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Old June 25th, 2007, 01:05 PM   #21
kolte
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Default Re: Bourgeois and Proletariat

However, communism as it is on paper has not been tried out in the real world. The soviet union and things like that are what we like to call state capatilists, as well as china, vietnam, north korea, and cuba. None of these classify as true communist states, they are just built around macro capatilism.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 25th, 2007, 02:22 PM   #22
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I concur, it has been tried, and those who have tried it have failed at it.
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Old June 25th, 2007, 02:31 PM   #23
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China, Cuba, Vietnam, Africa, I think those show it doesn't as well?

"Come away O human child, to the waters and the wild, with a faery hand in hand, for the worlds more full of weeping, then you can understand" W. B. Yeats
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Old June 25th, 2007, 04:10 PM   #24
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Did you even read what kolte wrote, Trebor?
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However, communism as it is on paper has not been tried out in the real world. The soviet union and things like that are what we like to call state capatilists, as well as china, vietnam, north korea, and cuba. None of these classify as true communist states, they are just built around macro capatilism.
I fully believe that an anarchist communist society is our only choice. Just to state my opinion.
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Old June 25th, 2007, 06:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by unknown(to_myself) View Post
Did you even read what kolte wrote, Trebor?

I fully believe that an anarchist communist society is our only choice. Just to state my opinion.
Contradiction! How would Anarchy mix in with any sort of government anyhow?
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Old June 25th, 2007, 10:25 PM   #26
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anarchist communism is what is also called true communism, the "state" ownership of everything referes to the PEOPLE ownership of everything. There for state is just a fancy word for all the people of a particular region. My signiture is a quote from a famous anarchist communist


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 26th, 2007, 04:10 PM   #27
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I think you mean "War Communism", like the idea that Mr. Lenin envisaged.

"Come away O human child, to the waters and the wild, with a faery hand in hand, for the worlds more full of weeping, then you can understand" W. B. Yeats
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Old June 26th, 2007, 05:03 PM   #28
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Good sources for information on Communist Anarchism.

A detailed discription
Wikipedia
http://www.anarkismo.net/index.php
http://www.afed.org.uk/
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3909/

http://134.173.117.152/Anarchist_Arc...communism.html

To believe in communism is to accept science. The next evolution in society is communism, you don't have to support it, it will happen. Just as the aristocrocy was dissolved by the capatilists, and the agrigarian societys dissolved by the aristocrocy, and the hunter gatherer's dissolved the the agrigarian and pastoral societies. It will come to pass. But at this we should rejoice. No more unequality, no more master and servent, you make your living off of yourself, your neighbor of himself, nobody becomes wealthy or powerfull of the labor of another man or woman. You see? There is nothing evil, or polluted, or flawed. It is not a utopia, there would be problems, but the problems would be much less then the problems facing a capatilist society. There will still be pain, and unequality, it is the nature of mankind, but it will be better, then what we have today. That I can say with confidence.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 26th, 2007, 11:01 PM   #29
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Communism works for some: Cuba, China, Vietnam, N.Korea ( only because it is still their form of govt today)

and it doesnt work for others: Soviet Union

I believe it sounds good on paper, but it is a flawed idea.

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Old June 27th, 2007, 12:42 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dáñté View Post
Communism works for some: Cuba, China, Vietnam, N.Korea ( only because it is still their form of govt today)

and it doesnt work for others: Soviet Union

I believe it sounds good on paper, but it is a flawed idea.
What makes it look good on paper? What are its flawes? Do you really know? Are you just saying that?


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 27th, 2007, 01:54 AM   #31
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Default Re: Bourgeois and Proletariat

it does NOT work well in North Korea at all

Cuba, China...ya

N korea..no

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Old June 27th, 2007, 04:12 AM   #32
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North Korea is like, a fucking cult.
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Old June 27th, 2007, 12:09 PM   #33
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I shall now explain how the countries in the world today with a communist name, are actually not communist at all.
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North Korea is officially described as a Juche (self-reliance) State. Government is organized as dictatorship. Kim Il-sung, the founder of North Korea, was the country's first and only president. He was not replaced, instead receiving the designation of "Eternal President", and rests in the Kumsusan Memorial Palace in central Pyongyang. The active position has been abolished in deference to the memory of Kim Il-sung.
How then can you claim North Korea is communist. In communism, no one mans voice is greater then another, there is nobody with more power then another.

Quote:
While the PRC is regarded as a communist state by many political scientists, simple characterizations of China's political structure are controversial.[16] The PRC government has been variously described as authoritarian, communist, and socialist, with heavy restrictions remaining in many areas, most notably in the Internet and in the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of movement, freedom of reproductive rights, and freedom of religion. The country is ruled under the Constitution of the People's Republic of China. Its incumbent Paramount Leader is President Hu Jintao and premier is Wen Jiabao with people's congress and Communist Party of China.
Once again, the government rules the people, not the other way around. This once again is a form of Macro Capatilism.

Same for cuba, same for vietnam. A government should be a horizontal network of voluntary associations, workers' councilscommons through which everyone will be free to satisfy their needs.e


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 27th, 2007, 07:56 PM   #34
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Alright. Enough of this. I'm bringing down the debate hammer.

Communism fails as an idea because it is based on the concept of equality, which, in itself, is false. Let's say there are two average men. One goes to university and becomes a rocket scientist, the other works at McDonalds. Financially, the rocket scientist is superior. He has worked harder and is more experienced than the man who works at McDonalds, therefor he is more deserving of a higher salary.

But, you believe they should be equal, so let's say they are. The rocket scientist has now been going to university for several years, and cannot maintain a job during that time, so he doesn't get paid. The man who works at McDonalds however, has gone through no long training session, and works during and after the time that the would-be scientist is in university. Therefor over time, the man who works at McDonalds has made more money.

But you may argue that the scientist in university can get a part time job elsewhere, and still be paid the same amount. That'd be equal, no? Now, what if everyone had done this? University and higher education are starting to look pretty pointless, in my opinion.

This is the simple fact: We are not all equal. People who work harder are rewarded more in life, why you find that hard to swallow is beyond me.

Let's analyze something you said earlier, shall we?

Quote:
No, I refuse to become wealthy off of the labor of others. The cloths on my back reek of blood. Starving children, bellies bloated, hands calloused, sew the shirt on my back, every rise of his hand seared with pain, the hunger in his stomach was aching, burning, tearing at his insides. He forgot how to taste, how to breath, he suffered and died. For what, a piece of shit, a tee shirt, a shoe, a fucking computer. This is macro capitalism, where this awful government supports its slave drivers, the capitalists, the regimes, the wal mart, the kmart, the target, the kroger, the mcdonalds, the burger king, the wendys, the jc pennys, the belk, the dollar store, the PG&E's and the Entergy's and all the smut that you hate, that owns us all. I will NOT be an oppressor, I will NOT feed the machine, I refuse. BREAK the machine i say, SLAUGHTER the machine, it has been cruel, and shallow, and hallow and a hallucination. I am a communist, I am a freedom fighter, I am anti America, anti western thought, the day of reckoning has come, and americas days of plenty are few, because the people will not forever be blind to the oppressor!
That's a big post. I'll go a sentence or two at a time. Let's begin.

Quote:
No, I refuse to become wealthy off of the labor of others.
Becoming wealthy off the labor of others is a manager's job, so would you rather be an employee your whole life?

Quote:
The cloths on my back reek of blood. Starving children, bellies bloated, hands calloused, sew the shirt on my back, every rise of his hand seared with pain, the hunger in his stomach was aching, burning, tearing at his insides.
If you are so against child labor, then why do you wear the shirt? Why not make your own shirts? But no, that would be greedy. As you said yourself, capitalism is greed, so you can't do that.

Quote:
He forgot how to taste, how to breath, he suffered and died. For what, a piece of shit, a tee shirt, a shoe, a fucking computer.
As I said previously, it's not hard to make your own things. You don't even know what things are made by child laborors, there is no tag on any shirt that says "MADE BY CHILDREN". Perhaps they were before, but machinery can make most of the things we buy every day.

Quote:
This is macro capitalism, where this awful government supports its slave drivers, the capitalists, the regimes, the wal mart, the kmart, the target, the kroger, the mcdonalds, the burger king, the wendys, the jc pennys, the belk, the dollar store, the PG&E's and the Entergy's and all the smut that you hate, that owns us all.
How can you compare slave drivers to grocery stores and fast food chains? I don't see the connection. I underline 'all the smut that you hate' because this implies that we all hate all those things you listed. When in reality you hate them and we don't have any problem with it all. And what's with this "owns us all" crap? Walmart doesnt own me, it doesnt control what I do. Buying groceries does not make me some corporation's bitch.

Quote:
I will NOT be an oppressor, I will NOT feed the machine, I refuse
If you don't want to be an oppressor, stop buying things. If you do not want to feed the machine, stop buying things.

Quote:
I refuse. BREAK the machine i say, SLAUGHTER the machine, it has been cruel, and shallow, and hallow and a hallucination.
The so-called "machine" is called economy, get used to it.

Quote:
I am a communist, I am a freedom fighter, I am anti America, anti western thought, the day of reckoning has come, and americas days of plenty are few, because the people will not forever be blind to the oppressor!
Now you're just rambling.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us take a look at another of your posts, shall we?

Quote:
Your posts arent very valid arguments. They are more snide remarks with little to no factual bearing. You say only a third world economy? But you skew the reality. Communism is the next leap forward by society. Its a fact, *asking me or many sociologists* Capitalism can only hold off for so long. Are you rich my friend? Middle class? Privileged? No worries? I work, 8 to 12 hours a day, labor, I serve no purpose have no creativity, I'm an alienated robot, doing as I'm told by some bourgeois pig! Its difficult. Theres hardly money to eat, to pay the bills. I see no future for me in a capitalist country. Why not try and better myself. If all the world shared the world, then nobody would be poor or rich.

The bum down the street would still be a bum on the street. He represents a counter culture, and would change little from a capitalist to a communist country.

capitalism is greed
communism is equality

what are you?
Quote:
Your posts arent very valid arguments. They are more snide remarks with little to no factual bearing.
You're one to talk, freedom fighter. : P

Quote:
Communism is the next leap forward by society. Its a fact, *asking me or many sociologists*
Based on my points mentioned at the start of this post, I disagree. Communism discourages innovation and higher education by paying everyone equality.

Quote:
Capitalism can only hold off for so long.
Give me examples of capitalist countries that have not lasted very long.

Quote:
Are you rich my friend? Middle class? Privileged? No worries?
For someone against class discrimination, you sound pretty bitter.

Quote:
I work, 8 to 12 hours a day, labor, I serve no purpose have no creativity, I'm an alienated robot, doing as I'm told by some bourgeois pig! Its difficult. Theres hardly money to eat, to pay the bills.
Somebody should've done better in school. ; )

Quote:
Why not try and better myself.
That's a very futile act in a world where everyone is paid equally regardless of education.

Quote:
If all the world shared the world, then nobody would be poor or rich.
Valid enough point, I'll give you that, but the entire world doesn't want to share, and going by your communist beliefs, you can't force them to.

Quote:
capitalism is greed
communism is equality

what are you?
I choose greed, because it isn't futile.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 12:45 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by kolte View Post
If the income of the united states economy was equally distributed amongst the people each citizen would have an income of approx. 40k a year. Thats upper middle class for everyone. And no, communism does not work on the concept of competition, instead we see the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.
What you just described here is not communism, but rather socialism, in which the wealth of the nation is shared equally among its inhabitants. Mondragon, Spain is a perfect example of it too...

Free development inhibits competition on all levels. It things are free, where's the profit? If intellect is free, what is intellect? If culture is free, where is diversity? If politics are free, where is change and reform? In a communistic state, there is no need for such characteristics.

All these governments that appropriate 'communism' as their form of government are wrong. The term is a misnomer that characterizes a state of incomplete transition. Some would call it the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. There is distinct transition, that Karl Marx, himself, prescribes for communism to come into existence. The USSR nearly got there, however, VI Lenin got greedy, he didn't return power back to the upper class. There has never been a true communist state in the history of the earth, with the exception of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.

Communism throws us back to the days before the stone age...we'd be ignorant fools who'd know literally nothing. We'd be naked in a field, having sex at ease with whomever we please. Ignorace is bliss, so is communism.

Everglow Has Left this place for a while...or for good. Time will tell.
It was a beautiful letdown
I was trying so hard to fit in
Fit in, until I found out...
I don't belong here

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Old June 28th, 2007, 02:58 AM   #36
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Dear SubliminalTim

In the past I have received character defamations, but never has somebody so obsessively, so arrogantly, and unnecessarily gone out of there way to, perhaps better there self esteem on the behalf of my own. Though I don't expect an apology, and hope you don't feel obligated to do so, I do think that perhaps you should consider your words more carefully, so as not to come off rude. I know that I myself fail to do this, though I don't really see myself going to as great an extant as you, I do recognize that some of the things I say are blunt, unthoughtful, idealistic, distorted, unfocused, and rash, I was under the impression that this was a website where, blunt, unthoughtful, idealistic, distorted, unfocused, and rash teens could get together and share there views. I'm not just a human being, I'm a human being with severe personality disparities, and anti social, hostile behaviors. I acknowledge my flaws. Please, consider others when posting. I am not offended necessarily, but obviously I was made angry enough by your post to write this dialog. Please, discard it.

In the defense of communism:
Becoming wealthy off the labor of others is a manager's job, so would you rather be an employee your whole life?
You aren't really getting that I'm a communist are you? You see, in the advancement in society that I support, there would be a society radically different from ours. First of all, a manager is not a capitalist. Manager too is of working class. He too sells his only valuable, his labor, to make money. Our capitalist society reduces the working class to mere robots. Robots not the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind. Anyway, the working class does the same, repetitious job everyday, and the wages it ears for its toil is the minimum amount required to keep it alive. I have been born into a poor family, from a poor part of the united states, I went to a poor, underfunded school, I was mislead, and had little parental control. My mother worked nights, slept in the daytime, and I was isolated, in a new place, I had no friends, and so I turned to the world inside my head, and created a reality divided from the mainstream. My main form of entertainment came from reading. I read texts, not novels. I bought textbooks, and dictionaries, and encyclopedias, and have learned much about science, and mathematics, and language, and philosophy, religion, economics, and politics, not to mention work such as the communist manifesto, on religion, being and nothingness, the portable Nietzsche, the holy family, on the family. I found the Internet as a way to vent my frustrations and to see how my views matched up with my age appropriate population. My findings are, unique. I found that the youth of the nations are not revolutionary. They are spoiled, and dramatic, and enjoy there creature comforts. They are consumed in commercialization. They long for the next new thing. It is precisely what Nietzsche predicted. A generation, and many more it seems, of uneducated, ignorant, arrogant, and greedy people. These people will change the world, and for the better. They will erode society as it is today. They will cause it to fail, with there greed. We are already seeing some early signs of decay within, I need not point out how unstable the global society is becoming. Once the world falls into shambles, the capitalist society having failed, communism will be a haven for lost families. And those who shed the shadows of humanity, will recreate a new world, having noted the failings of the past.
If you are so against child labor, then why do you wear the shirt? Why not make your own shirts? But no, that would be greedy. As you said yourself, capitalism is greed, so you can't do that.
Not at all! I actually love the idea, and Think I'll take you up on that. Communism frowns upon a person who gets rich of the work of other people. A person working in a factory for example, really toils. And at the top of the pyramid, somebody sits back on a silk pillow sipping a margarita. Its not right. So making my own shirts, is actually a really great idea. I can buy material from a small business, so as not to support corporations. And one thing poverty thought me is to sew.
As I said previously, it's not hard to make your own things. You don't even know what things are made by child laborors, there is no tag on any shirt that says "MADE BY CHILDREN". Perhaps they were before, but machinery can make most of the things we buy every day.
One of the harsh realities of capitalism. The people of America might not slave for our goods, but people in say, Africa, SLAVE to make them. Its, as far as I'm aware, my own discovery. I'm sure that others have written on it, I can at least be sure that I came up with it, even if it has already be...come up with.(not well worded). Its called Macro Capitalism. Or, I have found State Capitalism. Micro Capitalism (My term), is where we find a capitalist, say, an oil tycoon, oppressing a worker. In Macro Capitalism, we find a government opressing its people, such as China, or Old Russia, or even modern countries like Sudan, Iran, and other poor African and Asian countries. to generate money the sell there goods to countries like the united states and also Europe, Australia, Japan etc. CAPATILIST competition amongst the nations drives down the cost of the goods, and thus, wages in the factories is driven down, to maximize the little profit there is. It gets messy with commodities like oil, and coal, and steel, timber, technology, cars. These shirts may not necessarily be built by children, you missed the metaphor. You see, It is made by labor in general. Somebody that is very poor and very fragile made these things so that I could enjoy them, being a macro capitalist by the society I'm in, (though a micro communist at the home front). Anyway, moving. on.
How can you compare slave drivers to grocery stores and fast food chains? I don't see the connection. I underline 'all the smut that you hate' because this implies that we all hate all those things you listed. When in reality you hate them and we don't have any problem with it all. And what's with this "owns us all" crap? Walmart doesnt own me, it doesnt control what I do. Buying groceries does not make me some corporation's bitch.
Though its not likely too many fast food workers and the like are subjugated to HEAVY labor, they are often subjugated to high amounts of mental stress and alienation. (Marx argues that alienation in capitalist societies is due to the fact that in work we each contribute to the common wealth, but can only express this fundamentally social aspect of ourselves through a production system that is not social but privately owned, for which we function as instruments, not as social beings ) And its doesn't feel good to be treated like a servant for hungry people. Or just greedy people for that matter. *sobs* Your right WalMart doesn't own you, personally. And yet you buy a product from wal mart. drawn in by there LOW LOW prices. And there bargain deals, being forced to look for cheap alternatives because of a tight budget brought on because of competition...you shop for what you can afford. Walmart is affordable. And thus, it owns you. And when you buy a product. You support labor. You support people of all nations, hard, alienating, and gain less work. Even your own.
If you don't want to be an oppressor, stop buying things. If you do not want to feed the machine, stop buying things.
Its true, but like i said before, competition, makes things you don't support, the most affordable. And living in a capitalist society, I'm forced to deal with money.
The so-called "machine" is called economy, get used to it.
You don't have to be rude about it.
Now you're just rambling.
You don't have to make fun of me.
Let us take a look at another of your posts, shall we?

>>
You're one to talk, freedom fighter.
Sorry I guess? I suppose You want me to apologize?
Based on my points mentioned at the start of this post, I disagree. Communism discourages innovation and higher education by paying everyone equality.
Yes but see there, you said paying everyone equally. And communism would, well, make money obsolete.
Give me examples of capitalist countries that have not lasted very long.
Well, as far as time is concerned, humans havent lasted very long. So every country in our existence has not lasted long. And not to mention, capitalism is very young, formed in the 16-1700s.
For someone against class discrimination, you sound pretty bitter.
Very, you don't know the half of it.
Somebody should've done better in school. ; )
A regret I have to live with every day of my life. But I'm not actually doing bad. I'm a high school graduate. Graduated with 3.8 grade average, not bad at all. Public school and home schooled, best of both worlds I would say. I am very limited financially, but with some of the plans I'm drawing up, I could see myself going to a community college with enough financial freedom, and I suppose, sociology and civil engenerring both sound intriguing, and pretty much, sociology will be my major, with a minor in something like English, or History as a minor.
That's a very futile act in a world where everyone is paid equally regardless of education
Once again with the capitalist money concept, and all. Education would be something to strive for in a communist society. Then the more delegable for jobs you are. And with education free in a communist society, whatever you wanted to be, you could just be it. There would still need to be about a days worth of labor involved, but the rest of your week, would be yours to choose. And with everyone working together to produce the food and shelter and civil services, we could all live with a standard of living resembling a family in the united states that appropriates about 45k dollars yearly. seems good to me.
Valid enough point, I'll give you that, but the entire world doesn't want to share, and going by your communist beliefs, you can't force them to.
Well, I know of about 100 million people out there (communists socialists, and such) would be totally thrilled to be ride of the capitalist beast. And I know we could sway about 5 billion, if only our voice was loud enough.
I choose greed, because it isn't futile.
You we are on two different wave links. ~ peter griffen, family guy



""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 28th, 2007, 03:33 AM   #37
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Mmm, well, first I should start out by saying, I'm sorry if I actually offended you in any way. I'm quite an arrogant person, and things tend to slip from me when I think I'm right. Again, sorry if you took any offense to that. Some of the things I posted are, now that I think about it, unnecesary to the debate.

Either way, kudos to you on arguing back all of my points, it's been thought-provoking. In my opinion, the main stale-mate in all this is the concept of money.

Out of realizing that neither of us will be convinced, I give, you win. As nice as you make communism sound, it won't happen in the US, simply due to the common stereotypes and misconceptions. Thanks for an interesting debate, I'm off.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 03:41 AM   #38
kolte
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Default Re: Bourgeois and Proletariat

Well, I don't wish for you to concede! Stay! We have broken a debate, and now it is time to discuss, like civilized adults. No more character assignation, or things like that. Threw the bog we have been bound by a common disagreement! Together, people with differing views can objectively come to agreements, and finally, though very different, find the similarities in our arguments at their hearts, realizing that we actually have the same basic concept of right and wrong, and blurring our differences until we realize that we share the same thoughts, we just express it differently. We have different symbols for smiler meanings. We just have to break threw the bog...what do you say, stay and discuss a while, and together we can unite under a greater understanding of ourselves. Who knows, working together, we just might achieve something more powerful and fulfilling then working against each other in competition?


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old June 28th, 2007, 04:37 AM   #39
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Is it just me or does your text get larger ever post? A bit off topic, yes, but anyhow..

Personally, I myself am not completely fond of the concept of currency, I prefer the very old days when people would trade things.

Let's say you have a hunter and a farmer. They both live in a world without currency. Every now and then, the hunter would kill a loose animal, skin its pelt, and make a shirt or something like that. Rather than selling it for money, he could trade it to the farmer for some food.

Money is but a useless object that has been given a numerical value. If we all used objects instead of currency however, we'd all get along more easily and the world would be more convenient. Money is, as I said, a useless object being traded for something of use. However, to me, it seems more logical to trade an object of use to someone else for an object of use to one's self.
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Old June 28th, 2007, 10:49 AM   #40
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Communism is the pinnacle of the humanist state, the eventual peak of human progression in a sociological sense. It also requires the peak of human acceptance and generousity, which at this point, is lacking. someday, not in my life time, probably not in my grandchildren's lifetime, democratic communism will hopefully be the norm.

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you can bomb the world to pieces
but you cant bomb it into peace

life is to short to make just on decision. musics to loud for just one station. love is to big for just one nation, and God is to big for just one religion


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