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Old August 23rd, 2016, 07:09 PM   #1
mike16m
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what do you all think the federal income tax rates should be in the us? should the rich pay a higher percentage or should everyone pay the same percentage
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Old August 24th, 2016, 03:40 AM   #2
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The rich should pay a muchhhh higher percentage.


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Old August 24th, 2016, 04:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: taxes

Well if everyone paid the same percentage the rich would end up having more taxed compared to the poor anyway. It makes sense.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 05:11 AM   #4
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Default Re: taxes

Flat rate.

It's less distortion-inducing to discriminate elsewhere.

---

N.B.: It's better to have a higher tax rate than run a deficit hoping to lower it.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 06:19 AM   #5
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Default Re: taxes

Are you guys talking about having the same tax rate for everyone?

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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: taxes

Same percentage across the board. We shouldn't punish the rich for being rich. Anyways, a standardized tax rate would still have the rich paying significantly more than the average person. It isn't like a standardized tax rate means everyone pays the same. Also, higher tax rates on the rich can be seen as discrimination, unfairly targeting a specific group. A standardized tax rate is the fairest system.

I have actually heard of some people and companies refusing to earn over a specific amount of money to avoid higher tax percentages. That ultimately hurts the economy, when a supplier or skilled worker restricts themselves.
@Reise Yes, I believe the OP wants to debate whether there should be a standard tax rate, or a progressive tax rate.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:09 AM   #7
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Are you guys talking about having the same tax rate for everyone?
I believe the questions related to how progressive the optimal tax schedule should be.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 07:33 AM   #8
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I believe the questions related to how progressive the optimal tax schedule should be.
Oh, yeah that's already more clear.

I'm quite disturbed by the idea of a single tax rate but I will argue on that once I go home as I'm gonna need some maths.
"Some", haha.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 08:11 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Same percentage across the board. We shouldn't punish the rich for being rich. Anyways, a standardized tax rate would still have the rich paying significantly more than the average person. It isn't like a standardized tax rate means everyone pays the same. Also, higher tax rates on the rich can be seen as discrimination, unfairly targeting a specific group. A standardized tax rate is the fairest system.

I have actually heard of some people and companies refusing to earn over a specific amount of money to avoid higher tax percentages. That ultimately hurts the economy, when a supplier or skilled worker restricts themselves.
@Reise Yes, I believe the OP wants to debate whether there should be a standard tax rate, or a progressive tax rate.
Do you think it is fair to tax the richest the same the poorest that struggle to afford food?


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Old August 24th, 2016, 08:19 AM   #10
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Do you think it is fair to tax the richest the same the poorest that struggle to afford food?
Unfortunately it is a pay-to-live system and it would be equally unfair to tax some people and not others. Furthermore it would take a long time to organise which people would be taxed and which people shouldn't.

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Old August 24th, 2016, 08:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by twentyonehorizons View Post
Unfortunately it is a pay-to-live system and it would be equally unfair to tax some people and not others. Furthermore it would take a long time to organise which people would be taxed and which people shouldn't.
We shouldn't be taking money from those that can't afford to give it because it is a pay to live system. The poor are already disadvantaged enough.

The rich also have the first 11k tax free and then the nest 33k at 20% etc ect so I think it is fair.

It won't take a long time to figure out who should be taxed and who shouldn't. The current bands system works well, I would just increase the percentage taxed on the higher bands and reduce it on the lower bands


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Old August 24th, 2016, 08:34 AM   #12
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Do you think it is fair to tax the richest the same the poorest that struggle to afford food?
The poor get welfare and higher levels of tax subsidies (EITC etc.).

The fact that the income tax schedule is flat does not mean that the poor are subject to the same level of overall taxation nonetheless.

---

Though - the central point - is that even if a specific tax proposal seems 'unfair' it can encourage a net positive distribution of recourses in the grander scheme of things.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"

Last edited by Vlerchan; August 24th, 2016 at 08:37 AM.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 10:25 AM   #13
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Do you think it is fair to tax the richest the same the poorest that struggle to afford food?
I think it is fair to tax them the same percentage, yes.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 02:07 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
I think it is fair to tax them the same percentage, yes.
The rich also have the first 11k tax free and then the nest 33k at 20% etc ect so I think it is fair.

Even if you think it is unfair, socially it is more fair. It will make the poor less disadvantaged.
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Though - the central point - is that even if a specific tax proposal seems 'unfair' it can encourage a net positive distribution of recourses in the grander scheme of things.
How would it? Surely taxing the rich more and poor more will reduce income inequality more? I think a flat rate would increase the income inequality which is why it is so popular with the right wing.


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Old August 24th, 2016, 02:14 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Flapjack View Post
How would it? Surely taxing the rich more and poor more will reduce income inequality more? I think a flat rate would increase the income inequality which is why it is so popular with the right wing.
Everyone should totally pay the same tax. It's already crazy there is such a high tax on the lottery. But why should people who worked hard for their money have to be punished?

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Old August 24th, 2016, 02:39 PM   #16
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Everyone should totally pay the same tax. It's already crazy there is such a high tax on the lottery. But why should people who worked hard for their money have to be punished?
They're not being punished, they're paying a fair share and it is hardly difficult for them. There are hard working mothers that can't feed their children. They need the money more.


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Old August 24th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Flapjack
How would it?
Because the options available to government when it comes to taxation and redistribution consist of more than just the income tax. Flattening the taxation schedule spurs on wealth creation. There are other options available to government to then tax and redistribute this wealth which - on net - aren't going to undermine the wealth creation process to the same extent as progressive taxation.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old August 24th, 2016, 02:48 PM   #18
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The rich also have the first 11k tax free and then the nest 33k at 20% etc ect so I think it is fair.
I am not familiar with British taxation laws and rates. I don't think that is the point here anyways. I agree that the rich shouldn't get tax breaks, but I think the best way to do that is equalizing tax rates.
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They're not being punished, they're paying a fair share and it is hardly difficult for them. There are hard working mothers that can't feed their children. They need the money more.
By your logic, you should share your house with a poor family. It wouldn't be too difficult to let them have a few rooms, and it works towards the greater good of the community. They would need that extra room more than you.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 03:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
Because the options available to government when it comes to taxation and redistribution consist of more than just the income tax. Flattening the taxation schedule spurs on wealth creation. There are other options available to government to then tax and redistribute this wealth which - on net - aren't going to undermine the wealth creation process to the same extent as progressive taxation.
How does progressive tax undermine wealth creation?

How would a government get money away from the rich if there is a flat tax?
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By your logic, you should share your house with a poor family. It wouldn't be too difficult to let them have a few rooms, and it works towards the greater good of the community. They would need that extra room more than you.
No that is not by my logic at all. I would personally be fine with it if a poor family asked me but I think a line has been crossed between taking more of the riches vast amount of money to give to those disadvantaged and starving and putting strangers in people's homes.

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This is to @PlasmaHam @Vlerchan @twentyonehorizons @Drewboyy and anyone else that is interested.

I am all for reducing tax on everyone, this can be done by increasing corporation tax and the capital gains tax.

I know there are cons to the progressive tax like bracket creeping but I support it because:

  • It shifts the tax burden to those most able to pay
  • Protects the tax payer at hard times as when your income goes down, so does your tax.
  • Governments can get more revenue from a progressive tax system (this is contested)


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Old August 24th, 2016, 04:09 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Flapjack
How does progressive tax undermine wealth creation?
There's a wealth of literature I can link to on this topic if you want.

But in the simplest terms, progressive taxation disincentivises the taking an extra hour of work. This effect - most importantly - increases as income rises, as the average tax rate increases with each hour worked*. The added problem here, is that the most productive workers are the harshest affected, because the most productive workers have the highest scaling average tax rate.

Wealth-production is constrained as a result.

---

* The average taxation rate is different to the marginal rate. The marginal rate is the headline rate paid on the next euro of income - so, in Ireland, those earning over 33,000 are taxed at a rate of 42% before PRSI and USC are tagged on. The average rate though, is what, over average, is paid on each euro of the 33,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flapjack
How would a government get money away from the rich if there is a flat tax?
I prefer Land-value taxation and a progressive tax on consumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flapjack
[...] increasing corporation tax [...]
I discussed the opposition I had with this in the Who do you support thread, if you missed it. Other than [1] being regressive, insofar as bigger firms are much more capable of avoiding it, [2] acting as a disincentive to capital investment, which hurts output and wage growth, [3]: the incidence of taxation being levied on labour, or:
Our central estimate is that the long run elasticity of the wage bill with respect to taxation is -0.093. Evaluated at the mean, this implies that an exogenous rise of $1 in tax would reduce the wage bill by 49 cents. We find only weak evidence of a difference for multinational companies.

Arulampalam, Devereux and Maffini (2010)

Using cross-country data I estimate that a ten percentage point increase in the corporate tax rate of high-income countries reduces mean annual gross wages by seven percent. The results do not support the common belief that the burden of corporate taxes falls most heavily on skilled labor; corporate taxation appears to reduce the wages of low-skill and high-skill workers to the same degree.

Felix (2007)

Controlling for observable worker characteristics, a one percent lower state tax rate is associated with a 0.36 percent higher union wage premium, suggesting that workers in a fully unionized firm capture roughly 54 percent of the benefits of low tax rates.

Felix and Hines (2009)

Consistent with our theoretical model, we find a negative effect of corporate taxation on wages: a 1 euro increase in tax liabilities yields a 77 cent decrease in the wage bill [...] ge effect through reduced investment is empirically small due to regional labor mobility. High and medium-skilled workers, who arguably extract higher rents in collective agreements [this is a German-thing, inapplicable to the U.S.], bear a larger share of the corporate tax burden.

Faust, Peichl and Siegloch (2013)
Here's a non-technical piece that discusses the issue with considerable clarity.
Between 1977 and 1991, a one-percentage-point increase in the state corporate tax rate reduced wages 0.27 percent, on average. In comparison, from 1992 to 2005, a one-percentage-point increase in the state corporate tax rate decreased wages 0.52 percent, on average. This jump may be due in part to increasing global competition.

Felix (2009)
I am also not claiming that the empirical work is airtight. But if we are going to decide on policy, I am sure you would agree, it should be done along lines of the academic literature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flapjack
capital gains tax
Undermines investment, which in turn undermines output and wage growth.

There's more intelligent ways to tax, frankly.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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