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View Poll Results: Are You Cut ot Un-Cut?
Cut (Circumsized) 2,826 51.16%
Un-Cut (Not Circumsized) 2,698 48.84%
Voters: 5524. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 26th, 2007, 07:36 PM   #41
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Old September 26th, 2007, 07:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Groszewski View Post
Again: If it all comes down to just skin, why fix something that's not broken.

It's not so much the removed foreskin, but why was my right of choice not enforced? There's no point in arguing about the removal of foreskin, it's already happened and can't be reversed-no point in arguing about it, but What I'm really trying to get at is why nobody told me "Okay, we will perform this procedure, but do agree to it?" I know Virtual Teen spans over the world, and I'm American. And as an American citizen (and under general Human Ethics) I am entitled to make my own decisions whether it be for my own personal gain, or to the pitfall of others.
I understand your perspective here, alot of guys talk about the 'choice' issue. But, let's face it. Kids (infants, especially) really don't have much choice. That's why they have parents, to make the important decisions on their behalf, to do what they believe is best for them. Why you cannot accept this, why 'choice' for you is that important, is the real issue. Most guys are pretty happy with what they have, ask yourself why you're not.

Regardless of how 'Shady' things might be in your neck of the woods, the idea that this was done to you in some kind of a sneaky, underhanded fashion, without the full consent of your folks is really preposterous. Again, ask yourself why you choose to believe this, try to understand what this says about you.

There are benefits to being cut, benefits to being uncut. But there is no diff in pleasure, so why guys get so worked up over this (while most don't) is really the issue.
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Old September 26th, 2007, 08:16 PM   #43
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Old September 26th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #44
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I don't see what's offensive about what Groszewski is saying. Parents aren't perfect. They may assume that something is obligatory when it's not. Ninety percent of parents in the 1970s circumcised their children. If you think all of them did it with full education and after researching the pros and cons, you're a lot more generous about the average person's medical education than I am. Some parents don't give it a second thought. I think that's disappointing. If you're permanently modifying a part of the anatomy that might be missed, you should really have a higher standard than "he'll look like dad" or "I met a nurse who said she heard it was healthier."

IAMSAM, although I respect your opinion and all, anecdotal evidence isn't exactly scientifically great. The theory of circumcision-related sensitivity loss relates to keratinization. The glans becomes hard and tougher with gradual exposure. That means gradual; in other words, it would likely be so gradual that you wouldn't notice much, and it would take years to show full effect anyway. There are studies with conflicting results on sensitivity. Some say it makes no difference to the glans sensitivity. There's pretty wide agreement that the foreskin itself is sensitive. Whether being uncircumcised makes for more pleasure is unclear. I don't really bother arguing which is superior or inferior, because I don't honestly care. It's individual preference (you said it yourself). I think that choice is the more important matter. Be thankful that you had it. That's all I'm saying.

I think people should try to be happy with what they have. But if someone feels that they should have had the choice over their body, I can't blame them. I personally agree that it should be a choice. Since when does disagreeing with a parental choice mean you think your parents are sadistic jerks who wanted to hurt you? It doesn't. There is a reason that, along with the advent of the Internet, the rates have fallen below 60% (and to about 25% on the West Coast), and it's been abandoned most everywhere outside of the U.S. Questioning tradition is a part of maturity. That's why our parents encouraged us to think.

dolphus.

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Old September 27th, 2007, 03:35 PM   #45
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Old September 27th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dolphus Raymond View Post
I don't see what's offensive about what Groszewski is saying. Parents aren't perfect. They may assume that something is obligatory when it's not. Ninety percent of parents in the 1970s circumcised their children. If you think all of them did it with full education and after researching the pros and cons, you're a lot more generous about the average person's medical education than I am. Some parents don't give it a second thought. I think that's disappointing. If you're permanently modifying a part of the anatomy that might be missed, you should really have a higher standard than "he'll look like dad" or "I met a nurse who said she heard it was healthier."

IAMSAM, although I respect your opinion and all, anecdotal evidence isn't exactly scientifically great. The theory of circumcision-related sensitivity loss relates to keratinization. The glans becomes hard and tougher with gradual exposure. That means gradual; in other words, it would likely be so gradual that you wouldn't notice much, and it would take years to show full effect anyway. There are studies with conflicting results on sensitivity. Some say it makes no difference to the glans sensitivity. There's pretty wide agreement that the foreskin itself is sensitive. Whether being uncircumcised makes for more pleasure is unclear. I don't really bother arguing which is superior or inferior, because I don't honestly care. It's individual preference (you said it yourself). I think that choice is the more important matter. Be thankful that you had it. That's all I'm saying.

I think people should try to be happy with what they have. But if someone feels that they should have had the choice over their body, I can't blame them. I personally agree that it should be a choice. Since when does disagreeing with a parental choice mean you think your parents are sadistic jerks who wanted to hurt you? It doesn't. There is a reason that, along with the advent of the Internet, the rates have fallen below 60% (and to about 25% on the West Coast), and it's been abandoned most everywhere outside of the U.S. Questioning tradition is a part of maturity. That's why our parents encouraged us to think.
I think the issue that's been raised isn't so much the perceived value of circ Vs. foreskin (or the other way around), but rather the issue of 'choice'. I think people have issues with 'choice' either because they have a larger problem with authority/control/trust, so their emotional issue gets inextricably associated with their penis, or they have been led to think that a bad choice was made for them, and that as a result they are missing out on something (in this case, penile nirvana). The implicit message being that if you could, you would have (or should have) made a different choice (i.e. keep your foreskin).This comes from the anti circ crowd, who, for whatever reasons, have taken a take-no-prisoners approach to their goal of reducing the number of circ's by whatever means possible, including the fearsome 'loss of sensitivity/pleasure' argument that you duplicitiously added to your post, while simultaneously stating that you don't bother arguing or that you honestly don't care. The problem with these tactics, besides the clear hypocracy, dishonesty and selfishness that they embody, is that in order win converts to your side (i.e. to get guys to not want to circ their future sons), you have to devastate them first by making them feel permanently damaged. The goal here isn't 'education' or enlightenment. It's change. There isn't much room in the argument for those with a differing opinion, there's little tolerance for differeing experiences. It's laughable that the anti circ side actually uses the 'choice' argument, as they are so unwilling to acknowledge the validity of a choice other than their own. Your dismissing my experience, simply because you find it 'inconvienent' and not supporting your opinion bears this out. Unfortunately, you also close your mind and miss an important opportunity to learn in the process. This does not make you a credible source of information.

This idea that doctors make mistakes, that they are 'biased', that 'people don't give things the scientific weight they deserve' again, appeals to raw emotion, but it's simply not supported by the facts. I live with 2 generations of doctors on both sides of the family, and doctors get to be that way with lots of training and education and experience. They do not care what behaviors or habits you engage in, they are not judgemental or opinionated, they are just there to provide answers and offer options based on all that training and experience. What you do when you leave their office is really up to you. They do not have a personal emotional investment in your decision, their responsibility is to provide info. Newborns aren't/weren't being secreted away without parental consent for the snip. What I've come to understand is that all those health benefits of circ that were found to be true in the mid 20th century (when it became routine) are still true today, no one has debunked them. However, those reasons seem less important today to many people, I'd like to think that's the reason the rate is dropping, not that parents don't take the time to do the research. It's impossible to know what your son might feel many years later or what he might want, so parents probably make the decision based on their own experience. You make this seem ignorant. It's not, just human nature. And, although you'd have us believe that only those who leave their son's with foreskin are enlightened, I'm sure that the same decision making process is used on both sides. So, 'Choice' isn't a valid argument here because whatever was decided, a choice was made. Because you either agree with the choice, or feel like the beneficiary doesn't take away from the simple fact the choice was made for you, and that undoing that choice would be very painful, indeed. I do not feel 'fortunate' because my parents left my foreskin attached. It frankly turned out not to be worth the bother.

Lastly, let me say that i am neither an expert on the subject of circ, nor do i want to get into endless debate over it. I enjoyed my foreskin, but not so much because it was 'better' that it is now (it's really not), but because it was a part of me, of my penis. However, because I generally feel good about myself and who i am, I am sure that no matter what 'choice' my parents made for me at birth i'd be AOK with it now (as most guys are). You (and the anti circ crowd) would do well to ask yourselves why, even with foreskin, you spend so much of your time and energy defending it. Instead of trying to feel better about something else with these circ arguments, why not spend the time addressing what it is that's really making you unhappy. Making others needlessly unhappy cannot possibly serve any constructive purpose.
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Old September 27th, 2007, 10:05 PM   #47
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Well, here we go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
I think the issue that's been raised isn't so much the perceived value of circ Vs. foreskin (or the other way around), but rather the issue of 'choice'. I think people have issues with 'choice' either because they have a larger problem with authority/control/trust, so their emotional issue gets inextricably associated with their penis, or they have been led to think that a bad choice was made for them, and that as a result they are missing out on something (in this case, penile nirvana). The implicit message being that if you could, you would have (or should have) made a different choice (i.e. keep your foreskin).
I can't really defend people who are elevating uncircumcisedness to "penile nirvana." But you're veering dangerously toward strawman territory, here. I don't think people think they are missing on "penile nirvana." As moderator at GovTeen, I've spoken to a lot of people who are upset about having been circumcised. Very few of them think that. It's more practical. They want the gliding action. They don't like the tightness of the circumcision. They don't hate being circumcised, but faced with the information, they strongly believe it should have been their choice.

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This comes from the anti circ crowd, who, for whatever reasons, have taken a take-no-prisoners approach to their goal of reducing the number of circ's by whatever means possible, including the fearsome 'loss of sensitivity/pleasure' argument that you duplicitiously added to your post, while simultaneously stating that you don't bother arguing or that you honestly don't care. The problem with these tactics, besides the clear hypocracy, dishonesty and selfishness that they embody, is that in order win converts to your side (i.e. to get guys to not want to circ their future sons), you have to devastate them first by making them feel permanently damaged.
Woah, hold back there. I said that there is conflicted evidence about whether circumcision reduces sensitivity. The foreskin has nerve endings...it's skin. Some studies indicate it has erogenous properties. You don't know me, so I'm going to give you credit here. The last thing I want to do is make people feel like crap.

I do want people not to circumcise their children, yeah. I'm straight-up about that. But I do not want people to feel mutilated. I'm not a zealot and I'm not a jerk. I'm kind of hurt that you assume that. Yes, I want to convince them that it was wrong to do. But, yes, I also think it's pretty trivial. But just because it is trivial does not mean it should continue.

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The goal here isn't 'education' or enlightenment. It's change. There isn't much room in the argument for those with a differing opinion, there's little tolerance for differeing experiences. It's laughable that the anti circ side actually uses the 'choice' argument, as they are so unwilling to acknowledge the validity of a choice other than their own. Your dismissing my experience, simply because you find it 'inconvienent' and not supporting your opinion bears this out. Unfortunately, you also close your mind and miss an important opportunity to learn in the process. This does not make you a credible source of information.
Could you please stop imposing anti-circumcision zealots' views over mine? Read what I said again. I don't trust anecdotal evidence from either side when it comes to sensitivity. I'd just as quickly devalue comments from people who have restored their foreskin and find the sensitivity much better. It's anecdotal! No scientist accepts anecdotal evidence when empirical evidence is available. Especially when anecdotal evidence is coming from only one person.

That's scientific procedure 101. I'm pretty sure you know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
This idea that doctors make mistakes, that they are 'biased', that 'people don't give things the scientific weight they deserve' again, appeals to raw emotion, but it's simply not supported by the facts. I live with 2 generations of doctors on both sides of the family, and doctors get to be that way with lots of training and education and experience. They do not care what behaviors or habits you engage in, they are not judgemental or opinionated, they are just there to provide answers and offer options based on all that training and experience. What you do when you leave their office is really up to you. They do not have a personal emotional investment in your decision, their responsibility is to provide info.
Are you really arguing that doctors don't make mistakes or have personal biases on issues? They're humans. Of course they can, and they do. I'm not supporting the earlier comment about some mass attempt to circumcise children without their parents' permission. I'm really not crazy. Honestly! I promise.

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Newborns aren't/weren't being secreted away without parental consent for the snip. What I've come to understand is that all those health benefits of circ that were found to be true in the mid 20th century (when it became routine) are still true today, no one has debunked them. However, those reasons seem less important today to many people, I'd like to think that's the reason the rate is dropping, not that parents don't take the time to do the research. It's impossible to know what your son might feel many years later or what he might want, so parents probably make the decision based on their own experience. You make this seem ignorant. It's not, just human nature.
Does dad preferring being circumcised make the son more likely to prefer it too in any way? No. And if it's impossible to know, give him the own choice.

You're confusing me with the "uncircumcised is better" crowd. I'm the "neither is inherently better; give them a choice" crowd. I said as much.

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And, although you'd have us believe that only those who leave their son's with foreskin are enlightened, I'm sure that the same decision making process is used on both sides.
God no. A lot of the drop in rates is Hispanics, who probably make an equally uneducated decision about it. I'm not meaning to imply any such thing. If I did, I shouldn't have.

[Edit: At least they might on average, considering how hard bilingual medical information on stuff like that is to find. I assume most just go with "tradition." Even though I think that ends up at the right choice, I think the thoughtlessness is no better. I didn't mean to say that all Hispanics are medically uneducated, of course.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAMSAM View Post
So, 'Choice' isn't a valid argument here because whatever was decided, a choice was made. Because you either agree with the choice, or feel like the beneficiary doesn't take away from the simple fact the choice was made for you, and that undoing that choice would be very painful, indeed. I do not feel 'fortunate' because my parents left my foreskin attached. It frankly turned out not to be worth the bother.
But if you had no ability to get circumcised, and had to say as you were - unhappy - would you feel the same way?

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Lastly, let me say that i am neither an expert on the subject of circ, nor do i want to get into endless debate over it. I enjoyed my foreskin, but not so much because it was 'better' that it is now (it's really not), but because it was a part of me, of my penis. However, because I generally feel good about myself and who i am, I am sure that no matter what 'choice' my parents made for me at birth i'd be AOK with it now (as most guys are). You (and the anti circ crowd) would do well to ask yourselves why, even with foreskin, you spend so much of your time and energy defending it. Instead of trying to feel better about something else with these circ arguments, why not spend the time addressing what it is that's really making you unhappy. Making others needlessly unhappy cannot possibly serve any constructive purpose.
I'm...really not unhappy. At all. Medicine and ethics both fascinate me. They merge, here. I don't care about this because I want people to look like me, or because I feel threatened by being in the minority. I'm sure plenty of anti-circ people feel that way. Plenty of people on the pro- and anti- sides freak me the hell out. I'm not one of those people. You should have the good grace not to make that assumption.

I'm not implying you're psychologically unstable because you're disagreeing with me. It would be kind of nice to get the same in return.

dolphus.

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Old September 27th, 2007, 10:41 PM   #48
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Thanks for proving everything I've said about the anti -circ movement! It's too bad you cannot see that what you've just written indicates a complete lack of understanding of what I've said, but more importantly, is incredibly hostile and one sided, and can be both frightening and hurtful to some.
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Old September 27th, 2007, 10:50 PM   #49
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I re-read my post three times. I don't think I was being hostile at all. And "frightening" and "hurtful" how?

You accused me of intentionally making people feel bad about their bodies just to "win" an argument. I said I didn't appreciate that. That's the only remotely "hostile" thing I said. I can't see how anything approaches "frightening" or "hurtful."

If I misunderstood you, please show me how instead of dismissing me. If I'm being logically one-sided, please show me where. I'm not a member of the "anti-circ" movement. Let's treat each other as individuals, not members of some giant shadow group. OK?

dolphus.

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Old September 27th, 2007, 11:00 PM   #50
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I feel that guys here are beating a dead horse with a stick. Everyone's morals are going to be different and what one may consider right may be wrong for the other. Everyone can have the oppurtunity to look at the objective facts and come to their own conclusions. I feel that at the end of the day this is just a piece of skin on a penis and circumcision or not will have minor effect on the kids life.

No one can "win" this argument because it's all subjective with personal preference and morals.
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Old September 27th, 2007, 11:08 PM   #51
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Probably true. But if we had to only have arguments with objective solutions, the internet would collapse in on itself or something.

It's minor (although I wouldn't exactly call it "just a piece of skin") for most people, but I think it's worth questioning anything done automatically to millions of people that they may resent (even if most of them won't). It's just nice to get people thinking about it, even if they end up disagreeing with me. (But start a debate up on vaccination or something and we'll probably be on the same side, SAM. I'll write hyper-long posts agreeing with you! It'll be a party.)

I still don't think I was a jerk at all, but you seem sane and quite reasonable in all of the other topics I've seen you in, so I owe you the benefit of the doubt.

Friends?

dolphus.

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Old September 27th, 2007, 11:16 PM   #52
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I feel that guys here are beating a dead horse with a stick. Everyone's morals are going to be different and what one may consider right may be wrong for the other. Everyone can have the oppurtunity to look at the objective facts and come to their own conclusions. I feel that at the end of the day this is just a piece of skin on a penis and circumcision or not will have minor effect on the kids life.

No one can "win" this argument because it's all subjective with personal preference and morals.

You know, Anthony, I really like this place so much because it is so well run. The goal really is to provide info and support and comfort, and those in charge facilitate that by keeping things level and under control, and that people dont get carried away with their own agenda. And as always, you're correct here, and you're keeping a watchful eye out for the young 'uns.

However, the issue here isn't so much about morality, it's about respect, specifically, the right that people have to come online and not get frigtenened or intimidated or otherwise bullied into believing things that aren't necessarily true. Or worse, to question themselves in the most personal ways. We all have opinions about things, everything, actually. But that isn't a license to share them at the expense of someone elses feelings.

I'm going to stop now.
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Old September 27th, 2007, 11:23 PM   #53
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I'm sorry, I seem to have missed the post where I said that if you support circumcision, I'll run over your dog.

Frightened? Intimidated? Bullied? Where is this coming from? Are all of my emotions showing up as knives? If not, you must really, really be misunderstanding something I said. Because there's no way I've said anything "intimidating."

dolphus.

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Old September 27th, 2007, 11:24 PM   #54
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Lets not start this again! Please!!! Argh! Let it end!!!
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Old September 28th, 2007, 12:46 PM   #55
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Old September 28th, 2007, 01:49 PM   #56
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I don't think anyone here is mentioning mutilation. There are certainly extremists, some of them out to hurt feelings, but I'm not one of them. I just want to make that very clear.

dolphus.

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Old September 28th, 2007, 02:22 PM   #57
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Old September 28th, 2007, 04:36 PM   #58
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Quote:
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I feel that guys here are beating a dead horse with a stick. Everyone's morals are going to be different and what one may consider right may be wrong for the other. Everyone can have the oppurtunity to look at the objective facts and come to their own conclusions. I feel that at the end of the day this is just a piece of skin on a penis and circumcision or not will have minor effect on the kids life.

No one can "win" this argument because it's all subjective with personal preference and morals.
Indeed. I think you guys really need to just agree to disagree and let it go, it's never going to end.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 05:55 PM   #59
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I agree with above post Let it die!!!
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Old September 28th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #60
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Agreed. Please take anymore heated discussion of this to the debate forum Thanks.
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