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Old October 11th, 2017, 08:43 PM   #1
Stronk Serb
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Default The hypocrisy of the EU

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The European Union has signalled it is unlikely to intervene in the crisis unfolding in Spain over Catalan independence, saying it must respect the constitution of the country.

The Spanish government has said the planned referendum is illegal and on Wednesday arrested 14 senior officials, seized ballot papers and raided the homes of the Catalan separatists suspected of coordinating the vote, due to take place on 1 October.

The head of Catalonia’s pro-separatist government has claimed the national government’s actions amount to the creation of a “de facto state of emergency” in the region. Meanwhile, thousands of protesters have taken to the streets in support of Catalan secession.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7959696.html


So if Catalonia wants to seceede, it is totally okay to send the police against them because it's all dandy according to the constitution, but in Kosovo's case, Serbia cannot excercise her right of protectng her territorial integrity just like Spain can? I am sort of glad this happens because that might give our politicians leverage when dealing with these snakes.

Goddamn hypocrites.

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Old October 12th, 2017, 09:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

I don't know anything about Kosovo and Serbia so I can't say if its really hypocrisy or just a false equivalence. But I do think there is hypocrisy not only from the EU, but the entire western world, I said after the referendum a couple weeks ago that if this had happen in the Middle East a few hours they are drones passing over that country bombing the shit out of them.

The reason the EU took Spain's side on this is they fear that an independent Catalonia could potentially leave the EU.

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Old October 12th, 2017, 11:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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The reason the EU took Spain's side on this is they fear that an independent Catalonia could potentially leave the EU.
An independent Catalonia wouldn't even be part of the EU after gaining independence in the first place. They would have to apply for membership like any other European state.


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Old October 12th, 2017, 11:36 AM   #4
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An independent Catalonia wouldn't even be part of the EU after gaining independence in the first place. They would have to apply for membership like any other European state.
Better explanation of why they are on Spain's side. Thank you for clearing that up.

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Old October 12th, 2017, 03:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

As far as Kosovo is concerned, from what I gathered, the declaration of independence of Kosovo did not breach any international law. On the other hand, the separatists in Kosovo (KLA) were always supported by NATO.


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Old October 12th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

If the Catalans absolutely want their own state, then Spain and France should support this. The EU even too. I'm even in favor of Bavaria being a state of its own. Or Hesse.





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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:41 AM   #7
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If the Catalans absolutely want their own state, then Spain and France should support this. The EU even too. I'm even in favor of Bavaria being a state of its own. Or Hesse.
And why should they support it?


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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:17 AM   #8
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

Isn't that obvious? Imo, the majority will of an ethnic group must count more than historically justified claims, which are mostly just based on assimilation and similar reasons.





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Old October 13th, 2017, 08:14 AM   #9
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Isn't that obvious? Imo, the majority will of an ethnic group must count more than historically justified claims, which are mostly just based on assimilation and similar reasons.
There is no evidence that the majority of the Catalans want independence. I'd dare to say the majority do not want it, but you simply have no proof. Your argument is, thus, null. Also, this is not solely about history. This is about the legality of the whole process, and also about the fact that Spain or the EU have nothing to win from the independence of Catalonia. Hence why they have absolutely no reason to support it.


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Old October 13th, 2017, 08:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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There is no evidence that the majority of the Catalans want independence. I'd dare to say the majority do not want it, but you simply have no proof. Your argument is, thus, null. Also, this is not solely about history. This is about the legality of the whole process, and also about the fact that Spain or the EU have nothing to win from the independence of Catalonia. Hence why they have absolutely no reason to support it.
92% of Catalans voted yes, that's pretty good evidence they want Independence.

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Old October 13th, 2017, 10:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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Serbia cannot excercise her right of ...
her right?
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Old October 13th, 2017, 10:22 AM   #12
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

And even if the Catalans had voted only to 30% for independence ... I just posted my general opinion on this topic. We could as well talk about Scotland, Northern Ireland etc..


And quite specifically, a seperation of Catalonia is, of course, obviously a loss for Spain. I suppose there will be little change for the EU. Whether an independent Catalonia now decides to become a member of the EU or not.


I believe that sticking to national stuff in a world of real existential globalism is only a transfigured folklore and rather weakens states, e.g. in case of those so-called global players, as it can strengthen them. Cultural identity and independence can be preserved differently.

But when a smaller ethnic group decides to be an independent nation, I will always respect and support it, even though I think that this quest is fundamentally pointless or such.





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Old October 13th, 2017, 12:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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92% of Catalans voted yes, that's pretty good evidence they want Independence.
92% of a 43% turnout, so that's like 39-40% of the whole population of Catalonia.

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And even if the Catalans had voted only to 30% for independence ... I just posted my general opinion on this topic. We could as well talk about Scotland, Northern Ireland etc..
Just want to say Catalonia's situation is very different from Scotland's.

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And quite specifically, a seperation of Catalonia is, of course, obviously a loss for Spain. I suppose there will be little change for the EU. Whether an independent Catalonia now decides to become a member of the EU or not.
The main problem is how Catalonia's independence can fuel other separatist movements throughout Europe.

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But when a smaller ethnic group decides to be an independent nation, I will always respect and support it, even though I think that this quest is fundamentally pointless or such.
Even if it goes against national or international law?


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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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92% of a 43% turnout, so that's like 39-40% of the whole population of Catalonia.
And?

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Just want to say Catalonia's situation is very different from Scotland's.
What difference? Beside a referendum for Scottish independence doesn't end with the British PM sending the police in riot gear to kick the shit out of people trying to vote.

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The main problem is how Catalonia's independence can fuel other separatist movements throughout Europe.
Like who? And wasn't Brexit suppose to do that?

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Even if it goes against national or international law?
What law did they break?

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Old October 13th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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And?
And we're not sure what's the opinion of the remaining 57% of the population.

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What difference? Beside a referendum for Scottish independence doesn't end with the British PM sending the police in riot gear to kick the shit out of people trying to vote.
The difference is that the Scottish referendum happened within legal parameters, and both the UK and the EU would respect its result.

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Like who? And wasn't Brexit suppose to do that?
Like these. You mean the main goal of Brexit was to influence other countries to leave the EU?

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What law did they break?
The Spanish Constitution. The Spanish King also accused Catalonia of treason, not sure if that can be considered a crime.


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Old October 13th, 2017, 02:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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And we're not sure what's the opinion of the remaining 57% of the population.
So no referendum is valid unless the turnout is atlease 50%?

If you don't

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The difference is that the Scottish referendum happened within legal parameters, and both the UK and the EU would respect its result.
Well the EU knew that a Independent Scotland would most likely stay in the EU and the UK would look kinda bad to not let Scotland declare its independence after all the countries that left before.

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Like these. You mean the main goal of Brexit was to influence other countries to leave the EU?
That's a lot of countries.

The main goal of Brexit was the UK leaving the EU. People feared that it could lead to more countries leaving, but beside maybe France when they almost elected Marine Le Pen, I don't think there is anyone who got even close of maybe leaving.

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The Spanish Constitution. The Spanish King also accused Catalonia of treason, not sure if that can be considered a crime.
Name one country that as written in their constitution a legal way for any part of said country to have a referendum and declare independence.

Treason? It's not like they are trying to leave to join an enemy of Spain or that they launch a military attack against Spain plunging the country into a civil war. If it comes to that sure we can talk about treason, but until then not really.

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Old October 13th, 2017, 05:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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So no referendum is valid unless the turnout is atlease 50%?

If you don't
No, that's not what I said. My initial point was to counter Liam's argument that the majority of the population wanted independence. I just stated that we have no solid evidence that a majority wants it.

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Name one country that as written in their constitution a legal way for any part of said country to have a referendum and declare independence.
I don't know, but in Spain's case, the constitution does not allow secession or referendums. In Scotland's case, the referendum itself was valid because it didn't pose a threat to the Union.

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Treason? It's not like they are trying to leave to join an enemy of Spain or that they launch a military attack against Spain plunging the country into a civil war. If it comes to that sure we can talk about treason, but until then not really.
I actually read an article before about the supposed independent Catalonia's capacity of acquiring nuclear weapons and proceed to use them against Spain. It was just a supposition, but yes, it could eventually happen.


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Old October 14th, 2017, 12:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

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No, that's not what I said. My initial point was to counter Liam's argument that the majority of the population wanted independence. I just stated that we have no solid evidence that a majority wants it.
So why can't a 92% of the vote with a 43% turnout can't be evidence that the majority of Catalans wants independence? Even if more people against it had showed up that is still a big deficit to erase and its with out counting the people for independence who were to busy getting beat up by the police to vote.

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I don't know, but in Spain's case, the constitution does not allow secession or referendums. In Scotland's case, the referendum itself was valid because it didn't pose a threat to the Union.
In what way it wasn't a threat?

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Old October 14th, 2017, 08:52 AM   #19
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Default Re: The hypocrisy of the EU

In terms of the EU's intervention in Kosovo and not Catalonia, we do have to respect that the referendum WAS illegal in Spain, whether we actually support their independence or not whereas I very much doubt it was as clear in Kosovo. That's the entire point in fact (and I've read up on this so my knowledge isn't perfect). Catalonia's independence declaration was directly in violation with Spain's constitution so the EU had no basis to step in and stop Spain from crushing it. However, Kosovo's legality is still disputed to this day with no clear answer as there is no precedent or law that directly calls it illegal. Therefore, it's only fair the EU steps in to prevent any sort of backlash by Serbia in case it ends up being unjustified and therefore sparks conflict between the 2 potential nations.
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Old October 15th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #20
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So why can't a 92% of the vote with a 43% turnout can't be evidence that the majority of Catalans wants independence? Even if more people against it had showed up that is still a big deficit to erase and its with out counting the people for independence who were to busy getting beat up by the police to vote.
Not sure what you mean. 39% is hardly a majority.

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In what way it wasn't a threat?
Because Scotland wanted to remain in the EU after getting independence, and no one was against that. The referendum was legal and didn't cause social or economic turmoil. None of this is happening in Spain.


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