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Old October 24th, 2016, 06:39 PM   #1
phuckphace
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Default the deadly consequences of bad regulation

this thread can be an archive for any stories you and I can find detailing preventable disasters that happened or were at least worsened by poor or absent regulation, preferably ones where people get blown to bits. literal creative destruction, as the lolbertarians would say, usually right before recommending you move to North Korea if you like regulations so much.

YouTube is a handy resource for disaster videos of this genre, by far the freakiest I've found would have to be this amateur phone video taken by a local citizen in the immediate aftermath of the West Fertilizer Company plant explosion in 2013.




in this case the fire that set off the explosion was set on purpose by some psycho, but if you skip to 2:30 in the video you'll notice the school, housing and apartment complex built within pissing distance of what was essentially a munitions factory. this country is not unfamiliar with the hazard and explosive yields of large amounts of nitrate fertilizer (being a key component of the OKC bomb built by Timothy McVeigh, for example) so I'm going to file this under Texans being Texans. don't ya start treadin' on me now, pardner.

PEPCON happened in 1988, multiple explosions in an ammonium nitrate plant.



on top of leaking storage drums and other general shittiness that you couldn't not notice, they also had literally nothing in the way of emergency plans or protocols ("fire starts, run like hell") and the plant was built atop a 16-inch gas line. the death toll would've been far higher had this plant been located nearer to a residential area (it was powerful enough to wreck roofs and smash windows for miles around). I dunno about you guys but I'm definitely not shopping at PEPCON for my ammonium nitrate anymore.

Aberfan disaster in 1966, Wales. a huge landslide caused by a collapsed pile of mine tailings flattened a school and killed 116 kids and 28 adults. not surprisingly, the risk was noted beforehand and concerns were raised before being lost in bureaucracy and shoulder-shrugging.

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Old October 24th, 2016, 07:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Originally Posted by phuckphace View Post
this thread can be an archive for any stories you and I can find detailing preventable disasters that happened or were at least worsened by poor or absent regulation, preferably ones where people get blown to bits. literal creative destruction, as the lolbertarians would say, usually right before recommending you move to North Korea if you like regulations so much.\
Agreed. The worst part is that the government often knows that something is likely/possible to go wrong, and yet they still do nothing to prevent the operation or mitigate the risks if possible. And then when the plant explodes or shuts down, we find they have been illegally dumping toxic waste into the surrounding areas. Just search 'Superfund sites' in Google, and you will see all of the pre-apocalyptic wastelands which underfunded government programs are attempting to clean up.

ROTW Vet. AMA.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 01:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

This isn't governments fault, this is a private company that did not follow proper government laws of waste disposal.

It's a case of a good law (good government) not behind adhered too, with little enforcement from a Republican controlled state who doesn't believe in government regulation.

I'm not surprised.

But place blame where blame is due and don't scapegoat the cause of the problem on government regulation, when deregulated state behavior is to blame.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 09:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
This isn't governments fault, this is a private company that did not follow proper government laws of waste disposal.

It's a case of a good law (good government) not behind adhered too, with little enforcement from a Republican controlled state who doesn't believe in government regulation.

I'm not surprised.

But place blame where blame is due and don't scapegoat the cause of the problem on government regulation, when deregulated state behavior is to blame.
If the government as regulation but just like in this case Republicans don't enforce them its the government's fault that it happen. Government doesn't only have to pass regulation but also have to enforce them, its their job.

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Old October 25th, 2016, 09:58 AM   #5
phuckphace
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
This isn't governments fault, this is a private company that did not follow proper government laws of waste disposal.

It's a case of a good law (good government) not behind adhered too, with little enforcement from a Republican controlled state who doesn't believe in government regulation.

I'm not surprised.

But place blame where blame is due and don't scapegoat the cause of the problem on government regulation, when deregulated state behavior is to blame.
in the OP I plainly noted "poor or absent regulation." regulations being in place mean nothing if they aren't consistently and regularly enforced (random, unannounced safety inspections, etc.) this obviously wasn't happening or the unsafe plant conditions would've been noted and acted upon by inspectors prior to the disaster.

I'm not scapegoating regulations as the cause of anything, as a lolbertarian would do. not sure how you managed to read that into a post written to mock those who think we need less regulation.

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Old October 25th, 2016, 01:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
If the government as regulation but just like in this case Republicans don't enforce them its the government's fault that it happen. Government doesn't only have to pass regulation but also have to enforce them, its their job.
Yes, the government should enforce laws, like laws against illegal immigration and carelessly handling classified information.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 02:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Yes, the government should enforce laws, like laws against illegal immigration and carelessly handling classified information.
The non-enforcement of immigration laws rarely kills anyone like shitty regulation that don't do anything or government not enforcing those regulation do.

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 03:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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The non-enforcement of immigration laws rarely kills anyone like shitty regulation that don't do anything or government not enforcing those regulation do.
Wow, once again a comical argument with no basis in reality. I don't get the #Liberal Logic you are implying here, I guess government has the right to not enforce any laws it likes as long as it doesn't kill anyone. That sounds like the basis of a great democracy!
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Between 2008 and 2014, 40% of all murder convictions in Florida were criminal aliens. In New York it was 34% and Arizona 17.8%.
During those years, criminal aliens accounted for 38% of all murder convictions in the five states of California, Texas, Arizona, Florida and New York, while illegal aliens constitute only 5.6% of the total population in those states.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 03:32 PM   #9
mattsmith48
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Wow, once again a comical argument with no basis in reality. I don't get the #Liberal Logic you are implying here, I guess government has the right to not enforce any laws it likes as long as it doesn't kill anyone. That sounds like the basis of a great democracy!
Source:
I have to call bullshit on this one.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...-murder-stats/

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 04:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

I had to roll my eyes at the above post naming the Republicans as the culprits only because the very same poster always names Republicans as the villains behind everything wrong regardless.

where he would sneer "Republican" I'd use the more accurate term pseudocon. these people are indeed useless, but their alleged conservatism is fraudulent and shouldn't be invoked as the reason behind their rejection of sensible regulations because an actual conservative believes precisely the opposite. I mean if you hadn't noticed, I'm a Trump supporter who wants stronger environmental and corporate safety regulations so it's obviously possible for ugh Republicans to also want to keep corporate influence in check and their practices contained.

FACT CHECK: "Conservatives" who claim corporate & environmental regulations are detrimental to freedom and the economy are fake conservatives and better called economic nihilists. stop referring to them as Republicans or conservatives.

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Old October 25th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Originally Posted by phuckphace View Post
in the OP I plainly noted "poor or absent regulation." regulations being in place mean nothing if they aren't consistently and regularly enforced (random, unannounced safety inspections, etc.) this obviously wasn't happening or the unsafe plant conditions would've been noted and acted upon by inspectors prior to the disaster.

I'm not scapegoating regulations as the cause of anything, as a lolbertarian would do. not sure how you managed to read that into a post written to mock those who think we need less regulation.
It's how your wording it, while knowing the vagueness can be skewed toward other arguments.

For instance when a post or article says "failed regulation" the general public thinks defunding existing enforcement is the equivalent of "deregulation" as an answer to "failed regulation".

My main point is that if that isn't your position clarify that.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 10:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

^mate my points are all done out plain as day if you would just read the bloomin' post. @Porpoise101 had no trouble decoding it and tenbux says @Vlerchan gets a wildly different vibe from the OP as well. I literally could not be less vague if I tried.

the government does have some share of the blame, but not for the same reasons the small gubmint cru thinks. the fault of the government lies in not properly enforcing the regulations that stand, and the corporations share blame for their poor/unsafe practices that are usually tolerated to save (((costs))). well unlike them I'm not an economic nihilist ("Republican" as mattsmith would say) so I'm calling for stronger safety regs and better enforcement.

if Texas and other states won't rezone their shit and condemn/evacuate residential property within a certain radius of a high explosive factory, they should at least build tall concrete barrier walls around the perimeter of a residential area or school. with the Texan illegal labor pool it'll of course be built by Mexicans which would be funny.

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Old October 26th, 2016, 01:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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Originally Posted by phuckphace View Post
I had to roll my eyes at the above post naming the Republicans as the culprits only because the very same poster always names Republicans as the villains behind everything wrong regardless.

where he would sneer "Republican" I'd use the more accurate term pseudocon. these people are indeed useless, but their alleged conservatism is fraudulent and shouldn't be invoked as the reason behind their rejection of sensible regulations because an actual conservative believes precisely the opposite. I mean if you hadn't noticed, I'm a Trump supporter who wants stronger environmental and corporate safety regulations so it's obviously possible for ugh Republicans to also want to keep corporate influence in check and their practices contained.

FACT CHECK: "Conservatives" who claim corporate & environmental regulations are detrimental to freedom and the economy are fake conservatives and better called economic nihilists. stop referring to them as Republicans or conservatives.
Tbf I think economic nihilists do have a good claim to be the "real" Republicans.
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Old October 26th, 2016, 10:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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I have to call bullshit on this one.
You responded to an example but not the actual question. And in quite a comedic way might I add. Illegal immigrants still result in more deaths than lacking Federal regulation. There is little argument of that.

Let me repeat the question,"Does government have the right to not enforce any laws as long as said laws do not directly harm human lives"
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Old October 26th, 2016, 10:30 PM   #15
mattsmith48
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Default Re: the deadly consequences of bad regulation

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You responded to an example but not the actual question. And in quite a comedic way might I add.
I'll take that as a compliment

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Illegal immigrants still result in more deaths than lacking Federal regulation. There is little argument of that.
Any sources to support this claim?

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Let me repeat the question,"Does government have the right to not enforce any laws as long as said laws do not directly harm human lives"
If they don't want to enforce the law they have the right to change it.

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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