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Old October 18th, 2017, 10:44 AM   #1
mattsmith48
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Default Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

I know the title is a little bias.

When the rest of the country see your province as racist, the worst thing to do is proving them right by passing law like this.

Quote:
Quebec has adopted a law that would force Muslim women who wear a niqab or burka to uncover their faces to use public services.

The Liberal government's Bill 62 on religious neutrality was put to a vote Wednesday morning in Quebec's National Assembly.

The Liberals, who hold a majority in provincial parliament, voted in favour of the bill, while all the other parties voted against. The legislation bans public workers — including doctors, teachers and daycare workers — as well as those receiving a service from the government, from wearing the niqab, burka or any other face covering.

It was extended to municipal services, including public transit, in an amendment made in August.

The bill also provides for the possibility of religious accommodation in certain cases.

Quebec Justice Minister Stéphanie Vallée said earlier this week that the law is necessary for "communication reasons, identification reasons and security reasons."

"This is a bill about le vivre ensemble [living together in harmony], it's a bill about guidelines and clearly establishes neutrality of the state," she said.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...l-62-1.4360121

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Old October 18th, 2017, 10:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

Any veil that covers the face should be banned.

Also, you can't be "racist" against a religious group. Muslims aren't a race.

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Old October 18th, 2017, 11:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Jinglebottom View Post
Any veil that covers the face should be banned.
It is practice of their religion and have the right wear a niqab or burka. Anyone have the right to practice their religion as long it does not put their own life or the life of others at risk. When driving, having something covering your face is not really the safest thing. It's like Sikhs who don't want to wear helmets when on a motorcycle because they have to wear a turban. The motorcycle is one the most dangerous vehicles you can drive and you need to wear a helmet.

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Originally Posted by Jinglebottom View Post
Also, you can't be "racist" against a religious group. Muslims aren't a race.
That's like saying ''I'm not racist I got a black friend''. People in Quebec are seen as racist mostly because of their attitude towards, and the way they treat Muslims and English speaking people, those are not race, but when people say racist you know what they meant.

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Old October 18th, 2017, 01:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
It is practice of their religion and have the right wear a niqab or burka. Anyone have the right to practice their religion as long it does not put their own life or the life of others at risk.
First, I love how here you are an ardent supporter of freedom of religious expression, yet have supported a desire to ban public prayer. Keep it up. And addressing your point, you could easily make an argument that their refusal to show their face is a security threat for all the other passengers. Face masks are often banned in situations with possible security and safety risks, like in organized protests, airplanes, and banks. Honestly, you being someone of the opinion that religion should not exempt you from the law, you should be rejoicing in this decision, as it removes a religious exemption.
Quote:
Anyone have the right to practice their religion as long it does not put their own life or the life of others at risk.
So, refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding is somehow such a threat that it must be banned, but refusing to show proof of your identity when using public transport isn't? Mind explaining that 'logic' for me?

You realize that you are both being closed-minded and racist by suggesting that only those of Middle-Eastern descent are Muslim? Anyhow, I always have a little laugh when atheists suggest Islam is a race. Just goes to show what they know about the matter I guess.

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Old October 18th, 2017, 02:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
First, I love how here you are an ardent supporter of freedom of religious expression, yet have supported a desire to ban public prayer. Keep it up. And addressing your point, you could easily make an argument that their refusal to show their face is a security threat for all the other passengers. Face masks are often banned in situations with possible security and safety risks, like in organized protests, airplanes, and banks. Honestly, you being someone of the opinion that religion should not exempt you from the law, you should be rejoicing in this decision, as it removes a religious exemption.
How would having your face covered be a threat to other passengers on a bus? Unless you are the one driving the bus.

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So, refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding is somehow such a threat that it must be banned, but refusing to show proof of your identity when using public transport isn't? Mind explaining that 'logic' for me?
Baking wedding cake is not part of practicing a religion, it is a job. For Muslim women covering their face it is part of practicing their religion.

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You realize that you are both being closed-minded and racist by suggesting that only those of Middle-Eastern descent are Muslim? Anyhow, I always have a little laugh when atheists suggest Islam is a race. Just goes to show what they know about the matter I guess.
How am I suggesting that?

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Old October 18th, 2017, 03:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

What does this law have to do with race or racism? lmao

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
It is practice of their religion and have the right wear a niqab or burka. Anyone have the right to practice their religion as long it does not put their own life or the life of others at risk.
Do you seriously believe this? Is this where you draw the line? I'm asking because I can come up with a few examples where religious freedom is definitely not superior to any other kind of freedom.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
That's like saying ''I'm not racist I got a black friend''. People in Quebec are seen as racist mostly because of their attitude towards, and the way they treat Muslims and English speaking people, those are not race, but when people say racist you know what they meant.
No thought went into this argument. You're reducing Muslim people to an ethnicity, and that's just plain incorrect.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
How would having your face covered be a threat to other passengers on a bus? Unless you are the one driving the bus.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7766461.html

Quote:
Women have been told they are not allowed to wear traditional Islamic clothing such as the burka and niqab in newly liberated areas of Mosul as part of new security measures imposed for the month of Ramadan, Iraqi police have said.

A statement from Nineveh police - the province in which the city is located - said that face coverings would temporarily be banned so Isis suicide bombers could not disguise themselves as women in public places.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...RITY-RISK.html

Quote:
ISIS has outlawed the burka at their security centres in a northern Iraqi city, despite previously brutally enforcing a law requiring them to be worn.

The terror group have banned women entering the buildings in Mosul while wearing the full-face covering after a number of commanders were killed by veiled women.
ISIS BANS BURKA: Evil terror group claim THEY are being attacked by women in veils http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-security-risk

BYE BYE BURKA: ISIS BANS BURKA IN IRAQI CITY AFTER KILLINGS BY VEILED WOMEN http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Isl...y-zones-467007

Even ISIS disagrees with you.


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Old October 18th, 2017, 06:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
What does this law have to do with race or racism? lmao


Do you seriously believe this? Is this where you draw the line? I'm asking because I can come up with a few examples where religious freedom is definitely not superior to any other kind of freedom.


No thought went into this argument. You're reducing Muslim people to an ethnicity, and that's just plain incorrect.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7766461.html




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...RITY-RISK.html



ISIS BANS BURKA: Evil terror group claim THEY are being attacked by women in veils http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...-security-risk

BYE BYE BURKA: ISIS BANS BURKA IN IRAQI CITY AFTER KILLINGS BY VEILED WOMEN http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Isl...y-zones-467007

Even ISIS disagrees with you.
Disagreeing with ISIS is not really a bad thing.

This is not Iraq, ISIS is not threat here. there as been four attacks in the entire country by sympathizers, for a total of 2 deaths and that's between 2014 and two weeks ago. This law is simply an overreaction to the fear mongering from the far-right as an attempt to gain their support in next year's election.

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Old October 18th, 2017, 09:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

I always feel that religion should be private and you should be neutral about it in public.
So extreme displays of whatever religion in public is always something I am kinda uncomfortable with

Therefore I don't see this law necessarily as racist? or Anti-Islam. According to the law a head scarf seems alright, it is just about covering the face, right?
Since covering the face isn't compulsory according to most scholars and Quran interpretations they are still able to practice their religion in public...so I feel it is still enough religious freedom.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 11:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Dalcourt View Post
I always feel that religion should be private and you should be neutral about it in public.
So extreme displays of whatever religion in public is always something I am kinda uncomfortable with

Therefore I don't see this law necessarily as racist? or Anti-Islam. According to the law a head scarf seems alright, it is just about covering the face, right?
Since covering the face isn't compulsory according to most scholars and Quran interpretations they are still able to practice their religion in public...so I feel it is still enough religious freedom.
As long you don't do the promotion of the religion wearing religious symbols and minding their own business it is still keeping religion private.

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Old October 19th, 2017, 01:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Disagreeing with ISIS is not really a bad thing.

This is not Iraq, ISIS is not threat here. there as been four attacks in the entire country by sympathizers, for a total of 2 deaths and that's between 2014 and two weeks ago. This law is simply an overreaction to the fear mongering from the far-right as an attempt to gain their support in next year's election.
So it's fine to ban burqas if your country is threatened by ISIS?

What is your opinion on these situations:
- Circumsise a male OR a female baby due to religious reasons.
- Refusing a blood transfusion due to religious reasons.
- Draft evasion due to religious reasons.
- Denying a particular service to someone due to religious reasons (the gay wedding cake thing).
- Praying in the workplace.
- Distribution of religious propaganda on the streets.
- Teaching religion at school as optional classes.


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Old October 19th, 2017, 09:47 AM   #11
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
So it's fine to ban burqas if your country is threatened by ISIS?
In a Muslim country ruled by sharia law they can do whatever they want, it would be like when the Vatican pulls new rules out of their ass.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Circumsise a male OR a female baby due to religious reasons.
Like picking which religion to follow circumcision should for the kid's decision when he's old enough to make that decision. Anyway circumcising you kids for religious reason is admitting that your god made a mistake and is not perfect or that he's too lazy to do it himself.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Refusing a blood transfusion due to religious reasons.
Its like refusing any other medical treatment if they don't want it nothing you can do about it, unless it puts other peoples life at risk like refusing vaccination or refusing to get your kids treated because that's what Jesus wants.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Draft evasion due to religious reasons.
If the current US president did it draft evasion can't that bad of a thing to do. Military service, like any other job should be your own choice to make and not something you should be forced to do.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Denying a particular service to someone due to religious reasons (the gay wedding cake thing).
Baking cakes is not practicing your religion, it is your job. If you don't want to make wedding cake for gay people that is your choice, but you're gonna have to find new job.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Praying in the workplace.
Its like masturbating in the workplace as long it is alone in a different room no one gives a shit. Except if you do the second thing wash your hands before going back to work.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Distribution of religious propaganda on the streets.
I said earlier no promotion of a religion in public.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
- Teaching religion at school as optional classes.
That goes against secularism so no. The things you learn in school should be all be based on facts.

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Old October 19th, 2017, 11:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

I personally don't find anything hugely wrong with the law and I consider myself very Leftist on a majority of issues. In terms of riding the bus and wearing the face covering, I don;t see a problem with a women wearing it as a rider since you can commit an attack with your face concealed or not. Hell, the 7/7 attacks happened perfectly fine without burkas. In terms of security in banks, airports etc I'd be more supportive of a system where the person can be taken to a separate room to remove the coverings for identity reasons as it's a fair balance between respecting the women's religious practices and also keeping security tight. The person who goes in with them can even be a woman if the person wishes. In all honesty, it's really not a black and white situation with full respect to the burka vs no respect for it. There a definitely realistic ways of handling it and respecting both sides of the argument.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
In a Muslim country ruled by sharia law they can do whatever they want, it would be like when the Vatican pulls new rules out of their ass.
I didn't mean Muslim countries ruled by sharia law, I meant countries threatened by ISIS. Would you agree that Syria, Iraq, France, Germany and the UK are countries threatened by ISIS?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Like picking which religion to follow circumcision should for the kid's decision when he's old enough to make that decision. Anyway circumcising you kids for religious reason is admitting that your god made a mistake and is not perfect or that he's too lazy to do it himself.
Okay, so would you be fine in allowing parents to circumcise their kids over religious reasons?

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Its like refusing any other medical treatment if they don't want it nothing you can do about it, unless it puts other peoples life at risk like refusing vaccination or refusing to get your kids treated because that's what Jesus wants.
But you stated earlier "Anyone have the right to practice their religion as long it does not put their own life or the life of others at risk."

Imagine I have a really bad accident and I am surely going to die if I don't receive a blood transfusion. According to what you said, I can't refuse the blood transfusion, because if I refuse it I'm putting my own life at risk.

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If the current US president did it draft evasion can't that bad of a thing to do. Military service, like any other job should be your own choice to make and not something you should be forced to do.
Wow, are you suggesting anything Trump does is good just because he did it? Also, he did draft evasion because he was diagnosed with a medical condition, it was nothing to do with religion. If I choose to do any kind of job, that means I can refuse to bake a cake to someone if I am a baker, right?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Baking cakes is not practicing your religion, it is your job. If you don't want to make wedding cake for gay people that is your choice, but you're gonna have to find new job.
You stated earlier any job should be your own choice to make and not something you should be forced to do. You're contradicting yourself. Why must I find a new job if I don't want to bake a cake to someone?

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Its like masturbating in the workplace as long it is alone in a different room no one gives a shit. Except if you do the second thing wash your hands before going back to work.
So if I want to pray in the workplace, I must do it in a different room, right?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
I said earlier no promotion of a religion in public.
Why not? What's wrong with it?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
That goes against secularism so no. The things you learn in school should be all be based on facts.
Even if we're talking about optional classes?


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Old October 19th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
I didn't mean Muslim countries ruled by sharia law, I meant countries threatened by ISIS. Would you agree that Syria, Iraq, France, Germany and the UK are countries threatened by ISIS?
France, Germany and the UK have a higher threat of attacks by ISIS than here its not that much of a threat than anything else. In Syria and Iraq its different because they are based in those countries.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Okay, so would you be fine in allowing parents to circumcise their kids over religious reasons?
I just answered that

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
But you stated earlier "Anyone have the right to practice their religion as long it does not put their own life or the life of others at risk."
And your point is?

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Imagine I have a really bad accident and I am surely going to die if I don't receive a blood transfusion. According to what you said, I can't refuse the blood transfusion, because if I refuse it I'm putting my own life at risk.
You can pick for yourself as long it doesn't put the life of others at risk, it is your right to refuse medical treatment.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Wow, are you suggesting anything Trump does is good just because he did it? Also, he did draft evasion because he was diagnosed with a medical condition, it was nothing to do with religion. If I choose to do any kind of job, that means I can refuse to bake a cake to someone if I am a baker, right?
The Trump part was a joke.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
You stated earlier any job should be your own choice to make and not something you should be forced to do. You're contradicting yourself. Why must I find a new job if I don't want to bake a cake to someone?
The choice is when it comes to picking the job, after you picked that job you have to do it or lose it.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
So if I want to pray in the workplace, I must do it in a different room, right?
Sure, I don't know why someone would want to pray at work, but as long it doesn't interfere with your job.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Why not? What's wrong with it?
1. Religion should be private and promoting it is exactly not that.
2. Promoting a religion makes it a business and if religions are acting like a business were gonna have to tax them.

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Even if we're talking about optional classes?
Yes, no religion thought in school.

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Old October 19th, 2017, 07:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

oh, the french again





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Old October 20th, 2017, 09:44 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
France, Germany and the UK have a higher threat of attacks by ISIS than here its not that much of a threat than anything else. In Syria and Iraq its different because they are based in those countries.
So it's fine to ban burqas in Syria and Iraq? (I am not sure if burqas are enforced there, I think they aren't).

I also want to say that, if we ban burqas, terrorists would find other ways to cause terror attacks, so the banning per se wouldn't solve much.

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I just answered that
I was hoping for a decent justification.

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You can pick for yourself as long it doesn't put the life of others at risk, it is your right to refuse medical treatment.
Ok, so you need to change your initial claim, since you said "as long as you don't put your own life at risk"

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
The choice is when it comes to picking the job, after you picked that job you have to do it or lose it.
Absolutely, but what if I'm self employed and the sole owner of the bakery? I'd have to fire myself?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
1. Religion should be private and promoting it is exactly not that.
Why should it be private?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
2. Promoting a religion makes it a business and if religions are acting like a business were gonna have to tax them.
I can agree with this.


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Yes, no religion thought in school.
Why not? You mentioned only facts should be taught at school. Only Mathematics is based on facts, everything else is either subjective or based on theories.


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Old October 20th, 2017, 11:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
So it's fine to ban burqas in Syria and Iraq? (I am not sure if burqas are enforced there, I think they aren't).
Those countries follow religious law so if they ban the burqas its up to them, like I said it would be like the Vatican making up a new rule or change their mind on something, like allowing women to be priests.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
I also want to say that, if we ban burqas, terrorists would find other ways to cause terror attacks, so the banning per se wouldn't solve much.
Proving my point that it is just an overreaction to the fear mongering of the far-right.

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Ok, so you need to change your initial claim, since you said "as long as you don't put your own life at risk"
Put you own life at risk, is more like not wanting to wear a helmet on a motorcycle because your god wants you to wear a turban.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Absolutely, but what if I'm self employed and the sole owner of the bakery? I'd have to fire myself?
That's why we need anti-discrimination laws to prevent that from happening.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Why not? You mentioned only facts should be taught at school. Only Mathematics is based on facts, everything else is either subjective or based on theories.
Every science class are also based on facts, you could say even languages class also, history class even though its bias in the which part they tell you about, is still based on facts.

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Old October 20th, 2017, 01:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Put you own life at risk, is more like not wanting to wear a helmet on a motorcycle because your god wants you to wear a turban.
But you're fine with people wanting to wear turbans instead of helmets, because having a law stating "you must wear a helmet if you ride a motorcycle" is discriminating against sikhs.

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That's why we need anti-discrimination laws to prevent that from happening.
And what would you do to the owner? Forcing him to bake the cake? Forcing him to shut the bakery down? Forcing him to change his views?

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Every science class are also based on facts, you could say even languages class also, history class even though its bias in the which part they tell you about, is still based on facts.
But we have believed that the Earth was flat, that black people carried certain diseases white people couldn't have, that AIDS only affected gay men, that washing hands had nothing to do with preventing infections, that the Earth was the centre of the universe, that global warming didn't exist, that the fact a hammer and a feather would take the same time to reach the ground when dropped on the Moon was ridiculous, that bacteria wasn't the cause of infection in humans because they couldn't survive the stomach acid, that vacinnes turned people into cows... What we know today is different from what we will know tomorrow, which is the consequence of something called the scientific method, yet we're meant to teach children scientific facts like they're undeniable truths, something ironically akin to religion. Your obstination with facts is as valid as the obstination with religious dogmas.

Also, why should religion be private?


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Last edited by Living For Love; October 20th, 2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old October 20th, 2017, 02:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
But you're fine with people wanting to wear turbans instead of helmets, because having a law stating "you must wear a helmet if you ride a motorcycle" is discriminating against sikhs.
No, that law is there for a reason, driving a motorcycle is dangerous and in an accident, if you don't wear a helmet you will probably die.

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
And what would you do to the owner? Forcing him to bake the cake? Forcing him to shut the bakery down? Forcing him to change his views?
You can fine the shit out of them


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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
But we have believed that the Earth was flat, that black people carried certain diseases white people couldn't have, that AIDS only affected gay men, that washing hands had nothing to do with preventing infections, that the Earth was the centre of the universe, that global warming didn't exist, that the fact a hammer and a feather would take the same time to reach the ground when dropped on the Moon was ridiculous, that bacteria wasn't the cause of infection in humans because they couldn't survive the stomach acid, that vacinnes turned people into cows... What we know today is different from what we will know tomorrow, which is the consequence of something called the scientific method, yet we're meant to teach children scientific facts like they're undeniable truths, something ironically akin to religion. Your obstination with facts is as valid as the obstination with religious dogmas.
You teach what we know as fact at the moment and when there is a major discovery that changes everything it will make news. Its not a reason to teach what we already know is bullshit.

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Old October 20th, 2017, 04:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: Quebec Passes Racist Law Against Muslim Women.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
No, that law is there for a reason, driving a motorcycle is dangerous and in an accident, if you don't wear a helmet you will probably die.
Yes, but just like someone has the right to deny receiving a blood transfusion, shouldn't people also have the right to get themselves killed with any other negative consequence to other people? If I want to commit suicide by driving a motorcycle without a helmet, why shouldn't I be able to do it?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
You can fine the shit out of them
Wooow, so you'd fine them while still allowing them to refuse to serve gay people? Holy sh!t, I think even liberals would disagree with you there xD

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
You teach what we know as fact at the moment and when there is a major discovery that changes everything it will make news. Its not a reason to teach what we already know is bullshit.
Please provide evidence that (any) god doesn't exist. And you still haven't answered my question why religion should be private.


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