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Old December 29th, 2017, 08:12 PM   #1
Sword of the morning
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Default Health care

I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but my recent involvement through my family has made me realize how messed the American heal care system is. My question for debate is should health care be a government managed or should we keep it in the private sectors.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 11:45 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Sword of the morning View Post
I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but my recent involvement through my family has made me realize how messed the American heal care system is. My question for debate is should health care be a government managed or should we keep it in the private sectors.
When has government ever managed anything well or cost effectively?
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Old December 30th, 2017, 12:32 AM   #3
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Default Re: Health care

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When has government ever managed anything well or cost effectively?
Would you like historical or contemporary examples? Nah but seriously my dad says there needs to be reform, we ourselves have never had a problem with it.

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Old December 30th, 2017, 01:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: Health care

Democrats and Republicans both been elected time and time again. The reason is probably because there is no right answer to that question. It's two different ways of solving the same problem. Personally, at a left wing progressive I would support government funding because then there is someone to oversee what is happening.

I know someone from the USA that supported the Conservative, business can fix it approach. Every time his policy came due for renewal, he would select what he wanted coverage for and he paid less than the amount of his taxes goes towards it now living in Canada. That being said, if he had been diagnosed with a rare deadly disease that his personally selected policy did not cover I guess his family would have ended up on the street so that they could pay for it. Some could say that that would be his fault, but I have more compassion than that.

Living in Canada, I'm sure that I will over pay for my health care in my life time but I go to bed at night knowing that I could get diagnosed with anything tomorrow, treatment would happen.


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Old December 30th, 2017, 06:19 AM   #5
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I live in the UK where we have had universal healthcare via the NHS since 1949. It's certainly not a perfect system and naturally comes under stress when not enough of the workforce pays in compared to how much must be spent on each patient but I can tell you now that no one would ask for any other system. We look over at the US and see stories of people going bankrupt and living on the streets just to afford the necessary health coverage and it's honestly crazy to most of us. Like I said, certainly not a perfect system by any means and of course it's very much open for exploitation but I can say we'd rather have a system where everyone is supported regardless of their case than a system where no one is.
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Old December 30th, 2017, 08:04 AM   #6
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It is the government's job to protect and take care of its population, that includes make sure everyone without exception has what they need to survive, that means being able to meet their basic needs like food, clean water, or a place to live and that includes health care. Call it liberal, socialists, leftist or crazy, I call it caring about other people. People shouldn't die because they can't afford food or water, nor because they can't afford to go to the doctor or get a treatment.

Seen from the outside, America's health care debate is pathetic and worthless, and much like your gun control debate as become a parody of it self.

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Old December 30th, 2017, 06:07 PM   #7
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Yes, it should be managed by the government, because by definition, the whole point of a healthcare system is to provide a service to everybody, and not to generate profits. A private-based system necessarily means that those who can't afford it won't get any protection.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:55 AM   #8
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Serbia has an universal health system, I would trade it for a private one every day. It's is cheaper and far more efficient. Every time I went to a private clinic, I was in and out in 15 minutes. Once, I waited for 4 hours to get help at a government clinic. I had a fever, 40,5 C and I waited for hours. Ironically I came out of the clinic worse than when I came in.

I bet that with the private insurances here you can get full coverage for 50% of the cost of government funded healthcare.

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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Serbia has an universal health system, I would trade it for a private one every day. It's is cheaper and far more efficient. Every time I went to a private clinic, I was in and out in 15 minutes. Once, I waited for 4 hours to get help at a government clinic. I had a fever, 40,5 C and I waited for hours. Ironically I came out of the clinic worse than when I came in.

I bet that with the private insurances here you can get full coverage for 50% of the cost of government funded healthcare.
I think a major issue in this discussion is that the pro-side and the con-side are discussing different things entirely. The fact is that, to effectively discuss it we must take both sides into account. A private-based system indeed provides better waiting times, more efficient time-usage, more money per person as well as more attention to each patient. However, it's a system where the less you need from it, the better it is for you. The average person can support private healthcare for themselves if they have a cold or maybe a broken bone or two. However, it's pretty impossible to ask an average worker to be able to fully cover the cost of say cancer treatments or treatments for more advanced ailments. That's where universal healthcare tends to be stronger, where all money is pooled together so that those who, yes, are paying more than they take out can then help cover those who could never in a million years cover the level of treatment they need. There is no WRONG system per se, just different ways of looking at it. If you are a person who wants to receive the best treatment and waiting times possible for your money then of course private healthcare is for you. If you have a little more patience for long waiting times or naturally need a higher level of healthcare then universal healthcare is probably better.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 09:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
I think a major issue in this discussion is that the pro-side and the con-side are discussing different things entirely. The fact is that, to effectively discuss it we must take both sides into account. A private-based system indeed provides better waiting times, more efficient time-usage, more money per person as well as more attention to each patient. However, it's a system where the less you need from it, the better it is for you. The average person can support private healthcare for themselves if they have a cold or maybe a broken bone or two. However, it's pretty impossible to ask an average worker to be able to fully cover the cost of say cancer treatments or treatments for more advanced ailments. That's where universal healthcare tends to be stronger, where all money is pooled together so that those who, yes, are paying more than they take out can then help cover those who could never in a million years cover the level of treatment they need. There is no WRONG system per se, just different ways of looking at it. If you are a person who wants to receive the best treatment and waiting times possible for your money then of course private healthcare is for you. If you have a little more patience for long waiting times or naturally need a higher level of healthcare then universal healthcare is probably better.
Serbia has a broken and corrupt system, you can literally afford full coverage from a cold to AIDS, cancer and other serious ailments for half the price which you pay to the government's half-assed system with an average wage. I support being able to choose, because let's face it, the poor are the unhealthiest and cannot afford any care sometimes, I just think it would be fairer that you can choose if you are going to participate in the government's health system and pay some money into it or withdraw from it. If my parents werent paying away 20% of their wages to mandatory government healthcare, we would go full private.

Also the private health sector is far more subjected to scrutinies and lawsuits than the governmental healthcare. Unless a surgeon or doctor outright murders you on the operating table or something, they will face no scrutinies. If I had to put my life in a doctor's hands, I would rather put it in the hands of a doctor who aside from pay and other things has to worry about a possible lawsuit.

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Old January 1st, 2018, 07:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Health care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Serbia has an universal health system, I would trade it for a private one every day. It's is cheaper and far more efficient. Every time I went to a private clinic, I was in and out in 15 minutes. Once, I waited for 4 hours to get help at a government clinic. I had a fever, 40,5 C and I waited for hours. Ironically I came out of the clinic worse than when I came in.

I bet that with the private insurances here you can get full coverage for 50% of the cost of government funded healthcare.
Every public health care system in the world as the effect of crowding the ER and clinics, but that's good thing, it means people use the service at anytime because they can afford it. As for the private system not everyone can afford it, so they either wait to long before seeing a doctor or never see anyone, either way they will most likely die with the only difference being one of the option will bankrupt their family after their death.

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Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Serbia has a broken and corrupt system, you can literally afford full coverage from a cold to AIDS, cancer and other serious ailments for half the price which you pay to the government's half-assed system with an average wage. I support being able to choose, because let's face it, the poor are the unhealthiest and cannot afford any care sometimes, I just think it would be fairer that you can choose if you are going to participate in the government's health system and pay some money into it or withdraw from it. If my parents werent paying away 20% of their wages to mandatory government healthcare, we would go full private.
You can't chose that if you didn't had a public healthcare system that money would still be taxed and used for something else probably something useless and stupid. Plus if you could some how choose to pay for it or not, most rich assholes would decide to not pay for it and than who would pay for it? Either poor people who can't afford it or with tax money so you would end up paying for it anyway.

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Also the private health sector is far more subjected to scrutinies and lawsuits than the governmental healthcare. Unless a surgeon or doctor outright murders you on the operating table or something, they will face no scrutinies. If I had to put my life in a doctor's hands, I would rather put it in the hands of a doctor who aside from pay and other things has to worry about a possible lawsuit.
The problem with suing a doctor or an hospital, is like suing a cop or the police department, if you win the money comes from tax payers not the person at fault. That could easily be changed without having to change the whole system.

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Old January 1st, 2018, 07:49 PM   #12
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Health care in Denmark is managed by government and is free as long as you pay your taxes, super satisfied.
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Old January 6th, 2018, 06:45 PM   #13
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Who was it that said if government is the answer it was a stupid question

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Old January 9th, 2018, 07:55 PM   #14
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When has government ever managed anything well or cost effectively?
Libraries, Fire Dept., and some college systems.

My local town government is pretty functional too.

The most dysfunctional government systems are those in Red mid-western states, because they don't adequately fund programs, so they then can argue government is broken. So you must admit there's a paradoxical effect at play here, albeit not the only factor. But don't get sucked into platform argument of "gov. Always sucks just cuz that's what the party believes".

Justify it on a case by case basis. Every region has different local needs and populaces to manage and that affects staffing needs within gov.

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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:23 PM   #15
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Libraries, Fire Dept., and some college systems.
The "government" as per most conservatives, especially on the topic of healthcare, typically refers the Federal government. You have listed all things controlled by state and local governments. Let's talk about things controlled by the federal government. The Post Office? Going broke. The nationally run school system? failing. The military? Wasting money on long-ball projects. You have yet to convince me that there is any reason I should trust the Feds when it comes to healthcare.

Quote:
The most dysfunctional government systems are those in Red mid-western states, because they don't adequately fund programs, so they then can argue government is broken. So you must admit there's a paradoxical effect at play here, albeit not the only factor. But don't get sucked into platform argument of "gov. Always sucks just cuz that's what the party believes".
Would you mind sourcing your claims that all the dysfunctional state governments are red? Everything I read indicates an even split among red/blue states, with liberal-havens New York and California being on all the lists. Given that blue states typically have greater state debt than red ones, I am really questioning your statements here.

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Justify it on a case by case basis. Every region has different local needs and populaces to manage and that affects staffing needs within gov.
Are you saying that you would support a health-care system that is based around each individual region controlling it's own system, rather than a singular system enforcing a uniform standard, regardless of regional needs?

If so, then you would love the health-care legislation being pushed by the Republicans in Congress. It give states much more control than they previously had to create healthcare systems catered to their own populace needs, allowing case-by-case healthcare to happen, instead of the failure of a nationally enforced standard.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:45 PM   #16
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@PlasmaHam Have you seen Kansas and Louisiana recently? They are going into a crisis because Americans have an anathema for taxation. A little unrelated, but it's something to take note of.

When it comes to Health care, I would say we need to have the Federal Government intervene more directly. I think at the very least it needs to be involved in the market to a point that it can get better asking prices for drugs on the behalf of the citizens. Because the federal government would be a large buyer, it could ask for lower drug prices. The states in theory could do something similar, but because the populations are smaller they would have less market power and the drug companies would be able to have higher prices. This would make care in rural states more expensive.

Another option could be to simply reduce the longevity of medical patents. This would allow generic drugs to come on the market sooner and lower prices. The cost, of course, may be the lessened innovation in medicine. But because much of the research into drugs comes from public institutions, I think there is some evidence to suggest that patents have gone too far in the US.

I think another angle that is neglected would be medicine waste. Unlike instituting a national health service, attacking waste is something that is more politically feasible, because no one likes waste. Here's a good quote from the investigative journalist agency ProPublica on this:
Quote:
The National Academy of Medicine has estimated the health care system wastes around $765 billion a year — about a quarter of what we spend.
Source

As you can see, costs could be decreased if the government or the public on its own brings attention to this. While it is not ideal, it is something that can be done right now if you care about the health system, unlike landmark legislation.

ROTW Vet. AMA.

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Old January 10th, 2018, 04:31 PM   #17
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It's really too late to draw the line back to privatized healthcare.

The two states i'm familiar with were Pennsylvania and NY, NY was already on a state wide government healthcare didn't matter what you had if you had the $$ you got insurance. PA would give you insurance but the healthier your lifestyle the less of a risk you were so the insurance company could compensate you fairly and charge you less. if the nation had payed attention to NY they would have realized the single payer system isn't a great one.

the ER will treat you even if you are uninsured, they will still charge you some as they should but they aren't going to look at a man and say "oops no insurance sorry, you can lay there and die"


but in the grand scheme of things like someone else pointed out, we all knew it was a matter of time before the system broke once the federal govt got involved... politicians are too worried about the next election so they have lost sight of the basic account skill of balancing a budget and only spending what they have
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