Intelligent society with or without religion?

[zuluman78]

Some people say religion inspires, drives and gives people a reason to live also a sense of morality.

Others say that religion causes destruction, hatred, prejudice, war etc

Do YOU think we need religion?

[Sage]

Short answer: No. There is nothing religion provides that could not also be achieved through secular means.

[Schizothemia]

Not really. Like Sage said, there's nothing in religion that can't be found by secular means.

Morality? There's a new theory available that explains morality as an instinct in order to allow for a group or collective to survive.

Sense of being? I can derive that myself. Once you find something you love, or something that sets a spark in you that is unparalleled anywhere else, you've pretty much found your sense of being.

Inspiration? I've found inspiration in a ton of things and people, never once have I gotten it from a parable or some nugget of wisdom from the bible.

[Magus]

Morality? There's a new theory available that explains morality as an instinct in order to allow for a group or collective to survive.That's my theory. And if you do not believe me, then please google my username with 'Morality' and 'VT' beside it.

So far, religion has done nothing progressive to the world. Islamists claim people like Kwarizmi and some other scientists were Muslims, often citing the "he byhearted the Quran at age 7" -- most of them were jailed, beaten and almost killed for being "un-Islamic". The same regarding scientist like Galileo and Newton, and even the father of Genetics(he became a Father because then he could use the farm and stuff).

Do you know why religion always opposed science? So that they can control the uneducated! That's why! To scare them, to drive, make them insecure, it is inevitable.

If you have watched the Book of Eli, you know why the Villian wanted the book. And it's truth to every where!

[Timmy93]

I believe religion drives people. It drives me and it drives people to do good things because the Lord is watching over us and if we do good things good things happen and vice verda so yeah i believe so. If it wasnt for religion i believe many people wouldnt want to do community service because they wouldnt have wake up calls to pursue a deeper life. Also it gives them hope because when they pray and give it to God it happens and they can see their true calling.

[Genghis Khan]

So far, religion has done nothing progressive to the world.

You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MxbkJ58pBw&feature=related) don't (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mORD8x8MYk8&feature=relmfu) say (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkQWAw5H7gA&feature=relmfu).

[Iris]

I think religion was only useful in the early years of civilization, when people needed some guidance in terms of morality (what's right and what's wrong), and while religion failed this in some instances (like making homosexuality immoral), they did get the basics right (like "do not murder, steal" etc). It was also a way to lift the hopes of people living in harsh times, by ensuring a good afterlife for them. That being said, I think religion has outlived it's purpose. Religion is used as a tool to commit crimes against humanity more than the other way around. It was the reason behind countless massacres, inspired hatred, and has constantly clashed with the world's progress scientifically. I think it would take a very VERY long while for religion to disappear in the world, though it's time that it should.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

First quote in my signature. Nothing good comes out of religion. Although I'd like to think the brain washing made me a better person -_-.

[TheMatrix]

I believe religion drives people. It drives me and it drives people to do good things because the Lord is watching over us and if we do good things good things happen and vice verda so yeah i believe so. If it wasnt for religion i believe many people wouldnt want to do community service because they wouldnt have wake up calls to pursue a deeper life. Also it gives them hope because when they pray and give it to God it happens and they can see their true calling.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NEsisB3Ongs/TaT5TiNfjDI/AAAAAAAAFKg/XQuBtfkjI6c/s1600/this_bear_has_no_friends.jpg
I'm a terrible person and that's all there is to it. trollface.jpg

[PerpetualImperfexion]

image (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NEsisB3Ongs/TaT5TiNfjDI/AAAAAAAAFKg/XQuBtfkjI6c/s1600/this_bear_has_no_friends.jpg)
I'm a terrible person and that's all there is to it. trollface.jpg

Ha stop messing with the brainwashed. (I'll have to save that picture :P)

[KylieEatWorld]

In my opinion, religion hasn't inspired much in scientific or psychological advances. Quite the contrary actually.

However, religion has inspired very beautiful artwork and music that I'd like to keep in existence.

[Angel Androgynous]

I think religion was only useful in the early years of civilization, when people needed some guidance in terms of morality (what's right and what's wrong), and while religion failed this in some instances (like making homosexuality immoral), they did get the basics right (like "do not murder, steal" etc). It was also a way to lift the hopes of people living in harsh times, by ensuring a good afterlife for them. That being said, I think religion has outlived it's purpose. Religion is used as a tool to commit crimes against humanity more than the other way around. It was the reason behind countless massacres, inspired hatred, and has constantly clashed with the world's progress scientifically. I think it would take a very VERY long while for religion to disappear in the world, though it's time that it should.

This.
Also religion has caused so many wars and suffering!! The crusades, the hundred years war... witch trials in Europe and America, people getting killed for not being a certain religion. (Just to name a few)

[Kahn]

First quote in my signature. Nothing good comes out of religion.

I disagree with this.

Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescoes are beautiful. Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is historic. The cathedrals built throughout history are iconic and beautiful. Religion was a driving force for culture, whether or not you believe in the divine or not.

(I just feel the need to add this; I am in no way religious.)

[Genghis Khan]

Religion was a driving force for culture

This. One thing that is ignored by people is that over the centuries religion has tied itself to many cultures [especially my own] and played the role of a helping hand in establishing different civilizations and cultures.

[Magus]

Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescoes are beautiful. Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is historic. The cathedrals built throughout history are iconic and beautiful. Religion was a driving force for culture, whether or not you believe in the divine or not.
Michaelangelo was a sculptor than a painter. He hated painting, and loved Sculpturing. But he was paid to do all that God paintings and shit. He was a professed sceptic.

And even his famous God creating Adam painting, and if you look closely to the painting, only an anatomist will know what it means with the satirical portrayal. It means God is an imaginary being--being in a shape of a brain. Of course, if he stated that he is an atheist, he will be Killed right off as a heathen, you see.


Leonardo Da Vinci was also a skeptic, if not an atheist. He was a Mathematician, Physicist and Engineer first, then he was an artist later. He was indifferent to religion. You can see, he made his first drawing effort as past time. He too was paid to do all those drawings of god and shit.

As for Architecture, yep. I agree. I agree that these Cathedrals could have been observatories or research centres. But no, these are places of worship to an imaginary god, unfortunately.

[KylieEatWorld]

Many times I have noticed on this site that when one talks of religion it always goes to Christianity. Many other religions also inspired artwork, architecture, monuments,and music. Such as the Egyptian's beliefs on burial giving us the Great Pyramid and their other religious beliefs exemplified through their unique hieroglyphics. Along with Roman, Greek, Hindu, Mayan/Aztec and Norse mythology's artwork they also provide excellent storytelling (and lovely additions to a final fantasy game). Buddhism, Catholicism, and Jainism all bring forth beautiful aspects of every different culture.

Not to mention that it was for religious reasons that the Pilgrims first moved to America. To create a better life for themselves in which they could worship God in whatever way they saw fit.

[Schizothemia]

I think we are creating a different argument here.

The question the OP asked was do you think we need religion, and by the wording, I'm thinking he means currently, here and now.

There is no question that religion has had an amazing effect on culture, art, and philosophy. But the question here is not would these same things have happened if religion were non-existant then, but does our current 21st Century society need religion?

[PerpetualImperfexion]

I disagree with this.

Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescoes are beautiful. Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is historic. The cathedrals built throughout history are iconic and beautiful. Religion was a driving force for culture, whether or not you believe in the divine or not.

(I just feel the need to add this; I am in no way religious.)

Good point you have proved me wrong. Still religion has caused more war and pain than any pretty piece of art can fix.

[RoseyCadaver]

I disagree with this.

Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescoes are beautiful. Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is historic. The cathedrals built throughout history are iconic and beautiful. Religion was a driving force for culture, whether or not you believe in the divine or not.

(I just feel the need to add this; I am in no way religious.)
In my opinion, religion hasn't inspired much in scientific or psychological advances. Quite the contrary actually.

However, religion has inspired very beautiful artwork and music that I'd like to keep in existence.
These.I think a lot of beautiful arts and cultures have been inspired by religion.I do think some(or maybe all)is pointless control on how you go about believing your "God" or how you go about your morals,religion has gotten some pretty good pieces of art(on many levels mediums,not necessarily paintings) and other cultural movements.I will agree,I don't think it has helped us along with our scientific movements(case shown when Catholic house arrested Galileo for his life).

Still religion has caused more war and pain than any pretty piece of art can fix.
Wrong.Even though I'm not religious,I have been(and still am)raised religious,I find no need to argue over which religion is better(this could be because I'm agnostic.).I think people use religion as an excuse to attack or go to war.Religion(or a good one in my eyes) itself is about working better towards helping the human races.People will always use religion to fight,when most people know it's futile and a paradox(for most religions)to fight over religion.People just want an excuse,so they use religion.

I believe religion drives people. It drives me and it drives people to do good things because the Lord is watching over us and if we do good things good things happen and vice verda so yeah i believe so. If it wasnt for religion i believe many people wouldnt want to do community service because they wouldnt have wake up calls to pursue a deeper life. Also it gives them hope because when they pray and give it to God it happens and they can see their true calling.
It doesn't really drive me.I think if you're only doing good because an all mighty force/super human in the sky is watching you then you aren't really doing good.I do many community services,but it is out of my own heart in wanting to help people and help humans.I don't do it just because "the is watching over me".I do because I want to.


If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

Wrong.Even though I'm not religious,I have been(and still am)raised religious,I find no need to argue over which religion is better(this could be because I'm agnostic.).I think people use religion as an excuse to attack or go to war.Religion(or a good one in my eyes) itself is about working better towards helping the human races.People will always use religion to fight,when most people know it's futile and a paradox(for most religions)to fight over religion.People just want an excuse,so they use religion.


That is exactly what I just said. Religion causes war. There must be a misunderstanding.

[DerBear]

I think in the earlier years of the world religon probably helped but i think as we have advanced in all ways now adays religon counts for very little.

[RoseyCadaver]

That is exactly what I just said. Religion causes war. There must be a misunderstanding.
No,not really.

You were saying people went to war over it,I think people go to war and use it as excuse(bear with me).Like now a days terms,I think the fight over the Gaza strip is really nothing about who's holy land it is,but just who's country gets to get bigger.

[Iris]

You were saying people went to war over it,I think people go to war and use it as excuse(bear with me).Like now a days terms,I think the fight over the Gaza strip is really nothing about who's holy land it is,but just who's country gets to get bigger.

That's usually not true. For example, one of the most famous religious wars, the Crusades, were mainly for religious purposes. Israel is a tiny piece of land and would not add much to countries land-wise. Also often when countries went to war they did not seek to win land. Like many of the conflicts between the English and Spanish in the middle ages had extremely strong ties with religion (though of course there were political reasons as well); it wasn't about land.

But does it even matter? Whether people were fighting for religion or using religion as an excuse, religion still played a vital role in all the conflicts.

[RoseyCadaver]

That's usually not true. For example, one of the most famous religious wars, the Crusades, were mainly for religious purposes. Israel is a tiny piece of land and would not add much to countries land-wise. Also often when countries went to war did they seek to win land. Like many of the conflicts between the English and Spanish in the middle ages had extremely strong ties with religion (though of course there were political reasons as well); it wasn't about land.

But does it even matter? Whether people were fighting for religion or using religion as an excuse, religion still played a vital role in all the conflicts.

Yes, it did lead to conflicts.Just like every other thing does.A lot of time it isn't the people starting these problems ,it's the leaders.I just don't think someone could say how much damage religion does,when nearly a lot of subjects do start conflicts.

[Iris]

Yes, it did lead to conflicts.Just like every other thing does.A lot of time it isn't the people starting these problems ,it's the leaders.I just don't think someone could say how much damage religion does,when nearly a lot of subjects do start conflicts.

Well obviously religion isn't the only thing that starts conflicts but it's the only thing being discussed in this thread. And it has started and re-ignited many, many conflicts in the past or at least played a part in them, which makes it relevant to this debate.

[Awesome]

WHAT! How could you just ask, do we need religion? You can't just throw it away now. Okay listen, theres an advantage and disadvatages to everything. Fact of Life. People just have to accept other people religions.
Example. My family is christian with crosses everywhere in the house. My grandma moved in who is atheist and she is respectful of our beliefs are we are of hers.

[Schizothemia]

WHAT! How could you just ask, do we need religion? You can't just throw it away now. Okay listen, theres an advantage and disadvatages to everything. Fact of Life. People just have to accept other people religions.
Example. My family is christian with crosses everywhere in the house. My grandma moved in who is atheist and she is respectful of our beliefs are we are of hers.
Out of curiosity, aside from any personal beliefs and associations with Christianity (and this applies to anyone else and whatever religion they may belong to), why exactly can we not just throw it away? While it might be a gradual process, why exactly can't we spend more time in search for the truth, not just some archaic belief that provides false hope?

(Sorry for the loaded question at the end, I do have issues with all religions, so I'm just a bit curious as to why exactly we can't dismantle them for what they are.)

Don't get me wrong, I am in full support of understanding each other in every way we possibly can, but from a hypothetical standpoint in a reality in which religion could be discarded, why couldn't we just do it?

[Genghis Khan]

WHAT! How could you just ask, do we need religion?

It's a pretty good question, with a pretty good answer.

You can't just throw it away now.

Not at this very moment but through a gradual process we might.

Okay listen, theres an advantage and disadvatages to everything. Fact of Life.

Where the disadvantages outweigh the advantages by a nominally high number action is taken to educate people about it.

Out of curiosity, aside from any personal beliefs and associations with Christianity (and this applies to anyone else and whatever religion they may belong to), why exactly can we not just throw it away? While it might be a gradual process, why exactly can't we spend more time in search for the truth, not just some archaic belief that provides false hope?

We can, and we will. Even in the most religious and conservative countries there is a significant number of people who are beginning to question their religious beliefs and putting their personal affiliations with God aside to actually seek the truth, instead of falling back to archetypal incongruous arguments like 'God will tell us later' 'I'm in a safe position by believing in God' 'I see him everywhere' 'Majority of people have seen God so there must be some truth in it'.

You'd still have an intelligent society with or without religion though, not every aspect of science [science being the only subject that clashes with religion] is discordant with what religion says, you'll mostly just have people who don't accept the evolutionary biology aspect and Einstein's law of relativity, while happily accepting gravity, quantum entanglement, the copenhagen interpretation and so on. Whether you agree or not, there's still just a small minority of people who aren't willing to educate children in the fear that they'd stray away from religion.

Plus, we'd all get our morality from some place or the other, the problem comes when they choose to pick on the ancient, tribal moralities that religion poses due to looking at the dogma in its most pure and backward form. If everyone religious is willing to accept a modernized version of their faith, it makes no difference if they get it from there or society itself (probably a few minor rules but that's it).

But, going back to the question initially posed

Do YOU think we need religion?

We don't need it. Name one thing (of meaning) that secularism lacks and can only be achieved through religious rule. Nobody needs it. Not me, not you, not anybody.

[Continuum]

We don't need it. Name one thing (of meaning) that secularism lacks and can only be achieved through religious rule. Nobody needs it. Not me, not you, not anybody.

Unity during the middle ages. The only thing that kept Europe from murdering the fuck out of each other was the Pope. Also, the proletarian people at that time were moronic as they were unhygienic. The only source of their brainpower was the clergy. Furthermore, the Islamic Caliphate maintained its unity with theocracy and produced many advancements. However, this "divine" rule isn't so much useful as of today. We have universal education. We aren't that barbaric compared to before, and we can't just take land from our neighbors just because we will it. It isn't religion which is acting today. Most of religion has served its purpose, and will inevitably undergo gradual upheaval.

[Sporadica]

no way

A child knows that if someone hits him or steals or anything he knows that is wrong, well most do based upon the way they were raised. Many religious people feel that without religion there is no morality.

I have a picture of a graph i'll find it and post it

no way

A child knows that if someone hits him or steals or anything he knows that is wrong, well most do based upon the way they were raised. Many religious people feel that without religion there is no morality.

I have a picture of a graph i'll find it and post it

here we go


Edit(Thor): Please don't double post. Use the 'Edit' button next time.

[Continuum]

Many religious people feel that without religion there is no morality.



That's how they think. In fact, I don't even think morality should be related to religion, at all. They CAN exist without the other. Even without Religion, Social biases will always prevail according to trends. Religion is only there to systematize the thought of morality. And at most, power-tripping occurs especially when you control the trends the present world has. And of course, what's morality, then? It's subjective and always prone to change. There is no set boundary to morality. It gives an excuse to people who control the trends to allow ignorant laws to be passed just because it's the "Moral" thing to do. I don't like the idea much, deal with it.

[huginnmuninn]

i think that without religion we would have an economic boost. example:

a family is religious and donates $5 every sunday to the local church.
if they do this every sunday of the year $5 x 52 = $260
if they do this every day for 40 years $260 x 40 = $10400
now lets imagine that 100000 families do this $10400 x 100000 = $1040000000
thats adds up to a lot of money that could go into improving the economy or helping people who need it or any number of other things

now actually while looking up stuff on the internet i found out that actually $107 billion a year thats a lot of money that could be better spent. also religious group dont pay taxes. that includes property taxes which if a non religious or a non charity group owned they would pay taxes which would increase the money the government has and maybe decrease the debt.

theres now way we can tell what the world would be like without religion but there would be a lot more money thats all i can say

[Angel Androgynous]

Improving the church's economy...

And religious groups don't pay taxes....

[User Deleted]

We do not need religion. Although we do not have to do away with it as long as people aren't sticking their heads in others people shit and getting mad about differing religion.