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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:22 PM   #1
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Default AMERICA: Love it or leave!

Now that I have your attention, I don't want anyone to leave, however, it you have an issue; come up with a solution. I have had it with all these jerks who choose to disrespect America by taking a knee during the National Anthem. Now I just read about a football team for ages 8 and under taking a knee during the playing of the National Anthem. Disgusting! I am not interested in a debate. I have said my piece. I will not engage. I am an American. I am proud to stand and salute my flag and support my country. I pray for my country and for those who show their disrespect that they will come to their senses and show respect as they work to right wrongs. God Bless America!
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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:38 PM   #2
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>"I am not interested in a debate
>Posts in ROTW

Uhm okay? Should I lock this then?...

Im also an american, and I couldn't care less about someone taking a knee during he national anthem or not standing for it. That's their right and their choice as a fellow American to decide what they want to say or do.

(Speaking of Collin Capernick now) That being said, I don't really agree with what happened NOT because of what actually happened, but because of who he is. If you want to express your political beliefs or whatever that's cool, go right ahead, but if you're at your job site and doing your job then that's not the appropriate time or place to be doing that. You signed a contract to play football. You didn't sign a contract to express your beliefs. That's my only problem with the whole situation.

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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:47 PM   #3
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i give this post a D+, i appreciated your passion but not your demand for cult-like reverence for meaningless ceremonial gestures, and i found your inflated disgust for mildly unpatriotic actions to be a tired rhetoric. really who cares about any of this.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:47 PM   #4
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@Bull, I thought it was well stated. It is such a shame that even children are being indoctrinated into disrespecting the government that provides their own education. Our national identity is the one thing that binds Americans regardless of race, religion, or class. Actively pushing against our national identity does not heal divisions, but create them.

I don't really see this as just regarding football (though relevant) but as a sign of a larger problem within our culture. On the football topic though, I do wish the media would call it for what it is rather than claim it has nothing to do with America. And while these players do have the right to protest America, they do not have a right to use the NFL as a stage for it, and thus the NFL is under no obligation to keep them signed-on.

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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: AMERICA: Love it or leave!

Its been a year since this started get over it. It's just football players having quiet non-violent protest against racial discrimination from law enforcement. I thought you guys were for free speech?

Also why playing the national anthem before a football game of eight year old kids? And why letting eight year old kids play football that is really irresponsible parenting.

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Old September 19th, 2017, 09:59 PM   #6
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@Bull, I thought it was well stated. It is such a shame that even children are being indoctrinated into disrespecting the government that provides their own education. Our national identity is the one thing that binds Americans regardless of race, religion, or class. Actively pushing against our national identity does not heal divisions, but create them.

I don't really see this as just regarding football (though relevant) but as a sign of a larger problem within our culture. On the football topic though, I do wish the media would call it for what it is rather than claim it has nothing to do with America. And while these players do have the right to protest America, they do not have a right to use the NFL as a stage for it, and thus the NFL is under no obligation to keep them signed-on.
So you have a problem with an American expressing his right to free speech or?... im confused when people say this ^ that you're disrespecting your country by not standing for the national anthem n stuff but you have the right to stand for it or not?

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Old September 19th, 2017, 10:05 PM   #7
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Its been a year since this started get over it. It's just football players having quiet non-violent protest against racial discrimination from law enforcement. I thought you guys were for free speech?
I don't see why I should change my opinion on disrespecting the flag just because a year has passed?

@Mars How is my supporting of free speech relevant here? Please elaborate.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 10:10 PM   #8
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It's someone's right to decide if they want to stand or not to the national anthem. I don't see how that's disrespecting our government or teaching kids some bs like? If anything were teaching kids they have the right to free speech.

If you think everyone here should be required to stand to the national anthem then that's oppressing my right to free speech, is it not? So I don't see why you're bringing up these points of brainwashing kids to dislike the government when that's not the case?... or relevant?...
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Old September 19th, 2017, 10:13 PM   #9
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It's been 150 years since slavery ended in America, has the Left gotten over it yet? I don't see why I should change my opinion on disrespecting the flag just because a year has passed?
I don't know about the left, but the right and more precisely the ones who live in the south, don't seem to have gotten over slavery ending and losing the civil war.

I'm just saying its kinda late to start this thread and getting outrage by these protests.

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Old September 19th, 2017, 10:29 PM   #10
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It's someone's right to decide if they want to stand or not to the national anthem. I don't see how that's disrespecting our government or teaching kids some bs like?
People have a right, sure. People also have a right to call every black guy they see a nigger. That doesn't mean that I am somehow against free speech by telling people it's disrespectfull to say that. Nor does free speech mean that I can't have an opinion against certain speech.
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If you think everyone here should be required to stand to the national anthem then that's oppressing my right to free speech, is it not? So I don't see why you're bringing up these points of brainwashing kids to dislike the government when that's not the case?... or relevant?...
@PlasmaHam
Did I ever say that I wanted to force people to stand? Honestly I still don't see the point of bringing in the First Amendment here. I have a right to say that people are wrong to disrespect the flag and thus the nation, just like others have the right to do just that.

I think you are confused about my position here. I believe that the continued anti-American beliefs by those on the Left are a threat to national stability and undermines our national indentity. None of that is in any reasonable manner related to freedom of speech. So I ask again, how is free speech relevant here?

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Old September 20th, 2017, 04:42 AM   #11
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Default Re: AMERICA: Love it or leave!

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
I don't know about the left, but the right and more precisely the ones who live in the south, don't seem to have gotten over slavery ending and losing the civil war.

I'm just saying its kinda late to start this thread and getting outrage by these protests.
The southern aristocrat viewed the abolition of slavery as an attack on his pockets, the southern soldier viewed it as an attack on his state rights which could mean infringement of his personal rights later on. Do you support national self-determination? I do, and I think the South should have been let go. They overwhelmingly wanted to secede.

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Old September 20th, 2017, 07:59 AM   #12
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People have a right, sure. People also have a right to call every black guy they see a nigger. That doesn't mean that I am somehow against free speech by telling people it's disrespectfull to say that. Nor does free speech mean that I can't have an opinion against certain speech.
Did I ever say that I wanted to force people to stand? Honestly I still don't see the point of bringing in the First Amendment here. I have a right to say that people are wrong to disrespect the flag and thus the nation, just like others have the right to do just that.
Well I also agree with people disrespecting the flag is wrong. Stepping on it or burning a still flyable flag is fucked up (and isn't it illegal as well?) But i respect people's right to protest. Protest is what made America. Not standing for the national anthem isn't disrespectful. Point blank period.

Also, I never said that you specifically said you wanted to force people to stand for it. I'm just saying that if you're against people sitting down then what does it sound like then?

Calling someone the n word is completely different from not standing for the national anthem and I have no idea why you'd even compare the two. If you call someone the n word then you're discriminating and being a fucking racist against someone. If you don't stand for the national anthem you're just... not standing for a song? You can still like America and respect the country but you don't have to stand for it. How many times do you stand when a football or baseball game is playing on TV? I bet you don't.

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I think you are confused about my position here. I believe that the continued anti-American beliefs by those on the Left are a threat to national stability and undermines our national indentity. None of that is in any reasonable manner related to freedom of speech. So I ask again, how is free speech relevant here?
Again, kinda sick of you stereotyping left leaning beliefs with being anti-American. Trump wants to put a fucking travel ban on muskims, take rights away from gays, discriminate against Mexicans, take away health care from thousands of Americans and you want to tell me he's the most patriotic person in the country because he's what? A republican? Yeah, okay. Just because someone doesn't stand for the anthem doesn't mean they're undermining or disrespecting the nation. Honestly I get more triggered over people doing shit with the flag than not standing for the anthem.

And again, if you're not standing or if you are standing, you are expressing your free speech, and that's how it's relevant.

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Old September 20th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #13
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I actually had to google "taking a knee during the National Anthem" because I wasn't sure what this really meant as we don't have this type of traditions in my country.

I believe people have the right to refuse adopting a certain gesture or body position, unless, of course, that goes against a certain established rule. For instance, I know that military people have to salute the flag and the President, and they know it's a rule when they enlist the army. As far as the NFL players prostests are concerned, Mars summed up pretty well my thoughts, although I'm not sure if NFL actually obliges players to adopt a certain body posture when the national anthem is being played. Also, calling someone a "nigger" is a form of free spech, just like taking a knee during the National Anthem is. Doesn't mean that I agree with it, but people should be allowed to say it/do it.


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Old September 20th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #14
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Well I also agree with people disrespecting the flag is wrong. Stepping on it or burning a still flyable flag is fucked up (and isn't it illegal as well?) But i respect people's right to protest. Protest is what made America. Not standing for the national anthem isn't disrespectful. Point blank period.
Not standing for the national anthem is disrespectful. Just because you are 'protesting' doesn't change that point. People have a right to protest, but just because you protest does not mean you are morally in the right. Is the pointless violence and destruction done by Antifa morally righteous because they are protesting? No, regardless of how you feel about their political stances, their senseless destruction is not morally justified because senseless destruction is never morally justified.
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Also, I never said that you specifically said you wanted to force people to stand for it. I'm just saying that if you're against people sitting down then what does it sound like then?
Are you against calling black people niggers?

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Calling someone the n word is completely different from not standing for the national anthem and I have no idea why you'd even compare the two. If you call someone the n word then you're discriminating and being a fucking racist against someone. If you don't stand for the national anthem you're just... not standing for a song? You can still like America and respect the country but you don't have to stand for it. How many times do you stand when a football or baseball game is playing on TV? I bet you don't.
Calling someone a nigger and refusing to stand for the flag are both cases of controversial uses of free speech, so it is applicable here. Honestly I don't get your argument here. You said that you don't personally like flag burning, right? But the flag is only some cotton with a pretty design, so why does it matter if they burn it or not? It matters, because that flag has meaning, it stands for America. The National Anthem is not just a 'song' like you are saying it is. It has meaning. It is a symbol of America.

As for your other statements, I suggest you read the US Flag Code.


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Again, kinda sick of you stereotyping left leaning beliefs with being anti-American. Trump wants to put a fucking travel ban on muskims, take rights away from gays, discriminate against Mexicans, take away health care from thousands of Americans and you want to tell me he's the most patriotic person in the country...
Did I say Trump was the most patriotic person in the country? I still stand by my statement that the Left in general is less patriotic, and your posts here certainly aren't doing anything to change those. But let's not dive into a "which side is more patriotic' shall we? This thread is already all over the place.

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And again, if you're not standing or if you are standing, you are expressing your free speech, and that's how it's relevant.
If you are calling someone a nigger, you are expressing free speech. How is free speech relevant here? If you want me to stop using that word, I suggest you stop this irrelevant side argument.
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Old September 20th, 2017, 09:59 AM   #15
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Not standing for the national anthem is disrespectful. Just because you are 'protesting' doesn't change that point. People have a right to protest, but just because you protest does not mean you are morally in the right. Is the pointless violence and destruction done by Antifa morally righteous because they are protesting? No, regardless of how you feel about their political stances, their senseless destruction is not morally justified because senseless destruction is never morally justified.

Are you against calling black people niggers?


Calling someone a nigger and refusing to stand for the flag are both cases of controversial uses of free speech, so it is applicable here. Honestly I don't get your argument here. You said that you don't personally like flag burning, right? But the flag is only some cotton with a pretty design, so why does it matter if they burn it or not? It matters, because that flag has meaning, it stands for America. The National Anthem is not just a 'song' like you are saying it is. It has meaning. It is a symbol of America.

As for your other statements, I suggest you read the US Flag Code.



Did I say Trump was the most patriotic person in the country? I still stand by my statement that the Left in general is less patriotic, and your posts here certainly aren't doing anything to change those. But let's not dive into a "which side is more patriotic' shall we? This thread is already all over the place.


If you are calling someone a nigger, you are expressing free speech. How is free speech relevant here? If you want me to stop using that word, I suggest you stop this irrelevant side argument.
What the shit? Am I missing something here?

Okay, one, not standing for the national anthem again ISNT comparable to terrorists destroying property and harming people? Wtf? Where are you getting this from? Two, Yes, im against people saying the N word because it's FUCKING RACIST AND DISCRIMINATORY. I don't?? Understand what's hard to understand about that?

Sure, both are expressing your free speech, but one is being a racist dickhead and one is in case of a protest of something. That's like saying marching down the street is disrespectful? Like? I'm still confused about the comparisons and WHY exactly you're comparing these completely different things?

I understand that the national anthem means something. I do get that. It represents the flag and the country n stuff. But if you want to protest or if you don't want to stand it isn't being disrespectful, it's just expressing your right to protest and speak out against whatever wrong in America you're speaking out against. Calling someone the N word is purposefully trying to hurt that person based off of their race, which is wrong. It isn't a matter of expressing your free speech at that point it's about being hurting someone else.

I didn't say you said trump was the most patriotic. However you stand up for the things he does and you support him regardless of the anti American shit that he does. Yet now you want to argue about this?

Again tho, how many times is the national anthem on TV and you don't stand for it? I seen a post about this before and it brings up a really good point now. Now whenever I'm watching a game on tv and they start playing it I stand. If I didn't stand, it wouldn't be disrespectful right? I'm not protesting or anything, it's just a song on tv at that point right?

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Old September 20th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #16
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Sure, both are expressing your free speech, but one is being a racist dickhead and one is in case of a protest of something. That's like saying marching down the street is disrespectful? Like? I'm still confused about the comparisons and WHY exactly you're comparing these completely different things?
The problem is that if you justify an action on the basis that it is a protest, then pretty much anything can be justified. If I organised an anti Black Lives Matter rally and marched down the street while shouting "BLM activists are niggers" (despite the fact that not all blm activists are black people), would that be justifiable?

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I understand that the national anthem means something. I do get that. It represents the flag and the country n stuff. But if you want to protest or if you don't want to stand it isn't being disrespectful, it's just expressing your right to protest and speak out against whatever wrong in America you're speaking out against. Calling someone the N word is purposefully trying to hurt that person based off of their race, which is wrong. It isn't a matter of expressing your free speech at that point it's about being hurting someone else.
Would you have a problem if I called a white person a nigger?

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I'm not protesting or anything, it's just a song on tv at that point right?
Nigger is just a word, the national anthem is just a song, the flag is just an object. They are equally valid when it comes to freedom of speech.


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Old September 20th, 2017, 11:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: AMERICA: Love it or leave!

I personally wouldn't ever take a knee for the national anthem. However, I respect peoples' rights of expression to do so.

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Old September 20th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #18
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The problem is that if you justify an action on the basis that it is a protest, then pretty much anything can be justified. If I organised an anti Black Lives Matter rally and marched down the street while shouting "BLM activists are niggers" (despite the fact that not all blm activists are black people), would that be justifiable?


Would you have a problem if I called a white person a nigger?


Nigger is just a word, the national anthem is just a song, the flag is just an object. They are equally valid when it comes to freedom of speech.
This is getting off topic, but even then, yes. If you're protesting against someone's race which doesn't make sense? then that's discrimination. If you called a white person the n word, that's racist because the word is still racist.

Yes, theyre Just words or objects, but everything has a meaning behind it. Just because you're expressing your right to free speech by saying racist shit doesn't mean your right. If you're protesting against a problem in America, and your way of expressing your protest is by taking a knee during the national anthem, that isn't offensive? That's not discriminatory? By saying the N word to someone you're purposefully trying to hurt them and or discriminate against them. They're completely different circumstances EVEN THOUGH they're both expressing their right to freedom of speech.

Is it really that hard to understand? Like I'm confused of how you guys are trying to argue this

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Old September 20th, 2017, 11:55 AM   #19
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All this boils down to a cult-like worship of a damn song. I can tell you now, whilst some may get upset about it, most people would not give a single damn if a British sportsman did this over here. Why? Because we can make the distinction between a national anthem and British identity. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and would never think of betraying it but I also feel no obligation to show respect to God Save the Queen. It was never in his contract to stand for the flag nor was it really a 'protest using the NFL as a stage' as he was still there doing the job he was paid to do. Anything beyond that was their problem, not his. Star-Spangled Banner is not America. The US flag is not America. Love the nation, not the symbols.
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Old September 20th, 2017, 12:03 PM   #20
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This is getting off topic, but even then, yes. If you're protesting against someone's race which doesn't make sense? then that's discrimination. If you called a white person the n word, that's racist because the word is still racist.
There is not such thing as racist words, only racist attitudes. Words can't be inherently racist, if anything, they can promote racist actions, but they are not racist per se. By calling a white person a nigger, who exactly are you being racist against? White or black people? I could also ask you how you feel about black people calling other black people niggers, or how you feel about the expression white trash or cracker.

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Yes, theyre Just words or objects, but everything has a meaning behind it. Just because you're expressing your right to free speech by saying racist shit doesn't mean your right.
It's not about being right, it's about being able to express an opinion. I can either be allowed to say it or not.

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If you're protesting against a problem in America, and your way of expressing your protest is by taking a knee during the national anthem, that isn't offensive? That's not discriminatory? By saying the N word to someone you're purposefully trying to hurt them and or discriminate against them. They're completely different circumstances EVEN THOUGH they're both expressing their right to freedom of speech.

Is it really that hard to understand? Like I'm confused of how you guys are trying to argue this
Because the fact that I am bigoted or prejudiced isn't enough reason to have my right of freedom of speech removed. Nor is the fact that people's feelings are offended by what I might say. If we forbid people from using the word nigger because it's offensive, why not forbid any other offensive words like fag, retarded, idiot? Even the word autist is nowadays used as a synonym of idiot or stupid.


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