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View Poll Results: What is your religion?
Agnosticism 142 13.64%
Atheism 312 29.97%
Buddhism 12 1.15%
Christianity (Please Specify) 415 39.87%
Hinduism 9 0.86%
Islam 33 3.17%
Judaism 17 1.63%
Wicca 17 1.63%
Other (Please Specify) 84 8.07%
Voters: 1041. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 1st, 2006, 03:56 PM   #61
Phantom
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
I am just wondering why is Phantom still allowed to post on these forums? If he vulgarly attacks everyone who doesnt agree with hes views.

Yes Phantom that also means your a fanatic
Because I back up my arguments with facts.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself John Stuart Mill
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Old October 1st, 2006, 09:48 PM   #62
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Red face Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makod View Post
Haha... the irony.
Lawl, thats how you spell the word, tool. also good job at turning my words into nonsense

May the wind always be at your back
and the sun upon your face,
and the winds of destiny carry you aloft
to dance with the stars...
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Old October 2nd, 2006, 11:22 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by R_master View Post
i thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im dissapointed :/
You were saying that all of us can't word sentences correctly but when I look at your post I find many errors. If it weren't for you attacking us unprovoked I would have ignored it. You may have spelt dyslexic correctly but look at this,

"i (didn't capitalize the beginning of the sentence) thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im (needs an appostrophe and a capitalized I) dissapointed (misspelled disapointed) :/ (you didn't punctuate)"

Good job!
Quote:
Originally Posted by R_master View Post
Lawl, thats how you spell the word, tool. also good job at turning my words into nonsense
Yeah, I know, I'm such a tool, jeeze.

And so we ignore the beggar's cup
Praise your act in the Grand Finale
Teach the unborn the winners sign
a welcome grin to the world Royal

Last edited by Makod; October 2nd, 2006 at 11:26 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2006, 03:27 PM   #64
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makod View Post
You were saying that all of us can't word sentences correctly but when I look at your post I find many errors. If it weren't for you attacking us unprovoked I would have ignored it. You may have spelt dyslexic correctly but look at this,

"i (didn't capitalize the beginning of the sentence) thought this forum was called Ramblings of the Wise, not dyslexic bigot fest 06.

im (needs an appostrophe and a capitalized I) dissapointed (misspelled disapointed) :/ (you didn't punctuate)"

Good job!


Yeah, I know, I'm such a tool, jeeze.
Good job, educating this idiot.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself John Stuart Mill
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Old October 6th, 2006, 03:34 AM   #65
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Default Re: Religion

Hmmmmm, the guy that posted in here before me got banned and it seems to have quieted the thread, which is fine, because you all have a great deal of reading ahead. Unless you think my post isn't much, in which case, you don't have a great deal of reading ahead of you. But there is something to read.

Here we go, I'm Christian, flat-out. Now, I could open up on everyone with the standard "God is real, and without him there is nothing," speech, but, I'm a scientist, you see. And one of a different flavor. I'm going to explain to you my belief in ways that anyone can understand. And, being that my area of expertise is theoretical physics, and I'm willing to say there's few in here that could contest my knowledge in that area, I'll use science to appeal to anyone and everyone. That's right. God. And science.

Let's start off by looking at things from a logical point of view. All things aside, all things being equal, what happens if I die and there's no God? Well, it won't matter much to me or you, will it? Once again, all things aside, all things being equal, what if God is real, and you're wrong? Your end becomes much worse, and mine becomes much better. Let's make it mathematical, for even simpler terms, to get the TOTAL MOST LOGICAL CHOICE then, shall we?
Atheists are right:
Them=0
Me=0 (we're both dead, all is equal)
I'm right:
Me= + (any number greater than zero)
Them= - (any number less than zero)
(I say any number, because we only need to know if there's a positive or negative value to assess this situation)
So, if we take that "any number", for simplicity sake, to be 1, then, with both cases assessed:
Me=0+1=1
Them=0-1
So, you see, the math favors me, but this was an EXTREMELY SIMPLE argument, and probably wouldn't take much to argue away. I'll get to the more complex stuff in a minute, but basically, atheists have much more at stake than I do, as I never "lose" anything. We all either die, making us all equal, or the atheists are wrong, and they lose everything. Now, based on LOGIC, which would be a logical choice?

Now, although this sounds impossible, something can come from nothing. Even something such as our universe. For those that don't believe me, I'd be happy to explain, but not in here, as it would greatly inflate what will already be a large post. What seems odd, is the way it turned out. First the order of things, but, more much more interestingly, the presence of life at all. I'll take this time to use a quote from another physicist: "Take apart a car engine, down to every last piece. Put all these pieces in a box, shake well for, oh, say 3 million years. If you don't have a working car engine when you open the box, accept that its assembly requires deliberate interaction."
OK, that was kinda paraphrased, but you get the point. And for those who would argue that 3 million years isn't enough, it's a car engine, and nowhere near the complexity of living, organic substances, much less organisms as a whole, so it should take much less time to achieve completion. 3 million years should be more than ample for something on a macroscopic scale, such as a car engine. Yet, on probability alone, I can tell you it shouldn't all come together. Now consider the world we live in. The odds of this occuring from coincidence are unacceptably astronomical. They're there, of course, but their not at all pleasant to look at.

Now, time for a lesson, I need everyone to understand this next part so that they don't make the mistake of assuming I'm making things up. You all are about to learn the Copernician Theorem. Don't worry, it's easy, I promise. Really easy. It's also great at parties. It simply states that you assume you, or more exactly, your point of reference, is not unique. And I don't mean point of reference in the einsteinian sense. You'll see, keep reading. Now, under this assumption, you can say alot of things about what you observe. By assuming you're not viewing an event at a "special" period in time (near it beginning or end), you can actually tell how long something will last, within a margin of error. You can even define the margin of error, which is great. Let's say I want to know how long something will last, with 50% accuracy. I assume that my point of view is not unique, that I'm not seeing it in the first 25% of its existence, nor the last 25%. That means, it has anywhere between 75% (I'm going to use integer values, to keep it simple) and 26% of it's total lifetime to go. So, if something has been around 100 years, I can say with 50% accurracy that it will last more that 25 more years, but less than 400. See, because 25% is a quarter or 100%, you divide or multiply its life up to this point by 4. Now, 50% isn't very good accurracy, so let's do something more practical with it. 95% accurracy. That leaves 2.5% for the beginning and end, or rather, 1/40 on each side of it's total lifetime. So, we can find the likely length of time it will last by multiplying or dividing the lifetime up to this point. If the object has existed 100 years, then it will last more than 2.5 (100/40) years, but less than 4000 (100 X 40) years. I'm using 100 in both cases, because it's really simple and won't be as confusing, but it works for any number at all, I assure you. If you'd like to know how long anything will last, PM me. I can tell you, based on our assumption on the age of the human race (about 200,000 years for our species) that we it will likely exist for more than 5,000 more years, but less than 8,000,000. We won't be around forever, guys. Besides, this theorem aside, our race couldn't survive forever in this universe, anyway. It's not entirely stable. Trillions upon trillions of years from now, protons will decay. Matter no longer will exist. Not in a state beyond subatomic particles, anyway. But all of this isn't my point, back to assuming you're not a unique observer. Now that you know the theorm basics, we'll get into the nitty gritty. Oh, btw, this theorem has NEVER been shown to be wrong within the chosen realm of accuracy. NEVER. I can grab some proof if anyone wants it later, but I'm really getting away from the point.

Now, the actual theorem states that anything that makes you unique is unlikely. I know I'm alive, because I'm, well, me, but to assume that none of you all are a hallucination of my single conscience would make me unique, and that's not likely. There might be others out there hallucinating just like me to rebalance the effect, but this would mean you all are figments of my imagination, and would force a unique (the only) viewpoint on me. See, you might exist within a unique GROUP of observers, but you must be equal among them. If you were all halucinations, it would violate the rule. Don't take this to rule out God, though, as it can't be done. You see, this rule only applies to all things within this universe, which God transcends. One might argue that life could be a dream, and that should invalidate this theory, but your dreams are part of this universe, if only inside your head. God exists beyond this universe, and is not bound by its rules. Otherwise, the creation of the universe becomes unfeasible, much less the unique viewpoint problem. NOW, on to the whole point. Humans exist, but for us to be the only race on the only viable planet would make us unique, and that's not likely. So, other races must exist in theory, but they can't differ from us much in technology, otherwise that would make us (or them) unique, and that's not likely. Now, for us to be the only race that believes in a God would make us unique, and that's not likely. And for this last part, for everyone to have this belief seperately, across massive voids that cannot be transversed, and for it not to be correct, THAT would be unlikely. Cute, huh? You see, one could argue that there's a bandwagon effect of gods and religion going on here on earth, where popularity is a big deal, and ideas can move around, but we didn't broadcast the idea to all space. So, if an alien race shows up here some day speaking of a god, you'd better not offend them.

Of course, the above isn't without holes. I know where the imperfections are, but I'm not about to debunk my own post. You could of course ague differently, as always, and should, because if I were the only one to see the errors in my post, that would make me unique, and that's not likely. See, isn't that great? OK, let's move on, but in short, the universe agrees: God is real.

Now, theoretical physics is getting to a remarkable point. For the first time, physicist are suggesting that in the absence of observation, nothing has truly happened. The physicist saying this are some of the most intelligent people in the world. They say, quite correctly, that if observers were a required part of the universe for it to exist, the physics for such a thing don't exist yet, but that doesn't mean they go beyond us. We could easily just not have the physics to explain everything yet, but without the COMPLETE PICTURE, those atheists who cling to science as their mainstay must understand that we can't explain everything yet, and that it doesn't mean there isn't a supreme being, just that we don't have the science to explain it yet. You see, at any time, and all times, science is a superstition. We assume it to be true now, because it is the best thing we can use to explain the world around us. But it's really a belief, even a religion on it's own. I'm about to give you a hard question. We have PROVEN that in the absence of observation, in an unpolluted vacuum, something may exist in any number if states at the same time. It requires intervetion, either from pollution (something new moving into the unpolluted zone) or observation to collapse into a stable state. Ask me if you need more info on this to believe me, but I assure you I'm not making it up. So, at the beginning, in pure vacuum, in the absence of all things, when all creation is in a perfect uncollapsed state, does that not mean there had to have been an observer for the state to collapse? For the big bang to happen? For the existence of all things? This is not philosophy, this IS physics. We're trying to answer these questions now. Now, we might not be able to explain how things came into being, but either physics will one day have proof of a creator, or we still won't have a means to explain how it happened, or perhaps more importantly, why it happened.

I realize that I've probably started a few headaches, but seeing as how this is sloppily written, I need a few people to attempt to dissect my post so that I may dissect their and make sense of things. It's 3:25 AM, my time, so naturally, this post has become a little incoherent, but nothing I've said is untrue, nothing I've said has been PROVEN to be wrong. If I've done my job well (I won't know until I've had some sleep and read all this again), this will be a very nice post to start off my VT forum career. Like I said, you guys are either gone love me or hate me. Did I mention I'm great at parties?

Oh, and one last thing. Science cannot prove there is no God, but God certainly leaves room for all sorts of science. Science cannot rule God out, but God would rule science in. Once again, a case of -1 and +1. Think about it my friends. God IS real.

Quote:
Plato once said there was a perfect form of everything -- a perfect dog, a perfect chair, a perfect man -- and that everything was a shadow of this one perfect form. Now, if we follow this line of thinking, that means that somewhere in the universe there is the perfect form of the perfect, absolute and complete idiot, and he left here an hour ago.

-- Gideon, Babylon 5
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Old October 6th, 2006, 04:39 AM   #66
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Default Re: Religion

I think therefore I am.

Josh

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Old October 6th, 2006, 01:48 PM   #67
cmpcmp
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Default Re: Religion

I didn't read the whole big thing yet, but u do argue that being religious isn't bad as when you die you can't loose, but unfortunatley for what you think
-there are 1000's of religions out there
-Many (most?) of which require you to only belive in that religion

so since you can't definitivley prove that w/e is right, ur chances are down to under 1/1000. Plus whos to say that God in question didn't put religion out there as a test? and if u believe in its falsity's you don't go to heaven or where ever?

yours is a very slipery argumnet that tries to make logical sense out of something that requires faith, which almost by definition means that it doesn't make logical sense.

Plus religion doesn't abide by any rules, my religion can say that your religion means u got to hell, and yours can say that same thing about mine, can we both be right?
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Old October 6th, 2006, 02:58 PM   #68
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Default Re: Religion

There's really no knowing what's right or wrong in God's eyes, assuming He's there. That's kind of why there are religions in the first place.

Please Click Here... you know you want to.

Only hyms upon your lips...
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Old October 6th, 2006, 07:50 PM   #69
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Default Re: Religion

christianity and catholosism ar the same thing...im catholic...but I like Buddhism better...and any religion that emphasizes rebirth from actions, I believe in parts of the bible...but not all...I mostly like the Torah too...and the Rig Veda...Hiduism

I really like to chat with people... so let's talk...
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Old October 7th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #70
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I hold the steadfast belief that we are all praying and worshiping the same thing, but in different ways. We fight over how another person prays or thinks this God says we should act. I believe this God wants us to be tolerant, loving, forgiving, respecting, generous, and kind to all beings on this earth, from the smallest microbe to most greedy human. The small differences in opinion on how one should act are frivolus and futile, we are all the same, really. I beleive in more of a Taoist and Buddhist Philospohy of life, because it supports universal tolernace and acceptance, and I am also a Unitarian and Christian. Agnostism makes some people angry, and I dont understand why. I choose elements of different faiths because thats what i believe.

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you can bomb the world to pieces
but you cant bomb it into peace

life is to short to make just on decision. musics to loud for just one station. love is to big for just one nation, and God is to big for just one religion


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Old October 8th, 2006, 09:37 AM   #71
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Default Re: Religion

Adding on to Phillzy:

I believe that the God that everyone's praying to but disagreeing over the ways to do it and what to believe just wants us to follow a few basic rules, which are:

1. Love God
2. Love each other as Jesus taught
3. Be good to yourself

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Old October 8th, 2006, 02:05 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panic! View Post
Adding on to Phillzy:

I believe that the God that everyone's praying to but disagreeing over the ways to do it and what to believe just wants us to follow a few basic rules, which are:

1. Love God
2. Love each other as Jesus taught
3. Be good to yourself
hear hear! indeed, these are the elements of christianity i respect and believe.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/875...ar77282xr4.gif

you can bomb the world to pieces
but you cant bomb it into peace

life is to short to make just on decision. musics to loud for just one station. love is to big for just one nation, and God is to big for just one religion


Come visit my diary, War is Hell! http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/fo...play.php?f=104
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Old October 9th, 2006, 07:49 PM   #73
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpcmp View Post
I didn't read the whole big thing yet, but u do argue that being religious isn't bad as when you die you can't loose, but unfortunatley for what you think
-there are 1000's of religions out there
-Many (most?) of which require you to only belive in that religion

so since you can't definitivley prove that w/e is right, ur chances are down to under 1/1000. Plus whos to say that God in question didn't put religion out there as a test? and if u believe in its falsity's you don't go to heaven or where ever?

yours is a very slipery argumnet that tries to make logical sense out of something that requires faith, which almost by definition means that it doesn't make logical sense.

Plus religion doesn't abide by any rules, my religion can say that your religion means u got to hell, and yours can say that same thing about mine, can we both be right?
My argument is not as slippery as you say. First off, any religion that believes in reincarnation believes that we all will be reborn, and only endure a hellish purge if we were very bad according to the standards of the earth. I have abided by these standards, so that's one other religion where I cannot go to hell. The Jews do not believe I will go to hell, I have held their commandments dear, and I believe in their God. I have a wican friend, who has explained his religion to me somewhat, saying that only the absolute worst kind of people go to his version of hell, and those that don't believe in his religion just don't go to the highest form of heaven. Islam doesn't have a defined hell, only a heaven, and, to my knowledge, they never state that it's off-limits to anyone. Under most of these, you may go to heaven as well, but then, so may I. And if only for one other religion, my odds are still better than yours. Not to mention, I believe in the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ, and one almighty God. But even to put all that aside, logic is still on my side. And besides, even if only believing in one religion, and only one religion would get you into heaven, then my odds are still better than any person who does not believe in any religion. My argument stands. Oh, and please continue reading my post, as it seems you're the only one that is. And I am in this room for a debate, and to debunk any who would like to attempt defying the existence of God.

Quote:
Plato once said there was a perfect form of everything -- a perfect dog, a perfect chair, a perfect man -- and that everything was a shadow of this one perfect form. Now, if we follow this line of thinking, that means that somewhere in the universe there is the perfect form of the perfect, absolute and complete idiot, and he left here an hour ago.

-- Gideon, Babylon 5
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Old October 9th, 2006, 08:17 PM   #74
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
There's really no knowing what's right or wrong in God's eyes, assuming He's there. That's kind of why there are religions in the first place.
-U can belive you know, but you can't "know", what you say is true.

Quote:
my odds are still better than yours.
Whoes to say what each religion is in a statistical chart of sorts? its rediculious. Religion can't fully be reasoned, thats why theres faith. To try and cross religions so that you come up with a better statistical makes no sense.

Believing in a religion because of better better statistical heaven possiblilities isn't even "real" religious faith.

Its like saying that ur going to be a certian religion just becasue they don't belive in sin, and that's what you personly want. Ur reasoning has nothing to do with "faith" or a belief in God.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 01:48 AM   #75
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmpcmp View Post
-U can belive you know, but you can't "know", what you say is true.


Whoes to say what each religion is in a statistical chart of sorts? its rediculious. Religion can't fully be reasoned, thats why theres faith. To try and cross religions so that you come up with a better statistical makes no sense.

Believing in a religion because of better better statistical heaven possiblilities isn't even "real" religious faith.

Its like saying that ur going to be a certian religion just becasue they don't belive in sin, and that's what you personly want. Ur reasoning has nothing to do with "faith" or a belief in God.
I know it doesn't have anything to do with faith or a belief in God. If I brought that in here, you'd be attacking me for it, as well. I SAID I would be giving statistical and hard reasoning for the people that don't consider faith at all. I was attempting to appeal to everyone on a purely scientific basis, something that cannot be fought. Are you really going to attempt to attack religion, claiming that you only believe in facts, only to turn your back to logic when it disagrees with you? I have a disclaimer in my own post stating that I was putting my beliefs aside to give you a purely logical point of view, and you become angry when I don't use my faith to convince you? My reasoning has everything to do with a logical consideration. If there are 10,000 religions, and only one is right, would it not be better to choose one then forego all of them and guarantee damnation? Now, as for my beliefs, I have "real" faith, as you put it. If you, or anyone else would like to ask about redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ, send me a PM. I'd be happy to talk on a one-to-one basis. I do not believe in my God for statistics. I believe what I believe because it is TRUTH. However, empirical evidence cannot be denied, period, and if I have to fight on the home field of an Atheist, I will. They may be suprised by how well I play their field, too.

And once again, you did not denounce my argument, you only attempted to get around it in a flawed way (claiming logic doesn't apply when numbers are involved) and then tried to attack me by claiming I had no faith.

My argument stands.

p.s. Please look back to the original post, you haven't tried any of my other points yet. And attacking this post would be beating a dead horse.

Quote:
Plato once said there was a perfect form of everything -- a perfect dog, a perfect chair, a perfect man -- and that everything was a shadow of this one perfect form. Now, if we follow this line of thinking, that means that somewhere in the universe there is the perfect form of the perfect, absolute and complete idiot, and he left here an hour ago.

-- Gideon, Babylon 5
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Old October 10th, 2006, 06:11 PM   #76
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Are you really going to attempt to attack religion, claiming that you only believe in facts?
-I try to only belive in facts(truth), or inferences from thoes facts, and possibly things that are likely.
-I think that religion isn't based souly on facts, thats where faith comes in.

Quote:
I know it doesn't have anything to do with faith or a belief in God. If I brought that in here, you'd be attacking me for it,
-U did bring it in, as your end result is the belif in a god/religion.
-I try not to attack ppl, and if i did or it seemed like i did i appologize, (I hate flaming)

Quote:
I was attempting to appeal to everyone on a purely scientific basis
This is possible in religion, up to a point, and once faith is required that point has definitely been crossed, and thats ur end result correct?

Quote:
only to turn your back to logic when it disagrees with you?
In an argument about something that isn't completely logical, there will be iligical or statments that lack logical support.

-Where did I turn my back on logic?
-It is a very strange thing to try and argue something (religion/God belif) that can't be fully logical or reasoned, and say that the other person didn't use reason at one point.

Quote:
and you become angry
-I didn't get angry, At least i don't think so, and if i do get angry I generaly don't start petty insults or flames.

Quote:
If there are 10,000 religions, and only one is right, would it not be better to choose one then forego all of them and guarantee damnation?
-This argument is based on prior assumptions that can't (or haven't) been proven.
-no one knows if only one is right, or if none are right, or if it even matters to God, or even if god exists for that matter. There are way too many IFS in the argument to apeal to any one in reality. theoreticly any arbitrary thing could send you to hell (if there if a hell).
---------------------------------
IMPO, assuming that.. (not fully logical as it deals w/ the unknown)
-there was a god,
-there was a hell,
-ppl could go to hell,
-and that it was because of things that we did on earth,
----then what would send u to the heaven (or similar) would be good deeds.
----YOU DON'T NEED to be religious to do good deeds.
If god expected ppl to pick a religion in hopes to go to heaven, then what would happent to all of the ppl that truthfully loved mankind and god (if there was a god) and did all that they could, but they simply lost and went to hell (or similar) becuase of the random "crap shoot"? This doesn't make sense if God created a heaven for us to go to IMO.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 08:45 PM   #77
Rogue 4
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Default Re: Religion

Sorry, I went back and read my post, and it's more of an attack on you. You weren't attacking me, but I was up very late, and had been reading another thread on another forum putting up with 5000 flames, so I read your post anticipating hostility.

Anyway, I'm going to end this by saying a variable (X) is an unknown real number, or even if it cannot be defined, there is a universal truth in saying that this variable is still greater if added to ( (X+1 > X+0) ). It doesn't matter if the variable is an immeasureable number, or even if it infinitely high or low (in which case, it cannot be reduced, anyway, so it's still read as infinity plus one). The number could even be imaginary, but so long as it has a positive value added, it will still become greater than the original value. If we are judged according to works, then most of us might go to heaven. If we are judged by faith, only those of us that have it go to heaven. I have one (1) more instance where I go to heaven. It is a positive, real, measureable number, and is likely a possibility as any other, so it must be equally considered. Therefore, what ever my initial chance is of going to heaven, you can add one more instance to it where I do (X+1). What the original value is, or even my choice of faith, has no bearing on the odds. They are innately better than those of an atheist. Even if God weren't there, it's better to consider the possibility rather than to blatantly disregard it. It's possible for an organ inside you to quantum tunnel out of you, to a place three feet in front of you, or even for your whole body to quantum tunnel to Mars, did you know? The odds are so low that it would take longer than the life of the universe for it to occur, but no less, it's still worth knowing. You need not worry, I don't think, but if you should suddenly find yourself on a barren, rust-colored wasteland with near-no breathable atmosphere after reading this post, remember that you were warned. It can happen. Don't ignore it. Just because it defies a person's common sense doesn't mean it ceases to exist because of their ignorance.

Would you like to pick up any more points to debate from my ORIGINAL post in here? This one's being overused. My math isn't lying to you, what you see is how it is, REGARDLESS of situation. X + 1 will always be greater than just X. X is just the base number of possibilities one has in life, whether they go to heaven, whether they die and nothing happens, whether they are reincarnated. Consider it that I just have one more possibility. And that possibility is going to a higher plane, a heaven. My odds are immediately better than those that would shrug off religion altogether. This is not a jab at what religions are right, I can argue that later, but the fact is, the odds are better for anyone that believes something rather than someone who believes nothing. And reread my little physics and math lessons above if you must. Do not try to debunk just the last paragraph (sorry, people on other forums are dimwits who do this all the time), the reasoning is clearly stated throughout the post. Take it all together and in context, or none at all.

Quote:
Plato once said there was a perfect form of everything -- a perfect dog, a perfect chair, a perfect man -- and that everything was a shadow of this one perfect form. Now, if we follow this line of thinking, that means that somewhere in the universe there is the perfect form of the perfect, absolute and complete idiot, and he left here an hour ago.

-- Gideon, Babylon 5

Last edited by Rogue 4; October 10th, 2006 at 08:49 PM.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 10:22 PM   #78
cmpcmp
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Default Re: Religion

Not necesarily.
-whos to say that x exists?
-whos to say that the "1" exists?

-what if religion is a test, and if u join you fail?
-what if joining a religion iscolates you from more religions than if u were agnostic (lowering you odds)?
-The "1" could be negative in the above case. and "x-1" is always lower than "x"

The point is, neither u or i can prove the variable (or the constant in ur equation) so any equation made with it is basicly rabdom. If i were to rewrite it it would look like....

"x"+"y" must be greater than z to get into heavan
{x,y,and possibly z can all be negative numbers} (adding negatives is subtraction)
{x and or y, y and or z, and x and or z, and x, y and z, may not actualy exist}

not so clear cut hugh?
the end point is....
-u can't prove that theorieticly, what ur saying adds and doesn't subtract, or any of the other stuff. they are ALL unknowns

is x+y greater than x-y? no way of knowing, as it can't be proven. what y is. It could be 1 or -1 or 0 or any number.

That is where ur logic is flawed.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 01:16 AM   #79
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
First off, Religion is based on FAITH. Therefore, math and science shouldn't be used to explain the center of a faith, that's what FAITH is all about. You don't need wordly proof to have faith.

Are you all insinuating that faith is backed by science?
Thats what im trying to tell him, but he came back with #'s, so i used #'s in the scenerio more realisticly, which it that it is based on FAITH.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 02:21 AM   #80
Rogue 4
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Default Re: Religion

Does anyone listen? I already said I was going to attempt the impossible and use numbers. I said I wasn't going to just use faith. And why do people feel the need to keep parts of their lives completely seperate from one another? No witty retorts, please, honestly, why are you all afraid of the numbers. Why CAN'T they be used? Oh, and you'll see I'm arguing against atheism in my posts. If you wish to be agnostic, I can deal with you later (Need a smile here with a tongue out, but the emote with it doesn't look good enough for me. I'll bug my brother). So, based on this argument, we can leave being agnostic out of your post. And any religion that accpets atheists, as far as I'm aware (and I'm aware of quite a bit), would accpet ANY other religion equally. So, no matter what, based on what I just said, my chance is higher. You don't even have to have that equal to one, but I chose to avoid as many headaches as possible. If you want to, we can argue the math. Would you like limits, imaginary numbers not equal to zero, some abstract constant like 753? Without that agnostic argument, which is NOT atheism, which is what I'm aguing against, my odds > their odds. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THIS IS A DETERMINED VALUE. I'm not sure how old you are, and it's not my place to pass judgement, as you could be more intelligent than me, but for the record, I'm taking college level calculus right now, and aside from that, I know my basic algebra from middleschool, and I took plane/solid geometry, trig, and calculus in highschool. Not to mention I read PHYSICS (theoretical and space/time) books as a past time. And yes, this is intend to intimidate you. I'm getting tired of this circular logic, or assumption that if value cannot be applied in an integer number, then it can't be explained with math. You do not want to ague math against me. And "it's religion" is no longer an excuse. YOU TELL ME WHY MATH CANNOT APPLY, NOT SIMPLY THAT IT DOESN'T. Read the whole post over, and keep in mind I already debunked your last one about your negative number theory. To say the very least, you won't be able to prove me wrong, so it's in your best interest to pick something else. And yes, I am trying to move you along, but that's because this is getting rather old, and you won't attempt to debate me on any other grounds. Be bold, step out of the box. My original post challenged you in more than one way, isn't it time you tried the same for me?

Quote:
Plato once said there was a perfect form of everything -- a perfect dog, a perfect chair, a perfect man -- and that everything was a shadow of this one perfect form. Now, if we follow this line of thinking, that means that somewhere in the universe there is the perfect form of the perfect, absolute and complete idiot, and he left here an hour ago.

-- Gideon, Babylon 5
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