Abortion

[Dive to Survive]

Now I know this is a really heated debate but it still amazes me that it's even a problem! If murder is illegal why isn't abortion illegal? And if child abuse is illegal, then why isn't abortion? Abortion is the most severe form of child abuse and yet it's legal? It boggles my mind!

[AppealToReason]

...how is abortion child abuse?
Seriously, first time I've ever heard it called that. :rolleyes:

[Amnesiac]

Now I know this is a really heated debate but it still amazes me that it's even a problem! If murder is illegal why isn't abortion illegal? And if child abuse is illegal, then why isn't abortion? Abortion is the most severe form of child abuse and yet it's legal? It boggles my mind!

Because the individual rights of a woman trump the "individual" rights of a non-living fetus. Without abortion rights, this country would simply go to hell. You either have safe, legalized abortion or illegal, dangerous backdoor abortion. The damage to individual rights and society in general would be catastrophic.

Abortion is not murder, because the fetus is not an independently living human being, and it is not child abuse, since fetuses are not children.

[Jess]

how the hell is it child abuse? it is NOT

abortion is a woman's right. I don't want anyone telling me that I shouldn't have an abortion if I want one. and if the woman was raped, she most certainly deserves the right to an abortion

[CaptainObvious]

Now I know this is a really heated debate but it still amazes me that it's even a problem! If murder is illegal why isn't abortion illegal? And if child abuse is illegal, then why isn't abortion? Abortion is the most severe form of child abuse and yet it's legal? It boggles my mind!

fetuses aren't people. murder involves killing a person; child abuse involves abusing a person. fetuses have none of the aspects of personhood.

[Angel Androgynous]

[-]Keep calm, Ida... don't start yelling... keep calm...[/-]
If I had an unwanted pregnancy, I sure as hell will get rid of it... A fetus isn't a human. You can't just trample all over a woman's rights like that. She is a human being, not a fucking machine. Who the fuck are you to tell us, women, that we have to go through nine months of morning sickness, cramps, pains, migraines, and weight gain, just to painfully give birth to a child we don't want? The adoption system is corrupted anyway.... You're a male, you're never gonna get pregnant... and if a woman is against abortion, it's simple... don't fucking get one.

[Efflorescence]

How is it that the woman has a choice to kill her baby but the baby has no choice whether to live or die? Why does a HUMAN BEING (after fertilization takes place, a new human being forms because if it is not a human being, than what is it? And when does it become a human being?) have to stay there while he's being KILLED, feel the pain and then gets to be thrown in garbage bags like a piece of rotten meat???????? No, I'm pro-life and pro-choice but pro-choice for the baby....... if the woman's raped it's not her fault but it's NOT the fetuse's fault either........it's funny how if the woman kills her rapist she gets arrested but killing an innocent human being is legal....very funny indeed..........

[MalditoDia]

How is it that the woman has a choice to kill her baby but the baby has no choice whether to live or die? Why does a HUMAN BEING (after fertilization takes place, a new human being forms because if it is not a human being, than what is it? And when does it become a human being?) have to stay there while he's being KILLED, feel the pain and then gets to be thrown in garbage bags like a piece of rotten meat???????? No, I'm pro-life and pro-choice but pro-choice for the baby....... if the woman's raped it's not her fault but it's NOT the fetuse's fault either........it's funny how if the woman kills her rapist she gets arrested but killing an innocent human being is legal....very funny indeed.......... i like that. I thought once yo sperm got her egg and it became a fetus it was human. It didnt do nothing to be placed in her stomach but it did by them. If i ever got a girl pregnant and she was talkin bout abortions i go crazy on her.

[AppealToReason]

i like that. I thought once yo sperm got her egg and it became a fetus it was human. It didnt do nothing to be placed in her stomach but it did by them. If i ever got a girl pregnant and she was talkin bout abortions i go crazy on her.


You would go crazy on her? For what? Talking about the choices she has? That's stupid.

[dontcare97]

Abortion isn't child abuse since the fetus isn't a person yet. It's cruel tot he child but it's a woman's body and right. Who are we to say a woman can't get rid of some that's part of her? Cutting off one's arm isn't illegal even thou it's alive with millions of cells.

What if a mother's health was involved and the child had a low chance of survival?We let the mother bleed out to death just so a preemie can die over night? what of victims of rape? They already had their rights taken from them by not having control or will of their own body. Now they are forced to push out a child they don't want?

Adoption for unwanted kids aren't good, Kids are sometimes abused at foster homes or force through the adoption system until they are 18 years old. If the woman keeps the child, she might not be able to provide for it. A one parent house with burdened kids won't last long, especially if that parent has a low income.

Also murder is legal. Ever heard of the death penalty? 34 out of 50 states have them. I'm not saying abortion should be the cure all birth control pill but it's a woman's right ot have control of her own body. she should have the say of what she wants to do. Not you or the government. Making abortion illegal is infringing on someone elses freedom of body.

[Efflorescence]

Oh she has loads of choices but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're all good....if I ever got raped, you know what would be my choice? I would have my baby, MY INNOCENT SON/DAUGHTER because just as my mother gave me the chance to live, then I think that I have the OBLIGATION to give another person the chance to live too....then I would hunt my ******* rapist down......I think that they should make abortion illegal but killing rapists legal...........now that's what I call FAIR......hmmmm

[AppealToReason]

Oh she has loads of choices but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're all good....if I ever got raped, you know what would be my choice? I would have my baby, MY INNOCENT SON/DAUGHTER because just as my mother gave me the chance to live, then I think that I have the OBLIGATION to give another person the chance to live too....then I would hunt my ******* rapist down......I think that they should make abortion illegal but killing rapists legal...........now that's what I call FAIR......hmmmm

That is YOU. A woman may not want to go through the experience of having a baby especially if she was raped. She should have the choice to NOT have the baby. She shouldn't be forced to keep it. Not everyone will share the same views as you.






Adoption for unwanted kids aren't good, Kids are sometimes abused at foster homes or force through the adoption system until they are 18 years old. If the woman keeps the child, she might not be able to provide for it. A one parent house with three kids won't last long, especially if that parent has a low income.

Also murder is legal. Ever heard of the death penalty? 34 out of 50 states have them. I'm not saying abortion should be the cure all birth control pill but it's a woman's right ot have control of her own body. she should have the say of what she wants to do. Not you or the government. Making abortion illegal is infringing on someone elses freedom of body.

I know many won't, and many see adoption as some magical fix to an unwanted child, but completely I agree with this.

[Efflorescence]

I'm sorry 'don'tcare97" but I think you have a problem with your biology....a hand is not alive because....it doesn't respire, it doesn't feed, it doesn't excrete on its own...however a fetus does all of that...so pls know your facts before you talk.....

[dontcare97]

Oh she has loads of choices but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're all good....if I ever got raped, you know what would be my choice? I would have my baby, MY INNOCENT SON/DAUGHTER because just as my mother gave me the chance to live, then I think that I have the OBLIGATION to give another person the chance to live too....then I would hunt my ******* rapist down......I think that they should make abortion illegal but killing rapists legal...........now that's what I call FAIR......hmmmm

True, but that is you. some woman couldn't deal with that. Just because you personally wouldn't do it does that mean it shouldn't be legal? If the woman has the baby and keeps it she might abuse it or neglect it because it reminds her of a horrible trauma. Rape is abuse and everyone takes abuse differently. Something like this should be up to the individual, not a government power, religion, or any outside source. It's the mom's right.

I'm sorry 'don'tcare97" but I think you have a problem with your biology....a hand is not alive because....it doesn't respire, it doesn't feed, it doesn't excrete on its own...however a fetus does all of that...so pls know your facts before you talk.....

I'm saying that an arm is apart of a person and is not a living being but it has living parts like a fetus. If the fetus was taken away form it source, it wouldn't grow or feed on it's own. Like the arm, it will die I know arms aren't people.

[Efflorescence]

So I have a child, and something happens to me which makes it impossible not to neglect or abuse the child...let's say I begin suffering from sever depression and I have a four year old...is it ok to kill him then so that he wouldn't be neglected? It's ridiculous and I would get arrested.........so...and when a mom has a baby...you have two persons there just like in the case of SIAMESE TWINS.....ONE BODY BUT 2 PERSONS

so let's say I have a 4 year old and suddenly I begin suffering from depression right? So I begin to neglect and abuse my child...does that give me the right to kill him so that he would not get abused and neglected? I would get ARRESTED....
SEcondly, your example of the death penalty is ridiculous...dealth penalty is given to persons who deserve it not to innocent human beings..........
Thirdly...you keep saying that it's 'her own body'....well you keep forgetting that there are 2 persons there just like in the case of SIAMESE tWINS....one body but 2 persons.......GET IT?

[AppealToReason]

so let's say I have a 4 year old and suddenly I begin suffering from depression right? So I begin to neglect and abuse my child...does that give me the right to kill him so that he would not get abused and neglected? I would get ARRESTED....
SEcondly, your example of the death penalty is ridiculous...dealth penalty is given to persons who deserve it not to innocent human beings..........
Thirdly...you keep saying that it's 'her own body'....well you keep forgetting that there are 2 persons there just like in the case of SIAMESE tWINS....one body but 2 persons.......GET IT?

Tone it down, you're coming off as rude.

[Efflorescence]

erm....sorry.......but sometimes I get really passionate...however the sixth post on this page.....now THAT's what I call rude...but sorry I didn't mean to offend anybody.......

[dontcare97]

So I have a child, and something happens to me which makes it impossible not to neglect or abuse the child...let's say I begin suffering from sever depression and I have a four year old...is it ok to kill him then so that he wouldn't be neglected? It's ridiculous and I would get arrested.........so...and when a mom has a baby...you have two persons there just like in the case of SIAMESE TWINS.....ONE BODY BUT 2 PERSONS

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/human-beings/

Here is the legal definition of a human. Here are some key points:

-Humans have the highest brain to body mass ratio of all large animals.
-walk on two feet and have opposable thumbs
-Human beings are characterized by the ability to speak. They have a high capacity for abstract thinking and are commonly thought

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week

Here is the week by week play out of a pregnancy. A baby doesn't have any thoughts until month five and they don't have noticeable fingers until month three. Fetuses also can't feel pain until the third trimester, 28 weeks in. so abortion won't even hurt it.

Siamese twins don't have the same relationship a mother and an unborn child have. A mother grows the child because the baby is depended on her. Siamese twins are only depended on each other if there is one heart. Other than that, they are two separate beings being grown by a mother.

Also you keep talking about rape. what if a woman is has a pregnancy gone wrong? Who does the doctor save? The mother or the child who might not survive? In cases where the mother's health is at risk, who gets saved? Because without abortion, we would might lose both mother and child.

[AppealToReason]

It's not that you hurt anyone or did anything wrong really, it's just that these things can get out of hand really quickly...then a mod would have to get involved and all that.

Personally, I think this thread is pretty pointless. It's quite obvious that neither side will change their views no matter what anyone says, but it's fine if others want to continue.

[Efflorescence]

No...in our country...abortion is not legal but if the baby is going to harm the mother in some way...then there's nothing one can do but abort.....basically the mother kills the baby before the baby kills her but when the baby is not threatening the mother's life....the mother kills him and the baby cannot kill the mother before she kills him...that's the injustice here....

And....let's say that a baby is born without limbs and without the inability to speak.....does that mean he's not human? According to you, he's not human because he doesn't walk on two feet, he doesn't have the ability to speak etc......etc......so if I kill him, then I won't get arrested? Oh I would...(By the way I'm not being rude.....it's my way of debating lol...I have nothing against you as a person..........really...at school they call me 'The rebel' so......)

[dontcare97]

First off it's cool. I come off rude too, I like destroying my opponent at school so I get it.
That's just some key points. That person will still have brain function so no that would be wrong.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with right or wrong or what you ar me thinks. It is a mother choice what goes on in her body. Not your's. You can't kill someone that isn't depending on you body for life. Fetuses are apart of the woman. It's her choice and abortion gives her the right to do with it as she pleases.

I don't approve of pointless abortion. I don't like it when woman use it as a means of birth control when they are perfectly capable of providing a home and care for the child but don't want to because they don't like responsibility. That's me personally. Still my personally feelings about abortion shouldn't be law of the land nor should anyone else's for that matter.

It's about giving woman their own choices to do what they see fit for their future child. If you don't like abortion, okay. I can see why. You don't have to raise the child so you should have nothing to do with how it's dealt. It's the freedom to know you can that counts, whether you exercise that right or not.

[Angel Androgynous]

If you are against abortion, don't get one. It's simple. Let me do what I want with my body. If I don't want a parasite in me... then it's my business. If a fetus is a human, then it should function on its own outside of my body...oh wait...HA it fucking can't...means it's part of me...means I can do whatever the fuck I want. Besides, if you make abortion illegal, there will be other ways of women to terminate their pregnancies... which will be far more dangerous...

[Efflorescence]

I think that we have to agree to disagree then..........I think that freedom is important but freedom gives you the ability to do what you want but without hurting others....freedom is not 'doing what you want' fullstop.
If the fetus is part of the woman's body...then even the mother is part of the fetus' body in a way but just beacuse the mother is bigger and stronger, she gets to choose........that's the reason why the mother has that 'right' to kill her fragile, innocent son/daughter while still in the womb....... a 'right' that in my opinion she shouldn't have because she's killing a person....a body within her own body........which can feed, excrete and which studies have shown is also capable of sensing his/her mother's emotions from the womb http://www.cosmiccradle.com/pregnancy04.html

[dontcare97]

If you are against aborttion, don't get one. It's simple. Let me do what I want with my body. If I don't want a parasite in me... then it's my business. If a fetus is a human, then it should function on its own outside of my body...oh wait...HA it fucking can't...means it's part of me...means I can do whatever the fuck I want. Besides, if you make abortion illegal, there will be other ways of women to terminate their pregnancies... which will be far more dangerous...

My point to the t.

[Efflorescence]

And angel androgynous...don't be rude....I can be very rude as well and I can swear too you know but I don't think that there's any point in swearing here...if you view 'babies' as 'parasites' then that's your opinion...Abstinence is the word for you then......that way you can make sure that you will have no 'parasites' in your body (and by the way a parasite kills the host....a baby doesn'y so)

And the fact that the baby doesn't function outside your body doesn't make him 'not human'....that's not the definition of human, dude.

[Angel Androgynous]

Do whatever the hell you want... all I know is, that if I get an unwanted pregnancy... I sure as hell terminating it. Think about it...if a woman wasn't responsible enough to use protection, what the fuck makes you think that she's responsible for a child? Sorry if I come off as rude... I'm just very passionate on this subject. I don't want my rights trampled upon.

And women aren't made just to fucking pop babies out. If a guy can have sex with no worries of pregnancy, then so can I. Who are you to tell me that I have to suffer through nine months of migraines, vomiting, gaining weight, pains in my boobs, and painful birth...just to pop out a kid I don't fucking want?

Also, I said fetus not baby. There's a difference.

[Efflorescence]

And if a woman wasn't responsible enough to use protection, what the f*** makes you think that she shouldn't suffer the consequences and suck it up, not run away from the problem like a f*****coward?

[Angel Androgynous]

We make mistakes... and if my pregnancy is a mistake... then I will abort it... and it's none of your business. It's funny how pro lifers are all for the unborn....then after they are born, they don't give two shits.

"If your pre born, you're fine... if you're pre school, you're fucked!"
-George Carlin

[Efflorescence]

And who are you to tell a fetus that he hasn't got the right to live, just because his mother doesn't want nine months of bla, bla, bla.......huh? Who the hell are you to kill a fetus just because he's not wanted......who the hell are you to say that the fetus doesn't have rights as well?.......And who the hell are you to blame the fetus for being born and for his dad not wanting to be around him?

And it's funny how the said 'pro-choice' movement are all for the mother but don't give a crap about the fetus and it's funny how they say that the fetus is not human inside the womb.....but they still cannot explain how when the fetus is out of the womb, he/she SUDDENLY, MAGICALLY becomes human..........that is what's funny


Edit(Thor): Please don't double post, use the 'Edit' button next time you want to add something. Thanks.

[Angel Androgynous]

...so you'd rather me give birth to a child that I don't give two shits about and neglect it and have it suffer rather than just getting rid of it in the first few weeks of pregnancy? Dontcare has mentioned how corrupt adoption centers are already....

And it doesn't become human over night. If you haven't noticed, it takes 9 months. If a woman doesn't want it, she will abort it as soon as she finds out she's pregnant... which will be in the first few days to the first month of pregnancy.

[bigdaddy101]

ok random dude here I know how to make this right. If the fetus is about 2-3/4 developed then it is not cool to have an abortion. You should have it ASAP. Hopefully now you guys can be nice to each other and have an arguement but respect eachother's opinions!

[Efflorescence]

And at what month during those 9 months does the 'not human' become 'human'? Do you know? After 2 months, 3 months,4, 5? And what happens when it becomes human? Does he suddenly get a soul or what? I'm sorry but as I have said earlier I have to agree to disagree.........that's it.......we are both entitled to our opinion...abortion is legal in your country and there's nothing I can do about it whilst abortion is illegal in my country and there's nothing you can do about it.......

[Angel Androgynous]

Dontcare has explained when it becomes human. Yeah, there's nothing we can do about it... but this is a debate nonetheless.

[Genghis Khan]

Hey guys I respect everyone's opinion on this thread but if you're pro choice I'm clogging my ears and not addressing any of the points put forward what gives you the right to kill a human it's immoral and makes you a murderer -repeat this point over x10-

[aperson444]

Ah this again. I think abortion is perfectly fine. A fetus is connected to the mother until it is born. It is completely dependent on the mother. Can you take a fetus out of the uterus and place it somewhere else without killing it? Can you take a 1 week old child from its mother and give it to another? The answer is yes, but in the case of the fetus, we cannot. Also, is having sex with a pregnant woman child sexual abuse then? In that case, we have A LOT of child porn floating out on the internet. See what I mean here? I think that late term abortions are irresponsible, especially since the child is just starting to become conscious. However, early abortions are no different from removing a tumor or a finger. They are just a cluster of differentiating cells. At one point the nervous system becomes developed enough to "have" consciousness. Sensory input, thoughts and the such.

The truth is that the world is a very, very shitty place. Our population is high and we are running out of resources. We are also only human. Accidents happen. We know that even the Native Americans hundreds of years ago practiced abortion. The woman had a right to abort the fetus. Let's say we do make abortion illegal. That one fetus is born. Then what? Then who will take care of the child? A mother that doesn't want him/her? Is that healthy? Say the mother puts the child up for adoption. There are already thousands of children in the system. With our population growing, more and more children end up in the system. Who will adopt these children? Just because some people oppose abortion and their mother made an irresponsible choice doesn't mean the child should have to suffer not having a chance to ever have a true family. That's an emotional argument, just like the pro-life one.

[Angel Androgynous]

Another point I would like to address:
Is a fetus more important to you than a woman/girl/whatever the fuck has the ability to get pregnant?
Also, if you care so much about the unborn fetuses.... how about you volunteer to have them implanted into you? :D Since the fetuses are soooo important.

What's that?
It's her responsibility? Oh yes, because she totally made that baby by herself.
And you know what? Some responsibilities, we don't want to take.

When you are financially unstable with 3 kids... tell me how against abortion you are.

[Korashk]

A fetus isn't a human.
Yes they are. This is scientific fact.

How is it that the woman has a choice to kill her baby but the baby has no choice whether to live or die?
Becaue the mother isn't using the fetus's body to survive.

Why does a HUMAN BEING (after fertilization takes place, a new human being forms because if it is not a human being, than what is it? And when does it become a human being?) have to stay there while he's being KILLED, feel the pain and then gets to be thrown in garbage bags like a piece of rotten meat????????
The vast majority of abortions take place when the fetus is unable to survive outside of the womb. In a lot of those, the fetus isn't even being killed, just removed. Of course, it can't survive without its life support, so it dies, but that's life.

I'm sorry 'don'tcare97" but I think you have a problem with your biology....a hand is not alive because....it doesn't respire, it doesn't feed, it doesn't excrete on its own...however a fetus does all of that...so pls know your facts before you talk.....
This is true. Far enough along, a fetus will meet the scientific criteria for life even if it isn't born.

so let's say I have a 4 year old and suddenly I begin suffering from depression right? So I begin to neglect and abuse my child...does that give me the right to kill him so that he would not get abused and neglected? I would get ARRESTED....
Yeah, you would. That's because four year-olds are:

a) People
b) Not using the moher's body to survive

Thirdly...you keep saying that it's 'her own body'....well you keep forgetting that there are 2 persons there just like in the case of SIAMESE tWINS....one body but 2 persons.......GET IT?
There are not two persons involved with pregnancy. Fetuses aren't people.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/human-beings/

Here is the legal definition of a human. Here are some key points:
Legal definitions have very little place in discussions like this, especially for making assertions. It may partly involve the law, but it's more about morality/ethics. The legal definition of human might not apply to fetuses, but fetuses are human.

but when the baby is not threatening the mother's life....the mother kills him and the baby cannot kill the mother before she kills him...that's the injustice here....
Pregnancy threatens the mother's life 100% of the time. There is no such thing as safe pregnancy.

If you are against abortion, don't get one. It's simple. Let me do what I want with my body.
This response, and ones life it, are more of a cop-out than anything. "If you don't like it, don't get it" is a horrible talking point. "Don't like murder, don't commit it" is essentially what that means to the other side of the argument.

And if a woman wasn't responsible enough to use protection, what the f*** makes you think that she shouldn't suffer the consequences and suck it up, not run away from the problem like a f*****coward?
Protection isn't 100% effective.

And it's funny how the said 'pro-choice' movement are all for the mother but don't give a crap about the fetus and it's funny how they say that the fetus is not human inside the womb.....but they still cannot explain how when the fetus is out of the womb, he/she SUDDENLY, MAGICALLY becomes human..........that is what's funny[/color]
Rational arguments for the pro-choice side of the argument don't involve the fetus at all, regardless of how much the fetus is developed. For me, even if from the point of contraception on the fetus is a fully grown and functioning person I would be for abortion. This is because one person does not have the right to force another to do anything. In the situation of pregnancy, the mother is giving up her health and risking her life for the sake of the being growing inside of her. She has the right to revoke that offer.

If me and another person are in a car accident where neither of us are at fault, but his kidneys are damaged; is it okay for the doctors to take my kidney because I'm the only match that can be found in time for a transplant?

[CaptainObvious]

And at what month during those 9 months does the 'not human' become 'human'? Do you know? After 2 months, 3 months,4, 5? And what happens when it becomes human? Does he suddenly get a soul or what? I'm sorry but as I have said earlier I have to agree to disagree.........that's it.......we are both entitled to our opinion...abortion is legal in your country and there's nothing I can do about it whilst abortion is illegal in my country and there's nothing you can do about it.......

it's not about "not human" vs "human". there's lots of humans we fail to keep alive for the reason that they are no longer people (those in persistent vegetative state, for example). it's about "person" vs. "not person". a fetus is not a person until late in its development if at all, and therefore abortion is completely moral earlier term.

[Jupiter]

Now, it is the woman's choice. But.. If the woman was going around sleeping with people, she knows that consequence. For the love of... I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! You know those "fetus's" CAN FEEL IT?!?!?!?!?!?! Would you like to be killed by a vacuum, that sucks you into a blender thing. Yeah, I didn't think so. If you can't have the baby, dont have sex. If you were raped, have the baby. Put it up for adoption. Yeah, you can get raped, but kill something? It's like killing a pet. Some people do it, but I wouldn't.

[Jess]

Oh she has loads of choices but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're all good....if I ever got raped, you know what would be my choice? I would have my baby, MY INNOCENT SON/DAUGHTER because just as my mother gave me the chance to live, then I think that I have the OBLIGATION to give another person the chance to live too....then I would hunt my ******* rapist down......I think that they should make abortion illegal but killing rapists legal...........now that's what I call FAIR......hmmmm

well if you were raped you have the choice to have the baby or not. you would have it. it's YOUR choice

if I was raped, I would most likely have an abortion. that's MY choice

[User Deleted]

/thread that has been done before

I quote

If abortion is murderer, masturbation is genocide

this to kick things off, this ^^^

If a fetus knew as much as a fully grown child that would be different, but such a young child couldn't even grasp the concept life and death for one.

Two, if you were raped, it is definitely your choice to abort or not, you had no say in weather or not to be involved in sexual activity.

Three, if you cant care for a child, you cant care for it, that's that.

Now if you have a kid its not like I'm saying go and abort the child, boo overpopulation. If you want to have a kid, it is your choice to do so. You face the consequences. If having the child causes too much stress financially, time wise, ect. you can choose to abort. It is needed. And often a child would cause a great deal of stress and change in ones life. So it is the choice of the pregnant woman to have an abortion or not, and their choice alone.

[Angel Androgynous]

A woman on her period is a serial killer. :D To put it in the words of George Carlin:
"Not every ejaculation deserves a name!"

[huginnmuninn]

:D To put it in the words of George Carlin:
"Not every ejaculation deserves a name!"

i name mine ive had to go to african and asian names just to keep up wiith it. :offtopic:


theres a huge difference between a sperm or an egg and a fetus. number of chromosomes and such... i just wanted to point that out

[screamtobeheard]

Personally, I would probably never have an abortion. It violates my own personal morals, so I'd never do that.

However, if it's okay with someone's morals, it's her body and it should be her own choice to abort the child. Anyway, abortion has been illegal in the past. It doesn't keep people from having abortion. All that happens is that people abort kids illegally and then the mothers and the babies die.

[Efflorescence]

I'm sorry but it doesn't mean that because a fetus depends on the mother for survival, then it's ok to kill him/her..........just because you're strong that doesn't give you the right to kill others who are still weak..........and our rights stem from the fact that we are humans not from the fact that we are persons........
And it doesn't mean that just because you're not self-conscious, you're not a person...because then you're saying that many mentally disabled people are not persons.
There is a huge difference between a sperm/egg and a fertilized egg..........not only in the number of chromosomes but because an egg/sperm on its own hasn't got the potential to grow into a man/woman whilst a fertilized egg can if you do not kill it.........
And as to the pregnancy always being a risk........then I reply by saying that everything in life involves a risk.....even going outside...you risk getting raped, killed, robbed........so......not an excuse..........and even abortion involves a very high risk...so I don't see your point here

And pls Angel Androgynous I don't want to fight....I'm making a huge effort to be nice (being nice is not easy for me hehe....I'm trying to work on it in fact) but pls...your argument that I should have fetuses that were not created by my ova implanted in me just because I'm against their murder.......deserves no comments.......I'm also against poverty....but that doesn't mean that I have to take in all the poor people into my house just because I'm against poverty so........really......

[Iris]

I'm sorry but it doesn't mean that because a fetus depends on the mother for survival, then it's ok to kill him/her..........just because you're strong that doesn't give you the right to kill others who are still weak

A fetus is a parasite. It steals resources from the woman. It can halt the woman's life, force her to go through painful ad uncomfortable experiences that she shouldn't have to go through. And it's not even a person. It has no right to do this to the mother if she doesn't want it to. That's besides the fact that for most of the pregnancy it's nothing more than a cluster of cells. Like a tumor.

and our rights stem from the fact that we are humans not from the fact that we are persons........

No. Every cell in your body is a human cell. Your fingers are human. Does that mean that when you brush your hands against something and you kill some skin cells that you're a murderer? Should your hand be given rights? It's human too. But it's not a person. That is where our rights lie.

And it doesn't mean that just because you're not self-conscious, you're not a person...because then you're saying that many mentally disabled people are not persons.

Conscious that you exist. Even people who are completely psychotic and live in hallucinations know they exist, or else they wouldn't be having those hallucinations. Why do you think vegetables can be removed from life support? The answer is they, their consciousness, isn't there anymore. With a fetus, especially in the earlier months of pregnancy it doesn't have a consciousness to begin with. It's just a bunch of cells. Like your finger. Neither has rights. Neither are people.

There is a huge difference between a sperm/egg and a fertilized egg..........not only in the number of chromosomes but because an egg/sperm on its own hasn't got the potential to grow into a man/woman whilst a fertilized egg can if you do not kill it.........

It doesn't matter if it has more potential for life. A zygote is no more of a person than the individual sperm and eggs. They are made of the exact same stuff. The only difference is the number of chromosomes and the ability to perform mitosis. Does that make something a person, then? Should chemotherapy be illegal because it *gasp* kills the cancer?

And as to the pregnancy always being a risk........then I reply by saying that everything in life involves a risk.....even going outside...you risk getting raped, killed, robbed........so......not an excuse..........and even abortion involves a very high risk...so I don't see your point here

No one has the right to put someone else in danger without their consent. If you go outside, it's because you are choosing to go outside. If someone forces you outside, should you not be allowed to go back inside? Should you just try to deal with it and stay outside, and risk all those things you mentioned? Obviously not. It's your body, it's your choice. A pregnant woman has to suffer through nine months of discomfort, pain, sometimes even humiliation, if she is younger. No person has the right to do that to her simply for their own gain. And a fetus isn't even a person.

[christcenteredlife]

the real issue is this:

is a fetus a living being (or baby)?

most people, especially conservatives, believe they are. i personally believe a fetus should not be aborted, but i also believe in a woman's right to choose. i would never choose abortion for myself or my wife, which is easy to say about myself since i'm not a woman, but i'd also never condemn another for choosing abortion.

sometimes, abortion will save a woman's life, and who is to say who's life is more important?

in my opinion, this comes down to respecting each other. even if we don't agree with each others choices, we should respect each other as humans.

[Efflorescence]

Ok....so...lilys...I do not know exactly how to quote....I still have to get used to VT so I'm sorry for that....
I would like to point out a few things:
You said that the baby is a parasite, right? Wrong. A parasite is an organism of ONE species living on/in a host of ANOTHER species........a fetus is the same species as the mother.......
Secondly a parasite comes from OUTSIDE the host not from INSIDE...a fetus is formed inside the fallopian tube of the mother.......
Thirdly, a parasite is usually detrimental to the reproductive ability of the host...whilst a fetus ensures the survival of the mother's species........it is VITAL for the survival of his/her mother's species.

And a 'hand' is not a 'human being'.....it is...well..'the hand of a human being'........and have you ever heard of the term 'basic HUMAN rights'? We do not say 'basic PERSON rights........and one of the most basic HUMAN rights is the right to life..........

And can you actually prove that a fetus has no consciousness?.........Prove it to me.....and again you cannot compare a fetus to a finger.....a finger cannot one day look in the mirror and say..........'oh....look what I've become'....a finger does not have self consciousness or the potential to develop one, it can never do that.......no finger can do that........if I can ever implant a cut finger in my uterus nothing happens to it or to me.........

And if you think that an ova and fetus are the same.........then you're obviously wrong....and potential is of great importance........again an ova in my uterus can do nothing but a fetus in my uterus?.....well it can do plenty.......

And again cancer is not human...cancer results from a mutation in cells.......cancer cells have neither self consciousness nor the potential to acquire one.......

And if someone forces me to do something which I don't want to do? Well..in that case...I take it all out on him/her...not on an innocent human being/person......if someone rapes me (God forbid)...... it's his fault that I have to suffer nine months of discomfort and pain.........the fetus has no control over it......but the rapist had and even so.....I cannot kill the rapist........because I would get arrested.

However, I respect your opinion....it's just that I can and will never agree with you........

[Angel Androgynous]

A fetus can't look into a mirror and say: "Look at what I've become".... because it's feeding off a woman's body and it is inside a woman.
And a parasite is a life feeding off a host. A fetus is a foreign life... and we evolved to include a placenta, which helps protect it. If it wasn't for the placenta, the woman's body would've sent anti-bodies against the fetus and killed it.
A fetus isn't a person. It's a fetus. It doesn't have any rights. Hell, if abortion was illegal, you know what women who didn't want the baby would be doing? Beating their own abdomens, drinking heavily, smoking, getting black market abortions, etc. I respect your opinion... but I have my rights to my own body and I will do whatever I want. Oh and also... how are we gonna get the fetus' consent to abort it? What if it doesn't wanna be born? What, are we gonna need permission to be born now?

[Korashk]

You said that the baby is a parasite, right? Wrong. A parasite is an organism of ONE species living on/in a host of ANOTHER species........a fetus is the same species as the mother.......
Secondly a parasite comes from OUTSIDE the host not from INSIDE...a fetus is formed inside the fallopian tube of the mother.......
Thirdly, a parasite is usually detrimental to the reproductive ability of the host...whilst a fetus ensures the survival of the mother's species........it is VITAL for the survival of his/her mother's species.
You're correct, fetuses aren't technically parasites. However, the relationship they have is parasitic in nature.

And can you actually prove that a fetus has no consciousness?.........Prove it to me
Well...they don't have it until a couple years after they're born, so theres no reason to think they'd have it in the womb.

However, in terms of the law it becomes practical to declare newborns people. Even though they aren't.

And if someone forces me to do something which I don't want to do? Well..in that case...I take it all out on him/her...not on an innocent human being/person
Umm...it's the fetus's fault the mother is having health problems.

[huginnmuninn]

Umm...it's the fetus's fault the mother is having health problems.

disagree because fetus doesnt magically appear and say "haha im going to take all the nutrients i need from your body just because i want to harm you"

well im pretty sure that doesnt happen. thats like sayingi that if a person eats a hamburger and turns fat its the hamburgers fault. no its the persons fault. if 'joe' (i wanted to make up a name) forced the hamburger down the persons throat then its joes fault. the hamburger is doing what the hamburger was made to do you cant blame the hamburger for being a hamburger.

[Korashk]

disagree because fetus doesnt magically appear and say "haha im going to take all the nutrients i need from your body just because i want to harm you"

well im pretty sure that doesnt happen. thats like sayingi that if a person eats a hamburger and turns fat its the hamburgers fault. no its the persons fault. if 'joe' (i wanted to make up a name) forced the hamburger down the persons throat then its joes fault. the hamburger is doing what the hamburger was made to do you cant blame the hamburger for being a hamburger.
No one is blaming the hamburger for being a hamburger and doing what hamburgers do, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to go to the gym and lose the weight. If you catch my drift.

[Efflorescence]

If you keep on insisting that a fetus is a parasite, go on and do it...I have already laid down all my arguments from a biological point of view to show that the fetus is not a parasite.......so there's nothing I wish to add with regards to that....

And that's one of the reasons why I disagree with abortion........because we cannot have the fetus consent.......so I don't think that a mother should have the right to kill the fetus just because she doesn't want it, when she couldn't/doesn't have the slightest idea what her son/daughter wants.....

And again..there are studies that show that fetuses can feel pain/sense emotions before they are born....so again...I disagree....and the law declares newborn 'people' because they are, that's the only reason I see here korashk

And no it's not the fetus' fault because it has no control over it.......you have been a fetus once.......did you willingly cause your mother pain and sickness? NO...that's part of life...........but a rapist willingly rapes a mother.....the irony is that even so....you cannot kill him.........you cannot kill someone just because he/she causes you pain.....especially when that someone has no control over it. I have caused pain to people for more than 9 months recently...and I DID have control over it.....but my parents didn't chose to terminate me just because I made them suffer........

And pls....abortion itself causes a lot of pain both physically and emotionally and it can also lead to death..........the side-effects can take longer..much longer than 9 months to diasppear...so.....

That's my opinion........cheers.......I repect yours and I hope that no one here will ever face situations even remotely similar to those which we have been alluding to...happy? Probably not, but I'm beginning to think that this debate is pointless and a waste of time?.......You will not change your opinions and DEFINITELY neither will I since my mother was going to abort me and then decided otherwise..and I can say that i'm happy she gave me a choice and I"M BLOODY GLAD I WAS BORN, THANK YOU...bye.

[dontcare97]

Now, it is the woman's choice. But.. If the woman was going around sleeping with people, she knows that consequence. For the love of... I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! You know those "fetus's" CAN FEEL IT?!?!?!?!?!?! Would you like to be killed by a vacuum, that sucks you into a blender thing. Yeah, I didn't think so. If you can't have the baby, dont have sex. If you were raped, have the baby. Put it up for adoption. Yeah, you can get raped, but kill something? It's like killing a pet. Some people do it, but I wouldn't.


Fetus's can't feel anything until about the seventh or eighth month. I've said this hundreds of times. It's not about what you or I believe, it's about the human right to choice and letting women have the choice of what to do with her own body. What your saying is that women should take the fall for the child since it was her decision to have sex.

You can't have an abortion, even if you helped make the child. It should be the women's choice to have it or not. You don't have to carry it to term for nine months or put you life on the line to care a potentially dangerous birth. You wouldn't have to drop out of college or high school to, at some point, take care of it. You could because it's the right thing to do, but you don't have to. Her life is on hold not yours.

I personal believe that couples should talk about having an abortion together and choose the perfect option for themselves. This doesn't mean mine or your opinions should be law. It's about options and early, safe abortion should be an option.

Men aren't having restrictions on their sperm or penis and are free to do with it as they please(not including rape) Why should women give up to right to choice what they want to do with their uterus?

[Short Circuit]

I think abortions should only be carried out if the baby would cause death to the mother.

Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the world, and girls are using abortion like a means of contraception. This, IMHO, is wrong, they should be made to go full term, and suffer the concequencies of having unprotected sex.

There are thousands of couples in the world that cannot have babies, and would love to adopt one, but cant, as there is not enough babies to go round.

[Amaryllis]

Abortion is the most severe form of child abuse

Uh, no, it is not. It is a human. Not a person. It has not matured enough to treasure life or fear death. It isn't thinking "Oh no! I don't want to die!" or "I love you, mommy!" or "I want to be a doctor when I grow up!" It is not a person.

A zygote is a human from the minute of fertilisation. It was a living cell, but it is only a blob. Would you feel bad for "killing" your sperm when you ejaculate into nothing or when you have your period and your egg is flushed down the toilet? No.
Unless you're odd

You're not murdering a person when you have an abortion. It would be the same as ejaculating into a condom or bed. Anyway, children born from teenage mums or, lets say, she has an STD or is unable to care for the child, most likely will not have a very good life. Or, often, a short one.

A fully grown child has all senses, a fully developed brain, once it starts living, it is a person. It experiences, hates, cries, laughs, loves. A zygote or a not-so-fully-formed-fetus, does not.

[dontcare97]

I think abortions should only be carried out if the baby would cause death to the mother.

Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the world, and girls are using abortion like a means of contraception. This, IMHO, is wrong, they should be made to go full term, and suffer the concequencies of having unprotected sex.

There are thousands of couples in the world that cannot have babies, and would love to adopt one, but cant, as there is not enough babies to go round.

This is not true. They are literally millions of kids in the adoption system. From Africa to China to the States, kids need homes. Your statement is 100% not true at all. Sure the adoption process can be long, especially when your adopting outside the country, but that doesn't mean that their is an abundance of parents looking to take in a child. It's the total opposite.

I don't believe that birth control abortions are right. It's just a bail out for girls and it's wrong. That doesn't mean we should put restrictions on a woman's body. If girls shouldn't get abortions then men shouldn't be allowed to give out sperm which are millions of tiny little cells that hold the capacity to give life. Sperm, like a fetus, depends on the male's body for life until it's expelled into the woman to make a baby.

Or if you illegalize abortion then make the father take care of the child with the mom, by law. Being a single mother is why most young girls fear since boys aren't obligated to take care of the baby, even thou they should.

Abortion to me seems like this: Women are irresponsible and shouldn't have the judgement to choice what happens to their bodies. They get pregnant so it's their job to care for it. They were the stupid ones, not the guy she slept with. Men are smart enough to have a jurisdiction over their person and if they do get a girl pregnant, they aren't hold accountable.

[mbishop94479]

Egg+sperm=life, in its most basic definition. Cells are alive, are they not?

That zygote that's formed when an egg cell meets a sperm cell is NOT a human. It's a cell. Saying that abortions are murder is like saying the use of antibiotics is also murder, since both end the life of a cell. Yes, the zygote does become a fetus, which is born as a human baby. But a fetus is not a human. It becomes a human, but isn't, strictly speaking, a human. Abortions are not murder.

[ImCoolBeans]

So if a woman is raped, and she finds out she's pregnant with her rapists baby, she should be forced to have the baby and every time she sees her child relive the trauma and horror? I think not.

[Jakezilla]

I think abortion is fine for the right reasons. Not, "Oh, im going to get pregnant so I can abort my baby". no, thats bad, but if someone gets raped at 15 or something, is fine

[mbishop94479]

Abortions shouldn't be used as a last resort. I agree with that much. Rapes? Sure, of course. Doesn't want a child and doesn't want to adopt? Possibly. But if it's a multiple abortion, as in her 3rd or whatever, then there's a problem with her.

It's this simple: condoms are cheap. You can easily get them. Use them. I don't care if "they don't feel the same." Being a parent doesn't feel the same either.

[HaydenM]

Hello VT community,

Recently a few of my friends and i got talking and the issue of abortion came up, we all had different opinions on the issue. I was just wondering, what do you guys think?


And once you have thought about what you think, think about this. What about the "morning after pill"?

[embers]

Very original thread (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113747) - last post there is two days ago as well.

I think you'll find my opinions in that thread. It is perfectly fine to abort until a certain period into the pregnancy, for whatever reason you choose. (But abortion as contraception is kinda lame - still shouldn't stop it from being done.)

[Jess]

my views are also in that thread. basically I'm pro-choice.

[Commander Thor]

Hello VT community,

Recently a few of my friends and i got talking and the issue of abortion came up, we all had different opinions on the issue. I was just wondering, what do you guys think?


And once you have thought about what you think, think about this. What about the "morning after pill"?

Thread merged with existing Abortion thread.

[Simon.]

Absolutely disgusting. Child murder.

[Angel Androgynous]

Absolutely disgusting. Child murder.

A zygote isn't a child. ._.
It isn't a person.
It can ruin a woman's life.

[AppealToReason]

Absolutely disgusting. Child murder.



Care to explain how it's "child murder"?

[Vonn]

Absolutely disgusting. Child murder.

It's not a child. Try again.

[Jess]

Absolutely disgusting. Child murder.

it ISN'T CHILD MURDER

YOU don't have the right to tell me what to do with my body. if I want an abortion, I'll GET ONE. of course, I'll most likely to do it very early in my pregnancy, but that's another thing. AND if a woman was raped, she absolutely have the right to an abortion.

on a different note did you read the Bible and read how God murders children? but no debating that, it'll go completely off the subject. but I'm just pointing that out

[Infidelitas]

I think that if people are too stupid to use a condom, they shouldn't be allowed to get an abortion...

But if someone has a terminal illness and having the baby will kill the mother and the baby, thats where an abortion should take place.

Also if the woman has been raped, they shouldn't have to have the baby if they don't want to.

[Triste]

I say women have a right to have an abortion if they want to. No one can say that they can't, and if you do, well I hope you're helping to pay to raise the child for them.

[Cybercode]

My views are: if it was consenual sex, meaning the girl and the boy both agreed to do it ( technically "consensual sex" doesn't apply until you are 18 in the state of Florida, which is where I live). but if she gets pregnant then no I don't agree with abortion. if she thinks she is responsible to have sex, then she is responsible for the baby.

Rape victims on the other hand, if they have valid evidence they were raped, and an official police report, then yes I think abortion would be right for that situation.

but other than that, I uphold my belief of "you did the crime, you pay the time". so I am half and half on this.

[Vonn]

I think that if people are too stupid to use a condom, they shouldn't be allowed to get an abortion...

Invent condoms that work 100% of the time and we'll discuss it.

[Infidelitas]

Invent condoms that work 100% of the time and we'll discuss it.

Mixed with other contraceptive applications.

[Vonn]

Mixed with other contraceptive applications.

That's still not full-proof. The chances are very low, but a baby could still be conceived, and then what?

[CaptainObvious]

I've done some cleaning in here. Debate properly and without insulting people, or not at all.

-----------------------------------------------

My views are: if it was consenual sex, meaning the girl and the boy both agreed to do it ( technically "consensual sex" doesn't apply until you are 18 in the state of Florida, which is where I live). but if she gets pregnant then no I don't agree with abortion. if she thinks she is responsible to have sex, then she is responsible for the baby.

Rape victims on the other hand, if they have valid evidence they were raped, and an official police report, then yes I think abortion would be right for that situation.

but other than that, I uphold my belief of "you did the crime, you pay the time". so I am half and half on this.

why does that make any difference? if abortion is wrong, it ought to be disallowed whether or not the sex was consensual, since murdering a child would be a worse crime than making a woman carry it to term. similarly, if it's not intrinsically wrong, then why should it matter whether it was consensual sex that led to the pregnancy?

neither sex nor pregnancy is a "crime" so why should anything about whether or not abortion is right change?

[sammydream]

There is no excuse for something so ugly.
Killing is killing, abortion is killing but changed her name.
I hate abortion.

[Wakesetter03]

Personally, I think it should be the parents decision.
After rape victims, you don't want a child that reminds you of that.
A disabled child: A lot of parents would believe that to terminate the pregnancy of a child with serious disability (where they would be dependent on someone else their whole life) would be a better choice than letting the child live such a horrible life, and leaving them to be looked after once you have passed on.
And finally, would a child prefer to never exist or grow up in an environment where it is not wanted, could be abused etc?
Whilst I do not agree to termination of life, I believe abortion can ultimately be better choice than letting a child live a life that isn't the best it could be.
Let it be terminated before the child can feel or be, and it will know no difference.
Anyone who says that a child shoud live just because it is, and that abortion is murder, and that a child should grow up in a life that would be considered a horrible upbringing is ignorant and blinded.
Do you think any mother wants to terminate a pregnancy? No.
Sometimes they have to choice. So stop being so ignorant and look at each side of the story.

Just be 2 cents.

[Jess]

There is no excuse for something so ugly.
Killing is killing, abortion is killing but changed her name.
I hate abortion.

okay but you have no right to tell me that I can't have an abortion, if I want one.

it's not killing if a woman is having an abortion in the very very early stages of her pregnancy!

[Genghis Khan]

Killing is killing, abortion is killing but changed her name.

Killing does not equate to murder.

[Cybercode]

I really don't care anymore. But I say let them make it legal. Let's just get rid of the next person that could find the cure for cancer, or the person that can end world hunger. Or maybe the first person on Mars. Or maybe the future President of the US or Prime Minister of UK.

But yeah sure, go ahead and make it legal. I don't care. (For one, I'm a guy) But if the girl I do gets pregnant, I ( and she is she wants to as well) will take responsibility for the child. It's my mistake and I will raise the child to not make the same mistakes as I did.

That is my POV.

Rape victims are a different story.

[Perseus]

I really don't care anymore. But I say let them make it legal. Let's just get rid of the next person that could find the cure for cancer, or the person that can end world hunger. Or maybe the first person on Mars. Or maybe the future President of the US or Prime Minister of UK.

But yeah sure, go ahead and make it legal. I don't care. (For one, I'm a guy) But if the girl I do gets pregnant, I ( and she is she wants to as well) will take responsibility for the child. It's my mistake and I will raise the child to not make the same mistakes as I did.

That is my POV.

Rape victims are a different story.
Or it'll be the next Hitler. That's a weak argument.

[Cybercode]

Or it'll be the next Hitler. That's a weak argument.

OK give me what you think is a strong argument. BTW I spent like all day thinking about this argument. So I guess my time thinking and pondering went to waste.

[Perseus]

OK give me what you think is a strong argument. BTW I spent like all day thinking about this argument. So I guess my time thinking and pondering went to waste.

I'm pro-choice. Why would I give you a strong argument for your argument? Being opposed to abortion is all fine and all, but you have no right to restrict the rights of another person. It's not your life.

[Cybercode]

I'm pro-choice. Why would I give you a strong argument for your argument? Being opposed to abortion is all fine and all, but you have no right to restrict the rights of another person. It's not your life.

Did I say anything in my post about controlling other people. I was saying that I don't really care what other people do, they could "exterminate" the future President for all I care. On the contrary, I was what I would do, I would take my responsibility of having sex and getting a girl pregnant. And I would raise that kid to not make the mistake I did. THAT was my argument.

[mike3_1]

Did I say anything in my post about controlling other people. I was saying that I don't really care what other people do, they could "exterminate" the future President for all I care. On the contrary, I was what I would do, I would take my responsibility of having sex and getting a girl pregnant. And I would raise that kid to not make the mistake I did. THAT was my argument.

This is still a weak argument. And yes you did waste time thinking up complete ignorance.

[Vonn]

Did I say anything in my post about controlling other people. I was saying that I don't really care what other people do, they could "exterminate" the future President for all I care. On the contrary, I was what I would do, I would take my responsibility of having sex and getting a girl pregnant. And I would raise that kid to not make the mistake I did. THAT was my argument.

There's no possible way of knowing what the child would become, had it been left to live. It could just as easily have grown up to be a hobo.

It's a lot more efficient to get an abortion and move on, as opposed to sacrificing a lot of time, money, education and sleep just so you can deal with an issue that could have been prevented multiple times. Are you even mature enough to care for a baby 24/7? Could you walk the walk if you were thrust into that scenario?

There's a difference between taking responsibility and biting off more than you can chew.

[Angel Androgynous]

I really don't care anymore. But I say let them make it legal. Let's just get rid of the next person that could find the cure for cancer, or the person that can end world hunger. Or maybe the first person on Mars. Or maybe the future President of the US or Prime Minister of UK.

But yeah sure, go ahead and make it legal. I don't care. (For one, I'm a guy) But if the girl I do gets pregnant, I ( and she is she wants to as well) will take responsibility for the child. It's my mistake and I will raise the child to not make the same mistakes as I did.

That is my POV.

Rape victims are a different story.

We all can be future presidents, cancer-curing doctors, great scientists, famous artists... but we all aren't are we? Also, women who get abortions usually get them because of financial/emotional issues. (Not ready for a child yet, etc.) A woman who gets an abortion probably would have not been a fit mother for that child anyway. The way the child is brought up plays a part in deciding their future. It is more than likely that the child would've struggled due to the fact that the mother is inexperienced and does not set the child on the right path, therefore, there is less of a chance that they can become scientists, doctors, etc. Unless there is third party support, there are few chances of that happening.... therefore, your argument is weak.
Also, if I use your argument, I can say that a rape victim's child can become president too...

[Cybercode]

There's no possible way of knowing what the child would become, had it been left to live. It could just as easily have grown up to be a hobo.

It's a lot more efficient to get an abortion and move on, as opposed to investing a lot of time and money (and sleep) into something that could have been prevented multiple times. Are you even mature enough to care for a baby 24/7? Could you walk the walk if you were thrust into that scenario?

There's a difference between taking responsibility and biting off more than you can chew.

We'll never know what the child will become. Although I'm 16, single, and still a virgin, I will step up and be a father if I was put in this situation.

How could you be the proud parent of the first man (or woman) on Mars if they are not even alive?

[mike3_1]

We'll never know what the child will become. Although I'm 16, single, and still a virgin, I will step up and be a father if I was put in this situation.

How could you be the proud parent of the first man (or woman) on Mars if they are not even alive?

still not a valid argument. come back and try again when you get rid of the ignorance.

[StoppingTime]

Originally Posted by Cybercode
We'll never know what the child will become. Although I'm 16, single, and still a virgin, I will step up and be a father if I was put in this situation.

How could you be the proud parent of the first man (or woman) on Mars if they are not even alive?

Same as "I would be the proud father of the one who starts WWIII". This didn't change since the last time.

[Cybercode]

How can I do multiple quotes on here?

Anyway, I was stating if it happened to me (or the girl I did it to). I could honestly care less what other people do themselves or another human being life. I'm not trying to tell other people what to do, but I'm just saying my beliefs if it happened to me.

[Vonn]

We'll never know what the child will become. Although I'm 16, single, and still a virgin, I will step up and be a father if I was put in this situation.

That's taxing a very important part of your life that's hard to get back. If it can be prevented, then there's no need to sacrifice anything at all.

How could you be the proud parent of the first man (or woman) on Mars if they are not even alive?

Contradiction. The child has the potential to be anything, though its upbringing can and will severely limit its choices, seeing as you're only sixteen.

How can I do multiple quotes on here?

Anyway, I was stating if it happened to me (or the girl I did it to). I could honestly care less what other people do themselves or another human being life. I'm not trying to tell other people what to do, but I'm just saying my beliefs if it happened to me.

Click on multi-quote. If you mean the same person in different quotes, you have to do some copy/pasting.

You have to take your partner's consideration on the matter as well. She might not want to give up her education and last few years of being a teenager.

[Cybercode]

Same as "I would be the proud father of the one who starts WWIII". This didn't change since the last time.

How would we know if he/she would be like that. I believe everyone contributes to society one way or another.

[Jess]

How can I do multiple quotes on here?

Anyway, I was stating if it happened to me (or the girl I did it to). I could honestly care less what other people do themselves or another human being life. I'm not trying to tell other people what to do, but I'm just saying my beliefs if it happened to me.

multi-quote button next to Quote button

/offtopic (sorry :l)

EDIT:

Contradiction. The child has the potential to be anything, though its upbringing can and will severely limit its choices, seeing as you're only sixteen.

this x10

[StoppingTime]

How would we know if he/she would be like that. I believe everyone contributes to society one way or another.

I see a contradiciton. You said "Well, what if they are the first on mars?" Well, how would we know?

[mike3_1]

How would we know if he/she would be like that. I believe everyone contributes to society one way or another.

none of your arguments are valid. I suggest shut up or you'll dig yourself deeper.

[Cybercode]

none of your arguments are valid. I suggest shut up or you'll dig yourself deeper.

So I don't have the right to free speech now? I have to go do homework anyway. Adios.

[StoppingTime]

I suggest shut up or you'll dig yourself deeper.

Why is this necessary?

[Jess]

none of your arguments are valid. I suggest shut up or you'll dig yourself deeper.

maybe so (or not), but this is a debate. why don't you contribute something to this thread, instead of saying his arguments are invalid? :P

[Cybercode]

Why is this necessary?

my point exactly.

[Korashk]

OK give me what you think is a strong argument.
Nobody has the right to live at the expense of, and against the will of, another person.

[Infidelitas]

still not a valid argument. come back and try again when you get rid of the ignorance.

If you can't handle a debate, don't come into this forum.

[ThatScience]

Foetus has no brain -> Foetus is non-sentient

Hardly a human.

[DerBear]

I think abortion is Ok, sure its taking a life in some small prospects but again its good for the fact that some day when that person is ready to have a child they can. I would rather they have an abortion than have a child an niglect and or not look after properly

[jurisprudent]

I'm neutral on this issue, I believe that it should only be legal in the cases for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, fetal defects, and/or socioeconomic factors, and I'm seriously against Late Term Abortion.

[Jupiter]

I believe if you are raped........ Then yes. You can get an abortion, but still. If I was a woman, I would think I would let the baby live.

[Bath]

I believe if you are raped........ Then yes. You can get an abortion, but still. If I was a woman, I would think I would let the baby live.

But you're not a woman, are you?

[Jupiter]

But you're not a woman, are you?

Not that I know of. :P

But I grow up in a family who is against abortion, and used to be democrat. I am the rebel of the family, because go for the person, not the party.

[DerBear]

I believe if you are raped........ Then yes. You can get an abortion, but still. If I was a woman, I would think I would let the baby live.

Most times now if you do get rapped and your report after then you get emergancy controcpetion (Epic fail on spelling that word)

I think abortion laws are ok right now

But i am again against late term abortion

[tHe_Jester1080]

Abortion is something created by science. Deciding wheter abortion is wrong deals with ethics. Science does not answer ethics, which is why I think it will always be implemented.
Most scientists don't believe that the fetus is alive until around 22 weeks after conception which is most clinics deadline of abortion.
My personal opinion is that life begins at conception.
If you don't want the baby...
1. Why did you have SEX in the first place.
2. Give the baby up for adoption, you don't have to end its life.
It's that simple people.
reason 2 also applies if you were raped too.

[PureReality]

Now I know this is a really heated debate but it still amazes me that it's even a problem! If murder is illegal why isn't abortion illegal? And if child abuse is illegal, then why isn't abortion? Abortion is the most severe form of child abuse and yet it's legal? It boggles my mind!

It's not murder if it isn't living. It's not child abuse if it's not living.
You know, technically, pregnancy is a parasite, if you want to look at it that way.

I am pro-choice - women should have the right to have abortion. It is a very deep personal decision and the government should NOT have a say when it comes to a woman's body.

Abortion is something created by science. Deciding wheter abortion is wrong deals with ethics. Science does not answer ethics, which is why I think it will always be implemented.
Most scientists don't believe that the fetus is alive until around 22 weeks after conception which is most clinics deadline of abortion.
My personal opinion is that life begins at conception.
If you don't want the baby...
1. Why did you have SEX in the first place.
2. Give the baby up for adoption, you don't have to end its life.
It's that simple people.
reason 2 also applies if you were raped too.

People are going to have sex no matter what; many people get pregnant even using a condom and birth control is not 100% effective.

Lets say a woman is 16, and she has sex with her boyfriend; two weeks later, she finds out she is pregnant. It would not be beneficial for her to have a baby, not only would it be a huge strain on her teenage body, but it would be a strain for her to actually take care of the baby properly...not to mention school...

The government should not have restrictions on our bodies.
I believe it would be too complicated when people say abortion should only be legal for rape? I think that's a bit hypocritical anyway...

[Jess]

Abortion is something created by science. Deciding wheter abortion is wrong deals with ethics. Science does not answer ethics, which is why I think it will always be implemented.
Most scientists don't believe that the fetus is alive until around 22 weeks after conception which is most clinics deadline of abortion.
My personal opinion is that life begins at conception.
If you don't want the baby...
1. Why did you have SEX in the first place.
2. Give the baby up for adoption, you don't have to end its life.
It's that simple people.
reason 2 also applies if you were raped too.

women shouldn't have to have the baby if they were raped. if I was raped, I would definitely have an abortion.

it's completely a woman's choice.

[Jupiter]

i dont think that abortion should be a birth control. thats what condoms or the pill are for. thats just me..

[Angel Androgynous]

Abortion is something created by science. Deciding wheter abortion is wrong deals with ethics. Science does not answer ethics, which is why I think it will always be implemented.
Most scientists don't believe that the fetus is alive until around 22 weeks after conception which is most clinics deadline of abortion.
My personal opinion is that life begins at conception.
If you don't want the baby...
1. Why did you have SEX in the first place.
2. Give the baby up for adoption, you don't have to end its life.
It's that simple people.
reason 2 also applies if you were raped too.
1.Sex isn't strictly for conceiving children.
2.The adoption system is corrupt, and the woman does not have to go through nine months of pain and morning sicknesses for something she could have aborted in the first stages of pregnancy. Something that isn't a person yet.

i dont think that abortion should be a birth control. thats what condoms or the pill are for. thats just me..
Those things don't always work. :P

[StoppingTime]

Those things don't always work. :P[/QUOTE]

Some would say they are similar if you have an abortion within days of conception

[DerBear]

I believe if you are raped........ Then yes. You can get an abortion, but still. If I was a woman, I would think I would let the baby live.

Abortion is something created by science. Deciding wheter abortion is wrong deals with ethics. Science does not answer ethics, which is why I think it will always be implemented.
Most scientists don't believe that the fetus is alive until around 22 weeks after conception which is most clinics deadline of abortion.
My personal opinion is that life begins at conception.
If you don't want the baby...
1. Why did you have SEX in the first place.
2. Give the baby up for adoption, you don't have to end its life.
It's that simple people.
reason 2 also applies if you were raped too.

So let me get this straight...

You think sex is only for the creation of life. well a lot of people would disagree with that.

Baby up for adoption? ehh No?...The system is corrupt why put someone through the process to find that the baby goes to a bad home. Its not really life

And if you were raped I dont think you could give it up for adoption I think you would have a termination.

You are acting rather closed minded on this topic

[tHe_Jester1080]

Baby up for adoption? ehh No?...The system is corrupt why put someone through the process to find that the baby goes to a bad home. Its not really life



So you'd rather kill it then?

[PureReality]

So you'd rather kill it then?

As said, you can't kill something that is not living.

[DerBear]

So you'd rather kill it then?

If I was not 110% sure that the baby would go to a good home then yes, and I think I would also have an abortion anyway.

It is potential life but it is not really life yet. you cant kill something that is not technically life.

[Rawwwrr]

The way I see it is you should weigh up the potential harm vs potential good.

For instance, if the mother is a heroin addict and the father has run off, the mother is on benefits and has a tiny flat she can't pay for, then I'd say that the abortion is totally justified because you're stopping all the huge amounts of harm the baby will endure once born before it's started.


Also, the "don't have sex if you aren't willing to be pregnant" argument is exactly the same as me saying:


Don't drive if you aren't prepared to crash
Don't eat peanuts if you aren't prepared to choke on one
Don't cross the road if you aren't prepared to be hit by a car


It isn't a valid argument.


Then we could get into the whole "is it alive?!?!" argument. Personally I will go by the medical conensus, and I believe right now they believe that a fetus is considered alive at 22 weeks. Therefore I would support a womans right to abortion under some circumstances as long as it is before 22 weeks.

[Korashk]

Also, the "don't have sex if you aren't willing to be pregnant" argument is exactly the same as me saying:


Don't drive if you aren't prepared to crash
Don't eat peanuts if you aren't prepared to choke on one
Don't cross the road if you aren't prepared to be hit by a car


It isn't a valid argument.
Why are those not valid arguments?

[DerBear]

Even though I support the rights to abortion and its womens choice ect. I do think it should be lowered to something like 20 weeks (its 24 weeks in most of the uk) maybe even less as I was born on the 31st of december but I was supposed to be born sometime in march and it worked out I was early by 11 weeks so I was born almost 3 months early so I think that if it was lowered it would seem better as by the time you abort a baby at 24 weeks it is living. so maybe lower it by 2 or 4 maybe even 6 weeks.

[embers]

Why are those not valid arguments?

They aren't exactly practical. (not saying I agree with the dude's analogy)

[Korashk]

They aren't exactly practical. (not saying I agree with the dude's analogy)
That doesn't affect their logical validity. While two of the three are not exactly 1:1 comparisons (as crashing while driving and getting hit by cars while jaywalking aren't quite intrinsically linked) the point is still there. Pregnancy and sex are intrinsically linked and I don't believe one can legitimately be unwilling to at least get pregnant if they have sex.

That's like saying you eat junk food all the time and never exercise, but aren't willing to gain weight. Your mouth proclaims non-consent, but your actions provide a tacit agreement to the consequences.

[Rawwwrr]

That doesn't affect their logical validity. While two of the three are not exactly 1:1 comparisons (as crashing while driving and getting hit by cars while jaywalking aren't quite intrinsically linked) the point is still there. Pregnancy and sex are intrinsically linked and I don't believe one can legitimately be unwilling to at least get pregnant if they have sex.

That's like saying you eat junk food all the time and never exercise, but aren't willing to gain weight. Your mouth proclaims non-consent, but your actions provide a tacit agreement to the consequences.

Whether you believe the sole purpose of sex is pregnancy is up to you and each one of us, it is not a fact, it is an opinion each person must make their mind up on.

[embers]

That doesn't affect their logical validity. While two of the three are not exactly 1:1 comparisons (as crashing while driving and getting hit by cars while jaywalking aren't quite intrinsically linked) the point is still there. Pregnancy and sex are intrinsically linked and I don't believe one can legitimately be unwilling to at least get pregnant if they have sex.

That's like saying you eat junk food all the time and never exercise, but aren't willing to gain weight. Your mouth proclaims non-consent, but your actions provide a tacit agreement to the consequences.

I disagree. I think a claim of what you're willing to do is completely legitimate regardless of what you do to follow it up. But anyway, I should have addressed the actual analogy. It should be

Also, the "don't have sex if you aren't willing to be pregnant" argument is exactly the same as me saying:


Don't drive if you aren't [-]prepared[/-] willing to crash
Don't eat peanuts if you aren't [-]prepared[/-] willing to choke on one
Don't cross the road if you aren't [-]prepared[/-] willing to be hit by a car

'Prepared' and 'willing' are two different statements. If you substitute 'prepared' for 'willing' then you see how the argument isn't really a good one. I can legitimately expect to do something without necessarily suffering its consequences.

[Jupiter]

'Prepared' and 'willing' are two different statements. If you substitute 'prepared' for 'willing' then you see how the argument isn't really a good one. I can legitimately expect to do something without necessarily suffering its consequences.

I actually gonna say something similar to this.

[tHe_Jester1080]

If I was not 110% sure that the baby would go to a good home then yes, and I think I would also have an abortion anyway.

It is potential life but it is not really life yet. you cant kill something that is not technically life.

It's not life yet! It has a brain, heart and breathes. If that's not life then I guess I'm not alive either!

[StoppingTime]

It's not life yet! It has a brain, heart and breathes. If that's not life then I guess I'm not alive either!

I'm assuming he meant before it was that developed.

[Jess]

does it have a brain, heart, and breathes during the first few weeks of a woman's pregnancy? >_>

[Genghis Khan]

It's not life yet! It has a brain, heart and breathes. If that's not life then I guess I'm not alive either!

They're aborted before having developed a brain, heart and ability to respire.

[embers]

They're aborted before having developed a brain, heart and ability to respire.

That's terribly sexy.

[Amaryllis]

Cases in which abortion should definitely be legal

-Rape (Mother may be mentally and physically unstable)
-Incest (The baby would be deformed. The mother would be screwed)
-Old, old people (Both mother and child would suffer and there's a high risk of death or a miscarriage. The parents would not be around to care for the child very long. Do you want 90 year old parents who will die before you're ready?)
-Severe fetal deformity (Why give birth to something that's going to be fucked and have a fucked up life, anyway? You're saving the unborn human a lot of anguish and misery. It doesn't have a chance.)
-Mother's life is at risk (She has everything to lose, the unborn human hasn't lived to lose. She knows what she has to lose, the zygote knows no better as it hasn't lived so won't lose anything. Her friends and family will lose her. She's gone this far in life just to give it away to something that may not even survive? Something that, even if did survive, would be perfectly fine not? You lose sperm cells and eggs all the time. Is that immoral?)

Reasons why abortion should be legal

-Financially incapable (Not everyone can afford a child. Not everyone can support themselves, much less a child. Why would you bring a child into this world just to watch it starve or starve with it?)
-Emotionally unstable (If the parents are unprepared for a child, especially in cases in which they were still children, how do you expect them to care for one? Why, in the world, would you even want them to? It would mean they may abuse their child, raise their child and fuck it up and make the child wish it was never born in the first place. I, for one, would have been much happier had my parents aborted me. My mother is not mentally capable of caring for me, she never was. She would beat me, hold me in her arms, rock herself back and forth while telling me she was raped. I was 7. I didn't want to know. I don't.)
-Physically incapable of supporting a child (Some women cannot bare child birth. They will suffer and/or die. Especially young mothers, imagine a girl, pregnant at 12. Her body hasn't fully developed, her hormones aren't even in line yet. Imagine the trauma carrying another human would do to her body. Both the unborn human and mother are at risk. Why lose both when you could save one? Especially if the life you're losing would be the equivalent of a sperm and an egg. You lose them all the time)
-The mother has more to lose (It would mean dropping out of school for teen mums. Destroying all her chances of a life. It would be a life she worked so hard on, wasted. Cause now she has to put all her priorities on another's. She's just a child. She has more to lose than a zygote that hasn't even seen the world and knows no better. It's not even forming coherent thoughts yet!)
-You lose sperm and egg cells ALL THE TIME (I've said this about 3 times now. You lose sperm and egg cells all the time. The only difference this time is they're joined. Which isn't much of a difference.)
-Sex isn't just for making babies (People do it for pleasure. You don't have to make a baby every time you have sex. No method of contraception is 100%. There is always the chance that you'll fall pregnant. Even if you cut off and seal your fallopian tubes, there's still a 0.5% chance you may fall pregnant. And how many people are in the world? A lot. If a woman's fallopian tubes grow back, can you blame her?)
-You can't point at a woman who had sex willingly and say "She deserved it" (What does the man deserve? And that would be like blaming someone for dying because the went bungee jumping and the chord broke. Or saying it's a construction worker's fault for falling and dying.)

[Genghis Khan]

-Incest (The baby would be deformed. The mother would be screwed)

Not always the case. There's an increased risk, but even then, not by that much (probably by about 7%).

[Amaryllis]

Not always the case. There's an increased risk, but even then, not by that much (probably by about 7%).

Incest produced baby
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-04-08/world/incest.aust_1_dad-and-daughter-first-child-children?_s=PM:WORLD
Died of a heart disease at 9 months.

Of course, you're completely right. It isn't always but... Okay, I'm gonna be a nerd for 2 seconds here.

Basically we have 2 sets of genes and our children inherit one of these sets from each parent.

We might have one gene that says "you will get disease A" but we also may have stronger gene that says "you will resist disease A". So ultimately, you will be able to resist this disease.

However, if you have a baby with someone with the same set of genes as you, then there is a high chance that the baby will have 2 genes saying "you will get disease A" and no gene to resist it. So in the end you go BOOM!

[Bath]

Incest produced baby
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-04-08/world/incest.aust_1_dad-and-daughter-first-child-children?_s=PM:WORLD
Died of a heart disease at 9 months.

Of course, you're completely right. It isn't always but... Okay, I'm gonna be a nerd for 2 seconds here.

Basically we have 2 sets of genes and our children inherit one of these sets from each parent.

We might have one gene that says "you will get disease A" but we also may have stronger gene that says "you will resist disease A". So ultimately, you will be able to resist this disease.

However, if you have a baby with someone with the same set of genes as you, then there is a high chance that the baby will have 2 genes saying "you will get disease A" and no gene to resist it. So in the end you go BOOM!

It also depends how close the two are. If it's brother and sister, yeah most likely the kid will have some problems. But if it's like... second cousins, the chance is less.

[Amaryllis]

It also depends how close the two are. If it's brother and sister, yeah most likely the kid will have some problems. But if it's like... second cousins, the chance is less.

I don't consider sexual relationships with second cousins as incest. Incest often refers to sexual relations with a parent, child, grandchild and/or sibling.

[Beaker]

Absolutely disgusting. Child murder.

It is NOT child murder! For one thing, a foetus does not even think inside the body. It can certainly not feel pain, as its nerve endings have not developed. Also, if it stems from rape, do you know how badly it would hurt a woman to be carrying around a baby she knew was from a rapist? Nobody has any right to tell the woman what to do with her own body.

[ImCoolBeans]

Look over the section rules before you post, in there you will find the rules regarding bumped threads. If the last post in a thread is older than two months in any section besides Questions for Both Boys and Girls (which is three months) and the VT Arcade (which has no limit) then don't post in it, that is a bump and it's against the rules. I've seen you bump multiple threads now. :locked: