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Old May 27th, 2019, 12:12 PM   #41
Snowfox
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Originally Posted by LiberalTurboprop View Post
Let me guess, is it because they allow things like gay marriage and allow some brown people to immigrate into the country?
It has absolutelly nothing to do with gays or skincolor. I dont judge people based on their colour or lack of it. Or by their sexual things.
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Old May 27th, 2019, 12:14 PM   #42
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Hes a troll dont waste your time with him
And you are either a troll or an asshole so why would anyone waste time on you.

You say that I am troll which I am not without ever daring to point anything out to prove it.
You are afraid of discussion.
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Old May 27th, 2019, 11:23 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Its not a secret society. Its the military industrial complex bribing US politicians. That's no conspiracy we all know US politicians are corrupt, some of them openly and proudly say it.
1. I thought this was about the Secret Society of Oil Barons? Now you are talking about the Secret Society of American Military Industrial Complexes? How many secret societies are there? Is there a Secret Society of Secret Societies keeping a secret list of these secret societies secret from society at large? Sounds secretive.

2. Your posts needs a slight correction:
"...all know *politicians in general* are corrupt".

Which is why Americans voted in a non-politician over a career politician in 2016. But I guess you wouldn't understand, the Trudeau dynasty is strong up moose land...
Quote:
Iran wants to make nuclear weapons for the same reason why North Korea made nuclear weapons. They don't want to end up like Iraq or Libya. This wouldn't be happening if Trump had kept Obama's Iran deal. They were compliant they no reason to leave the deal, except that since they were compiling the US had no reason to invade.
Oh yeah nuclear deals worked great in North Korea. They totally didn't secretly develop nukes after signing deals to prevent nuclear proliferation and denucularization of the Korean Peninsula.

I sometimes wonder if you base all your arguments on how you can construe this into some Trump/US blame game, instead of actual logic. Here's the deal. North Korea has had a nuclear weapon program likely since the 80s. Iran has likely been pursuing nuclear weapons since the 90's, given leaked info by dissidents and the Israelis; before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and long before Libya. Since then the Iranians have claimed many times that it doesn't exist or that its only for civilian energy, yet reports have constantly presented evidence to the contrary. Using logic and historical reference, it's easy to see that the Iranians want nuclear weapons to use as political bargaining chips. Anyone who knows anything about modern history knows the US gets a lot more skiddish when it comes to provoking a nuclear power. Trump has seemingly been more confrontational, but in general most presidents are willing to give a lot more leeway to nuclear powers than non. Given Iranian ambitions of essentially a new Ottoman Empire, one which specifically calls out for the conquest of Israel, they're going to need to advance themselves to a legitimate player on the global stage. Iran doesn't have the manpower nor the economy to easily do that, but it can get one thing, nuclear weapons. Just imagine how much more skiddish the US will be if a nuclear Iran attacked US allies like Turkey or Israel, vs if a non-nuclear Iraq did? Nowadays any expansionist power wants nukes. Not to deter a random invasion, but as leverage for pursing its expansionist dreams.

Last edited by PlasmaHam; May 28th, 2019 at 12:23 AM.
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Old May 28th, 2019, 04:42 AM   #44
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1. I thought this was about the Secret Society of Oil Barons? Now you are talking about the Secret Society of American Military Industrial Complexes?
It's disingenuous to talk about them as secret societies. The oil industry and defence industry are absolutely involved in politics, through lobbying. The oil industry has tried to downplay climate change and has lobbied against action against climate policy for years. The Koch Brothers - billionaires involved in the oil industry - have donated to conservative and libertarian think tanks for years and donated to Republican candidates. Former Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson was the Secretary of State. And you're a bit naive if you think the defence industry doesn't lobby against plans to ban sales to countries and cuts to military programs.

Are they powerful enough to send the US into a major war? No. And the Iraq War wasn't about oil. But they still wield a significant amount of power over areas of government policy.

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"...all know *politicians in general* are corrupt".

Which is why Americans voted in a non-politician over a career politician in 2016.
And they were moronic because they voted in a billionaire with shady business dealings. And the politician vs. non-politican was a part of why Trump was elected but there were more important factors: Trump's anti-immigration stance (and, let's be honest, racial dogwhistling) towards a part of the Republican base and Republicans' willingness to line up and vote for someone with an R next to their name no matter their reservations (because, hey, abortions and a Supreme Court seat).

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Oh yeah nuclear deals worked great in North Korea. They totally didn't secretly develop nukes after signing deals to prevent nuclear proliferation and denucularization of the Korean Peninsula.
North Korea and Iran are not the same situation. North Korea didn't have as extensive a deal with as much oversight as Iran. Iran also has much to gain from the lifting of sanctions so has a good incentive not to break the deal. North Korea has shown no real intentions of wanting to liberalise trade.

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Here's the deal. North Korea has had a nuclear weapon program likely since the 80s. Iran has likely been pursuing nuclear weapons since the 90's, given leaked info by dissidents and the Israelis; before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and long before Libya. Since then the Iranians have claimed many times that it doesn't exist or that its only for civilian energy, yet reports have constantly presented evidence to the contrary.
Broadly true. Though maintaining a public presence of only using nuclear energy while building weapons is hardly unusual - Israel does the same thing. It's convenient from a diplomatic standpoint if you don't go around yelling that you're proliferating nukes even if everyone knows you are.

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Using logic and historical reference, it's easy to see that the Iranians want nuclear weapons to use as political bargaining chips. Anyone who knows anything about modern history knows the US gets a lot more skiddish when it comes to provoking a nuclear power. Trump has seemingly been more confrontational, but in general most presidents are willing to give a lot more leeway to nuclear powers than non.
The US does indeed treat people with nuclear weapons differently than those without because that's just logical. Though the Iranian's desire for nuclear weapons has a lot to do with their regional rivalry with Saudi Arabia rather than merely being US-centric. The Iraq War intensified the desire of certain regimes to develop nuclear weapons however.

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Given Iranian ambitions of essentially a new Ottoman Empire, one which specifically calls out for the conquest of Israel, they're going to need to advance themselves to a legitimate player on the global stage. Iran doesn't have the manpower nor the economy to easily do that, but it can get one thing, nuclear weapons. Just imagine how much more skiddish the US will be if a nuclear Iran attacked US allies like Turkey or Israel, vs if a non-nuclear Iraq did? Nowadays any expansionist power wants nukes. Not to deter a random invasion, but as leverage for pursing its expansionist dreams.
Very doubtful there. Iran doesn't want to expand out and conquer more territory a la Russia but to install friendlier regimes across the region. It's main rival is Saudi Arabia who is doing the same thing but from the opposite perspective. And the Trump Administration's actions of supporting Saudi Arabia in their regional conflicts to secure their influence rather than Iran's by selling them weapons, overlooking their murder of Khashoggi and talking of selling them nuclear reactors is not the correct perspective on things. Iran's conflict is more with Saudi Arabia than the US. Cutting a more neutral stance on Iran and Saudi Arabia (stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, lift sanctions on Iran and grant them other concessions in exchange for dismantling their nuclear program) and focusing on installing pro-US or at least semi-democratic regimes in unstable countries would be the best for de-escalation in the Middle East. US policy should focus on pulling countries out of the regional rivalry, creating economic and political ties to the US on both sides and denuclearising the situation with military power reserved as a threat for nuclearisation. Because, right now the US is just fighting Saudi Arabia's war.
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Old May 28th, 2019, 08:54 AM   #45
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It's disingenuous to talk about them as secret societies. The oil industry and defence industry are absolutely involved in politics, through lobbying. The oil industry has tried to downplay climate change and has lobbied against action against climate policy for years. The Koch Brothers - billionaires involved in the oil industry - have donated to conservative and libertarian think tanks for years and donated to Republican candidates. Former Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson was the Secretary of State. And you're a bit naive if you think the defence industry doesn't lobby against plans to ban sales to countries and cuts to military programs.

Are they powerful enough to send the US into a major war? No. And the Iraq War wasn't about oil. But they still wield a significant amount of power over areas of government policy.
Sure, lobbying is a thing from all sides. Many people don't realize that unions, not big business, actually spend the majority when it comes to lobbying, but that's a discussion for another day. Here I was simply decrying MattSmith's repeated insistence that all US foreign policy for decades has been based around accessing and protecting oil. That does seem kinda silly doesn't it, that there's basically a cabal guiding the US government, forcing it into wars just so we can get access to oil? You're new around here, so I would understand why you didn't pickup on the 100th-some-odd use of the "Iraq/Venezuela/Saudi Arabia is all about oil" line.

@mattsmith48, I'm still looking forward to your explanation of how the US is going to provoke an war over oil with Canada once we're done with Venezuela. The Secret Society of Oil Barons is never satisfied!
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And they were moronic because they voted in a billionaire with shady business dealings. And the politician vs. non-politican was a part of why Trump was elected but there were more important factors: Trump's anti-immigration stance (and, let's be honest, racial dogwhistling) towards a part of the Republican base and Republicans' willingness to line up and vote for someone with an R next to their name no matter their reservations (because, hey, abortions and a Supreme Court seat).
I'll admit that Trump was not high on my list of Republican nominees. But despite some of his failings, so far I'm certain his presidency would have been better for conservatives than a Clinton presidency.
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North Korea and Iran are not the same situation. North Korea didn't have as extensive a deal with as much oversight as Iran. Iran also has much to gain from the lifting of sanctions so has a good incentive not to break the deal. North Korea has shown no real intentions of wanting to liberalise trade.
Of course I understand that. But again MattSmith listed North Korea and Iran as wanting nukes for the exact same reason (as a response to Iraq/Libya style regime changes), so a little sarcastic remark seemed reasonable. I'll admit that I'm not an expert in foreign policy, and don't have the time to research it, so I'm not going to try and argue with the rest of your post, but my point is clear. The idea that nuclear proliferation is linked directly to modern US involvement in the Middle East is laughable. I'm sorry but you can't blame everything on George Bush.

Last edited by PlasmaHam; May 28th, 2019 at 09:02 AM.
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Old May 28th, 2019, 10:31 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
1. I thought this was about the Secret Society of Oil Barons? Now you are talking about the Secret Society of American Military Industrial Complexes? How many secret societies are there? Is there a Secret Society of Secret Societies keeping a secret list of these secret societies secret from society at large? Sounds secretive.

2. Your posts needs a slight correction:
"...all know *politicians in general* are corrupt".

Which is why Americans voted in a non-politician over a career politician in 2016. But I guess you wouldn't understand, the Trudeau dynasty is strong up moose land...

Oh yeah nuclear deals worked great in North Korea. They totally didn't secretly develop nukes after signing deals to prevent nuclear proliferation and denucularization of the Korean Peninsula.

I sometimes wonder if you base all your arguments on how you can construe this into some Trump/US blame game, instead of actual logic. Here's the deal. North Korea has had a nuclear weapon program likely since the 80s. Iran has likely been pursuing nuclear weapons since the 90's, given leaked info by dissidents and the Israelis; before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and long before Libya. Since then the Iranians have claimed many times that it doesn't exist or that its only for civilian energy, yet reports have constantly presented evidence to the contrary. Using logic and historical reference, it's easy to see that the Iranians want nuclear weapons to use as political bargaining chips. Anyone who knows anything about modern history knows the US gets a lot more skiddish when it comes to provoking a nuclear power. Trump has seemingly been more confrontational, but in general most presidents are willing to give a lot more leeway to nuclear powers than non. Given Iranian ambitions of essentially a new Ottoman Empire, one which specifically calls out for the conquest of Israel, they're going to need to advance themselves to a legitimate player on the global stage. Iran doesn't have the manpower nor the economy to easily do that, but it can get one thing, nuclear weapons. Just imagine how much more skiddish the US will be if a nuclear Iran attacked US allies like Turkey or Israel, vs if a non-nuclear Iraq did? Nowadays any expansionist power wants nukes. Not to deter a random invasion, but as leverage for pursing its expansionist dreams.
How much Turkey today is an ally of USA is highly questionable.
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Old May 28th, 2019, 12:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
1. I thought this was about the Secret Society of Oil Barons? Now you are talking about the Secret Society of American Military Industrial Complexes? How many secret societies are there? Is there a Secret Society of Secret Societies keeping a secret list of these secret societies secret from society at large? Sounds secretive.
There is no secret society, that's just non-sense. The thing is in the US bribery of politicians is legal. That lead to big business interest like the MIC or oil barons to give large sums of money in campaign donation in exchange of some favourable legislation. That's how you end up with all those oil/regime change wars.

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2. Your posts needs a slight correction:
"...all know *politicians in general* are corrupt".

Which is why Americans voted in a non-politician over a career politician in 2016.
They also voted for him because he ran to the left of Clinton on war and trade.

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But I guess you wouldn't understand, the Trudeau dynasty is strong up moose land...
Never liked him, even in 2015 I knew he was full of shit. If I could have voted in that election I would've still voted for the Greens.

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Oh yeah nuclear deals worked great in North Korea. They totally didn't secretly develop nukes after signing deals to prevent nuclear proliferation and denucularization of the Korean Peninsula.

I sometimes wonder if you base all your arguments on how you can construe this into some Trump/US blame game, instead of actual logic. Here's the deal. North Korea has had a nuclear weapon program likely since the 80s. Iran has likely been pursuing nuclear weapons since the 90's, given leaked info by dissidents and the Israelis; before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and long before Libya. Since then the Iranians have claimed many times that it doesn't exist or that its only for civilian energy, yet reports have constantly presented evidence to the contrary. Using logic and historical reference, it's easy to see that the Iranians want nuclear weapons to use as political bargaining chips. Anyone who knows anything about modern history knows the US gets a lot more skiddish when it comes to provoking a nuclear power. Trump has seemingly been more confrontational, but in general most presidents are willing to give a lot more leeway to nuclear powers than non. Given Iranian ambitions of essentially a new Ottoman Empire, one which specifically calls out for the conquest of Israel, they're going to need to advance themselves to a legitimate player on the global stage. Iran doesn't have the manpower nor the economy to easily do that, but it can get one thing, nuclear weapons. Just imagine how much more skiddish the US will be if a nuclear Iran attacked US allies like Turkey or Israel, vs if a non-nuclear Iraq did? Nowadays any expansionist power wants nukes. Not to deter a random invasion, but as leverage for pursing its expansionist dreams.
There is no question that the US won't start a regime change war with a nuclear power. Iran was complying with the nuclear deal, they stopped the weapons program, they allowed inspections. They were doing exactly what they were suppose to do and why wouldn't they, as long as they were compliant there wouldn't be any sanctions and there wouldn't be any war with the US. They reason they restarted the nuclear program is because Trump left the nuclear deal. They know the only thing that could protect them long term is if they have nuclear weapons. If Kim Jon Un was making the same threats without the nukes, the US soldiers would have carried his head through the streets of Pyongyang long ago.

Israel is a nuclear power, if they were attacked by a nuclear Iran they would be able to defend themselves. Turkey has US nukes on his territory, if they were attacked the US would easily be able to help them. That being said I find it concerning that the concern you have with a nuclear Iran who is only building those weapons to protect themselves from a regime change war, is potential attacks on a country governed by war criminals and a brutal dictatorship.

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Sure, lobbying is a thing from all sides. Many people don't realize that unions, not big business, actually spend the majority when it comes to lobbying, but that's a discussion for another day. Here I was simply decrying MattSmith's repeated insistence that all US foreign policy for decades has been based around accessing and protecting oil. That does seem kinda silly doesn't it, that there's basically a cabal guiding the US government, forcing it into wars just so we can get access to oil? You're new around here, so I would understand why you didn't pickup on the 100th-some-odd use of the "Iraq/Venezuela/Saudi Arabia is all about oil" line.
Tell me one reason other than taking the control of their oil would the US starve the population with the sanctions, recognise a nobody who didn't run for president as president of Venezuela and get him to try to overthrow the actual elected president of Venezuela? And why him over let's say Erdogan who did the exact thing the US accuse Maduro of doing?

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I'll admit that Trump was not high on my list of Republican nominees. But despite some of his failings, so far I'm certain his presidency would have been better for conservatives than a Clinton presidency.
Of course I understand that. But again MattSmith listed North Korea and Iran as wanting nukes for the exact same reason (as a response to Iraq/Libya style regime changes), so a little sarcastic remark seemed reasonable. I'll admit that I'm not an expert in foreign policy, and don't have the time to research it, so I'm not going to try and argue with the rest of your post, but my point is clear. The idea that nuclear proliferation is linked directly to modern US involvement in the Middle East is laughable. I'm sorry but you can't blame everything on George Bush.
I don't blame everything on Bush, The first Bush, Bill Clinton and Obama also have responsibility into this. With Obama being the worst of the 4.

Regime change wars are not new, the US have been overthrowing governments for decades. Iraq and Libya and what they are trying to do in Syria and Venezuela those are easy example because of how recent they are. But this is not new. Just look at Cuba and how long did they tried to get rid of Castro and install their own puppet.

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 01:35 AM   #48
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Many of them are. Sharia law is currently goal of every muslim in world and also goal of European Union.
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Continental big war in Europe is possible. Since EU is turning itself to another USSR dystopia. Also major changes in europes population will play major role. Most of France and Germany is under Sharia law allready UK while soon out of Union is in same shit. Sweden is allready controlled by Sharia.
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You havent then visited to those areas that are called sharia controlled areas.
There are areas with muslim majority and there patrols sharia police. That sharia police is officially not noticed by state but it practically controls areas by violence and fear. Real police doesnt even bother to go to that area unless they are backed by multiple patrols. Single patrol car would just burn. Same goes to ambulance and firefighters. These no-go areas were originally working class areas with high concentration of immigrants nowadays all locals and all non muslim immigrants have left area. You read right all non muslim immigrants flee from those areas these include in my country (finland) Estonians, Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, South-Americans, Thai etc.
In all practice those areas are states inside of states and you can see ISIS flags waved on shop windows there. Cops dont usually bother to do anything they are told by their superiors to turn blind eye because of political elite mostly supporting those Sharia zones.
All kinds of gang activity is commonplace there including rape gangs who prey white kids living nearby those areas. Officially that doesnt exist so if white girl or boy gets raped police wont take police report of it.
Are you sure you live in the EU? Because these things do not happen in the one where I live...
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Old May 30th, 2019, 02:03 AM   #49
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Are you sure you live in the EU? Because these things do not happen in the one where I live...
I am sadly sure I live in Finland one of worst shitholes in EU.
You must live on rich area. Or you must be blind.
I can give countless of examples in case you want to.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 04:41 AM   #50
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I am sadly sure I live in Finland one of worst shitholes in EU.
You must live on rich area. Or you must be blind.
I can give countless of examples in case you want to.
Ok , you're a troll.
No doubt
I currently study in Germany and there is no area where the sharia is applied, and the application of the islamic law is not a goal of the EU.

By chance you inform yourself on the sites www.fakenewsforeveryone.com or secretglobalplot.org?

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Old May 30th, 2019, 07:49 AM   #51
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They also voted for him because he ran to the left of Clinton on war and trade.
Is opposing free-trade between countries really left? The right and the left wing both seem to agitate for it. And there are countries with much more socialised economies - Nordic countries - which have free trade between them and other nations. Both of the main Australian prime ministers who built up Australia's system of universal healthcare - Gough Whitlam and Bob Hawke (RIP ) - also cut tariffs. Free trade benefits people on low-incomes because they disproportionately consume traded goods so their real income is increased.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 01:50 PM   #52
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Is opposing free-trade between countries really left? The right and the left wing both seem to agitate for it. And there are countries with much more socialised economies - Nordic countries - which have free trade between them and other nations. Both of the main Australian prime ministers who built up Australia's system of universal healthcare - Gough Whitlam and Bob Hawke (RIP ) - also cut tariffs. Free trade benefits people on low-incomes because they disproportionately consume traded goods so their real income is increased.
It depends on what is in the trade deal. NAFTA and TPP were basically big blowjobs to corporate interest. Like the part that says a company can sue a country because they passed regulations that could have the effect of hurting their profit.

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There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 02:24 PM   #53
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Ok , you're a troll.
No doubt
I currently study in Germany and there is no area where the sharia is applied, and the application of the islamic law is not a goal of the EU.

By chance you inform yourself on the sites www.fakenewsforeveryone.com or secretglobalplot.org?
My main infromation comes from right wing news sites. Some are alternative medias some are more traditional. My family and I generally support our only pro freedom party in country PS which is similar to AfP
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Old May 30th, 2019, 02:25 PM   #54
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Ok , you're a troll.
No doubt
I currently study in Germany and there is no area where the sharia is applied, and the application of the islamic law is not a goal of the EU.

By chance you inform yourself on the sites www.fakenewsforeveryone.com or secretglobalplot.org?
Sharia Law in Germany:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.bfadd88a9ae7

Edit: this story was from three days ago.
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Old May 30th, 2019, 02:36 PM   #55
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Sharia Law in Germany:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.bfadd88a9ae7

Edit: this story was from three days ago.
That's no different than any groups trying to impose Christian law. Just look at the US where a major political party is passing anti-LGBTQ and anti-women laws based off their personal religion. That's way more outrageous than a small group passing flyers trying to promote their way of life.

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Old May 31st, 2019, 07:51 AM   #56
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It depends on what is in the trade deal. NAFTA and TPP were basically big blowjobs to corporate interest. Like the part that says a company can sue a country because they passed regulations that could have the effect of hurting their profit.
NAFTA has been a good deal for all 3 countries involved. The TPP would have increased the real incomes of poor people in the US by lowering the cost of goods and give competitive US industries a new market to sell in. It would also have increased the real incomes of workers in other countries as they could better sell goods into the US market. Naturally companies need some way to sue otherwise there wouldn't be a mechanism to enforce the terms of the deal. The deal is naturally giving up some of your ability to implement policy in certain areas in exchange for the same from other countries. Of course, countries can choose not to enter into agreements or agitate so the agreement has exclusions and conditions for certain things but giving up a lowering of trade barriers is something a lot of countries don't want to do, quite rightly too because gains from trade are great.
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Old May 31st, 2019, 11:36 AM   #57
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Sharia Law in Germany:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.bfadd88a9ae7

Edit: this story was from three days ago.
Great, so a bunch of religious assholes took it upon themselves to walk around and hand out leaflets supposedly declaring a Sharia zone not recognised in any legal fashion. I guess all arguments are now refuted.
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Old May 31st, 2019, 01:25 PM   #58
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NAFTA has been a good deal for all 3 countries involved. The TPP would have increased the real incomes of poor people in the US by lowering the cost of goods and give competitive US industries a new market to sell in. It would also have increased the real incomes of workers in other countries as they could better sell goods into the US market. Naturally companies need some way to sue otherwise there wouldn't be a mechanism to enforce the terms of the deal. The deal is naturally giving up some of your ability to implement policy in certain areas in exchange for the same from other countries. Of course, countries can choose not to enter into agreements or agitate so the agreement has exclusions and conditions for certain things but giving up a lowering of trade barriers is something a lot of countries don't want to do, quite rightly too because gains from trade are great.
What those clause do is it makes it more difficult and expansive, and sometimes prevents countries from passing laws and regulations to fight climate change, protect consumers against unsafe and sometimes dangerous products. TPP was negotiated and developed in secret by corporate stooge with no interest in mind other than profit. NAFTA may have lower prices but it cost my country billions in tax payer money to fight lawsuits.

If done properly trade deals can be a good thing, it can help consumers, it can lower prices, it can be used to bring better working conditions in other countries. But it also need to allow countries to protect their citizens and help fight the climate crisis.

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48
There is no such thing as liberal or conservative media, the only thing the media cares about is either money or the truth.
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Old June 1st, 2019, 06:57 PM   #59
PlasmaHam
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Default Re: Another World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
That's no different than any groups trying to impose Christian law...
I know that you aren't much for theology and philosophy beyond your weird obsession with Catholic priests, but one tenant that you might want to learn is that there is no such counterpart to Sharia Law in Christianity. Laws based upon Christian morality, sure those exist, but they aren't a part of some regimented system with its own courts, rituals, and punishments like you see in the other Abrahamic religions. Which is a major difference.

On the side, I would recommend you buy a Bible and review some basics of Christian doctrine, so you can come up with better comebacks than "Pedophile Priests" (which btw, as a Protestant I have very little sympathy for the Catholic Church and priest celibacy, so its not exactly as clever a comeback as you might think).
I'm not being hypocritical by recommending that btw. I have a copy of the Quran I've reviewed so I could develop my own thoughts on the religion rather than depend on being spoon-fed whatever tidbits the media (both Left and Right) wanted me to see.

Last edited by PlasmaHam; June 1st, 2019 at 07:23 PM.
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