Is the banning of Holocaust denial and Nazi symbols justified in Europe?

[ShyGuyInChicago]

I am wondering what you think of making Holocaust Denial and Nazi symbols illegal in Europe. It is illegal to deny the Holocaust in many European countries as well as in Israel. Many people argue that criminalizing Holocaust denial and Nazi symbols is a violation of free speech. I honestly think it such laws in Europe may very well be justified because the Holocaust occurred in Europe, and denying the Holocaust and allowing Nazi symbols would contribute to increased anti-Semitism and possibly (I admit this is a huge stretch) another Holocaust.

Please not That I am only talking about the laws in Europe, not in America or anywhere other than Europe.

[Awesome]

I think its justified, We certainly don't want a Nazi country to be formed. All they would do to the world is bad and just some more crap USA would have to send the army in for. Theres enough problems in this world, adding Nazi's again would be way to much chaos.

[Schizothemia]

While I understand the blocking of Holocaust denial speech, I do think that it is violating a right to free speech. Free speech is there to protect the unpopular opinion or belief. Blocking the opinion and criminalizing doesn't make them any less stupid. Now, not only are you eliminating someones free speech, you're wasting money on something you shouldn't even care about. It's not as though they are saying those involved in the Holocaust deserved what happened, they are denying its existence which is just sheer stupidity and if people can't acknowledge that, then I say tough titties.

As for blocking the Nazi Symbol, that's stupid. Sorry. I'm not in support of the Nazi ideologies, but blocking that symbol is ignoring an important part of global and European history. It's not like you will make it go away, it will still exist.

Just because someone has the symbol doesn't mean all of a sudden the Nazi's will rise again. I own plenty of things with the old symbol of Communism on them, does that make me a communist? No, I respect our global history and have an appreciation for what happened in the past especially since it will help us hopefully stop the same thing from repeating in the future.

[ShyGuyInChicago]

While I understand the blocking of Holocaust denial speech, I do think that it is violating a right to free speech. Free speech is there to protect the unpopular opinion or belief. Blocking the opinion and criminalizing doesn't make them any less stupid. Now, not only are you eliminating someones free speech, you're wasting money on something you shouldn't even care about. It's not as though they are saying those involved in the Holocaust deserved what happened, they are denying its existence which is just sheer stupidity and if people can't acknowledge that, then I say tough titties.

As for blocking the Nazi Symbol, that's stupid. Sorry. I'm not in support of the Nazi ideologies, but blocking that symbol is ignoring an important part of global and European history. It's not like you will make it go away, it will still exist.

Just because someone has the symbol doesn't mean all of a sudden the Nazi's will rise again. I own plenty of things with the old symbol of Communism on them, does that make me a communist? No, I respect our global history and have an appreciation for what happened in the past especially since it will help us hopefully stop the same thing from repeating in the future.

When I said banning Nazi symbols, I meant a person can't for example have a head band swastika. Photos of Nazis bearing swastikas would not be banned nor would history books with swatiskas on the cover.

[Iris]

I'm really torn about this. On one hand I despise everything about the Nazis, as they tortured and/or murdered half my family (my middle name's namesake died in the Auschwitz concentration camp) and never want to see any support of them. On the other hand I really believe in free speech, and that it is one of the most important freedoms we have. It's hard for me to be objective though...

It got me to thinking though, how freedoms can be exercised up to the point where you harm someone. Perhaps that should be extended to emotional, and not just physical harm. Survivors of the Holocaust could be re-traumatized by seeing those symbols, or seeing a march of Nazi supporters. The Holocaust is not something you can get over, ever. The people who suffered through it need to be protected.

[dead]

What about the symbol that is almost identical to the Nazi symbol?

[Magus]

What about the symbol that is almost identical to the Nazi symbol?The Swastika is a religious symbol, and it will always be one.

[dead]

The Swastika is a religious symbol, and it will always be one.

Yes, but there are two. One going to the right and one going to the left.

[darkwoon]

Yes, perfectly justified.

As a side note, in most countries, Nazi symbols are not "banned" in all cases - some uses you could make of it are. It is, for example, perfectly ok to display Nazi symbols in the context of an historical exhibition.

And no, I don't think "freedom of speech" should be absolute or that anything should be allowed because of it; the whole point of any human society is to place limits so your behavior doesn't become a nuisance for others - and Nazism is, without any doubt, quite a threat.

[huginnmuninn]

Yes, but there are two. One going to the right and one going to the left.

yes but in hinduism there are instances of it going to the right and left. the nazis used the right handed one at a 45 degree turn. the 45 degree turn is pretty much the only difference

[dead]

yes but in hinduism there are instances of it going to the right and left. the nazis used the right handed one at a 45 degree turn. the 45 degree turn is pretty much the only difference

Good job at repeating what I just said

[Sporadica]

lol I was listening to Deutschland uber Alles at the time of writing this

I beleive that this is an offence against freedom of speech and I don't think that speech should ever in any way be restricted

If I want to hate the jews and say that the holocaust never happened, then leave me to it, I have a right to

It seems that the Germans restricing this the most almost turns it into Nazi Germany all over again where the government is restricing the little things

When you restrict the little things most people are passive sheep enough to feel used to it then the big things like voting and assembly ect.

A hitler type leader can be elected at any time
If you asked me was Hitler good in 1932 I probably would've said he's the best

-----

Yes, perfectly justified.

And no, I don't think "freedom of speech" should be absolute or that anything should be allowed because of it; the whole point of any human society is to place limits so your behavior doesn't become a nuisance for others - and Nazism is, without any doubt, quite a threat.

So you beleive that the unpopular opinion should be smuthered into illegality? You think that just because most people hated the Nazis you think that makes it OK to not have the freedom. I thankfully live in Canada where I'm allowed to be a Nazi if I want to.

If I really wanted to I could walk around town in full Nazi getup with the armband and flags ect and there ain't anything anyone can do about it.

Freedom of speech in my opinion should be absolute, no one in any way shape or form should be imposing any limits on it, because then at that point its not a right, it's a privilege so that only the anti-nazis can have the freedom

I 100% stand behind the constitution and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I admit it needs a few amendments but what we got right now is good

"I didn't speak when they took away the Jews. I didn't speak when they took away the gypsy's. I didn't speak when they took away the homosexuals. When they came to take me, there was no one left to speak for me."

[Kahn]

The Swastika is a religious symbol, and it will always be one.

Beat me to it.

[darkwoon]

So you beleive that the unpopular opinion should be smuthered into illegality? You think that just because most people hated the Nazis you think that makes it OK to not have the freedom. I thankfully live in Canada where I'm allowed to be a Nazi if I want to.
It is not the question of an opinion to be popular or not. It is a question of the opinion to be compatible with the idea of a culturally open society.

I live in a society that tries to promote tolerance of other cultures and strong social dialog over individual freedom. Hence indeed, I believe that opinions that threaten those values of tolerance and humanism should be kept in check, and made illegal if necessary.

That's not absolute freedom - but absolute freedom is not possible in a stable, organized society. It is freedom for everybody to walk in the street without being life-threatened just because he's of different race, or religion, or culture. Fair trade, I'd say.

Freedom of speech in my opinion should be absolute, no one in any way shape or form should be imposing any limits on it, because then at that point its not a right, it's a privilege so that only the anti-nazis can have the freedom
I make a difference between a democracy and a society in which everybody does as he/she pleases. Democracy doesn't stop at the individual level - it also has a role to play in inter-personal dialog. Nazism is the straight negation of such dialog, so for me, it is fundamentally orthogonal with the democratic concept.

I 100% stand behind the constitution and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I admit it needs a few amendments but what we got right now is good
I respect that, but you cannot single-compare freedom of speech between your society and mine without consider both of them as a whole. The populations, the historical background, the cultures involved are vastly different. Rules that fit one pretty well do not necessarily work in the other.

"I didn't speak when they took away the Jews. I didn't speak when they took away the gypsy's. I didn't speak when they took away the homosexuals. When they came to take me, there was no one left to speak for me."
I really hope you aren't trying to imply we should speak to defend the neo-nazis - if so, just understand that for most European citizens, it would sound grossly offensive and barbaric.

Let's write it in another terms: for most Europeans, Nazis were barbarians who pushed genocide, torture and cultural oppression further than anybody else before. The poem you quoted is precisely a call to everybody to stand up and speak *against* such insane ideologies *before* they have any chance to settle in, because if you ever give accept them as part of your society, you already lost the battle.

You may consider it stupid or even anti-democratic that nazis are put on the ban of most European societies - but *we* are those who directly experienced the horrors of nazism, *we* lost more than 60 million people because of it and *we* are those who had to face the difficult reconciliation of the populations involved. So with all due respect, I believe Europe has no lesson to receive from others about how to deal with supporters of such extreme ideologies.

I'm sorry if I sound quite rude, but really, I can't help but feeling deeply offended. You probably don't understand why or how - my only hope is that, someday, you will.

[trooneh]

Beat me to it.

Only it was permanently tainted by its use by the Nazi Party, sadly.

[SosbanFach]

I didn't speak when they took away the Jews. I didn't speak when they took away the gypsy's. I didn't speak when they took away the homosexuals. When they came to take me, there was no one left to speak for me."

Forgive me, but I like this quote so much that I feel the need to correct it.

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

[LuckyLuke]

Denying deniers freedom of speech is, in a sense, exactly what the Nazis did- deny the Jewish people (as well as other "undesirables") their freedom of speech.

Although I STRONGLY disagree with the views of deniers, I feel that denying them their freedom of speech is just where it begins. Everyone is entitled to their own ideas, thoughts, and safe expression. So long as they're not acting on their hate IN ANY SENSE, we can't deny them their right.

Now, that being said, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the governments of not only Europe but the entire world to educate- through various means that can reach each and every person- of the atrocities that occurred during that time.

I am a proud Jewish citizen of the United States of America.

[Maxxie]

The Holocaust is one of the single worst atrocities of the entire world, and the deniers are spewing absolute bullshit from their mouths at an alarming rate.

That being said, they do have a right to freedom of thought and speech, and as much as I would like to ram a bayonet down their throats (hypothetically speaking), they have that freedom simply because they're human like the rest of us.

[Genghis Khan]

Doesn't anyone else find it weird that Europeans use freedom of speech as an excuse to justify their abusive cartoons of Muhammad and yet when you even question the numbers of the people that died in the Holocaust people define you as an anti-semite and extremist. I'm glad someone started this because it gets me so fucking angry when people get worked up over this and criticize freedom of speech for allowing this hatred and animosity but when it comes to things like what I just mentioned above, they latch on to freedom of speech for dear life.

I'm in no way a Muslim, if it were the other way around, I'd be just as pissed.

Neither the Nazi Symbol, the denial of the Holocaust, the cartoons of the Prophet, the KKK costume/symbols or anything I haven't mentioned along these lines should be banned. Whether you agree or not, the majority of the world has moved past from society having a mechanized racist mindset, I can safely say for England, if such symbols were allowed [which they will never be] most people wouldn't even consider listening to their point of view, these backward racist ideological organized dogmas are a thing of the past, people have more or less [in Europe] come to a sense of the irrational and the rational, the delirious and the balanced, the injudicious and the judicious. When such a society has an elite that is progressing, breaking the surface of success, pays no attention and does not approve of such ideologies, there's a very small chance that this defeated and broken down mindset could be resurrected, especially at this critical period of having been recovered.

/rant.

[Odst]

I feel that the banning of holocaust denial is justified because it was a major portion of modern history and being educated about such an event may be key in preventing it again, blocking it out may cause history to repeat itself.

that being said, the banning of nazi symbols is not justified because all they are is symbols, as long as they are not being used in support of another nazi uprising they are causing no problems.