have to do with the view I just stated above, thus why I said you make no sense.


Damn. My fingers kind of hurt. I'm going to listen to some crazy ass free jazz now.


Also guys, if you're on my side, don't go out of your way trying to neg rep Lilys to oblivion, even if some of the things she says are bonkers. She's keeping up a very long debate that most people can't take.

[Amaryllis]

Why would someone neg rep her for having an opinion? I think she's pretty damn good to be keeping up with deadpie and not agreeing with him.

I'm not judging you, lily. I'm judging your posts. Yes, maybe I misread it. But I'm pretty sure I didn't misread all the "everyone"s you used. And no. It's not most normal people. I don't even know what normal is. But most people really don't give a damn. And I don't disagree with everything you say. If I did, I would have quoted every one of your paragraphs. I'm not being a bitch here. You've been one of the nicest people on earth to me. I think you're pretty damn smart and definitely kind and caring.

All I'm doing is removing your username from my head(for this debate) and reading your post as it is. I don't think neither you nor deadpie are cruel hearted hypocritical assholes. Things just don't come out right on the Internet. I'm so sorry I offended you, lilys.

You're really good to be holding your own against deadpie. Cause he's pretty damn good. I disagree with some of the things you say. Not all. I don't think deadpie's just a ball of anger(but then again how would I know?), a ball of frustration with a brain, maybe. 9/11 was a terrible thing. We're not saying it's more minor than all the other tragedies. This world's full of crap. I know. You said thinking this way will make People less likely to do something about it. Not really. Theres a difference between being realistic and being an ass.

Thank god you guys aren't the leaders of Germany and the US

[Unown]

wtf... get over it. people neat to recover.

[Eagle1]

Ok, because moderators really get sort of angry and pissed off when your opinions have points against others, that means you have to take it to another thread so you don't get an infraction. SO, apparently I'm going to just make a big fat fucking 9/11 debate which is what they want. Apparently we can't just have one big shit thread to pile it all in.

--------------------------



I am sorry but NO it is not right to come into a tribute thread and start voicing your opinions about 9/11/01. It is a TRIBUTE not a debate you are desecrating the memories of the people that died, 2977 Americans died that day thats mothers, fathers, sisters, and or brothers that died in an UNPROVOKED attack including 411 First responders. And since you can't seem to calculate that that is MORE than the number that died at pearl harbor. My point is have some respect for their lives because of people like them you get to blab you opinions on the internet.

Another note those other incident you listed I will only point out this noone saw 9/11/01 coming and as far as the nuking of japan they brought that on themselves, they attacked us, the nukes were the only way that they would have ever given up without us loosing THOUSANDS more troops.

NOTE: Hope that all makes some sense I have been up for over 2 days forgive the misspellings and rambling

[deadpie]

I am sorry but NO it is not right to come into a tribute thread and start voicing your opinions about 9/11/01.

Problem one with your post.

It is a TRIBUTE not a debate you are desecrating the memories of the people that died

More so the people who make themselves victims who weren't effected at all. What I mean is people who didn't lose anyone and weren't even living in NY at the time, but act like they lost an entire family in it.

And too bad that I decided to voice my opinion in a tribute thread. It was already off topic by other people, which those posts were deleted.

And since you can't seem to calculate that that is MORE than the number that died at pearl harbor.

So that makes it more important than Pearl Harbor or any event that had more people die in it? Well, woopty doo. There's your second problem. All tragedies should be mourned, known and thought over at the same level, no matter how many people died.

noone saw 9/11/01 coming

Are you saying it still couldn't of been stopped no matter what? That there couldn't of been precautions to stop it? Many natural disasters are unpredictable, in terms of knowing when it's going to happen and/or the damage.

and as far as the nuking of japan they brought that on themselves, they attacked us

Yes, the innocent people living in Japan brought it upon themselves, including all of those children (sarcasm). There's your third and biggest problem. Also, are you saying killing over 200,000 people justifies the fact that they killed 2,402 people? In any instance of war, genocide, attacks, killings, etc, there's a big level of hypocrisy and stupidity. All wars are fucking dumb. Curruption is fucking dumb. Killing people that kill to show that killing people is dumb. Sure, what Japan did to us was dumb, but what we did was dumb too.

I guess what's ironic in what I'm saying right now is I used to be misanthropic, but changed to be sort of a philanthropist, but my negativity for certain humans still bothers me, which has kind of stopped me from becoming more of a philanthropist. Maybe, maybe one day when I'm happier I'll accept really annoying dumb people like Michelle Bachmann, move on, and become a pure philanthropist. I don't know. Now I'm going way off fucking topic.

the nukes were the only way that they would have ever given up without us loosing THOUSANDS more troops.

I'm sure there's alternatives that could of worked better.

I bet you're one of those people who were also laughing when parts of Japan were recently destroyed by the tsunami, earthquake, and radiation, saying it's justified still. People like you make me sick.

Also, thanks for the negative reputation that says "anti american much faggot".

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6190/antiamerican.png

Typical teenage conservative homophobe not knowing anything about anything, ignoring most of my debate, and probably has a strong hatred for liberals while also saying cops are the best people to trust.

Warning rant comming****
ok while yes their are some bad cops people in the US are soo freaking annoying everyone (mostly librels) think all cops MUST be bad NEWS FLASH*** NOT TRUE to be honest yes I trust the police. oh and whoever created that account obviously has a problem with the police its just like a PI or a journalist during election season you ask them to find dirt and they will WHAT DO YOU EXPECT

Dammit. I knew I was right! What's worse is he can't even spell the word liberal correctly and yet that's who he is arguing against.

This forum is just too much fun.

[Genghis Khan]

Hope that all makes some sense

It doesn't.

[Amaryllis]

I am sorry but NO it is not right to come into a tribute thread and start voicing your opinions about 9/11/01. It is a TRIBUTE not a debate you are desecrating the memories of the people that died, 2977 Americans died that day thats mothers, fathers, sisters, and or brothers that died in an UNPROVOKED attack including 411 First responders. And since you can't seem to calculate that that is MORE than the number that died at pearl harbor. My point is have some respect for their lives because of people like them you get to blab you opinions on the internet.

Another note those other incident you listed I will only point out this noone saw 9/11/01 coming and as far as the nuking of japan they brought that on themselves, they attacked us, the nukes were the only way that they would have ever given up without us loosing THOUSANDS more troops.

NOTE: Hope that all makes some sense I have been up for over 2 days forgive the misspellings and rambling

The people of Hiroshima did nothing. They killed babies, children, women, men, animals, trees, buildings. Wrong place. Wrong time. Same as the people who died in the 9/11.

If you threw a gigantic flower pot over the railing and hit someone in the head and killed them, would you blame the person for standing underneath?

[Magus]

Another note those other incident you listed I will only point out this noone saw 9/11/01 coming and as far as the nuking of japan they brought that on themselves, they attacked us, the nukes were the only way that they would have ever given up without us loosing THOUSANDS more troops.

Oh no. America did brought this on itself. They attacked innocent people, food supply storage, and medical facilities for no godamn reason. In Sudan and Afghanistan.

Osama was a friend of America. They were good allies during the Mujaheeden era. What happened is America backstabbed Osama.

To prove that America is vulnerable. Osama struck America, as a retaliation. Also, American authorities knew they will have explosions on their own soil. Just not airplane hijacking and blasting them into buildings, or maybe they did.

[Iris]

My argument is that you should be self aware of all of the fucked up things that have happened in the world and be bothered by it. Bothered in any form you want to be. 9/11 isn't the only tragedy. People need to see there's worse things and I want people to know how bad this world can really be.

I agree. Be bothered, be hurt, be shocked, be disgusted, be horrified. But don't hurt or ridicule those mourning/remembering tragedies because you assume they only care about that tragedy in particular, and don't downgrade one tragedy because your annoyed about how people react to it. It is still a tragedy.

You can clearly see I'm aware of the tragedies the world has faced, yet I still posted in the tribute thread. Simply because there are worse tragedies, doesn't mean that 9/11 isn't one. I swear if you post a thread about any other tragedy, that you feel is forgotten or otherwise, I would comment on it as well. I treat all tragedies with respect.

It's still selfish no matter what, mourning only over things that matter to you and "effect you", even though 9/11 didn't effect every fucking person in the US, unless you mean by how much money has been wasted by the War, well, now I'm proving myself wrong. That's the Governments fault though.

I've continuously, throughout this entire debate, had a problem with this statement: "It's still selfish no matter what, mourning only over things that matter to you and "effect you", even though 9/11 didn't effect every fucking person in the US", because it seems contradictory. Do you want people to feel every tragedy as if it were their own, affected or not? You keep switching back and forth between that and "people are making a big deal out of tragedies that didn't affect them.

EXACTLY what I've been trying to say. Everyone should equally feel bothered by these tragedies, mourn ALL the tragedies or none of them. It's not hard to do. You make it sound like you have to have a book of things to flip through on a daily basis where you go, "Hmm, it's 4:44 PM right now so I should be mourning this, in ten minutes i'll mourn the event scheduled for that time." No. You can mourn, feel bad, angry, bothered, all those great emotions over ALL EVENTS AT THE SAME TIME. You pile all the shit, think about it, and realize that's fucked up. That's the real world. Simple as that. If that's too much to take in, then you're not ready for the real world. And because I'm sounding so negative, I'm not saying there isn't anything positive on this planet, because there is! I just want people to be well aware of the garbage too! All of the garbage!

I agree! I've agreed with like 98% of what you just said, and have agreed on that this entire time. The only part I disagree with is that it must be all or nothing. Most people know the world is a shitty place. That's how religion became so popular. Trying to understand why the world is such a shitty place spawned the ideas of "god has a plan" and "only god can understand this" and other crap. But that doesn't take away from people's right to mourn. You want people to chose between mourning all and mourning none. Does that mean that losing a loved one should not be allowed to be mourned because that person doesn't know of the hundreds of Jewish refugees who were turned away from the US and sent back to Nazi infested Europe, where they were systematically murdered? I bet most people don't know most tragedies, and that some are actively trying not to know, but that doesn't take away from their right to mourn.

And because I'm sounding so negative, I'm not saying there isn't anything positive on this planet, because there is! I just want people to be well aware of the garbage too! All of the garbage!

That's fair. But 9/11 is a terrible thing too. It's part of the garbage you want everyone to be aware of. Of course people should take notice of tragedies outside their borders as well, but that doesn't take away their right to mourn and remember 9/11.

I couldn't sense the sarcasm at all. It flowed perfectly with everything you were saying and I took it seriously. And I would really call what I do "sarcasm". I'm more of making fun of stupidity and shoving my cynicism in people's faces, where it's unbelievably obvious that what I'm trying to say.

You didn't see the sarcasm because you were blind to what I really meant in favor of what you thought I meant. My stance on all these topics hasn't changed throughout this entire debate. I told you in the beginning that the fundamental idea that we are discussing, whether all tragedies should be remembered equally, is something we are in agreement with. But you were angry, and you didn't really read what I was saying. You read what you wanted to read. Now that you are not shouting through my computer screen I assume you've mellowed out a bit, and you are seeing my arguments for what they really are, and realizing we are practically in agreement.

And how am I supposed to subjectively chose whether your being sarcastic or not when the flow of what you're saying pulls together perfectly? I still think you're making excuses for what you said and you weren't sarcastic at all just because I didn't see a bit of sarcasm in it.

Scratch that, you're still reading what you want to read, it seems. If I say that it's not good to be desensitized because then tragic events don't affect you as much and don't form a horror-filled response, it doesn't make logical sense that I would say "who cares if they die." Instead, my saying the latter quote is proving my earlier quote.

You said earlier that I made you look like a psychopath by the way I quoted. You are doing the same thing to me. And you cling to it, because who would be on the same side as a psychopath? If you look at my words objectively, without this angry bias, you'll see what I meant.

See? You never fucking listen. People personally effected can feel bad over it. People who weren't, they shouldn't juts mourn 9/11, but every other event. This is the part where you repeat yourself saying, "bla bla it's impossible to mourn everything at once bla."

I do fucking listen. And then I proceed to disagree.

Remembering every single tragedy is different from recognizing that the world can be a cruel place, which seems to be your stance now, from what you said earlier in your post.

I still can't get my eye to view that way after your appearent "sarcasm". I'm sorry, but it sounded too honest for me to now think you have magically agreed with me that events should all be viewed on the same level.

Then you are blind. I don't think I've ever said (/typed) something so sarcastic in my entire life. I ask for my parents to send money to kids in third world countries instead of fucking birthday presents. I don't want to kill them all out. I can't believe I even have to say this.

I will admit that I say there are and has been worse events then 9/11, obviously. I just want people to recognize all those other things, because people seriously act like it's the worst thing that's ever happened and needs to be remembered more than anything else that's happened in human fucking history. Well, it's more of the media preaching that then the people now, but the people were like that more and more in the past few years and closer to the actual event.

Blame the media, not the people. Leave the people alone. Let them commemorate in peace.

I'd rather you curse me out, insult my unintelligent thoughts you argue against and poke as much as fun in as you want to. I mean, the Somalia thing was one thing, but when you got on the subject that I think rape victims had it coming and shit, now that's fucking pure poetry right there. Someone easily aggravated like me isn't going to take that easy.

The reason I don't insult you etc. is because I'm not here to fight with you, but to debate with you. The comment on rape was part of my argument, which is the only reason I included it. I didn't put it there to aggravate you.

I think everyone on VT would know by now the reason I make people tic and think is because I try to be as brutally honest as I can without getting banned. Me being easily aggravated and pissed off over small things is what keeps me going in a debate and so on.

Yeah well the problem with that is that if you are literally fueled by rage, there is no way you can debate objectively and be willing to consider the other person's view. I'm angry, but I dissociate from that and act like you aren't annoying the fuck out of me every time you misinterpret and twist my words, which is ridiculously often.

You don't care about the issue of 9/11? What? There goes your complete argument for the fifteen-billionth time. Tell me that's sarcasm please.

You got "I don't care about 9/11" from this: "I'm not here to insult you, I'm trying to show my view on mourning 9/11 and all tragedies to you, because I really care about this issue".

Wow. Now that's an accomplishment.

Good. I respect fighting for what you believe in. You should learn to like debating and have conflict. It really makes tolerating shit you hear easier and once in a while you'll hear something that'll make you think differently.

I don't like debating because I have been traumatized by it, which is something I'm not very comfortable talking about. What I'm doing now is what my psychologist considers "self-destructive behavior."

You saying i'm disrespectful and plain wrong on 9/11 is an opinion. Deal with it.

...I have been 'dealing with it' for the past few pages of this thread, in case you haven't noticed.

I don't have any positive view on people mourning over someone they've lost because they won't get to talk to them anymore or have nice conversations. Why? Because I just don't get that, ok? On a very, very personal level I find it selfish and stupid, because if people got bothered that I ended up offing myself or something because they won't be able to have fifteen minute conversations with me on the phone, I just fucking think that's dumb.

Well, as you never cease to remind me, I'm speaking of the majority. Most people. You may treat mourning differently. That's fine. But if others feel better by mourning, you don't have the right to take that away from them, no matter how dumb you think it is.

Maybe I don't get human emotion. Maybe that makes my arguments complete garbage. Or maybe I know too much of human emotion, but according to you that's a good thing.

I think you have a distorted view of emotions because of the bad experiences you've gone through.

Yeah, it effects people, but you should praise their life more than you should mourn them. Many people, including me, would find mourning to be quite offensive. Me being an atheist and death being the last event in life, I wouldn't want it spent with people crying, "Oh I wish he was here so I could hang out with him all the time. He's such a cool guy and now he's not here".

Well then tell your friends that's what you want. I don't think it's fair, but it's your life/death, do what you want. But don't try to apply or impose this on others.

At this point we've stretched from the mourning of 9/11 to debating on whether mourning or celebrating someone is more important and such, I don't see how anything can become irrelevant at this point on. This is now becoming a debate more about human emotion than anything, which is the worst kind of debate, because one of the biggest rules of debating is try not use personal experience as proof and evidence. It won't work for religious debates, abortion, etc...

I agree. I really want to stay on topic because I don't have the time right now to argue about human emotions, which in itself is an extensive topic. If not for this debate I wouldn't be on VT at all; I'd be sleeping like I should be.

And yeah this debate is definitely not a an example of a good debate. Way too many emotions involved.

I thought you say you agree and disagree with some things I say. Now you just disagree with everything. You contradict everything you say almost every time I seem to dissect a quote.

Well, first off, you bring in lots of topics that are weakly related to this one, and it turns into a whole new debate (like this debate on emotions we somehow began). Second, you misinterpret my words more than half the time. I disagree with your interpretation, and explain to you what I actually meant. It only looks like I'm disagreeing.

I'm mostly speaking of most and some people, you've constantly said everyone more often.

I assume that it's implied that no idea applies to everyone, since that's not possible. I figure it's so obvious, that other people realize that too.

I'm saying on this site here on VT, people see what you say to be more full of contradictions and hypocrisy than anything I'm saying.

I believe that it's possible more people on VT agree with you than with me. But if anyone believes my argument has more contradictions and hypocrisy than yours, then they clearly are not understanding me. I take painstaking care to ensure that I don't do that.

People who feel bad about 9/11 who weren't effected at all and don't give a shit about any other event. That's who I'm talking towards. I find those people to be hypocritical, selfish and stupid. They don't realize it, I'd like them to. I think a big part of it though is the news though, trying to make as many Americans as they can feel like a victim through a television screen. The more victims you get the more money you're getting.

If someone gives a shit about only American tragedies-as in, if you tell them there are people starving in Somalia and they say "I don't care," then we dislike the same people. But in the tribute thread, not only did you have no way of knowing if we see the world that way, you also went on a rant that didn't clearly state this concept, instead opting for "everyone makes a big deal out of this when there are worse things." I made a big deal out of it, posting those pictures, and I know very well there are worse things. I'm sure most of the other people who commented knew that too.

So their stupidity isn't really all their fault. See? My views are actually changing somewhat while I'm debating with you. Unfortunately, you haven't done anything like that. You're not really seeing anything in any new view points. You're just as objective as I am. Plus, debating is quite objective in the first place, you have to admit. It's a battle of "I'm right, you're wrong" throwing the strongest opinions out over and over until someone just decides to give up.

Most of my views haven't changed because they are mostly in agreement with yours, so unless you disprove yourself, you can't disprove me. I see yours views, how you think mourning is stupid, how you think others view the US, and a whole bunch of other topics you brought up, and I stuck to my views because after spending time thinking them through, I came to the conclusion that they were right. I won't apologize because you've failed to prove me wrong in certain areas. This isn't a debate of "I'm right, your wrong" or else I wouldn't be here. I hate debating. I don't do this for fun. I've come so close to just not bothering to reply so many times because I felt it's just not worth the stress.

Ok, saying that you're views are valid, I want you to prove them. You asked me for "evidence" in this thread, which is pretty fucking stupid because you can't really pull out evidence on human emotion reactions towards certain things because there isn't really a statistic and poll for every living thing out there. Maybe one day. I'm quite sure you'll later in this thread tell me how my "evidence" is wrong, even though it wasn't really evidence, because like I the previous things I said, but I just tried to find the most honest and strongest thing out there I could. That's as good as an effort can get.

The only times I asked for evidence was when you argued that most of the world thinks of Texas when they imagine the US, and when you argued that most people in the world don't know/care about the massacre in Nanjing. Those are two perfectly reasonable places to ask for evidence. I'm not denying the effort you put in trying to find proofs.

Supportive? You call all these unaffected people pretending to be effected when they mourn to be supportive? They're not supporting the families and loved ones who were hurt when relatives and friends they knew died. They're calling themselves as if they were personally effected.

Maybe some people do that here or there. But it is possible to be both supportive and unaffected by the tragedy, without being fake. For example, on the tribute thread there were people from countries like the UK who clearly were unaffected by 9/11 but still sent out their support to those who might need it, and took part in commemorating 9/11. Do you think they were all lying?

Except that's not really what people are doing in 9/11. My point is pretty much what I said on the last quote, first paragraph. They're not feeling bad over people that were hurt - they're making themselves victims and feeling bad for themselves and the others who have done the same thing.

That's a pretty big assumption, saying that people personally unaffected are selfishly making themselves victims. I won't discount the idea that there might be some people who do this, but to say that most people are just being selfish is really pushing it.

Why not discourage people who fake it? It's pathetic. What's not pathetic about making yourself a victim and feeling bad for yourself, when there's people out there that have actually been effected? It's rude, cruel, fucking offensive.

But how can you know if someone is or isn't? Maybe there are some people who are doing this, fine. But respect the people who aren't doing this, and are commemorating the victims and the tragedy. Don't tell them they're annoying fakes making a big deal out of nothing.

Are you fucking kidding me? It's going to take a longer time for people to recover from those events then it took for 9/11. Towns are forced to just figure it out, how to fix everything up. The government doesn't give a shit. When 9/11 happened it got so much news coverage that of course everything was going to be cleaned and fixed up as soon as possible.
Even if the death toll is less, it causes wore wide spread damage that can take up to a DECADE or more to fix. Natural disasters are way worse than a terrorist attack. Why? Because some natural disasters you can't detect, most of the time it's quite fucking hard to evacuate everyone from a Tsunami or Earthquake and/or expect the Tsunami or Earthquake to magically go away.

Mourning-wise, 9/11 affected far more. Damage wise, perhaps those two events caused more problems. I don't know. But losing your house or having to evacuate is not as bad as losing someone you love. You can always replace the house.

Finally you blame the media. I don't know if you realize this though, but the media are people too, meaning there is people who are the problem whether you like it or not. It should be acknowledged more. You want to know why most news casts don't want to? Because they don't want to actually say it's possible global warming is a fact and it's getting fucking worse every year.

I'll admit that there are people in this world who may be acting selfishly in terms of commemorating 9/11, but they are not the majority. And even if they were, the people who actually care shouldn't be bashed.

As for the second part of your paragraph, that deserves it's own thread.

Heh, well I have here in Texas. This is the part where you say "evidence" and make me take pictures of my television of scheduled memorial episode things or whatever you call them.

Well since you know so well what was going to say, why didn't you take a picture of the scheduled memorial? I look at abc and fox etc., and I see topics ranging from Jackie Kennedy and a man modeling woman's clothing, to the famine in Somalia. All non 9/11 things.

Wait, so it matters, but it's also irrelevant at the same time? What does that even mean?

Irrelevant to this debate.

Earlier you said I was debating objectively, now I'm not. Which is it? And yes, I am a very angry person. Angry people have loud voices and you can hear that better than others. Not that I like being angry at all, I don't.

I thought you were, and then you go and say something that seems fueled by rage that made me doubt that.

I don't think you are angry by choice. I think your experiences have made you very angry.

Nah. One little thread on VT in a Debate Board isn't going to change my anger , make it grow or go down any less. I'll always be the same and/or get worse, particularly get worse as my hatred for things grows.

I swear I'm not being condescending, but do you talk to a psychologist about this? Because that might really help...

You think I don't fucking care? Then why have I been making some of my longest posts on this site a debate with you? Of course I care! If I didn't care I wouldn't have made this thread and so on.

I meant that I care about the people you were insulting in your rant; I hate the thought of them being told to suppress their emotions because you don't think they should make such a 'big deal' out of this. Now that we're beginning to clarify that you had different people in mind-not the people who actually care, things are different. I wasn't doubting that you care about your side though, and if that's what it sounded like, then I apologize.

Uh, I was using your analogy against you, which was pure sarcasm and making fun of you obviously. And I've already mentioned a few times that the Holocaust should also be thought of still to this date to on the same level as all other events.

I know you don't think the Holocaust isn't a big deal, I was showing you how that statement you made, that it was ten years ago so people should get over it, is invalid, since another tragedy, the Holocaust, happened 7 times as many years ago, and we shouldn't just 'get over it' either.

By the way, I would never have any prejudice or hatred against Jews. One of the friends I've lived in and out with for the past two years is Jewish and he has people in his family who were effected by it. Actually, I find Judaism to be the religion I tolerate more than any others. I have not much against it.

I respect that. You speak to me as if I'm Jewish though, and I'm not. Judaism is a religion, not a race, and I am an atheist. The idea that if your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish is written in the Torah, and people who don't believe in the Torah shouldn't believe in any kind of Jewish 'gene'. And though Judaism isn't as idiotic as, for example, Christianity is, it still is completely ridiculous and contains many of the stupid things that cause other religions to be intolerant and ignorant. This is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but I just had to say that.

I'm sorry that there's not a readymade statistic and poll to prove that most Americans are uninformed about the event. This is a theory of mine I've come up with because the majority of people I've met have not heard of the event, even online. I wasn't taught it in school and I haven't read it in my College history books either. The only reason I know about it is due to my obsessive research I would do when I was really young trying to read about horrible things that have happened in this world. I'm quite sure I myself wouldn't know about it if I didn't do so, because it's not part of the education curriculum here.
Why? Because, rape is a very tough subject to talk for more than a paragraph over in front of a class room. Rape is still a big taboo thing for people to face. People are still being called whores, sluts, told they deserved it, etc. There's a huge prejudice and hatred against the victims that still stands today, including the fact people also find the subject to be uncomfortable to talk about. So yeah, that's probably the reason it isn't talked about here or from anyone else that hasn't heard about that I've brought it up to.

Fair enough. But don't let people's ignorance about Nanjing cause you to assume that all people are ignorant about every other tragedy out there.

Good to know you agree with me that it should be taught and recognized. From what I get, you also agree with me it should be mourned, remembered, and thought about the same as 9/11, The Holocaust, and all other events, right? Seems like we're starting to get on some sort of agreement eh?

On this point I have agreed with you from my very first post; I even pointed it out, right at the beginning:

I actually agree with your overall idea. I believe all terrible tragedies should be remembered. Including 9/11. There shouldn't be some kind of chart of which tragedies we're allowed to mourn and commemorate and which we aren't. So what, less people died in 9/11 than in other tragic events in history. That doesn't lessen people's right to feel the pain over what happened.

Uh oh! You might actually be starting to view things differently! Here comes the part where you fight back so this debate can go on as long as possible!

Shut up.

How am I supposed to know? I'm an easy person to troll, because I'm overly emotional and easily angered. Yeah, I'm sorry that you're having to ignore laundry and homework to reply to me, but that's your fucking choice isn't it? Just like it is mine too. You think I don't have things to do either? I'm a seventeen year old having to take difficult college classes. I've got music to listen to, friends to chill with, tacos to eat, all that bullshit. I'm debating right here right now because it kills the time I have when I'm not doing all of that. Because I don't sleep much, it's not a big deal to me. Sorry, but you can't really expect me to come down from a debate unless I suddenly go under kidney failure sometime soon. :P

I'm not saying that I have laundry and homework as an excuse, don't treat it as such. You accused me of trolling, I said I have way more pressing things to do than troll, and cited examples. Just like you cited examples when you explained all the other things you have to do than waste hours typing.

I respect all of this! Now all you need to do is flex yourself into debating other discussions. Doesn't this debate here, sort of make you feel like you can debate better now? I'm not saying I'm a challenging person, because there's people on VT waaaaay better at phrasing things better then I am, but it's fun to exercise your brain and all of that shit, even if you are angry.

I don't do this for fun. I said earlier why I hate debating. I know I can debate well, if it's necessary. I just have to control the panic I feel when I think debate from bad experiences when I was younger. So no, I'll exercise my brain in other ways.

Do me a favor and don't say I'm trying to make you feel bad for me or some other shit like you say later in your post, which I'm not going to waste my time replying to.

Can you prove to me the majority has moved on? And that varies from location in my opinion.

Yes, I can. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115482) The article discusses how quickly most Americans moved on from 9/11.

You didn't start that 9/11 thread. You didn't start this thread.

I meant my post. Brainfart.

are most people at a healthy relationship with death? I don't really know about that one there.

No, they're not. But experiencing a close death when they are not in an emotional state to be able to deal with it would just make matters worse.

Human emotion, mourning, all of this is relevant. You're saying that because you're just not thinking outside the box, thinking how it could be relevant. It's all connected in a way.

Dealing with death in a healthy manner isn't directly related to whether all tragedies are to be treated equally.

Those quotes were pulled apart from parts of the sentence in a creative manipulative way to make people think I'm saying what you think I'm saying, because you don't expect people to actually the walls of text.

I didn't bring forth those quotes for other people to see. I did so because you wrote in huge letters that I'm speaking for everyone, and I got tired of your hypocrisy.

Oh hell, I really hope people aren't actually reading these boring walls of texts we're posting here. And you thought WE had sleeping problems, no time to do the laundry and such.

Lol.

It's quite funny to watch though, isn't it? Isn't it funny how dumb those fucking idiots are? Of course, there's probably many idiots like that you can find in various countries too, but from experience I'm personally going to see the people here quite stupid.

I thought it was boring. It meant nothing to me. I know how idiotic people can be, unfortunately. I don't found it amusing when it's captured on camera.

That's sort of what I just said, but people of China and Europe are probably more intelligent then your typical American. China especially. You do know how strict those schools are and all that shit? You're forced to be a genius pretty much. Holy fuck would my head explode. I have to admit, I'm quite stupid and can only handle so much of being forced into difficult reading text books nonstop.

I prefer the American system. I don't like being force-fed information. Keep in mind, by the way, that the numbers of Chinese schoolchildren committing suicide is much higher than American schoolchildren.

Also, you're not stupid. Texts books excel at being exceedingly boring. It's their fault, not yours.

Death isn't a person and I don't think he would smash your face in if he was alive. And of course honesty is one of the best ways to learn something. Honesty, truth, and facts. Honesty because the opposite of that is lying. Are you saying lying works better?

"smash you in the face"=metaphor. When you're learning something impersonal, plain honesty and facts are the way to go. But something as deeply emotional as death should be treated with more sensitivity. Being sensitive is not the same as lying.

Meaningful is the wrong word. I would say 'close to'. Being close to can mean many things, I know, we've elaborated on that. Of course you'll feel a sadness they're gone, but a good way of dealing and coping with that is to remember the person for who they were, the memories with them, shit like that. It's a better way to deal with the death of people you're close to, rather then wallowing in complete depression for years over the loss of someone, because you could never imagine life without them.

Grief goes away with time. But right after the person who you are 'close to' dies, you feel the pain. Maybe you are different. But most people feel sadness knowing that they will never have a conversation with the dead person, never be able to cry on the dead persons shoulder etc. It's sad. It hurts. People should be allowed to mourn, not just celebrate the life the dead person lead.

Well, you were calling me immature and such, yet we're the same age so who are you to say who is mature and who isn't? Most people believe maturity doesn't happen until you grow loads older.

Personally, I don't believe in a such thing as maturity.

You can be mature when you're young. And we're not that young. By 17 you realize that certain things are stupid and and you were an idiot to do those things. Like kids obsessions with cooties (are they still obsessed with that or did it pass?). Pointing out a misinterpretation, aka, a mistake you made and then quoting it 4 times so that everyone could laugh at it is something someone who is 11 might do.

You saying I need to horrified and emotionally hurt as much as possible? Fuck that. I'd rather die then have to force myself to feel depressed and sad about every person I know that's died.

I'm saying don't become desensitized and resigned to it.

How do you know I haven't heard the points before? I've debated them with a few other people. I know your side of view. I see it and I get it. I just disagree with parts of it. Is that really hard for you to understand? :yawn:

"Act like."

Cool. I have my own beliefs, I preach them and debate. The only difference here is that in the Religion thread you can actually pull out evidence/proof. Plus, you haven't stopped debating me (I now applause you for that). In the religion thread nobody has gotten me to a stopping point. Hell, I've brought members of VT so much to a stopping point that they've become atheists! Isn't that fucking crazy?

I don't know whether to feel good or ashamed over that, because I take their faith away from them, but it's whatever. That's what debates are for, right? Proving and disproving?

As an atheist who's life has been turned to shit because of religion, you won't hear me complain that you've created more atheists.

I is has no's proof's. Sorry, all I have is my strongest and lefty teenage opinions. I try to make my opinions more challenging and sound better, but that's not proof. It's just saying who sounds better than who.

There are two problems with this: 1. You'd easily win a popularity contest over me. No one knows me here. I just popped into the picture one day. You have fanboys, for fucks sake. I'm nobody. 2. Anger and passion are far more attractive than flat objective discussion. I've been working really hard to control my anger throughout this debate, often making myself sound boring. Just the way you articulate your thoughts (with caps lock and excessive cursing) makes your words more enticing.

Uh, that made no sense whatsoever. I believe certain tragedies should be given more attention to the point where all tragedies are equally known, understood, and all that great stuff. I personally believe that view. I'm not pretending to think that. That would make this debate completely pointless. Well, it is sort of pointless because it's going nowhere, but you know what I mean.

But that's the thing-I said that in my very first post, but instead of realizing that I was essentially agreeing with you, you continued to pick apart my posts, misinterpret and mock them.

Damn. My fingers kind of hurt. I'm going to listen to some crazy ass free jazz now.

And I'm gonna go take a nice relaxing shower and get my 3 hours of sleep.

Also guys, if you're on my side, don't go out of your way trying to neg rep Lilys to oblivion, even if some of the things she says are bonkers. She's keeping up a very long debate that most people can't take.

I'm going to ignore that little barb in the middle and say thanks.

@faithandtrust-you're fixating on the "everyone" thing, which is hardly the point here. We all agree. I don't have the patience to go through your earlier post and dissect it but if you really want me to, I will, and I'll explain. The irony is that we all very much agree.

@the person who neg-repped me-FUCK OFF. I can't believe you actually neg-repped me for saying that I have to do laundry. Are you fucking kidding me? Get a life.

Sidenote: I wrote this last night, but my internet was turned off before I got the chance to send it, so the shower and sleep thing doesn't make sense anymore. Just clarifying.

[Infidelitas]

@the person who neg-repped me-FUCK OFF. I can't believe you actually neg-repped me for saying that I have to do laundry. Are you fucking kidding me? Get a life.

I actually neg repped you for this:
I have stuff to do in my life; piles of homework, and I'm getting 4 hours of sleep a night. And instead of doing that I'm wasting hours typing actual arguments for you to consider, while you let it all blow over your head because you only read what you want to read.

Exaggerating the fact that you had all those chores and homework to do, and you're getting less sleep. That is not important to the arguement, and I see it as sympathy hunting. Its your choice to do that, not ours. Don't bring us into it.
And it wasn't because you had laundry, if you had read the comment:

Well its nice to see that your exaggerating the fact that you have homework and laundry to do. Does it look like we give a fuck? Its your fault if you choose to debate, rather than your chores. No sympathy...~AA
You will find that isn't for laundry.

[Vonn]

I actually neg repped you for this:

Exaggerating the fact that you had all those chores and homework to do, and you're getting less sleep. That is not important to the arguement, and I see it as sympathy hunting. Its your choice to do that, not ours. Don't bring us into it.

And it wasn't because you had laundry, if you had read the comment:


You will find that isn't for laundry.

I'm not saying that I have laundry and homework as an excuse, don't treat it as such. You accused me of trolling, I said I have way more pressing things to do than troll, and cited examples. Just like you cited examples when you explained all the other things you have to do than waste hours typing.

Lots of things have been said that aren't important to the argument. It's not nice to make assumptions. -rep itself really isn't a big deal, but that comment was unnecessarily rude.

[Infidelitas]

Lots of things have been said that aren't important to the argument. It's not nice to make assumptions. -rep itself really isn't a big deal, but that comment was unnecessarily rude.

Hey, atleast I admitted that it was me, many people here wouldn't..

[Vonn]

True, but it still wasn't necessary. And that's all I have to say, since this is probably considered off topic.

(I've been reading this entire debate 'cause I can afford to ignore my homework.)

[Angel Androgynous]

I am just assuming, but, I think you guys are misunderstanding each other. :P Lilys has stated that she agrees with you for the most part. All tragedies should be mourned equally... from what I've read, she also agrees that the media pushes it too far. What she's trying to get across is that people should be able to mourn if they want to. What Deadpie was trying to say (at least how I understand it) is that there are those who actually mourn/feel bad/whatever, and then those who pretend to because it makes them feel "patriotic" and "correct." The fact that it's being shoved down people's throats and if we don't mourn/agree with everyone else that it was leik da biggest tragedy evarr we're suddenly a "bad American." Also, what I think he's saying is that "mourning" is pointless if you were not affected... at all. At least that is the general idea I got from reading this. You two essentially agree with each other... I think the misunderstanding happened when Deadpie stated his opinion in the tribute thread, which sparked a debate. A debate... where the general point is agreed upon. (For the "all tragedies SHOULD be mourned equally.) I think you guys are misinterpreting each other's posts... from the way I see it, is that you guys agree with each other. (The core of the argument, at least.) As for 9/11 being exploited by the media and the government? I think we can all agree that it's just ridiculous.

[Eagle1]

Problem one with your post.



1...More so the people who make themselves victims who weren't effected at all. What I mean is people who didn't lose anyone and weren't even living in NY at the time, but act like they lost an entire family in it.

2..And too bad that I decided to voice my opinion in a tribute thread. It was already off topic by other people, which those posts were deleted.



3..So that makes it more important than Pearl Harbor or any event that had more people die in it? Well, woopty doo. There's your second problem. All tragedies should be mourned, known and thought over at the same level, no matter how many people died.



4..Are you saying it still couldn't of been stopped no matter what? That there couldn't of been precautions to stop it? Many natural disasters are unpredictable, in terms of knowing when it's going to happen and/or the damage.


5..Yes, the innocent people living in Japan brought it upon themselves, including all of those children (sarcasm). There's your third and biggest problem. Also, are you saying killing over 200,000 people justifies the fact that they killed 2,402 people? In any instance of war, genocide, attacks, killings, etc, there's a big level of hypocrisy and stupidity. All wars are fucking dumb. Curruption is fucking dumb. Killing people that kill to show that killing people is dumb. Sure, what Japan did to us was dumb, but what we did was dumb too.

6...I guess what's ironic in what I'm saying right now is I used to be misanthropic, but changed to be sort of a philanthropist, but my negativity for certain humans still bothers me, which has kind of stopped me from becoming more of a philanthropist. Maybe, maybe one day when I'm happier I'll accept really annoying dumb people like Michelle Bachmann, move on, and become a pure philanthropist. I don't know. Now I'm going way off fucking topic.



7..I'm sure there's alternatives that could of worked better.

8...I bet you're one of those people who were also laughing when parts of Japan were recently destroyed by the tsunami, earthquake, and radiation, saying it's justified still. People like you make me sick.

9...Also, thanks for the negative reputation that says "anti american much faggot".

image (http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6190/antiamerican.png)

10...Typical teenage conservative homophobe not knowing anything about anything, ignoring most of my debate, and probably has a strong hatred for liberals while also saying cops are the best people to trust.

11...Dammit. I knew I was right! What's worse is he can't even spell the word liberal correctly and yet that's who he is arguing against.

This forum is just too much fun.

Okay starting over, I should not have posted last night as I was already upset due to family drama.

I will try and respond to each if I miss one sorry

1. I agree some what it was a traumatic day for a lot of people but at the same time alot of people over-reacted to it and claimed like they personally lost someone.

2. Sorry, I neglected to read the full thread

3. Agreed, did not mean for it to come out that way, any loss of innocent life is bad just trying to put it in prospective (more for myself really)

4.No we could have stopped it but the dumb asses at the FAA had their heads up their asses and did not believe it. On top of that at that time the military did not keep and combat ready craft. Both of which caused delays in response time.

5.I dont even know why I typed that but no that is not the point of it what I believe I was trying to say. In fact I don't know where I was going with that, but like I said earlier any loss of innocent life in unfortunate.
I will say war is dumb so is corruption but the reasons for war are not always and this country has almost always tried to avoid it. (yes there have been exceptions)

6.I don't know where you were going there lol

7. At the time what could we have done? we gave them an ultimatum they ignored if you can come up with anything PM me and I will respond.

8. NO in fact I hate those people I have never said ANYTHING about them deserving any recent loss of life. I have the upmost respect for the emergency workers over there going in when they know they might get irreversibly exposed to radiation. (On a side note I even drive a car made over there Toyota FJ Cruiser)

9. I sincerely apologize for that like I said I was already in a bad mood and should not have I expect more from myself and I am not proud of it. If you reply in a respectful way I will add to yours.

10. As much as I want to yell and pick a fight over this one I won't I am a teenager just like you, I am not a strict conservative (mostly independent, willing to listen to both sides though).

I take offense to being called a homophobe I openly support whatever people decide to be I am not one to infringe on someones personal choices(and yes I have gay friends).
I know alot about alot of things lol but I don't know everything;) if I am ever wrong about something please call me out respectfully.

Honestly, yes I dislike Liberals as they are usually all too willing to trample over the Bill of Rights I have yet to meet one that I could carry on a respectful, Intelligent conversation with.

No I am not saying their the BEST people to trust I just try and give them the benefit of the doubt as most (well most that I have met) are honest, kind, and they do there job because they want to help people. There will always be bad cops and bad people in general but every day hundreds of thousands of good officers go to work willing to take a bullet and possibly die for any innocent life.

11. I never claimed to be a good speller or a good typist lol both would be lies. I am better than most who dont event try though.


I hope that all came out clear and respectful.:cool:

Now back on track lol

[Amaryllis]

I am just assuming, but, I think you guys are misunderstanding each other. :P Lilys has stated that she agrees with you for the most part. All tragedies should be mourned equally... from what I've read, she also agrees that the media pushes it too far. What she's trying to get across is that people should be able to mourn if they want to. What Deadpie was trying to say (at least how I understand it) is that there are those who actually mourn/feel bad/whatever, and then those who pretend to because it makes them feel "patriotic" and "correct." The fact that it's being shoved down people's throats and if we don't mourn/agree with everyone else that it was leik da biggest tragedy evarr we're suddenly a "bad American." Also, what I think he's saying is that "mourning" is pointless if you were not affected... at all. At least that is the general idea I got from reading this. You two essentially agree with each other... I think the misunderstanding happened when Deadpie stated his opinion in the tribute thread, which sparked a debate. A debate... where the general point is agreed upon. (For the "all tragedies SHOULD be mourned equally.) I think you guys are misinterpreting each other's posts... from the way I see it, is that you guys agree with each other. (The core of the argument, at least.) As for 9/11 being exploited by the media and the government? I think we can all agree that it's just ridiculous.

What Ida said.

I was trying to say that. But, you know... Ida's a lot better than me at being... Yeah. I agree with you, lily. And yes, I think we're all just terrible writers and readers. So, what Ida said.


You say tomato, I say tomato. That does not work on a computer screen...

I THINK they're both saying almost the same thing though. So this is what I THINK they both mean.

Virtual hugs to everyone who's ever been through crap. We've been through crap as well. Some have more crap than others. But that's okay. With crap comes flushing and with flushing comes a whole new toilet bowl! And with that comes a whole new toilet.

Life goes on.

Yeah, well, obviously Ida's better at explaining things. I just use toilet and tomato analogies...

[deadpie]

I agree. Be bothered, be hurt, be shocked, be disgusted, be horrified. But don't hurt or ridicule those mourning/remembering tragedies because you assume they only care about that tragedy in particular, and don't downgrade one tragedy because your annoyed about how people react to it. It is still a tragedy.

It makes things seem less and/or more of a tragedy when you only pay attention to the ones that effect you. I don't really like that. Like I said, all tragedies should be known, remembered, dammit I don't have to tell you all of this again.

You can clearly see I'm aware of the tragedies the world has faced, yet I still posted in the tribute thread.

I'm going to ask a question. Was what I did really anything bad compared to you posting pictures of people jumping off buildings during 9/11? Yes, we know it happened. We know people killed themselves so they wouldn't have to burn alive. I could post pictures of deformed people in Hiroshima and shit like that all day too.

Simply because there are worse tragedies, doesn't mean that 9/11 isn't one.

When have I said 9/11 wasn't a tragedy?

I swear if you post a thread about any other tragedy, that you feel is forgotten or otherwise, I would comment on it as well. I treat all tragedies with respect.

I don't have the time to post those threads right now. Maybe when I return to VT I will.

Do you want people to feel every tragedy as if it were their own, affected or not?

That's a dumb question. Of course I don't want to be effected of every tragedy in the world in terms of having someone close to me die from it!

You keep switching back and forth between that and "people are making a big deal out of tragedies that didn't affect them.

Face it. Most Americans weren't effected. If what you say is true and most Americans are also moving on, that still doesn't mean there's not people out there who act like it happened to them when it didn't and make themselves victims. When I see people like that, people who lie, I sort of start to wish it did happen to them, because of how offensive it is to families who were actually effected.

The only part I disagree with is that it must be all or nothing. Most people know the world is a shitty place.

I would disagree and some people don't realize how shitty it really is even when they know it's shit. It's shittier than shit.

\ You want people to chose between mourning all and mourning none. Does that mean that losing a loved one should not be allowed to be mourned because that person doesn't know of the hundreds of Jewish refugees who were turned away from the US and sent back to Nazi infested Europe, where they were systematically murdered?

See, it's not that hard to mourn everyone in the world. I feel bad for anyone that goes through tragedies, regardless of who they are, because I have a psychological analogy of people that people do things for a reason, so there's always good in even the worst of people.

That includes every person that's had to fight a disease that's impossible to win and end up dead. It also includes the people who just plainly fucking die. Death hurts people. Death brings people together. Death does a shit load of things.

I feel bad for all, feel bothered over all disturbing events, etc. That might be why my brain is wired wrong, I don't know. For some reason, I think of it as a very conscious view on reality.

I bet most people don't know most tragedies, and that some are actively trying not to know, but that doesn't take away from their right to mourn.

I thought you said most/everyone knows about Nanking and other tragedies. Well ok. I still don't think when some people get free time they decide to research shit events to help increase their perception of sickening for the world.

That's fair. But 9/11 is a terrible thing too. It's part of the garbage you want everyone to be aware of. Of course people should take notice of tragedies outside their borders as well, but that doesn't take away their right to mourn and remember 9/11.

I never said 9/11 wasn't terrible? And it's nice to see you agree!

You didn't see the sarcasm because you were blind

Ok. Whatever you say!

to what I really meant in favor of what you thought I meant. My stance on all these topics hasn't changed throughout this entire debate.

Closed minded people never change their views and opinions even when debating. They come in knowing they'll come out with the same views because anything that challenges them to think too much in a way they haven't thought of something before means they need to look away and look at words differently.

So yes, I'm saying you are pretty closed minded if you haven't thought of things in at least one way differently.

But you were angry, and you didn't really read what I was saying.

I have read what you've said. I've dissected and quote all of this shit. In fact, I'm trying to be really nice on this post and not curse at all, but now you're really starting to bother me again.

You read what you wanted to read.

I can say the same thing about you? It doesn't fucking mean anything. That's you're way of saying, "Because you don't agree with my opinions you OBVIOUSLY aren't paying attention because I'm so fucking right that I've never been wrong about a single debate in my life. Yeah, I'm pretty badass."

Except you aren't badass. You're not completely right on everything. I might not be right on certain things. Then again that doesn't mean anything either because all of this comes down to opinions and debating emotional reasons and our philosophies on things. There is no real right or wrong really. You don't even see that.

Now that you are not shouting through my computer screen I assume you've mellowed out a bit

That was probably my xanax kicking in. Kidding. No I'm not.

and you are seeing my arguments for what they really are, and realizing we are practically in agreement.

:D

Scratch that, you're still reading what you want to read, it seems.

Lol, whatever you say. When I read books I only read it so I can make up my own plot. I never actually read them, I just read what I want to read. This is sarcasm.

If I say that it's not good to be desensitized

I wouldn't call it desensitized. Plus, over time, all humans will learn what it's like to watch everyone die. Richey Edwards had some quote about how he viewed that the meaning of life is death itself; that it's the end of everything, we slowly grow up losing everything close to us, see death on tv, see death in tragedies, everyone is fucking dying, then you die.

The people I know personally who have died, I still think about them, not in a mourning way, but the times I had with them. I'm not fucking desensitized. I think about my friend Dasen almost every damn day.

because then tragic events don't affect you as much and don't form a horror-filled response, it doesn't make logical sense that I would say "who cares if they die." Instead, my saying the latter quote is proving my earlier quote.

Exactly! It doesn't make sense, which is why I thought you meant it, because a few of your arguments are quite bad.

You said earlier that I made you look like a psychopath by the way I quoted. You are doing the same thing to me. And you cling to it, because who would be on the same side as a psychopath?

Apparently I would, being that I'm against the death penalty.



No, not really. If you recognize every tragedy for what it's worth, your views on this world WILL change, for better or worse. Unless you're someone who just doesn't care what happens. I've got a friend like that. >.>

[QUOTE=Lilys;1445771]Then you are blind.

Colorblind, not blind. :P

I don't think I've ever said (/typed) something so sarcastic in my entire life. I ask for my parents to send money to kids in third world countries instead of fucking birthday presents. I don't want to kill them all out. I can't believe I even have to say this.

Why would you even say any of that if you donate money to those children? Do you realize how fucking douchey that is even if it's sarcasm? Do you not feel bad at all for saying that garbage? You have to admit, what you said is fucking garbage, right? Or are you that objectively correct on everything you can't even admit that THAT is garbage either?

Blame the media, not the people. Leave the people alone. Let them commemorate in peace.

Fuckin A. There's always many people to blame too. Don't blame THE people? So don't blame Al Quida for blowing up the WTC? Ok, I won't. (sarcasm)

The reason I don't insult you etc. is because I'm not here to fight with you, but to debate with you. The comment on rape was part of my argument, which is the only reason I included it. I didn't put it there to aggravate you.

Well too bad! Unfortunately, you pretty much fueled up the anger from that.

Yeah well the problem with that is that if you are literally fueled by rage, there is no way you can debate objectively

You're kidding right? You don't think Kaczynski, a man fueled by rage, didn't have reasons and a good debate for the things he did, his crimes against humanity? He wrote a fucking manifesto over it. All because I have tons of anger doesn't mean I can't debate. In fact, I think it's important to get angry once in a while!

and be willing to consider the other person's view.

It's the opposite way around. I've considered everything you've said, I've even agreed with small parts of it, as you do agree with small parts of mine, the only different is that I've been able to slowly form different views and shit over the time of the argument.

OF course I see other people's view! Why do you think some people like it when I debate?

I'm angry, but I dissociate from that and act like you aren't annoying the fuck out of me every time you misinterpret and twist my words, which is ridiculously often.

The only difference between you and me is that I say it out loud. We're both on the same page of thinking we're being wrongly interpreted and getting words turned around.

You got "I don't care about 9/11" from this: "I'm not here to insult you, I'm trying to show my view on mourning 9/11 and all tragedies to you, because I really care about this issue".

Wow. Now that's an accomplishment.

Oops! I guess that is my mistake there. At least I'm still calling myself out on stupid shit I say unlike you. You're never going to change your views on anything, think anything differently. You're just a rock. Not even a rock, because a rock can eventually become a sediment or magma.


I don't like debating because I have been traumatized by it/quote]

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK


Traumatized? Do you know how serious that word is? Do you get nightmares of debates, triggers of debates, hurt yourself over debates, cry and blame yourself over debates?

Speaking from someone that actually has PTSD, that just fueled my fucking anger again.

[QUOTE=Lilys;1445771]which is something I'm not very comfortable talking about. What I'm doing now is what my psychologist considers "self-destructive behavior."

You showed your psychologist this thread and said, "Here, this is what is traumatizing me" then she replies, "This is self destructive"?

Oh my! Somebody call the wambulance!

Well, as you never cease to remind me, I'm speaking of the majority. Most people. You may treat mourning differently. That's fine. But if others feel better by mourning, you don't have the right to take that away from them, no matter how dumb you think it is.

Mourning over things that didn't affect you for a long period over time while not paying attention or caring about anything else that's bad that has and is happening in the world is dumb.

I think you have a distorted view of emotions because of the bad experiences you've gone through.

Thank you, therapist. We all know people with different view of emotions can never think right, meaning I must be wrong. /sarcasm

Then again I am started Outpatient treatment on Saturday, which I'm going to mention in a thread quite soon after I'm done with this debate.

Wait, weren't you just saying you were traumatized by debating? Isn't that sort of hypocritical towards this all?

Well then tell your friends that's what you want. I don't think it's fair, but it's your life/death, do what you want. But don't try to apply or impose this on others.

Choosing what you want over your death isn't fair? So it's not fair if I said, "Don't take a shit on my corpse and throw my body off a fucking plane when I'm dead?" Yet you say you respect death, but don't respect the person's wishes when they die. It's their death, THEIR DEATH. It should be about THEM. You owe them that.

Well, first off, you bring in lots of topics that are weakly related to this one, and it turns into a whole new debate (like this debate on emotions we somehow began).

It's not a bad thing to try debating different things from time to time.

Second, you misinterpret my words more than half the time.

Again I could say the same for you meaning this means nothing at all and you really need to stop saying this.

I believe that it's possible more people on VT agree with you than with me.

Probably. You're probably getting a lot more positive feedback then me, the guy who's being called a faggot who's anti american.

But if anyone believes my argument has more contradictions and hypocrisy than yours, then they clearly are not understanding me. I take painstaking care to ensure that I don't do that.

Because you're right, I'm wrong, they're wrong if they disagree, your views are the the best, my views are the worst, bla bla. NO! NO NO NO! You don't get what debating really is then. You're not some God being that knows everything correctly. Admit you can be wrong at times, call yourself out on shit, open your skull.

But in the tribute thread, not only did you have no way of knowing if we see the world that way, you also went on a rant that didn't clearly state this concept, instead opting for "everyone makes a big deal out of this when there are worse things."

Yes, there are worse things, people need to realize them, and I want people to treat them all equally. That isn't a dumb concept, even if it's not completely right.



That's why debating with you is pointless. You can't ever let yourself be wrong or view thing differently because you're so stuck in this view that you're always right. It's pathetic. I'll never like anyone who thinks like that.

[QUOTE=Lilys;1445771]I see yours views, how you think mourning is stupid, how you think others view the US, and a whole bunch of other topics you brought up, and I stuck to my views because after spending time thinking them through, I came to the conclusion that they were right. I won't apologize because you've failed to prove me wrong in certain areas. This isn't a debate of "I'm right, your wrong" or else I wouldn't be here.

It's exactly a debate of "I'm right, your wrong" because of YOU. You're the one that isn't ever willing to think differently or challenge themselves.

I hate debating. I don't do this for fun. I've come so close to just not bothering to reply so many times because I felt it's just not worth the stress.

Cool.

The only times I asked for evidence was when you argued that most of the world thinks of Texas when they imagine the US, and when you argued that most people in the world don't know/care about the massacre in Nanjing. Those are two perfectly reasonable places to ask for evidence. I'm not denying the effort you put in trying to find proofs.[/quote[

The second one I stand by the most, the first one, sort of. More so the entire south or the tea party right now, because they're the most controversial figures out there. People tend to judge, whether it's right or wrong.

[QUOTE=Lilys;1445771] For example, on the tribute thread there were people from countries like the UK who clearly were unaffected by 9/11 but still sent out their support to those who might need it, and took part in commemorating 9/11. Do you think they were all lying?

No? I don't think that UK person whoever it was that felt bad over 9/11 was lying. Where would you get that from?

That's a pretty big assumption, saying that people personally unaffected are selfishly making themselves victims. I won't discount the idea that there might be some people who do this, but to say that most people are just being selfish is really pushing it.

It's not pushing it. In fact, I should be pushing that idea more, especially in terms of the fucking middle class who does it the most, because there lives are so scarcely boring they have to be involved in certain things or else they have to keep telling themselves this nihilistic view that the perfect family, perfect house, perfect everything is just complete shit an pointless.

But how can you know if someone is or isn't? Maybe there are some people who are doing this, fine. But respect the people who aren't doing this,

I respect the people who were literally hurt by it, including every other hurt human being in the world. If you're going through anything right now, I'd feel bad for you too, even though I also really dislike you at the same time for the shit you say.

and are commemorating the victims and the tragedy. Don't tell them they're annoying fakes making a big deal out of nothing.

They should do more commemorating of the victims then of themselves or THE FUCKING BUILDING. I would think the people that died would get bigger stories then the damn building itself. inb4 wrongly read what I just said there. Read it a few times first.

Mourning-wise, 9/11 affected far more. Damage wise, perhaps those two events caused more problems. I don't know. But losing your house or having to evacuate is not as bad as losing someone you love. You can always replace the house.

You lose more than your house. Your entire COMMUNITY. A fucking town and/or city.

I'll admit that there are people in this world who may be acting selfishly in terms of commemorating 9/11, but they are not the majority. And even if they were, the people who actually care shouldn't be bashed.

I'd like it better if people cared about everything though. People should be more open minded on things. Is it bad for me to pissed that people aren't giving a shit about other things?

Well since you know so well what was going to say, why didn't you take a picture of the scheduled memorial? I look at abc and fox etc., and I see topics ranging from Jackie Kennedy and a man modeling woman's clothing, to the famine in Somalia. All non 9/11 things.

Bullshit. Complete bullshit. That Somalia thing wouldn't possibly get more than ten minutes of importance on a news station like fox news.

I don't think you are angry by choice. I think your experiences have made you very angry.

I'm not completely in rage, I just get very angry. Doesn't mean I have self control. In fact, my self control is quite strong. I chose to smile and drink this orange juice rather then go out with a shotgun blowing heads off completely naked. There's a thin line where I can separate myself from my absolute insane rage.

I wasn't doubting that you care about your side though, and if that's what it sounded like, then I apologize.

Finally, you call yourself out on something. *claps* We're progressing!

I respect that. You speak to me as if I'm Jewish though, and I'm not. Judaism is a religion, not a race, and I am an atheist. The idea that if your mother is Jewish then you are Jewish is written in the Torah, and people who don't believe in the Torah shouldn't believe in any kind of Jewish 'gene'. And though Judaism isn't as idiotic as, for example, Christianity is, it still is completely ridiculous and contains many of the stupid things that cause other religions to be intolerant and ignorant. This is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but I just had to say that.

Alrighty then.

Fair enough. But don't let people's ignorance about Nanjing cause you to assume that all people are ignorant about every other tragedy out there.

Most people are. I have to ask them, see if they care, try to get people to care about other things. I want everyone to be equally be respected. I believe in emotional symmetry, which sounds like it means absolutely nothing, but it means something to me.

Shut up.

Now who's the immature angry traumatized by a debate person who's saying shut up now? Ha! This is what eventually happens to all who debate me. They get pretty pissed off.

I don't do this for fun. I said earlier why I hate debating. I know I can debate well, if it's necessary.

You can debate well in a sense of going absolutely nowhere and never wanting to have your views changed, as in you can't debate well at all. All because you can make long posts in response to me doesn't mean you can debate well.

I just have to control the panic I feel when I think debate from bad experiences when I was younger. So no, I'll exercise my brain in other ways.

Are you trying to make me feel bad still? It's not going to work. Traumatized by debating. For fucks sake. People are traumatized by everything now. But when it comes to child sexual abuse of a troop that had to kill someone to protect someone else, well, they don't matter, do they? Those topics are just too controversial and need to hidden under the rug.

Do me a favor and don't say I'm trying to make you feel bad for me or some other shit like you say later in your post, which I'm not going to waste my time replying to.

You're trying to make me feel good for you or some other piss like you say soon in my your post, which you will waste your time replying to.

There! I said the exact opposite, I think.

I meant my post. Brainfart.

:P

No, they're not. But experiencing a close death when they are not in an emotional state to be able to deal with it would just make matters worse.

Or make a person stronger, not saying it's a good thing to lose someone, but you do begin to get a rougher and deeper feeling under certain emotions the more you experience and understand them.

Dealing with death in a healthy manner isn't directly related to whether all tragedies are to be treated equally.

But it is linked in some sense. 9/11 victims died, families effected look for a way to deal with it directly, they do so, end of story. There's a link I just formed, along with the few you haven't notice that we've discussed, which kind of says you don't even know what you're saying when you're debating because you don't even get how things can be linked when sounding off.

I didn't bring forth those quotes for other people to see. I did so because you wrote in huge letters that I'm speaking for everyone, and I got tired of your hypocrisy.

That wasn't hypocritical of what I was saying. You're as much as a hypocrite as I am, even if you are right on what you say in this thread.

I prefer the American system. I don't like being force-fed information. Keep in mind, by the way, that the numbers of Chinese schoolchildren committing suicide is much higher than American schoolchildren.

I never said it's a good system. In fact it's shit. But those people who are forced to learn more are probably still smarter, regardless of suicidal tendencies. In fact, the smartest people I've ever met in my life have ever killing themselves or are suicidal.

You can be mature when you're young. And we're not that young. By 17 you realize that certain things are stupid and and you were an idiot to do those things. Like kids obsessions with cooties (are they still obsessed with that or did it pass?). Pointing out a misinterpretation, aka, a mistake you made and then quoting it 4 times so that everyone could laugh at it is something someone who is 11 might do.

Are you sure about that? Sometimes you really have to repeat things for people to listen to. I thought that's what teachers do exactly to 11 year old students who don't pay attention in class? I had to make sure people really realized how dumb that was, what you said.

"Act like."

What are you saying?

As an atheist who's life has been turned to shit because of religion, you won't hear me complain that you've created more atheists.

Well, the fact that one of my closest friends has attempted suicide because of his lack of faith once, it does make me feel bad in a way. I used to completely fucking hate the idea of faith. I even had a thread about it. Even though there was some good points, I've developed an understanding that some people really need to latch onto a delusion or stupid fucking man in the sky, or else they'll feel completely fucking lost. I'd rather people have their own higher power though, rather then stupid fucking religion versions of God where your God kills over 400,000 people and says the women who are raped need to marry the men.

There are two problems with this: 1. You'd easily win a popularity contest over me.

Depends on what the popularity contest is over. I don't know if you get this, probably because you're new or something, but I'm quite a fucking hated user on here. Shouldn't that be sort of obvious? I'm confrontational, honest, and quite rude at times.

The only reason I have high rep is because there's users with really high rep giving it to me who are in the same boat as me. I can assure you most of the staff here are always looking for dirt to dig up on me. That's why I've gotten two pointless infractions over the time of being here, one that got reversed because of how dumb it was.

There's a chance you could win a popularity contest. Especially with the fact that I won't be on VT much now.


No one knows me here. I just popped into the picture one day. You have fanboys, for fucks sake.

I like to call them friends, not fanboys. People who have fanboys don't talk to their fanboys, are selfish, and just don't give a shit about shit. I consider anyone who really likes me to be a friend and I like to talk to those people as much as possible.

I'm nobody.

Fix it then. Like I give a shit that you think you're a nobody user. You can definitely be someone.

2. Anger and passion are far more attractive than flat objective discussion. I've been working really hard to control my anger throughout this debate, often making myself sound boring. Just the way you articulate your thoughts (with caps lock and excessive cursing) makes your words more enticing.

I'm sure you've gotten more rep over me from this debate because of your patience and willing to not be pissed off. That's a good thing. You're definitely the better user out of the two of us, but I still think my views make more sense then yours and my debate is better, no matter how angry I sound.


And eagle1 i'm not going to even reply to you because you piss me off enough.

[Travis_123]

pfww heated arguement..

[Malcolm Tucker]

pfww heated arguement..

Pfww useless post. While I understand -rep is such a huge consideration, and whatever else, there's a topic at hand, stick to it...

[Sogeking]

Pfww useless post. While I understand -rep is such a huge consideration, and whatever else, there's a topic at hand, stick to it...

I was just about to ask about that. What are you guys debating about?

[Magus]

I was just about to ask about that. What are you guys debating about?
About Americans and 9/11 in general. But it become more or less answering the quoted parts.

[Amaryllis]

Basically we're(they're) dancing a tango in a merry-go-round. It never really gets anywhere. Now it just seems more like a pointless punch-him, punch-her, bystanders go wtf and mods go geez.. debate.

A big merry-go-round of hypocrisy and frustration.


I prefer the American system. I don't like being force-fed information. Keep in mind, by the way, that the numbers of Chinese schoolchildren committing suicide is much higher than American schoolchildren.

Just so you know... China's suicide rates are much lower than America's. We have fewer alcoholics and drug addicts. Because we're bloody scared of our parents.

I never said it's a good system. In fact it's shit. But those people who are forced to learn more are probably still smarter, regardless of suicidal tendencies. In fact, the smartest people I've ever met in my life have ever killing themselves or are suicidal.

Chinese standards
A = Average
B = Bad
C = Crap
D = Dead
F = F**ked

How did you guys even get to this topic anyway? And why are you talking about not being Jewish and debating being traumatising? Sorry. I'm going off topic here.

9/11 happened. It sucks. As do all the other terrible things that happen. It doesn't matter how many people died in which. They're all horrible. Who cares how popular you are or how popular some terrible event that happened is. Instead of making a big fuss over tragedies, why can't be celebrate the millions of lives that are saved each day?

Shit happens. Wars, genocides and blabla happen because we're all so pissed and we can't agree on what goddamn colour we should use for our flag. 9/11 wasn't the worst thing in the world. Sure, it's a tragedy. But no need to hate over it. That's not the whole point. The few crazy people who happen to be muslims didn't bomb the place to make the americans hold hands, sing and dance. SOME americans aren't very nice anyway. People die everyday. Are you gonna cry over each one? It takes more muscles to frown. And you're wasting the world's water supply when you cry. Go to Israel, Malaysia, Indonesia and make some friends. Give 'em some flowers. Meet a Jewish, get a chinese buddy, marry an indian, go to the hospital and stare at cute babies in those chicken-incubator thingies.

"Thongs" have different meanings to different people. In America, it's skimpy underwear. In Australia, it's what you wear on your feet. We keep misinterpreting each other's posts. We should just stop hating and start loving.
What am I? A nun?

When you point at someone, 3 fingers are pointing back at you.
I make no sense.

[Iris]

I'm going to ask a question. Was what I did really anything bad compared to you posting pictures of people jumping off buildings during 9/11? Yes, we know it happened. We know people killed themselves so they wouldn't have to burn alive. I could post pictures of deformed people in Hiroshima and shit like that all day too.

Yes it is worse than what I did, which wasn't bad at all. The thread was meant to commemorate, and pictures are ways to commemorate. If there was a thread commemorating the victims in Hiroshima, I'd post pictures of the tragedy as well. I wouldn't say "people always makes such a big deal out of Hiroshima instead of everything else in the world" like you did, because it is both not the point, and cruel.

When have I said 9/11 wasn't a tragedy?

At the beginning of this debate you were arguing that people are moaning over 9/11, and you bashed 9/11, as if it wasn't as important as all the other tragedies you wanted people to remember. You also supported Electric Nomads's post in which he said that he doesn't have any pity for the 9/11 victims at all, and said something along the lines of "they deserved it." These two strongly suggested that you don't believe 9/11 is as much of a tragedy as others.

That's a dumb question. Of course I don't want to be effected of every tragedy in the world in terms of having someone close to me die from it!

It's a perfectly valid question based on your words in previous posts. You want everyone to feel these tragedies, to really be aware of them and strongly bothered by them. Yet at the same time you say that people who were not personally affected shouldn't be mourning, shouldn't be making a 'big deal,' because you're convinced they are doing it for selfish reasons. I am trying to make sense of this.

Face it. Most Americans weren't effected. If what you say is true and most Americans are also moving on, that still doesn't mean there's not people out there who act like it happened to them when it didn't and make themselves victims. When I see people like that, people who lie, I sort of start to wish it did happen to them, because of how offensive it is to families who were actually effected.

So you feel this way because you think it's offensive. You know what's more offensive? You going to a tribute and whining that there were worse tragedies. Now that's disrespectful. And earlier, when I said it saddened me that a girl who commented in the depression section that her grandfather died in 9/11 might see your post, you said "Guess what? That's life." You are being far more offensive than those 'faking it.'

I would disagree and some people don't realize how shitty it really is even when they know it's shit. It's shittier than shit.

And the fact that the world is shittier than shit makes it wrong for people to mourn certain shitty events because there are shittier ones?

See, it's not that hard to mourn everyone in the world. I feel bad for anyone that goes through tragedies, regardless of who they are, because I have a psychological analogy of people that people do things for a reason, so there's always good in even the worst of people.

Mourning and 'feeling bad' are not the same. Feeling bad is essentially remembering, and when you remember something terrible, you 'feel bad' about it. Mourning, and grief are far more painful than that

That includes every person that's had to fight a disease that's impossible to win and end up dead. It also includes the people who just plainly fucking die. Death hurts people. Death brings people together. Death does a shit load of things.

I feel bad for all, feel bothered over all disturbing events, etc. That might be why my brain is wired wrong, I don't know. For some reason, I think of it as a very conscious view on reality.

Don't hold people accountable if they don't do this. I feel bad for the people who die before their time etc, but I don't mourn it. As for people who plainly die, I don't feel bad for them, only the people left behind. Dying of old age is not a bad thing, it's setting the person free, in my eyes.

I thought you said most/everyone knows about Nanking and other tragedies. Well ok. I still don't think when some people get free time they decide to research shit events to help increase their perception of sickening for the world.

No one can possibly be aware of tragedies that occurred from the beginning of time, even you. And no, they shouldn't spend their free time discovering more about tragedies. There is no point to that. Instead of spending hours online to discover why the world is such a cruel place, they should go out there and try, in any way they can, to make it better.

I never said 9/11 wasn't terrible? And it's nice to see you agree!

I've been agreeing from my first post. You were too blinded by anger to see that.

Closed minded people never change their views and opinions even when debating. They come in knowing they'll come out with the same views because anything that challenges them to think too much in a way they haven't thought of something before means they need to look away and look at words differently.

So yes, I'm saying you are pretty closed minded if you haven't thought of things in at least one way differently.

My stance as in "should all tragedies be treated equally (including 9/11)." That hasn't changed because we were both arguing for the same side. If you call this close-minded then you are, again, a hypocrite, because your stance is the same as mine, and that hasn't changed either. The other points of debate that has spawned from this basic idea have been evolving for both of us throughout the debate. It's your fault if you lack the perception to see that.

I can say the same thing about you? It doesn't fucking mean anything. That's you're way of saying, "Because you don't agree with my opinions you OBVIOUSLY aren't paying attention because I'm so fucking right that I've never been wrong about a single debate in my life. Yeah, I'm pretty badass."

No, if you had written those words, that's what you would have meant. In my mind, writing those words was my way of saying that you were (are?) so angry you failed to see that we are agreeing, even when I pointed it out, clearly, in my very first post.

Except you aren't badass. You're not completely right on everything. I might not be right on certain things. Then again that doesn't mean anything either because all of this comes down to opinions and debating emotional reasons and our philosophies on things. There is no real right or wrong really. You don't even see that.

Um, obviously. Everyone has a different set of moral, from which 'right' and 'wrong' are created. I'm trying to show you what is my 'right,' which I believe is 'righter' than your 'right.'

Lol, whatever you say. When I read books I only read it so I can make up my own plot. I never actually read them, I just read what I want to read. This is sarcasm.

When you read something that you think differs from what you believe and you're ridiculously angry, you twist the words you read around, in order to find a reason to express your rage, even if it is over nothing.

I wouldn't call it desensitized. Plus, over time, all humans will learn what it's like to watch everyone die. Richey Edwards had some quote about how he viewed that the meaning of life is death itself; that it's the end of everything, we slowly grow up losing everything close to us, see death on tv, see death in tragedies, everyone is fucking dying, then you die.
The people I know personally who have died, I still think about them, not in a mourning way, but the times I had with them. I'm not fucking desensitized. I think about my friend Dasen almost every damn day.

Becoming desensitized is a natural defense against pain. You may be self-aware enough to ensure that you don't become indifferent from pain, despite having suffered a lot of it, but your personal reaction to pain and death isn't applicable to the majority. There are many people who see so many horrors and have experienced so much pain that they don't feel the pain of tragedies as strongly as those tragedies deserve.

My point is don't become indifferent to death simply because you have experienced it or felt the pain of it.

Why would you even say any of that if you donate money to those children? Do you realize how fucking douchey that is even if it's sarcasm? Do you not feel bad at all for saying that garbage? You have to admit, what you said is fucking garbage, right? Or are you that objectively correct on everything you can't even admit that THAT is garbage either?

I don't feel bad at all because I was well aware of how cruel those words were. That is why I chose them. I wanted you to be aware of the magnitude of what you were saying, so I picked the most striking thing I could think of. There's no reason for me to feel bad if I'm well aware of what I was saying, and secure in the knowledge that I myself don't subscribe to a single word of it, and actively fight against those philosophies as well.

Fuckin A. There's always many people to blame too. Don't blame THE people? So don't blame Al Quida for blowing up the WTC? Ok, I won't. (sarcasm)

Your analogy is stupid at best. A good analogy to what I was saying is something along the lines of "don't blame Muslims, blame Al Quida." The majority of this population have no control over the actions of the media. If you feel that the media is doing something you disagree with, blame the media for it, not the people who are commemorating.

Well too bad! Unfortunately, you pretty much fueled up the anger from that.

That's exactly my point. I simply brought up rape and openly said I didn't put it there to aggravate you, and you got angry over that. What on earth is insulting in saying I said something not to hurt you, but to prove my point?

You're kidding right? You don't think Kaczynski, a man fueled by rage, didn't have reasons and a good debate for the things he did, his crimes against humanity? He wrote a fucking manifesto over it. All because I have tons of anger doesn't mean I can't debate. In fact, I think it's important to get angry once in a while!

You can debate with anger. However you can't debate with complete objectivity when you are angry, since you already have some prejudice against that person, which is what is often a cause behind the anger.

And for the record, if I had written that about Kaczynski, and you were the one commenting, you'd have another one of your explosions and say that I was a cruel evil monster because I'm supporting a guy who killed innocent people, and you'd probably quote it seven times, curse excessively, and then scream out that you can't even continue debating because you're in such a state.


GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK

Traumatized? Do you know how serious that word is? Do you get nightmares of debates, triggers of debates, hurt yourself over debates, cry and blame yourself over debates?
Speaking from someone that actually has PTSD, that just fueled my fucking anger again.
You showed your psychologist this thread and said, "Here, this is what is traumatizing me" then she replies, "This is self destructive"?

Fuck you. Not only do you not know the meaning of trauma, you're also a hypocritical asshole.

"Psychological trauma is the personal experience or witnessing of a highly stressful event in which:
The individual is overwhelmed and unable to cope with his/her emotional reaction to the event, or
The individual experiences an intense fear, helplessness, loss of control, or threat to life or bodily integrity.
Thus, psychological trauma is caused by experiencing a traumatic event that overwhelms a person’s ability to cope and leaves them fearing death, bodily injury, or psychological damage"

How dare you trivialize my pain! That is the cruelest thing you've written. I don't need to spill my darkest secrets to fucking prove to you that I've been traumatized, you psychopathic asswipe. How would you like it if when you admitted that you were raped, I had said "boohoo you whiny bitch, you were not raped you're just looking for attention and sympathy." That's the equivalent to what you just did to me, and I'd never EVER do that to you, or anyone. Fuck you.

Mourning over things that didn't affect you for a long period over time while not paying attention or caring about anything else that's bad that has and is happening in the world is dumb.

And as I've said multiple times, mourning happens directly after the event, and often on anniversaries of the event. Most of the other times it's remembering, and 'feeling bad,' which isn't the crushing pain you feel when you mourn.

Thank you, therapist. We all know people with different view of emotions can never think right, meaning I must be wrong. /sarcasm
Then again I am started Outpatient treatment on Saturday, which I'm going to mention in a thread quite soon after I'm done with this debate.
Wait, weren't you just saying you were traumatized by debating? Isn't that sort of hypocritical towards this all?

I have a distorted view of debating, not emotions, because of my bad experiences with that, so if we were debating over debating itself (as in it's worth), I wouldn't comment, because I know my opinions on that area are heavily prejudiced.

Choosing what you want over your death isn't fair? So it's not fair if I said, "Don't take a shit on my corpse and throw my body off a fucking plane when I'm dead?" Yet you say you respect death, but don't respect the person's wishes when they die. It's their death, THEIR DEATH. It should be about THEM. You owe them that.

Forcing people not to mourn would negatively affect them, force them to deny the pain they feel at your death, which is why it's cruel and unfair to them. But like I said, do what you want. I disagree with it, and I'd never ask that of anyone, but it's your life/death.

It's not a bad thing to try debating different things from time to time.

This debate isn't "from time to time." At this point in my life I don't have the time to debate five other topics and write long, thoughtful responses to them.

Probably. You're probably getting a lot more positive feedback then me, the guy who's being called a faggot who's anti american.

Someone actually said you're a faggot who's anti american?

Because you're right, I'm wrong, they're wrong if they disagree, your views are the the best, my views are the worst, bla bla. NO! NO NO NO! You don't get what debating really is then. You're not some God being that knows everything correctly. Admit you can be wrong at times, call yourself out on shit, open your skull.

I believe my opinion is right. That is why it's my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm not open to other opinions, it means that to change my opinion would require strong evidence for the other opinion, because I've already got strong evidence for the opinions I already have. If I'm unsure of something and haven't clarified my opinion on the topic yet, I won't comment on it.

Yes, there are worse things, people need to realize them, and I want people to treat them all equally. That isn't a dumb concept, even if it's not completely right.

It is completely right, and that is what I agree with you with, but that point wasn't what I was talking about. My problem was that 1. you put your views in the wrong place, and in that thread it was disrespectful and rude, 2. You were bashing 9/11 as if it wasn't as important as other tragedies and 3. You believe that it has to be all or nothing-mourn all or mourn none, and I disagree. Then as this debate progressed more areas of dispute arose, like the very definition of the word mourning, and whether most Americans are faking their pain over 9/11 etc.

That's why debating with you is pointless. You can't ever let yourself be wrong or view thing differently because you're so stuck in this view that you're always right. It's pathetic. I'll never like anyone who thinks like that.

For goodness sakes, I said I agree with you, and that's why on the main point of our debate, if you agree with yourself, then you can't disagree with me. So if I'm always stuck on this belief, then so are you.

And do you really think I care if you like me?? If I did I'd be bashing myself and proclaiming that you, the great deadpie, is always right, and that everything you do is practically godly. I'm well aware that disputing you're opinion isn't the way to make friends with you. And somehow (sarcasm), I'm ok with that.

No? I don't think that UK person whoever it was that felt bad over 9/11 was lying. Where would you get that from?

You are constantly arguing under the assumption that people who commemorate 9/11 when they have had no personal losses from 9/11 are doing it for selfish reasons. So I asked you if some of the people who commented who didn't appear to be personally affected were all lying.

I respect the people who were literally hurt by it, including every other hurt human being in the world.

If you respect them, don't infringe on their ability to mourn and/or commemorate because you want people to be more aware of other tragedies. As in, don't say this stuff in a tribute thread.

I'd like it better if people cared about everything though. People should be more open minded on things. Is it bad for me to pissed that people aren't giving a shit about other things?

No, it's not bad. It bothers me too. A lot, actually. But you make it sound like 9/11 should be downgraded on the tragedy 'scale,' instead of all other tragedies being upgraded.

Bullshit. Complete bullshit. That Somalia thing wouldn't possibly get more than ten minutes of importance on a news station like fox news.

I saw that on abc. But really, the media and it's biases is a completely different debate..

Most people are. I have to ask them, see if they care, try to get people to care about other things. I want everyone to be equally be respected. I believe in emotional symmetry, which sounds like it means absolutely nothing, but it means something to me.

I applaud you for that, for trying to raise awareness. But you're basing your argument on your personal experiences, which isn't applicable to the entire world.

Now who's the immature angry traumatized by a debate person who's saying shut up now? Ha! This is what eventually happens to all who debate me. They get pretty pissed off.

I said that as advice, not anger. Mockingly pointing out that I have the ability to adjust my views is not helpful.

Are you trying to make me feel bad still? It's not going to work. Traumatized by debating. For fucks sake. People are traumatized by everything now. But when it comes to child sexual abuse of a troop that had to kill someone to protect someone else, well, they don't matter, do they? Those topics are just too controversial and need to hidden under the rug.

Fuck you. Get the fuck over yourself.

But it is linked in some sense. 9/11 victims died, families effected look for a way to deal with it directly, they do so, end of story. There's a link I just formed, along with the few you haven't notice that we've discussed, which kind of says you don't even know what you're saying when you're debating because you don't even get how things can be linked when sounding off.

You could probably link anything if you really wanted to. I said "directly related," not linked.

Are you sure about that? Sometimes you really have to repeat things for people to listen to. I thought that's what teachers do exactly to 11 year old students who don't pay attention in class? I had to make sure people really realized how dumb that was, what you said.

Saying that you celebrate the life the dead lived is not in any way 'dumb.'

Depends on what the popularity contest is over. I don't know if you get this, probably because you're new or something, but I'm quite a fucking hated user on here. Shouldn't that be sort of obvious? I'm confrontational, honest, and quite rude at times.

Maybe you have been here too long and have met too many people who dislike you who come and go, but you are not hated by this site in general.

Fix it then. Like I give a shit that you think you're a nobody user. You can definitely be someone.

I'm fine with me to be a nobody here. Social status doesn't mean much to me on a website like this, where I'm completely anonymous. But, well, thanks for giving a shit, I guess...

I'm sure you've gotten more rep over me from this debate because of your patience and willing to not be pissed off. That's a good thing. You're definitely the better user out of the two of us, but I still think my views make more sense then yours and my debate is better, no matter how angry I sound.

Fair enough.

@FaithAndTrust-you're right. But it's hard for me to just stop and let myself be grievously insulted and very misinterpreted without defending or explaining myself.

[Magus]

Since Mr. Tim won't be around here, I will take over it now.

Yes it is worse than what I did, which wasn't bad at all. The thread was meant to commemorate, and pictures are ways to commemorate. If there was a thread commemorating the victims in Hiroshima, I'd post pictures of the tragedy as well.No, you wouldn't.

I wouldn't say "people always makes such a big deal out of Hiroshima instead of everything else in the world" like you did, because it is both not the point, and cruel.People don't make a big fuss on Hiroshima. People barely knows what Hiroshima means now a days. But some of us very will know what that Hiroshima actually meant.



At the beginning of this debate you were arguing that people are moaning over 9/11, and you bashed 9/11, as if it wasn't as important as all the other tragedies you wanted people to remember.That's not what the point of the debate is.

He actually pointed out that people really make, Americans and Non-Americans, a big fuss out of 9/11, and nearly forgets real tragedies. Massacres, killings, bombings -- many can be named.

All should have equal amount of silence time, but that's not happening.


You also supported Electric Nomads's post in which he said that he doesn't have any pity for the 9/11 victims at all, and said something along the lines of "they deserved it."

First of all, I did say I don't pity any dead. Whether 9/11, or Nanking or Sabra and Shatila Massacre -- not even my Home Town's massacre. Why would I? Unlike some people who do act like they pity the victims -- that's what irks me.

And where did I say they deserved it? I really want to know the exact spot where i even implied that.

These two strongly suggested that you don't believe 9/11 is as much of a tragedy as others.We differ in opinions. But we agree some of the things. Plus, he made it clear that he cares about 9/11, as much as he cares of other tragedies, but he doesn't act all patriotic about 9/11.



It's a perfectly valid question based on your words in previous posts. You want everyone to feel these tragedies, to really be aware of them and strongly bothered by them. Yet at the same time you say that people who were not personally affected shouldn't be mourning, shouldn't be making a 'big deal,' because you're convinced they are doing it for selfish reasons. I am trying to make sense of this.

What he tries to say is that people should realize the tragedies. And it doesn't matter whether they feel it or not. For example, I don't. But I acknowledge the tragedies that happened. It was a terrible lose. But I don't go crying why all that happened. Shit happens.


So you feel this way because you think it's offensive. You know what's more offensive? You going to a tribute and whining that there were worse tragedies. Now that's disrespectful.You missed the point again.

And earlier, when I said it saddened me that a girl who commented in the depression section that her grandfather died in 9/11 might see your post, you said "Guess what? That's life." You are being far more offensive than those 'faking it.'Yes, that's life. People die. We all die. We might be killed the next moment. If we read my posts, that's what I said -- this moment you are smiling, the next your face covered by ash. Your father's and mother's, in another word your dears ones, remnants. Shit happens every day in my neighboring country, my own country, too.

It's not disrespectful to tell people that they are going to die eventually, in one way or the other.


And the fact that the world is shittier than shit makes it wrong for people to mourn certain shitty events because there are shittier ones? This the third time.



Mourning and 'feeling bad' are not the same. Feeling bad is essentially remembering, and when you remember something terrible, you 'feel bad' about it. Mourning, and grief are far more painful than thatThat's your definition.


Don't hold people accountable if they don't do this. I feel bad for the people who die before their time etc, but I don't mourn it. As for people who plainly die, I don't feel bad for them, only the people left behind. Dying of old age is not a bad thing, it's setting the person free, in my eyes.....

No one can possibly be aware of tragedies that occurred from the beginning of time, even you. And no, they shouldn't spend their free time discovering more about tragedies. There is no point to that. Instead of spending hours online to discover why the world is such a cruel place, they should go out there and try, in any way they can, to make it better. I have to agree this. Instead of posting online, maybe I should go to AL-Qaeda and tell them to stop. That'll do it.


I've been agreeing from my first post. You were too blinded by anger to see that.I am not.


My stance as in "should all tragedies be treated equally (including 9/11)." That hasn't changed because we were both arguing for the same side. If you call this close-minded then you are, again, a hypocrite, because your stance is the same as mine, and that hasn't changed either. The other points of debate that has spawned from this basic idea have been evolving for both of us throughout the debate. It's your fault if you lack the perception to see that. What the hell is this?


No, if you had written those words, that's what you would have meant. In my mind, writing those words was my way of saying that you were (are?) so angry you failed to see that we are agreeing, even when I pointed it out, clearly, in my very first post.You are not agreeing, you are missing the point.


Um, obviously. Everyone has a different set of moral, from which 'right' and 'wrong' are created. I'm trying to show you what is my 'right,' which I believe is 'righter' than your 'right.'Which you believe. I don't believe what you believe. What are you going to do about that?

When you read something that you think differs from what you believe and you're ridiculously angry, you twist the words you read around, in order to find a reason to express your rage, even if it is over nothing.Why am I even quoting this.

Becoming desensitized is a natural defense against pain. You may be self-aware enough to ensure that you don't become indifferent from pain, despite having suffered a lot of it, but your personal reaction to pain and death isn't applicable to the majority. There are many people who see so many horrors and have experienced so much pain that they don't feel the pain of tragedies as strongly as those tragedies deserve.You are wrong on those two accounts. People who saw tragedy continue to suffer, and even until they have a mental breakdown. Their feeling will not be desensitized, they become more sensitive to it.

My point is don't become indifferent to death simply because you have experienced it or felt the pain of it.WHY WHY!

I don't feel bad at all because I was well aware of how cruel those words were. That is why I chose them. I wanted you to be aware of the magnitude of what you were saying, so I picked the most striking thing I could think of. There's no reason for me to feel bad if I'm well aware of what I was saying, and secure in the knowledge that I myself don't subscribe to a single word of it, and actively fight against those philosophies as well. dis is deep.

Your analogy is stupid at best. A good analogy to what I was saying is something along the lines of "don't blame Muslims, blame Al Quida." Mine would be "Don't Blame Al-Quid? Al-Qaeda, blame Islam-fascism."

The majority of this population have no control over the actions of the media. If you feel that the media is doing something you disagree with, blame the media for it, not the people who are commemorating.It's called propaganda.

That's exactly my point. I simply brought up rape and openly said I didn't put it there to aggravate you, and you got angry over that. What on earth is insulting in saying I said something not to hurt you, but to prove my point?lol wut

You can debate with anger. However you can't debate with complete objectivity when you are angry, since you already have some prejudice against that person, which is what is often a cause behind the anger.I am not angry. I even like you. ;)


And for the record, if I had written that about Kaczynski, and you were the one commenting, you'd have another one of your explosions and say that I was a cruel evil monster because I'm supporting a guy who killed innocent people, and you'd probably quote it seven times, curse excessively, and then scream out that you can't even continue debating because you're in such a state. That Kaczynski dude sounds Polish.

Fuck you. Not only do you not know the meaning of trauma, you're also a hypocritical asshole. Exactly. People don't desensitize, they will have a trauma.

How dare you trivialize my pain! That is the cruelest thing you've written. I don't need to spill my darkest secrets to fucking prove to you that I've been traumatized, you psychopathic asswipe. How would you like it if when you admitted that you were raped, I had said "boohoo you whiny bitch, you were not raped you're just looking for attention and sympathy." That's the equivalent to what you just did to me, and I'd never EVER do that to you, or anyone. Fuck you. You think Tim never went to the same things as you did? I think he did, and I think that's why he is here in VT.

And as I've said multiple times, mourning happens directly after the event, and often on anniversaries of the event. Most of the other times it's remembering, and 'feeling bad,' which isn't the crushing pain you feel when you mourn.More about the definition.

I have a distorted view of debating, not emotions, because of my bad experiences with that, so if we were debating over debating itself (as in it's worth), I wouldn't comment, because I know my opinions on that area are heavily prejudiced.I guess I am addicted to quoting.

Forcing people not to mourn would negatively affect them, force them to deny the pain they feel at your death, which is why it's cruel and unfair to them. But like I said, do what you want. I disagree with it, and I'd never ask that of anyone, but it's your life/death. People usually morn their loved one most. Not some people that had been in the wrong time in the wrong place.

This debate isn't "from time to time." At this point in my life I don't have the time to debate five other topics and write long, thoughtful responses to them.You are so deep.

Someone actually said you're a faggot who's anti american?I cried laughing.

I believe my opinion is right. That is why it's my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm not open to other opinions, it means that to change my opinion would require strong evidence for the other opinion, because I've already got strong evidence for the opinions I already have. If I'm unsure of something and haven't clarified my opinion on the topic yet, I won't comment on it.Opinions are biases.

It is completely right, and that is what I agree with you with, but that point wasn't what I was talking about. My problem was that 1. you put your views in the wrong place, and in that thread it was disrespectful and rude, 2. You were bashing 9/11 as if it wasn't as important as other tragedies and 3. You believe that it has to be all or nothing-mourn all or mourn none, and I disagree. Then as this debate progressed more areas of dispute arose, like the very definition of the word mourning, and whether most Americans are faking their pain over 9/11 etc.

1. I don't share my views, yet.
2. I did not bash 9/11. And I consider it a tragedy, but I don't exaggerate because it is a tragedy.
3. I believe all tragedies should recognized and voiced, if not mourned. Most Americans are nationalistic patriots-whence why they have to do what they have to do, i,e, exaggerate the incident of 9/11--and I have posted the reasons earlier in.

For goodness sakes, I said I agree with you, and that's why on the main point of our debate, if you agree with yourself, then you can't disagree with me. So if I'm always stuck on this belief, then so are you.You are not agreeing, you are missing the point, or maybe you don't. I don't know.

And do you really think I care if you like me?? If I did I'd be bashing myself and proclaiming that you, the great deadpie, is always right, and that everything you do is practically godly. I'm well aware that disputing you're opinion isn't the way to make friends with you. And somehow (sarcasm), I'm ok with that.You don't need deadpie. You need electric nomad to guide you.

You are constantly arguing under the assumption that people who commemorate 9/11 when they have had no personal losses from 9/11 are doing it for selfish reasons.YES! You are very near to the point.

So I asked you if some of the people who commented who didn't appear to be personally affected were all lying.Everyone lies, honey.

If you respect them, don't infringe on their ability to mourn and/or commemorate because you want people to be more aware of other tragedies. As in, don't say this stuff in a tribute thread.We wanted to point out some stuff in those tribute thread. And we did so.

No, it's not bad. It bothers me too. A lot, actually. But you make it sound like 9/11 should be downgraded on the tragedy 'scale,' instead of all other tragedies being upgraded.It won't help. Americans(Those heavy nationalistic patriotic ones, which constitute more than half of Amerikha) have a certain mentality that obstructs that basic goal.

I saw that on abc. But really, the media and it's biases is a completely different debate..Huh?

I applaud you for that, for trying to raise awareness. But you're basing your argument on your personal experiences, which isn't applicable to the entire world.Like you did above?

I said that as advice, not anger. Mockingly pointing out that I have the ability to adjust my views is not helpful.Huh#2?

Fuck you. Get the fuck over yourself.Not cool hombre, not cool.

You could probably link anything if you really wanted to. I said "directly related," not linked.Oh...

Saying that you celebrate the life the dead lived is not in any way 'dumb.'
Huh#3?

Maybe you have been here too long and have met too many people who dislike you who come and go, but you are not hated by this site in general.Oh, there are many who actually hates him. And many that pretends to like him. And many that pretends to follow his footsteps. Me? I only have a couple of common things we share. Is all. Mine and his view of the world differs drastically.

I'm fine with me to be a nobody here. Social status doesn't mean much to me on a website like this, where I'm completely anonymous. But, well, thanks for giving a shit, I guess...You are correct. Social statuses means nothing. You are 100% right.

[Eagle1]

And eagle1 i'm not going to even reply to you because you piss me off enough.

Thats not very mature of you seeing as how I responded to your bitterness in a respectful way and I admitted I was wrong. But hey you have the right to be an asshole so who am I to say what you can and can't do.

I do recommend you see a psychologist though, you seem to have some anger management issues.You also seem to love cussing way too much. But I am not a medical professional so what do I know.

I hope you live out a happy life.:bye:(you're going on my ignore list)

In other news I see this thread getting :locked: soon
This is the last post I am ever making in this section.

[deadpie]

Thats not very mature of you

because anti american faggot is so much more mature and I should put up with the garbage you say to me.

I do recommend you see a psychologist though

Please, for the love of fuck, fuck off.

Also lilys you'll have to deal with Faris now. I won't have the time to debate with you or talk to anyone on this site.

[Magus]

Thats not very mature of you seeing as how I responded to your bitterness in a respectful way and I admitted I was wrong. But hey you have the right to be an asshole so who am I to say what you can and can't do.Cool story bro.

I do recommend you see a psychologist though, you seem to have some anger management issues.You also seem to love cussing way too much. But I am not a medical professional so what do I know.He doesn't need a psychologist. We all love cussing, don't we? I even don't doubt that the first word made was a cuss. It's in our genes.

I hope you live out a happy life.You, too, honey.

:bye:(you're going on my ignore list)Oho, we really do care about that! Oh no, Eagle is going to put Tim in his ignore list! That's big shit going on! This will rock the very basis of this forum! Oh, wait, it doesn't. And no body really cares.

In other news I see this thread getting :locked: soonThis is a debating thread. If it becomes a flame war and caught the attention of the mod, it will get locked. If the OP wants it locked, it will get locked. These are two cases that this thread will get locked.

This is the last post I am ever making in this section.Too bad.

[Vonn]

Thats not very mature of you seeing as how I responded to your bitterness in a respectful way and I admitted I was wrong. But hey you have the right to be an asshole so who am I to say what you can and can't do.

I do recommend you see a psychologist though, you seem to have some anger management issues.You also seem to love cussing way too much. But I am not a medical professional so what do I know.

I hope you live out a happy life.:bye:(you're going on my ignore list)

In other news I see this thread getting :locked: soon
This is the last post I am ever making in this section.

Well this post wasn't very respectful.

@Electric Nomad It's nice to see someone else is willing to tackle these ridiculously long posts, but all those "Huh"s and otherwise short, useless comments don't really do much.

[Malcolm Tucker]

Okay that's it. Last chance people. Either debate properly and stop insulting eachother, or the thread is locked. Anyone who is considering posting here be wary of that.

[Magus]

Electric Nomad It's nice to see someone else is willing to tackle these ridiculously long posts, but all those "Huh"s and otherwise short, useless comments don't really do much.I did so because they are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Those three-liners that I had "huh" as answer because they are not directed to the topic, but at Tim--if you read it again, you will see what I mean.