Should the word "god" be in the pledge of elegance?

[slappy]

What do u think?

[Continuum]

I think this thread is inherently biased with the large amount of irreligious people here in VT. But in this case, remove it. It proves bad for the ambiguity of the American demographic.

[deadpie]

They didn't add Under God until 1954 and personally I think it kills off the idea of America being "diverse". There's really no point to it and not everyone believes in 'God' or is Christian. I have a group of friends that go to a Catholic School and one of them seriously had to talk to the principal of the fucking school because he decided to sit down and be quiet the entire time.

And yes, they're speaking of the Christian God in the pledge. You can thank this douche bag minister named George Docherty for pushing his faith to help convince it into the pledge.

Also..... this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXpASqKbrTM)

So take it out of the Pledge Of Allegiance.

Here's what Dwight Douchebag Eisenhower has to say on the subject - "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

Fuck. And how do you know your God even gives a shit about your country in the first place? God loves America? How do you know?

Seriously this shit is fucking dumb and it needs to be torn out of the pledge.

[Peace God]

Tradition is always overrated and leaving it there is just a middle finger to non-theists (or polythiests)...take it out.

[Severus Snape]

Because it was added in the 50s to distinguish America from the godless heathen communists and its ridiculous.

[User Deleted]

We should keep it, people who dont like it just shouldnt be forced to say it, i hate when the goverment says we have to do something. The pledge In my opinion just needs to be said less or done away with...

[Jess]

Pledge of elegance? What's that? :P

sorry. anyways, I don't really care if there's 'God' in there. I don't say the Pledge anyways

[slappy]

We should keep it, people who dont like it just shouldnt be forced to say it, i hate when the goverment says we have to do something. The pledge In my opinion just needs to be said less or done away with...

Well the government is saying what the pledge is

[A.J.]

I dont think its so much used in a christian context as is it is a symbol for 'may luck and goodfortune keep us protected'.

[justmehere]

i could really careless about the pledge of elegance. it's not like i say it myself.
but i think it shouldn't be said in public places(schools and such)

[Immortal Love]

I think it should be kept in. Maybe my views are a little biast, since I am a Christian, but still. For teh majority, it should be left in. If someone has a problem with saying it, why don't they , as an indvidual, choose not to say it. I have a friend who dosn't say it at all, and yes, that bothers me. My grandfather fought in World War 2, meaning he fought for the freedom I have today. For our flag, for everything.

If people have a issue with saying "Under God", then that is too stinking bad. They don't HAVE to say it, and if they get offended by people who do say it, then they can leave.

Thats my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

[Craig1995]

Tbh it's not really doing any harm is it?? :)

[Perseus]

I honestly don't care. I don't say it ever because I don't like the idea of pride in your country. I'm atheist, too. Having "God" doesn't bother me. Keep it. Take it out. I don't care.

[Korashk]

I dont think its so much used in a christian context as is it is a symbol for 'may luck and goodfortune keep us protected'.
You'd be wrong. See:

Because it was added in the 50s to distinguish America from the godless heathen communists and its ridiculous.
This is a simplified and accurate version of what actually happened.

[Cudder]

Well god created earth so the least we could do is put his name in a pledge. And to the non believers and science junkies, that's just my decision. I'm not trying to start any arguments or make anyone mad

[Perseus]

Well god created earth so the least we could do is put his name in a pledge. And to the non believers and science junkies, that's just my decision. I'm not trying to start any arguments or make anyone mad

Not everyone is Christian (or an Abraham religion) here in the U.S., you know.

[Sage]

Well god created earth so the least we could do is put his name in a pledge. And to the non believers and science junkies, that's just my decision. I'm not trying to start any arguments or make anyone mad

I'm pretty sure the least we could do would be nothing at all, and remain neutral on the matter, as a government should on matters of religion.

[deadpie]

I think it should be kept in. Maybe my views are a little biast, since I am a Christian, but still. For teh majority, it should be left in.

YES! Let's keep it in because the majority like it. Fuck the other people who don't agree. They don't have a voice.

yes, that bothers me.

Why does it bother you? How dare he not pledge to this symbolic cloth and not say under God. I hate people who do things that I don't do!

My grandfather fought in World War 2, meaning he fought for the freedom I have today. For our flag, for everything.

He fought for a flag? That's pretty sad.

If people have a issue with saying "Under God", then that is too stinking bad.

Really? What if the pledge of allegience said something like, "Under Allah", "Under Elohim", or "Under El Cantare". They all mean God but are used for different religions. Would you have a problem with it then? Or would you just simply deal with it?

They don't HAVE to say it, and if they get offended by people who do say it, then they can leave.

Yeah, because it's not like in Georgia there was a girl who got kicked off the volleyball team for not saying the pledge. All because schools say they let people sit down during it doesn't mean they actually do. Believe it or not allot of school systems are fucked up.

Well god created earth so the least we could do is put his name in a pledge. And to the non believers and science junkies, that's just my decision. I'm not trying to start any arguments or make anyone mad

Christianity isn't the only religion people practice in America. Do people literally just think you're either Christian or an Atheist here? Are people really that closed minded these days?

Seriously, the pledge isn't fair.

I dont think its so much used in a christian context as is it is a symbol for 'may luck and goodfortune keep us protected'.

Like I said, "And yes, they're speaking of the Christian God in the pledge. You can thank this douche bag minister named George Docherty for pushing his faith to help convince it into the pledge. "

[Limelight788]

I'm not that bothered by it at all, as a matter of fact, I don't understand why it's such a huge deal to have that one word in. Personally, I don't have a problem with it

[slappy]

YES! Let's keep it in because the majority like it. Fuck the other people who don't agree. They don't have a voice. "

That's a pretty big judgment coming from a christian

[Jess]

I'm pretty sure he's not a Christian...

[slappy]

Yea, I think he is
Sure sounds like it

[slappy]

I could be wrong tho
He could just be picking a fight

[JackShephard]

Well I heard something like only 16 percent of people who answered in a poll made by NBC said it was an issue. So if that's true, why is there a huge thing about it? Because 16 percent is a lot in terms of the whole American population (even though the whole country didn't answer the poll) I guess someone could argue that if it where to say "under (some other god)" then it would be a bigger issue. So the size of the debate depends on who believes what I guess.

Honestly, if it is truly offensive to this many people, then it should be considered weather to take it out. But I'm weird in a way. I like keeping tradition. So for me, it's sort of a toss up.

Also, it doesn't really have to refer to the christian god, but the one of your choosing (even through that was the one originally mentioned in the pledge)

[deadpie]

That's a pretty big judgment coming from a christian

I was using sarcasm. It's quite obvious that I'm not Christian if you read my entire post, which I'm guessing you skimmed through it. Also, I'm sure there's lots of Christians who disagree with keeping Under God in the pledge too.

[Iceman]

That's a pretty big judgment coming from a christian

99.9 percent chance that was sarcastic ;)

Edit: That lonely .1 percent chance, never stood a chance. It is comfired to be sarcastic.

[Amnesiac]

Better idea: let's not have a pledge at all.

Fuck the government, I don't want them telling me what to pledge allegiance to, or even recommending that I pledge allegiance to something.

[Iceman]

It's to make the flag feel better:rolleyes:

[Sogeking]

Fuck the government, I don't want them telling me what to pledge allegiance to, or even recommending that I pledge allegiance to something.

Why?

[Amnesiac]

Why?

Because I'm an independent person; I don't deserve to be lectured by the government on how amazing the United States is and why I should pledge allegiance to its flag. If I'm going to be required to attend public school, I should be able to retain my freedom of thought while there. It's not right for the government to ever tell anybody what to think or to say, especially not in the name of 'patriotism'.

I mean, I think the U.S. is a great country and I really do enjoy living here, but it's not right for them to make me say that I love it. There are other countries I have stronger connections to than the U.S., yet the American government is telling me I have to pledge allegiance to their flag above any other?

[Sogeking]

You don't have to say the pledge, noone is forcing you to.

[Perseus]

You don't have to say the pledge, noone is forcing you to.

Some schools force you to, actually.

[Fruit_Tart.]

It doesn't matter to me, but if I had a choice I would want it out. Not everybody believes in a god or gods, so why destroy their views?
Tbh I think most people follow the government wayy too much.

[Amnesiac]

You don't have to say the pledge, noone is forcing you to.

Doesn't matter. I'm still required to stand for it, and I'm looked down upon by many for not saying it. It's a pointless institution that causes too much trouble for what it's worth, which is nothing.

The fact that one has to get permission not to stand for something is completely contrary to the values that the United States is based on.

[User Deleted]

The pledge in my opinion is worthless, the goverment not agreeing I rarely complain about it. I say its a waste of 30 seconds of my life every day, but I say it anyway because theres no reason to make a mountian out of a mole hill.

As i have said before, I think we should not be required to say it and leave it as is with its miniscule historical value.

[Iceman]

I got scorned at my school for saying the pledge is useless.

[User Deleted]

I got scorned at my school for saying the pledge is useless.

Exactly why I rarely complain about how pointless it is, the first time in kindergarden is special, afterwards it is a waste of time taken for granted.

[Severus Snape]

Well god created earth

That's debatable.

[User Deleted]

That's debatable.

Ah, the world of religon, no way to proove its correct, no way to prove it wrong :rolleyes:

[deadpie]

Ah, the world of religon, no way to proove its correct, no way to prove it wrong :rolleyes:

You can disprove parts of religion, thus disprove religion. You just can't prove/disprove a higher power exists (yet). Yes, there's a difference.

[User Deleted]

You can disprove parts of religion, thus disprove religion. You just can't prove/disprove a higher power exists (yet). Yes, there's a difference.

Fair enough, still I was kind of right...

[Severus Snape]

Ah, the world of religon, no way to proove its correct, no way to prove it wrong :rolleyes:

I can very well dismantle most dogmatic beliefs. The trouble is those who willfully cling to the shreds of religious belief that cannot be disproven. The best we can do against such obstinance is behave in as similarly a ridiculous fashion as they. Which is why I worship Memnoch the High Elf as my god interchangeably with the Roman pantheon.

[User Deleted]

I can very well dismantle most dogmatic beliefs. The trouble is those who willfully cling to the shreds of religious belief that cannot be disproven. The best we can do against such obstinance is behave in as similarly a ridiculous fashion as they. Which is why I worship Memnoch the High Elf as my god interchangeably with the Roman pantheon.

One flaw though, you can inturperet religon literally, or metaphorically. Metaphorically seems far more accurate to me, and i find is harder to disprove.

[Severus Snape]

One flaw though, you can inturperet religon literally, or metaphorically. Metaphorically seems far more accurate to me, and i find is harder to disprove.

The simple fact that everyone can interpret it metaphorically in an infinite number of ways disproves the notion of any sort of religious truth. A metaporical interpretation simply cannot be accurate because it is nothing more than opinion.

[User Deleted]

The simple fact that everyone can interpret it metaphorically in an infinite number of ways disproves the notion of any sort of religious truth. A metaporical interpretation simply cannot be accurate because it is nothing more than opinion.

...what?

[Severus Snape]

In short, my interpretation of the bible can be and is different from yours. That in no way makes the bible a valid religious text espousing some sort of subjective truth

[Memory]

I'm a Christian (inb4 God isn't real lololololSHIFT11111) and I say it should be removed. I mean America supports diversity right? And the fact that "under God" is in there looks to me like some kind of subliminal message saying that you can't be American without being a Christian.

[User Deleted]

In short, my interpretation of the bible can be and is different from yours. That in no way makes the bible a valid religious text espousing some sort of subjective truth

Well, everyone is entitled to their own belifes, its the persons choice to have faith or not in a religon. And as you say how much religion is often disprovable, what is the proof?

[Happz]

I personally have no problem with it, but you shouldn't be forced into saying it if you don't believe in god and such. Take it out.

[Severus Snape]

Well, everyone is entitled to their own belifes, its the persons choice to have faith or not in a religon. And as you say how much religion is often disprovable, what is the proof?

Are you asking me to disprove something which has not been proven? Because that is impossible.

Also, what is a "pledge of elegance"?

[huginnmuninn]

pledge of elegance i believe is the pledge to be elegant in every thing someone does but then again that might just be a major typo

[Bougainvillea]

Yeah, it's supposed to be "allegiance".

Honestly, the pledge means so little in the grand scheme of things. And the fact people still enforce it is sad. It's almost Hitler sad.

[User Deleted]

Are you asking me to disprove something which has not been proven? Because that is impossible.


hence, my piont, it cannot be proven or disproven, in many ways it is a matter of opinion if religion is real.

anyways off topic comment, you seem to be very well educated :)

[embers]

hence, my piont, it cannot be proven or disproven, in many ways it is a matter of opinion if religion is real.

Statement: At the centre of the universe floats a metaphysical form of my great grandfather.

Can it be proven? No.
Can it be disproved? No.

Therefore, I believe that at the centre of the universe, a metaphysical form of my great grandfather lingers about.

Do you see logic in this?

[User Deleted]

Statement: At the centre of the universe floats a metaphysical form of my great grandfather.

Can it be proven? No.
Can it be disproved? No.

Therefore, I believe that at the centre of the universe, a metaphysical form of my great grandfather lingers about.

Do you see logic in this?

ok I see where you are coming from, thanks for making me feel stupid :rolleyes: :P

[embers]

ok I see where you are coming from, thanks for making me feel stupid :rolleyes: :P

Sorry, it's just that I can't believe the amount of people on the internet that believe in something because it 'cannot be disproved'.

[User Deleted]

But, there is debatable proof of that it is true and that it is false, but with this evidence you can not disprove it or proove it.

where is the evidence in your example?

[embers]

But, there is debatable proof of that it is true and that it is false, but with this evidence you can not disprove it or proove it.

where is the evidence in your example?

I'd love to see evidence that God exists beyond 'it is written in [soandso religion's holy book]' and 'we all HAD to come from something!'

As for evidence in my example, let's say said great grandfather wrote a book on how he would achieve this state of being in the centre of the universe after his death.

[User Deleted]

hmmm my IQ is dropping by the second is it not? :P :( :rolleyes:
I keep getting proved wrong

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jesseshunting.com/images/3stooges_face_palm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2010/12/28/1899864/the-bears-den-december-28-2010&usg=__hL4f9VTpOuOd2v143mFEFzRAh9U=&h=370&w=492&sz=39&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Ck4r7rqs3qtEpM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=173&ei=ycioTZbEM4f4sAPu-7iiCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfacepalm%2Bthree%2Bstooges%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1276%26bih%3D714%26gbv %3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=361&oei=ycioTZbEM4f4sAPu-7iiCQ&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=56&ty=68
yes this picture is referring to me

[Marky]

I think that it should stay in
> first its not specifically pointing to the christian god or the indian godss, but maybe something that you look too in guidens.

[Amnesiac]

I think that it should stay in
> first its not specifically pointing to the christian god or the indian godss, but maybe something that you look too in guidens.

I'm a Buddhist atheist. I don't look towards a god. Why should I pledge allegiance to a country that, as the pledge suggests, is 'guided' by something I don't believe in?

[Peace God]

I think that it should stay in
> first its not specifically pointing to the christian god or the indian godss, but maybe something that you look too in guidens.
Or maybe something that I don't want in the pledge.

[Craig1995]

The English word for the Christian god is lord or there is the anglicised name Jehovah which is derived from the Hebrew "YHWH" or by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai There for god does not an anyway HAVE to refer to the Christian god because it is too general.

[Perseus]

The English word for the Christian god is lord or there is the anglicised name Jehovah which is derived from the Hebrew "YHWH" or by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai There for god does not an anyway HAVE to refer to the Christian god because it is too general.

Last time I checked, everyone calls him God. "I pray to God." "I hope that God is on my side."

[Suicune]

Take it out, not everybody in America is Christian. Better yet, get rid of the pledge, I don't have to pledge anything to my country or the Christian God.

I've stopped standing up for the pledge every morning and got yelled at. ._.
But I still do it and now most people sit down with me! I guess it's nice to see people who feel the same way. :P
School's shouldn't force it.

[Craig1995]

Last time I checked, everyone calls him God. "I pray to God." "I hope that God is on my side."

I said the word god dosent HAVE to refer to the christian god.

[Amnesiac]

I said the word god dosent HAVE to refer to the christian god.

Doesn't matter, it still refers to the monotheistic religions. Keeping it in unfairly places the monotheistic religions higher than other religions, like Eastern ones, and secular beliefs, like atheism.

[Perseus]

I said the word god dosent HAVE to refer to the christian god.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, unto the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

Sounds and looks like the Christian god to me.

[Dive to Survive]

He fought for a flag? That's pretty sad.

How dare you! You're talking about a man of our country who put his life on the line to keep you happy! And you are going to sit there and criticize him? I am truly astonished as to what this world is coming to!
I think God should stay in the pledge. I think Mac is right, it is the least we could do to thank Him.
When you create a universe, then you can complain about a pledge, alright?

[Amnesiac]

How dare you! You're talking about a man of our country who put his life on the line to keep you happy! And you are going to sit there and criticize him? I am truly astonished as to what this world is coming to!

You seem irritated.

I think God should stay in the pledge. I think Mac is right, it is the least we could do to thank Him.
When you create a universe, then you can complain about a pledge, alright?

Okay, you're obviously blind to the fact that not everybody believes what you do. Keep your beliefs to yourself. You and the government need to learn that.

I and millions of other people in this country don't believe in God. Many don't even believe in this kind of blind, ridiculous patriotism we call the Pledge. It's not fair to us. Fuck the government, and fuck the Republicans and Democrats who support this retarded indoctrination that's plagued our schools for the past 60 years.

[Sage]

I said the word god dosent HAVE to refer to the christian god.

How about we change it to 'Giant Corporate Penis' then? "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, unto the republic for which it stands, one nation, under a giant corporate penis, indivisible with liberty and justice for all." It doesn't HAVE to refer to the actual giant corporate penis that's violating every single orifice of nearly four hundred million people. You can just interpret that any way you like.

[Severus Snape]

hence, my piont, it cannot be proven or disproven, in many ways it is a matter of opinion if religion is real.

anyways off topic comment, you seem to be very well educated :)

Religion cannot be disproved the same way transvestite glitter farting unicorns cannot be disproved. And thanks

[deadpie]

How dare you! You're talking about a man of our country who put his life on the line to keep you happy!

You mean a man who's fighting for a pointless war machine that America needs to show how 'tough' we are. The most he's doing is doing a job. That's all. I don't see how him fighting for my so called rights that I don't have is going to keep me happy when I'm not happy in the first place.

It's just a cloth. That's all it is to me. I'm not going to pledge to a fucking cloth and I'm certainly not going to give a moment of silence to a figure that's not there.

I think God should stay in the pledge. I think Mac is right, it is the least we could do to thank Him.
When you create a universe, then you can complain about a pledge, alright?

I think Xenu should stay in the pledge. I think Hubbard is right, it is the least we could do to thank him.
When you've dropped atom bombs in volcanoes, then you can complain about a pledge, alright?

Lol, what if Scientology was the majority religion and it was Xenu instead of "God" in the pledge? Would you still say it should be kept? Or what if it said Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, or Ishvar? If it said that would you just shrug your shoulder and say the pledge anyway even though it's not the same God you believe in? Sure all those names translate to God but they all go for different religions.

This is what I keep telling people and it seems like nobody is actually giving a fuck or listening. Someone please tell me what makes the minority less important like their voice is pointless and the majority apparently gets to speak for everyone? It's stupid.

EVEN if you are Christian, you need to take in consideration there's other people with different beliefs and not all of them want to stand up and say "Under God" because that's not what they believe in nor is it fair at all. So instead we should just kick it out. Our country went a long time without the usage of it, so I don't see why we can't just take it out again.

[Sogeking]

You mean a man who's fighting for a pointless war machine that America needs to show how 'tough' we are.

He's talking about a man who fought in WWII when we had no choice in joining because it was going to threaten our freedoms. Not this fail war known as the war on terror.

[KodieBear]

take it out. not everyone believes in God.

[Saosin]

I would say keep it. The fact of the matter is, if you are religious or athiest, it does no harm. It does not force religion down peoples throat in any way shape or form.

[User Deleted]

Religion cannot be disproved the same way transvestite glitter farting unicorns cannot be disproved. And thanks
you're welcome

And i'm giving up on this conversation, I keep getting proved wrong :P, Its like I'm getting dimmer by the second

[Severus Snape]

you're welcome

And i'm giving up on this conversation, I keep getting proved wrong :P, Its like I'm getting dimmer by the second

I don't mean to sound patronizing but you are a bit on the young side. Eventually you'll develop your own reasoned opinions and be better able to stand your ground.

[User Deleted]

I don't mean to sound patronizing but you are a bit on the young side. Eventually you'll develop your own reasoned opinions and be better able to stand your ground.

Not patronizing me at all, I agree with you, I will be smarter later on in life... unless I'm hospitalized or something like this happens: :guillotine:

[Amnesiac]

I would say keep it. The fact of the matter is, if you are religious or athiest, it does no harm. It does not force religion down peoples throat in any way shape or form.

Yes, because the government forcing minors to pledge allegiance to a nation that is "under God" isn't pushing religion down people's throats at all.

[Spook]

I also think that it should be taken out, because alot of people in America are "Athiests" or don't believe in god. This screws up the idea of america being a diverse country culture and religion-wise. :)

[User Deleted]

Let me point out the pledges flaws:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag"
No allegiance for you, I don't think a flag needs my trust.

"of the united states of america"
We all know Alaska will break away from the union don't deny it

"and to the republic for which it stands"
Were a democratic republic for Pete sake.

"one nation, under god"
No, we've been over this. atheists, lots of em.

"Indivisible"
again, Alaska WILL separate from the union one day.

"with liberty and justice for all"
worst part of the pledge. No kids are not open to their own decisions (more than other countries but still...) and do you know how many guilty people get let off the hook and innocent people who get sentenced sometimes even to death.

[deadpie]

"one nation, under god"
No, we've been over this. atheists, lots of em.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST ATHEISTS. See, that's the thing I'm trying to point out! Not everyone pronounces God as 'God'. So yes, what I'm saying is when people hear God they're going to think of Christianity.

This is getting annoying having to repeat the same thing over and over, but I guess that's what debating is.

[Sogeking]

Yes, because the government forcing minors to pledge allegiance to a nation that is "under God" isn't pushing religion down people's throats at all.

Are you saying you wouldn't mind saying the pledge if the words "under God" were taken out?

[Ryunosuke]

Just So I Don't Have To Get Involved. :P Jk It Give Some People Meaning To Say It. Plus If You Don't Like It, DON"T SAY IT!

[UnknownError]

Im not American so my opinion on this is indifferent.
But if I was in America, and I was American, I'd say take it out. Due to the facts already said 20 times in this thread. Not everyone believe's in a God, and it is pretty obvious it is talking about the Christian God, so that also means all the other religion's are pushed out the way.
So yeah, take it out. Not that it matters to me though.

[Perseus]

Let me point out the pledges flaws:


"of the united states of america"
We all know Alaska will break away from the union don't deny it




"Indivisible"
again, Alaska WILL separate from the union one day.



What the fuck are you going on about?

[Kahn]

"Indivisible"
again, Alaska WILL separate from the union one day.

I've also come to the realization that one day our most beloved state will be lost to the elements. We will all weep in terror once that day comes, for our majestic nation will have lost its most favored state.

[Sith Lord 13]

Yes, because the government forcing minors to pledge allegiance to a nation that is "under God" isn't pushing religion down people's throats at all.

Then the fault is not in the pledge itself but in it's enforcement.

[Jennifer's Ashes]

the pledge of allegiance states many of the foundations upon which our country was to be created. for example, that it was to be one nation under GOD. to remove this would be an injustice to our founding fathers.

think wha you want, but no one's about to change the freaking pledge of allegiance.

[User Deleted]

What the fuck are you going on about?

Alaska is in all likely hood, will separate from the rest of the U.S., My friend explained it to me and it's sort of complicated :eek:

[Iceman]

Alaska is in all likely hood, will separate from the rest of the U.S., My friend explained it to me and it's sort of complicated :eek:

Are you serious? I hope not. They wouldn't think about doing such a thing. Ever.

[Amnesiac]

Are you saying you wouldn't mind saying the pledge if the words "under God" were taken out?

I would still mind, if it were still as hard to exempt as it currently is.

Then the fault is not in the pledge itself but in it's enforcement.

Indeed. Ideally, the pledge would simply be abolished, but legally, removing the ridiculous exemption policies and the words "under God" is a justifiable compromise.

[User Deleted]

Are you serious? I hope not. They wouldn't think about doing such a thing. Ever.

Well think about all the stupid things people do. It probably won't happen soon, but in due time... most likely...

[Iceman]

Well think about all the stupid things people do. It probably won't happen soon, but in due time... most likely...

They would be lashed and put back in their place.

I say take out the pledge all together.

[Amnesiac]

"and to the republic for which it stands"
Were a democratic republic for Pete sake.

Nope. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States)

[User Deleted]

They would be lashed and put back in their place.

I say take out the pledge all together.

Meh, probably

agreed, but If we keep the pledge I still stand with leave it. If you don't want to say the pledge you don't have to.

[User Deleted]

Nope. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States)

Don't trust Wikipedia all of the time...

[Iceman]

Meh, probably

agreed, but If we keep the pledge I still stand with leave it. If you don't want to say the pledge you don't have to.

At my school you get sent to the office if you don't stand up. They force you. You don't have to say it though. I never do.

[User Deleted]

At my school you get sent to the office if you don't stand up. They force you. You don't have to say it though. I never do.

What about putting your right hand over your'e heart? Did they make you do that?

[Amnesiac]

Don't trust Wikipedia all of the time...

Fine then. (http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html)

At my school you get sent to the office if you don't stand up. They force you. You don't have to say it though. I never do.

Unfortunately, this is the case in most schools.

[Iceman]

What about putting your right hand over your'e heart? Did they make you do that?

Not that I know of.

[User Deleted]

Fine then. (http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html)



Unfortunately, this is the case in most schools.

Ok fine, but its still a democratic republic. Its a republic, but its kind of like a subdivision.

[Amnesiac]

Ok fine, but its still a democratic republic. Its a republic, but its kind of like a subdivision.

Well, that's debatable, but we're straying off topic.

[Sith Lord 13]

Indeed. Ideally, the pledge would simply be abolished, but legally, removing the ridiculous exemption policies and the words "under God" is a justifiable compromise.

Actually the ideal solution would be to leave the pledge as is, and allow people to choose not to pledge or to omit certain parts.

[Amnesiac]

Actually the ideal solution would be to leave the pledge as is, and allow people to choose not to pledge or to omit certain parts.

I think having a minute-long "moment of silence" in the morning with the option for students to pray/say the pledge/do other personal things is the best solution. That way, you're not having the government imposing the pledge on students at all, yet you're still giving students the option to say it.

I'm a bit iffy on the idea of having the school lead the pledge of allegiance over the PA system. Really, it should be 100% personal.

[User Deleted]

I think having a minute-long "moment of silence" in the morning with the option for students to pray/say the pledge/do other personal things is the best solution. That way, you're not having the government imposing the pledge on students at all, yet you're still giving students the option to say it.

I'm a bit iffy on the idea of having the school lead the pledge of allegiance over the PA system. Really, it should be 100% personal.
Actually... Thats a really good idea! :eek::D:P

[Jody Jackson]

I really could care less but I don't see the point in focusing on a minor subject such as this. If they take it out of the pledge, then someone will want to take it off of every coin, dollar bill, the national anthem, etc.

[Bougainvillea]

Actually... Thats a really good idea! :eek::D:P

I think that's actually already been implemented to replace prayer in schools.

[Genghis Khan]

I suppose it's kind of a smack in the face to some of the atheists/polytheists, because by mentioning God or his grace in any national anthem you're making the assumption that there is one and that could in turn affect people's beliefs. But, that really depends I mean, how many people in America know the entire pledge of allegiance anyway? (not assuming most of them don't, I'm actually asking for statistics or figures of some sort)

Being secular, I'd say keep God out of anything to do with the state.

[embers]

Rawal - nearly all American schools make the students recite the pledge of allegiance. Just about every American knows it.

[Genghis Khan]

Rawal - nearly all American schools make the students recite the pledge of allegiance. Just about every American knows it.

All right, my bad.

[anonymous.john]

the pledge of allegiance states many of the foundations upon which our country was to be created. for example, that it was to be one nation under GOD. to remove this would be an injustice to our founding fathers.

think wha you want, but no one's about to change the freaking pledge of allegiance.

No, you're wrong. And I'll illustrate why, you're wrong on three points: 1) The USA was founded to be a secular nation that prevented the meddling of religion in national affairs. 2) The Pledge was written in 1829 and is not a founding document. 3) The words "under God." were added to the pledge in 1954, they were not part of the original document. Which also makes you wrong about no one changing the Pledge, because it's already happened.

I really could care less but I don't see the point in focusing on a minor subject such as this. If they take it out of the pledge, then someone will want to take it off of every coin, dollar bill, the national anthem, etc.

Please do. "The governmant shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." A belief in an unspecified "God" is an establishment of religion. Also, the national anthem doesn't include a reference to any God. E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, one.) is a much better national motto than "In God We Trust." This whole business about being a "godly nation" arose out of the Cold War hate of communism which was primarily but not exclusively atheistic. The USA was trying its best to differentiate, and they saw religion as a clear way to draw a line, so they started spewing religious stuff against communism.

[The Ninja]

Ya no what sucks, if you take it out you offend the millions of religious people who live in the United States, if you don't you offend the millions of Atheists who live in the United States. Honestly though if it isn't broken don't fix it and if you choose to say it without under god in it good for you. I am personally an Atheist who recently converted from Christianity I still say under god, but thats probably because I don't want my friends and family to realize my conversion.

[Kaya]

I think having a minute-long "moment of silence" in the morning with the option for students to pray/say the pledge/do other personal things is the best solution. That way, you're not having the government imposing the pledge on students at all, yet you're still giving students the option to say it.

I'm a bit iffy on the idea of having the school lead the pledge of allegiance over the PA system. Really, it should be 100% personal.

I agree with that.

In my opinion...it's a pledge...so you only have to say it once and maybe on special occasions.

So, at school, I'd just not stand up.and I got in trouble. That's stupid.

[anonymous.john]

Ya no what sucks, if you take it out you offend the millions of religious people who live in the United States, if you don't you offend the millions of Atheists who live in the United States.

In government issues, they must exclude themselves from the business of religion. They may mention God/Gods, but they may not endorse God/Gods. If millions of believers take offense at the non-mention of something, they're stupid, plain and simple. Add the words in if you want, it's not our government's business to endorse any religion over another or religion over irreligion.

[restricted NA]

I personally don't believe it's prejudice towards people who are not christian. Perhaps people who are offended by it can place a different word in the regards to their specific religion :)

[Perseus]

I personally don't believe it's prejudice towards people who are not christian. Perhaps people who are offended by it can place a different word in the regards to their specific religion :)

Then why have it in the first place?

[The Ninja]

In government issues, they must exclude themselves from the business of religion. They may mention God/Gods, but they may not endorse God/Gods. If millions of believers take offense at the non-mention of something, they're stupid, plain and simple. Add the words in if you want, it's not our government's business to endorse any religion over another or religion over irreligion.

This got me thinking, they also shouldn't have the right to endorse "irreligion" over religion. By this I mean in public schools (at least in Indiana) you have no right to talk about your god. This in my opinion is absolute bull shit. If Atheists (why the fuck is the e before the i?) have the right to not talk about religion I think religious people should have the right TO speak about their beliefs. I think the real problem is that our constitution is too fucking contradictory.

[anonymous.john]

This got me thinking, they also shouldn't have the right to endorse "irreligion" over religion. By this I mean in public schools (at least in Indiana) you have no right to talk about your god. This in my opinion is absolute bull shit. If Atheists (why the fuck is the e before the i?) have the right to not talk about religion I think religious people should have the right TO speak about their beliefs. I think the real problem is that our constitution is too fucking contradictory.

Anyone should be able to talk about whatever they damn well please, but Government MUST NOT ENDORSE any religious point of view. I would no sooner have them say "One nation, that doesn't believe in God," than I would "under God." Everyone is, of course, entitled to their own beliefs and opinions. You can believe whatever the hell you want, but the government must not endorse any one point of view. Not mentioning God/Gods is not endorsing irreligion, it's not endorsing anything.

The e is before the i because it derives from the word "theist," which is someone who follows a "theology."

[The Ninja]

Anyone should be able to talk about whatever they damn well please, but Government MUST NOT ENDORSE any religious point of view. I would no sooner have them say "One nation, that doesn't believe in God," than I would "under God." Everyone is, of course, entitled to their own beliefs and opinions. You can believe whatever the hell you want, but the government must not endorse any one point of view. Not mentioning God/Gods is not endorsing irreligion, it's not endorsing anything.

The e is before the i because it derives from the word "theist," which is someone who follows a "theology."

I'm glad we have a come to a point of a agreement. : )

[cam.12.]

keep it. it shouldn't matter.

[anonymous.john]

keep it. it shouldn't matter.

But it does matter. It's against the 1st amendment.

[FainAgain]

Tell me, how does having the word God in the pledge of allegiance even remotely effect your life?

[Peace God]

Tell me, how does having the word God in the pledge of allegiance even remotely effect your life?
Which side are you addressing this to?

[Amnesiac]

Tell me, how does having the word God in the pledge of allegiance even remotely effect your life?

It may not have affected mine, but it's effected the lives of others (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS371US377&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=student+punished+for+not+saying+pledge). The fact is that it's a blatant example of the government unnecessarily and, depending on what court you consult, illegally establishing the existence of a creator god. While it may be a relatively mundane issue, it still undermines the established law of the United States, which is not acceptable in any case.

Sure, it may not effect everyone. But asking a question like that is like asking "Tell me, how does having a law against murder even remotely effect your life?"

[Travis_123]

Yeah we're just to this nonsense

[Sith Lord 13]

It may not have affected mine, but it's effected the lives of others (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS371US377&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=student+punished+for+not+saying+pledge). The fact is that it's a blatant example of the government unnecessarily and, depending on what court you consult, illegally establishing the existence of a creator god. While it may be a relatively mundane issue, it still undermines the established law of the United States, which is not acceptable in any case.

Sure, it may not effect everyone. But asking a question like that is like asking "Tell me, how does having a law against murder even remotely effect your life?"

Again, this has nothing to do with god being the pledge and all having to do with the pledge's enforcement, which is wrong on multiple levels.

[restricted NA]

Then why have it in the first place?

eh perhaps because the people who started America like George Washington and ect. were religious. America started with the Pilgrims and they were religious as well. So i suppose it has something to do with historical roots :P

[Amnesiac]

Again, this has nothing to do with god being the pledge and all having to do with the pledge's enforcement, which is wrong on multiple levels.

I should've mentioned I'm against anything to do with the pledge :rolleyes:

eh perhaps because the people who started America like George Washington and ect. were religious. America started with the Pilgrims and they were religious as well. So i suppose it has something to do with historical roots :P

Sure, they were religious, but that doesn't have anything to do with modern American law. Many of the colonies pioneered modern freedom of religion law, and Thomas Jefferson coined the term "separation of church and state". Still, none of that matters, because we base current law strictly off of what the Founding Fathers put in the Constitution, not other things they personally believed.

[RoseyCadaver]

YES! Let's keep it in because the majority like it. Fuck the other people who don't agree. They don't have a voice.



Why does it bother you? How dare he not pledge to this symbolic cloth and not say under God. I hate people who do things that I don't do!



He fought for a flag? That's pretty sad.



Really? What if the pledge of allegience said something like, "Under Allah", "Under Elohim", or "Under El Cantare". They all mean God but are used for different religions. Would you have a problem with it then? Or would you just simply deal with it?



Yeah, because it's not like in Georgia there was a girl who got kicked off the volleyball team for not saying the pledge. All because schools say they let people sit down during it doesn't mean they actually do. Believe it or not allot of school systems are fucked up.



Christianity isn't the only religion people practice in America. Do people literally just think you're either Christian or an Atheist here? Are people really that closed minded these days?

Seriously, the pledge isn't fair.



Like I said, "And yes, they're speaking of the Christian God in the pledge. You can thank this douche bag minister named George Docherty for pushing his faith to help convince it into the pledge. "
I smell Troll :) XD

[Jess]

eh perhaps because the people who started America like George Washington and ect. were religious. America started with the Pilgrims and they were religious as well. So i suppose it has something to do with historical roots :P

sorry if I'm wrong, but I learned in Government class that most of our Founding Fathers were not religious. they were Deists..........

[restricted NA]

sorry if I'm wrong, but I learned in Government class that most of our Founding Fathers were not religious. they were Deists..........

no that fine, just making a guess :P
Im more of a math person :)

[anonymous.john]

Again, this has nothing to do with god being the pledge and all having to do with the pledge's enforcement, which is wrong on multiple levels.

It has everything to do with "under God" being in the pledge because the Government endorses the pledge and the Government modified the already existing pledge to include those words. Let me make this clear, the original writer of the pledge did not include "under God."

[tpzy94]

nah cause it wouldnt make a diff why take it away from the pledge because of the people who dont want to say it...other peope want to

[anonymous.john]

nah cause it wouldnt make a diff why take it away from the pledge because of the people who dont want to say it...other peope want to

You take it away because it's not within the Government's legal rights to endorse any religious views.

If people want to say that, fine, but the government is not allowed to mandate that as law.

[All The Small Things]

i belvien in god but not realy and kananme god did not make the earth thats hillbilly redneck crazy talk the earth was here before humans and dinosrer and how did god put is life on the line for USA i think the troops do dude not god if dont get god put is life on the line the troops do

[Korashk]

eh perhaps because the people who started America like George Washington and ect. were religious. America started with the Pilgrims and they were religious as well. So i suppose it has something to do with historical roots :P
Incorrect. The phrase "under god" is only in the pledge because in the 50s a senator wanted to change it to show that America would be staunchly against "godless communism". It's a reactionary measure out in place during the red scare.

[slappy]

Tell me, how does having the word God in the pledge of allegiance even remotely effect your life?

Well, the god part dose not bother me that much, it's just the constitution states that government and realign should not be one in the same, and having the word god is declaring the united states a christian nation, and that is against the constitution.

[Saosin]

Yes, because the government forcing minors to pledge allegiance to a nation that is "under God" isn't pushing religion down people's throats at all.

I would say that you have a point, but you are in no way shape or form forced to say this part of the Pledge of Allegiance. You also aren't demanded to say the pledge if you do not want to. It is all a matter of choice. That's why there is no harm in it.

It simply shows that America is open to all forms of religious views. It doesn't specify.

You take it away because it's not within the Government's legal rights to endorse any religious views.

If people want to say that, fine, but the government is not allowed to mandate that as law.

It is a law that you must recite the pledge of allegiance? I had no idea.

[Maxxie]

I honestly don't give a damn if it's in their or not - Not going to say it anyway, and it really don't hurt me in any way, so... :P

[Ben Michael]

Our forefathers founded our nation on biblical principles so I think we should

[Amnesiac]

Our forefathers founded our nation on biblical principles so I think we should

That is completely and utterly false.

[dontcare97]

I don't think the word god matters. It's what the pledge actually says that i find hypocritical and unfair. There isn't justice for all. I won't say it god or no god.

[Angel Androgynous]

It shouldn't be there because
the government is not aloud to endorse any religion on us.
In my school we were forced to say it. God and all. :/ That is the government endorsing religion. Though it is not the law that one MUST say the pledge of allegiance, it is still encouraged by the government. They say it before speeches, at schools, on TV...

[steve14]

i pledge elleigence to the flag of the united states of america, and to the republic for which i stand, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. AS IS

[Angel Androgynous]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under Canada, indivisible, with [-]liberty[/-], but not marriage for all.

[Maxxie]

That is completely and utterly false.

This statement is completely and utterly true. :D

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under Canada, indivisible, with [-]liberty[/-], but not marriage for all.

Oooh, snarkyness. I love it.

[andrew_]

if you reaserch it the nation was formed on christianity and i think it should stay that way

[Angel Androgynous]

If you researched, Christianity caused the Salem Witch trials. Hhmm I wonder why we have freedom of religion and seperation of church and state.

[Amnesiac]

i pledge elleigence to the flag of the united states of america, and to the republic for which i stand, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. AS IS

Hurr durr. Aren't you special.

if you reaserch it the nation was formed on christianity and i think it should stay that way

Okay, obviously this thread is going to be a clusterfuck of people who don't understand the secularist values the United States was founded on, nor the fact that nobody should ever shove their shitstain religions down the throats of others. The United States of America was clearly not founded on Christianity; this was confirmed only a few years after the signing of the Bill of Rights with the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli). Many founding fathers, especially Jefferson, were extremely wary of a potential mix of government and religion and fought for secular values both in the pre-U.S. colonies and the modern United States. Take, for example, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom), which introduced secular values to the British colony of Virginia and was later used as a template for the First Amendment.

Anybody who advocates having our government enforce a pledge of allegiance in schools, or mixing God and government, does not believe in freedom. Really. A free society lets individuals think FOR THEMSELVES, without the government endorsing particular views or forcing "patriotism," which is the enemy of freedom. The government doesn't exist to tell anybody what to say, or what to think, or what religion to honor. Fuck you if you think otherwise.

[Angel Androgynous]

Hurr durr. Aren't you special.



Okay, obviously this thread is going to be a clusterfuck of people who don't understand the secularist values the United States was founded on, nor the fact that nobody should ever shove their shitstain religions down the throats of others. The United States of America was clearly not founded on Christianity; this was confirmed only a few years after the signing of the Bill of Rights with the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli). Many founding fathers, especially Jefferson, were extremely wary of a potential mix of government and religion and fought for secular values both in the pre-U.S. colonies and the modern United States. Take, for example, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom), which introduced secular values to the British colony of Virginia and was later used as a template for the First Amendment.

Anybody who advocates having our government enforce a pledge of allegiance in schools, or mixing God and government, does not believe in freedom. Really. A free society lets individuals think FOR THEMSELVES, without the government endorsing particular views or forcing "patriotism," which is the enemy of freedom. The government doesn't exist to tell anybody what to say, or what to think, or what religion to honor. Fuck you if you think otherwise.


A round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. :D

[Maxxie]

Oh, and just wondering, what is the "Pledge of elegance"?

"I pledge elegance, to my fashion, of an amazing essence of quality work. And to my appearance, for which it stands, one style, under a coat (or scarf or various pieces of outerware), very trendable, with stylishness and vouge for all."

That was quite difficult, actually...

[huginnmuninn]

Oh, and just wondering, what is the "Pledge of elegance"?

"I pledge elegance, to my fashion, of an amazing essence of quality work. And to my appearance, for which it stands, one style, under a coat (or scarf or various pieces of outerware), very trendable, with stylishness and vouge for all."

That was quite difficult, actually...

the title implies that the word god is in it so
"I pledge elegance, to my fashion, of an amazing essence of quality work. And to my appearance, for which it stands, one style, under an oh my god amazing! coat (or scarf or various pieces of outerware), very trendable, with stylishness and vouge for all."

[Ben Michael]

That is completely and utterly false.

Then maybe you should read your history dude.

[Sogeking]

Then maybe you should read your history dude.

Did you just seriously ignore this post?

Okay, obviously this thread is going to be a clusterfuck of people who don't understand the secularist values the United States was founded on, nor the fact that nobody should ever shove their shitstain religions down the throats of others. The United States of America was clearly not founded on Christianity; this was confirmed only a few years after the signing of the Bill of Rights with the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli). Many founding fathers, especially Jefferson, were extremely wary of a potential mix of government and religion and fought for secular values both in the pre-U.S. colonies and the modern United States. Take, for example, the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom), which introduced secular values to the British colony of Virginia and was later used as a template for the First Amendment.

Anybody who advocates having our government enforce a pledge of allegiance in schools, or mixing God and government, does not believe in freedom. Really. A free society lets individuals think FOR THEMSELVES, without the government endorsing particular views or forcing "patriotism," which is the enemy of freedom. The government doesn't exist to tell anybody what to say, or what to think, or what religion to honor. Fuck you if you think otherwise.

[ShatteredWings]

Hey, guys, this is from may...