Virtual Teen Forums
 

Go Back   Virtual Teen Forums > >
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Chat Room

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Yesterday, 08:44 PM   #1
HighStandards
New Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2017
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default What Makes Abortion Murder?

For everyone that says abortion is murder, what makes you think this? Abortion is legal, so it doesn't fit the definition of murder which is the unlawful premeditated killing of a person, so unless there's some other definition of murder that is simply killing then this is where my confusion stems. It most definitely is killing, but not murder. I know that it's sad and unfair, but murder is not the right term.
HighStandards is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:58 PM   #2
Ethan19
Junior Member
 
Name: Ethan
Join Date: January 31, 2018
Location: England
Gender: Male
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

The argument is directly in the condition you stated. Abortion is premeditated and it is killing a person (just to note, this is not my belief!)
The people that argue this case believe when the child is conceived it is then a person. Further, abortion is legal, up to a certain stage of pregnancy. You will never see an abortion at 30 weeks unless there are extreme circumstances.

Last edited by Ethan19; Yesterday at 09:42 PM.
Ethan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:28 PM   #3
Uniquemind
VT Lover
 
Join Date: April 1, 2015
Location: USA
Gender: Other
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Epistemically to me:

It’s the stage of development of when a forceful separation of soul and biological life is ended.


Another difference is murder is the taking of life of something, that it’s mother or parents had given consent to exist in the world, and that consent was violated.

Aborted babies, did not have consent from their mothers to exist through them.
Uniquemind is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM   #4
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
Epistemically to me:

Itís the stage of development of when a forceful separation of soul and biological life is ended.


Another difference is murder is the taking of life of something, that itís mother or parents had given consent to exist in the world, and that consent was violated.

Aborted babies, did not have consent from their mothers to exist through them.
you realize how sick that last bit sounds right?

"SLAGIATT."
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM   #5
Uniquemind
VT Lover
 
Join Date: April 1, 2015
Location: USA
Gender: Other
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
you realize how sick that last bit sounds right?
It’s epistemic, it’s a method of analysis and thinking that deals with the root of justification, it is unconcerned with offense.

If the OP had phrased the question differently I would have taken emotional guilt into account. But wise people know the reason these debates go nowhere is because there isn’t an answer when the real question is about subjective emotional opinion.

Since the real answer lies in cold logic it was the only appropriate response.




I can further add that this is what separates miscarriages from abortions as well.
Likes: (1)
Uniquemind is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:01 PM   #6
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
It’s epistemic, it’s a method of analysis and thinking that deals with the root of justification, it is unconcerned with offense.

If the OP had phrased the question differently I would have taken emotional guilt into account. But wise people know the reason these debates go nowhere is because there isn’t an answer when the real question is about subjective emotional opinion.

Since the real answer lies in cold logic it was the only appropriate response.
its a moral argument not an emotional one, if you see abortion as killing or preventing life from ever being, yet do it any way, thats wrong, no cold logic about it,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan19 View Post
The argument is directly in the condition you stated. Abortion is premeditated and it is killing a person (just to note, this is not my belief!)
The people that argue this case believe when the child is conceived it is then a person. Further, abortion is legal, up to a certain stage of pregnancy. You will never see an abortion at 30 weeks unless there are extreme circumstances.
as iv'e said below, by stoping something that could have been a life you are stopping that life in the future from ever materializing, hence killing it.

Double posts merged. Please edit your first post next time. ~Jinglebottom

"SLAGIATT."

Last edited by Jinglebottom; Today at 06:45 AM.
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:08 PM   #7
PlasmaHam
Awesome Poster
 
PlasmaHam's Forum Picture
 
Join Date: July 7, 2016
Location: The South
Gender: Male
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStandards View Post
For everyone that says abortion is murder, what makes you think this? Abortion is legal, so it doesn't fit the definition of murder which is the unlawful premeditated killing of a person, so unless there's some other definition of murder that is simply killing then this is where my confusion stems. It most definitely is killing, but not murder. I know that it's sad and unfair, but murder is not the right term.
Well, are you look at murder from a legal point of view, or from a moral point of view? Legally, yes, abortion is not murder. Morally though, that is where the real argument is. I believe that morally, abortion equates to murder, as it is the ending of a life without consent or just reason.

It's a bad practice to base definitions and morality of things upon whether they are legal or not. Getting drunk and yelling profanity at people isn't moral, but as long as you don't get violent then it is perfectly legal. There are many other examples of that, you gotta keep an open mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
Aborted babies, did not have consent from their mothers to exist through them.
So, that therefore justifies the mother ending the baby's life, without it's consent? Sorry, but I don't understand your logic here. It just seems like you are saying that because someone else violated you, you then have the right to violate an innocent person just because they happened to be someway entwined with your personal violation. One wrong does not justify another wrong, two wrongs don't make a right, but that seems to be the basis of your argument. One person wronged me, so I am justified in wronging another.
Likes: (2)
PlasmaHam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:08 PM   #8
Uniquemind
VT Lover
 
Join Date: April 1, 2015
Location: USA
Gender: Other
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
its a moral argument not an emotional one, if you see abortion as killing or preventing life from ever being, yet do it any way, thats wrong, no cold logic about it,
Morals are not universal and they change with relativity to time and culture and available knowledge.


If the goal is to decrease abortions, the political right better have a better answer than ďjust donít have sexĒ, oh and btw we know what happens when society doesnít have sex...you end up with other societal problems like Japan...low birthweight.
Uniquemind is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:16 PM   #9
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
Morals are not universal and they change with relativity to time and culture and available knowledge.
The fact that killing is wrong, universally has almost always been seen as wrong. and for that reason always will.


Quote:
If the goal is to decrease abortions, the political right better have a better answer than ďjust donít have sexĒ, oh and btw we know what happens when society doesnít have sex...you end up with other societal problems like Japan...low birthweight.
1. Stay on topic, 2. the goal is actually to get the population up, i thought you where paying attention to my argument

"SLAGIATT."
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:24 PM   #10
Uniquemind
VT Lover
 
Join Date: April 1, 2015
Location: USA
Gender: Other
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Well, are you look at murder from a legal point of view, or from a moral point of view? Legally, yes, abortion is not murder. Morally though, that is where the real argument is. I believe that morally, abortion equates to murder, as it is the ending of a life without consent or just reason.

It's a bad practice to base definitions and morality of things upon whether they are legal or not. Getting drunk and yelling profanity at people isn't moral, but as long as you don't get violent then it is perfectly legal. There are many other examples of that, you gotta keep an open mind.



So, that therefore justifies the mother ending the baby's life, without it's consent? Sorry, but I don't understand your logic here. It just seems like you are saying that because someone else violated you, you then have the right to violate an innocent person just because they happened to be someway entwined with your personal violation. One wrong does not justify another wrong, two wrongs don't make a right, but that seems to be the basis of your argument. One person wronged me, so I am justified in wronging another.
The debate is absolutely in the realm of morals.

The problem is in reality however is making a law founded on a moral situation when it is under a laboratory box.

If the world were perfect, yes absolutely abortion should be outlawed. But when you take into account other variables and the pragmatic reality of enforcing a law in a world banning abortions you create other equally moral dilemmas that are just as morally grey...and pregnancy is time sensitive.

Men will never know the issues females have to medically deal with in relation to their anatomy. Pregnancies can go wrong, legally abortion needs to be an option to a woman.

But the law should not be always in-line with what is moral...thatís life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
The fact that killing is wrong, universally has almost always been seen as wrong. and for that reason always will.


1. Stay on topic, 2. the goal is actually to get the population up, i thought you where paying attention to my argument
At first glance yes killing is wrong. But look at how many times nature has obeyed that, in fact crack open your textbook and look to find a single society that has white and black obeyed that creed...exceptions exist everywhere the concept of this issue even in moralityís context is neutralized at best.




double posts merged ~ Val

Last edited by xXl0sth0peXx; Today at 12:18 AM.
Uniquemind is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:29 PM   #11
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
At first glance yes killing is wrong. But look at how many times nature has obeyed that, in fact crack open your textbook and look to find a single society that has white and black obeyed that creed...exceptions exist everywhere the concept of this issue even in moralityís context is neutralized at best.
*sigh* killing defenseless human+wrong. period,what part of that is so hard for you to get?

"SLAGIATT."
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:01 PM   #12
Dalcourt
VT Lover
 
Dalcourt's Forum Picture
 
Name: Peanut
Join Date: February 25, 2014
Location: Crescent City
Gender: Neutral
Blog Entries: 4
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
*sigh* killing defenseless human+wrong. period,what part of that is so hard for you to get?
In the post you quoted @Uniquemind it is said killing is wrong at first glance.

But I guess the original question wasn't whether killing is wrong but whether abortion is murder not just killing.

So what's the difference between killing and murder for you and why would you say abortion is murder and not just ceasing the life of an embryo?
This us our question at hand.

For me abortion clearly isn't more than that - ceasing the life of an embryo.
I would be never think of it as murder as much as I would never think of someone being a murderer when he/ she kills in self defense or as a soldier.

However this does not say anything about my moral views...morally I feel ending another beings life is wrong but this then also comprises people who just tried to defend themselves and soldiers in my book of morals then.

So you have the objective view of law on the one side and the subjective view of your own morals/ethics or of the morals/ethical of the society that formed you.

On the objective side therefore this problem is non existing. It is not murder according to law so it isn't murder at all.
On the subjective side there will be millions of individual answers but not an universally true one since this all depends on emotions, personal feelings and morals that may all widely differ.
Likes: (2)
Dalcourt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:07 PM   #13
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalcourt View Post
In the post you quoted @Uniquemind it is said killing is wrong at first glance.
thay also said this in a earlyer post : "Morals are not universal and they change with relativity to time and culture and available knowledge." but i digress

"SLAGIATT."
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:15 PM   #14
Uniquemind
VT Lover
 
Join Date: April 1, 2015
Location: USA
Gender: Other
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Morally for me it comes down to the specific motivations of why a girl seeks an abortion, and because the labyrinthine nature of each contextual situation and the politicization around this issue from religious groups who interfere with the medical decisions of a woman and her doctor.


I have no choice but to support itís legalization given the collective nature of this issue in reality on a societal level. As seen in Ireland where abortion was banned, sometimes a woman has to medically get one because it poses a life threatening condition, maybe the embryo didnít implant in the uterus properly, or it was a rape, or if giving birth irreparably harms the woman or puts her in danger of her family sending her abroad to be ďhonor killedĒ for shaming the family....

It becomes a larger issue when you think dynamically and not in a laboratory box on this issue.


Donít think for second that political organizations wonít play the legalization stall game in court, fully aware that as time passes in a trial justifying legal abortion they run out the clock to force that woman to give birth.

Think larger. This is why legalization becomes a necessary evil and why it is inherently different from murder.

This answers the OPís real question.

I conclude.
Uniquemind is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:12 AM   #15
mattsmith48
VT Lover
 
Name: matt
Join Date: March 8, 2014
Location: canada
Age: 20
Gender: Male
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Funny how many people who are against abortion because its murdering defenceless children, are often the same that are against gun control that could stop the murdering defenceless children. Just wanted to point that out.

To answer the question the some anti-abortion and pro-life people (Yes there is a difference) say abortion is murder because of what they consider a human life, for most of them it is at conception.

For me personally I think as long as it cannot survive outside of the womb it is part of the mother's body and I am a strong believer that any person is free to do anything the want with their body.

If abortion was to be outlaw, women would still find ways to get an abortion illegally except in most cases for people who thinks abortion is murder it would lead to two deaths instead of one as illegal abortion can be very dangerous and unsafe often leading to complications ending with the death of the mother. If you want to reduce the number of abortions the right way to go is through education and accessible contraception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
as iv'e said below, by stoping something that could have been a life you are stopping that life in the future from ever materializing, hence killing it.
By that logic masturbating and using contraception is also murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
The fact that killing is wrong, universally has almost always been seen as wrong. and for that reason always will.
Killing is wrong is universal, but the killing of who or what being wrong is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
1. Stay on topic, 2. the goal is actually to get the population up, i thought you where paying attention to my argument
Population is already too high it needs to be decreased, abortion is not the solution to overpopulation, but a last resort option to prevent unwanted births.

Straight Canadian boy
feel free to pm me will talk about anything
mattsmith48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 06:48 AM   #16
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Funny how many people who are against abortion because its murdering defenceless children, are often the same that are against gun control that could stop the murdering defenceless children. Just wanted to point that out.

Don't you dare, there is no comparison, people kill people not guns.

Quote:
By that logic masturbating and using contraception is also murder.
except sperm has an expiration date so it dies anyway.

Quote:
Killing is wrong is universal, but the killing of who or what being wrong is not.
killing a defenseless human is wrong. period.

Quote:
Population is already too high it needs to be decreased, abortion is not the solution to overpopulation, but a last resort option to prevent unwanted births.
actually we need to colonize the moon

"SLAGIATT."

Last edited by Jinglebottom; Today at 10:41 AM.
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 08:46 AM   #17
Timd9
Member
 
Timd9's Forum Picture
 
Name: Timothy
Join Date: December 6, 2017
Location: Neverland
Gender: Male
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Well, are you look at murder from a legal point of view, or from a moral point of view? Legally, yes, abortion is not murder. Morally though, that is where the real argument is. I believe that morally, abortion equates to murder, as it is the ending of a life without consent or just reason.
Dang straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Funny how many people who are against abortion because its murdering defenceless children, are often the same that are against gun control that could stop the murdering defenceless children. Just wanted to point that out.
Boi, I don't think abortion should be totally legal, but I also think there should be gun control...

Quote:
Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
Don't you F****** dare, there is no comparison, people kill people not guns.
Boi...


^Timd9^

Last edited by Timd9; Today at 08:54 AM.
Timd9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 08:58 AM   #18
swedeam
Member
 
swedeam's Forum Picture
 
Name: elijah
Join Date: February 4, 2018
Location: bracknell, england
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 6
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timd9 View Post



Boi...
yyeeessssss?

"SLAGIATT."
swedeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:23 AM   #19
lliam
Awesome Poster
 
lliam's Forum Picture
 
Name: Liam
Join Date: July 29, 2015
Location: The road opposite the big lake on the island in front of the big city on the mainland.
Age: 17
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 7
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighStandards View Post
It most definitely is killing, but not murder. I know that it's sad and unfair, but murder is not the right term.

The term "abortion" is usually used instead.

The opponents of abortion use "murder" for moral reasons, because in their view it interrupts a process that leads from a developing conglomerate of networked cells, to a human individual.

And since this is mostly based on religion, "Murder" is the only real label for "abortion" in their opinion.

But it's not about fair or unfair too. We just have to take it as a purely technical process.

Opponents of abortion hardly can follow this pov. They often are too emotionally involved. As said, mostly for religious reasons.





"Life is that prison you'll never leave alive."



lliam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:30 AM   #20
Ethan19
Junior Member
 
Name: Ethan
Join Date: January 31, 2018
Location: England
Gender: Male
Default Re: What Makes Abortion Murder?

So this is the part where everyone realises the debate is stupid and stops, right? Both sides are ignorant towards the others point of view, so the argument goes in circles. Anyone that believes abortion is wrong will argue against anything that doesn't line up for them no matter what, and vice versa. It's an emotional and moral debate, otherwise neither party would have been messaging the way they are.

Also, when constructing an argument the use of melancholy adjectives is stupid. It shows you've let your emotion run over. Which is fine, as long as you admit that and understand it devalues a lot of your argument.

Last edited by Ethan19; Today at 09:36 AM.
Ethan19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright©2000 - 2018
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2004 - 2017, VirtualTeen.org