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Old November 4th, 2017, 08:31 PM   #21
Just JT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotionnel View Post
What is Christianity like in general when it comes to other religions that aren't associated with Christianity?

Do all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin or is it only certain groups who believe this?
Like others have said itís really different. I know from when I was going to a catholic school just a couple years ago, we were taught that or was a sin. Just like masturbation and premariatial sex is also. But even the Catholic Church is beginning to make changes as time goes on about same sex issues. But still, some individual parishes develop their own flavor I feel you will on many topics.

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Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan View Post
I'm a Christian and I don't believe that baptism is a requirement to enter heaven. Are you trying to say that the babies that die in child birth go directly to hell?
I was taught in catholic school,basically yes. I donít necessarily believe that, but Iím also not catholic.
I was finally baptized last year into the Protestant or gongregational faith. Typically babies are baptizes, I was almost 16. For me I felt a need to make a commitment to god and a belief. Not necessarily ridding my soul of original sin

But I also agree with @SethfromMI that maybe babies shouldnít be baptized. They canít make that decision at that time. Personally I believe that an all loving and all forgiving god will know when you pass how much remorse you have for your sins, if thatís even a thing.

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Old November 13th, 2017, 06:43 AM   #22
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If god created the entire world, why did he make the Earth so dangerous?


There's:
  • Cyanide
  • Uranium
  • Mercury
  • Poison Ivy
  • Poison Oak
  • Nightshade
  • Oleander
  • Tobacco
  • Poisonous Frogs
  • Poisonous/Toxic Snakes
  • Scorpions
  • Earthquakes
  • Floods
  • Lightning
  • Hurricanes
  • Tornadoes
  • Tsunamis
  • Asbestos
  • Anthrax
  • Smallpox
  • Bubonic Plague
  • Polio
  • Aids
  • Ebola
  • Tetanus
  • Tuberculosis
  • etc.


If god created humans, why did he make them so faulty?
  • Our eyes have a blind-spot. (Squids do not have this problem)
  • Males urinal tract runs right next to their prostate which can become enlarged, blocking flow, and cause major problems.
  • Women have painful childbirth due to a misplaced pelvis.
  • We have useless wisdom teeth which can cause pain, infections, and crowded teeth.
  • We can't self-synthesize Vitamin C, while most other animals can.
  • We get things like Cancer, Diabetes, Scoliosis, Heart Attacks, Asthma, Anxiety, Depression, Schizophrenia, Autism, OCD, Psychosis, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages. etc.
  • Not to mention War, Rape, & Murder.

Is god not all-powerful?
Does he not care about human suffering?
Is he punishing everyone? (If so, Why? Isn't he supposed to be all-loving?)

Matthew - 18 - Gay
Feel free to message me

"Is this a test? It has to be, otherwise I can't go on."
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Old November 13th, 2017, 11:28 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post

If god created the entire world, why did he make the Earth so dangerous?


There's:
  • Cyanide
  • Uranium
  • Mercury
  • Poison Ivy
  • Poison Oak
  • Nightshade
  • Oleander
  • Tobacco
  • Poisonous Frogs
  • Poisonous/Toxic Snakes
  • Scorpions
  • Earthquakes
  • Floods
  • Lightning
  • Hurricanes
  • Tornadoes
  • Tsunamis
  • Asbestos
  • Anthrax
  • Smallpox
  • Bubonic Plague
  • Polio
  • Aids
  • Ebola
  • Tetanus
  • Tuberculosis
  • etc.

If god created humans, why did he make them so faulty?
  • Our eyes have a blind-spot. (Squids do not have this problem)
  • Males urinal tract runs right next to their prostate which can become enlarged, blocking flow, and cause major problems.
  • Women have painful childbirth due to a misplaced pelvis.
  • We have useless wisdom teeth which can cause pain, infections, and crowded teeth.
  • We can't self-synthesize Vitamin C, while most other animals can.
  • We get things like Cancer, Diabetes, Scoliosis, Heart Attacks, Asthma, Anxiety, Depression, Schizophrenia, Autism, OCD, Psychosis, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages. etc.
  • Not to mention War, Rape, & Murder.
Most of the things you have listed are dangerous because of human influence or the absence of it, not dangerous per se. You also forgot all the good things about nature or the planet or the human body.

Also, "war, rape, murder"? Aren't those things attributable to mankind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Is god not all-powerful?
He is all-powerful, that's part of the definition of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Does he not care about human suffering?
He does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Is he punishing everyone? (If so, Why? Isn't he supposed to be all-loving?)
Mostly because he has absolutely no incentive to do so, I'd say, but I guess this is quite debatable.


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Old November 13th, 2017, 02:58 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Most of the things you have listed are dangerous because of human influence or the absence of it, not dangerous per se.
Why would god create such dangers in the first place?: Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Nightshade, Oleander, Tobacco, Poisonous Frogs, Poisonous/Toxic Snakes, Scorpions, Earthquakes, Floods, Lightning, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Asbestos, Anthrax, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Aids, Ebola, Tetanus, Tuberculosis

These are all things which occur naturally; humans had nothing to do with them.
Why would an all-loving god create such things?

Why would god create humans with flaws?
He is all-powerful & all-knowing, why did he not give us a perfect body?

Why does god let things like Cancer, Scoliosis, Asthma, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages, all happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
You also forgot all the good things about nature or the planet or the human body.
Well sure, there are some good things. But an all-powerful, all-knowing god should've been able to create a perfect human and a perfect world.

But he didn't. Because humans have flaws, and the Earth is dangerous. Which leads to humans suffering, and dying, every single day.
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god, let this happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Also, "war, rape, murder"? Aren't those things attributable to mankind?
But god is all-powerful, so he could literally do 'anything' to stop stuff like that from happening.
But he doesn't, so people suffer & die every single day.

Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god not do something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
He is all-powerful, that's part of the definition of God.
So he could stop all human suffering with just a thought, but he chooses not to? Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
He does. [Care about human suffering]
So if he's all-powerful, why doesn't he just end it? Does he 'want' us all to suffer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Mostly because he has absolutely no incentive to do so [end human suffering], I'd say, but I guess this is quite debatable.
His incentive is that humans are suffering, in pain, and dying, almost 2 people a second, day by day, all around the world.
He's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving, why does he choose to do nothing?

Matthew - 18 - Gay
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"Is this a test? It has to be, otherwise I can't go on."

Last edited by maddogmj77; November 13th, 2017 at 06:42 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 05:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Why would god create such dangers in the first place?: Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Nightshade, Oleander, Tobacco, Poisonous Frogs, Poisonous/Toxic Snakes, Scorpions, Earthquakes, Floods, Lightning, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Asbestos, Anthrax, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Aids, Ebola, Tetanus, Tuberculosis

These are all things which occur naturally; humans had nothing to do with them.
Why would an all-loving god create such things?

Why would god create humans with flaws?
He is all-powerful & all-knowing, why did he not give us a perfect body?

Why does god let things like Cancer, Scoliosis, Asthma, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages, all happen?


Well sure, there are some good things. But an all-powerful, all-knowing god should've been able to create a perfect human and a perfect world.

But he didn't. Because humans have flaws, and the Earth is dangerous. Which leads to humans suffering, and dying, every single day.
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god, let this happen?


But god is all-powerful, so he could literally do 'anything' to stop stuff like that from happening.
But he doesn't, so people suffer & die every single day.

Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god not do something?


So he could stop all human suffering with just a thought, but he chooses not to? Why?


So if he's all-powerful, why doesn't he just end it? Does he 'want' us all to suffer?


His incentive is that humans are suffering, in pain, and dying, almost 2 people a second, day by day, all around the world.
He's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving, why does he choose to do nothing?

God did create a perfect world where none of those things existed. As a result of sin though, the world groans so to speak, and such disasters occur. Our DNA is breaking down over time and that leads to more mutations and diseases. The perfect physical world could be no longer. So instead He chose to save us in a spiritual way, by dying for such sin.

Why is there still suffering today? Well there are a few reasons for this. Again, it is a sinful world where people choose to be corrupt and selfish and that affects other people. And yes He could come down and stop it (and sometimes help is provided through His interventions) but to come back totally and fix everything would be to judge the world. And that day will come. However, He waits for God is patient and the archaic word for patience is longsuffering. Thus, God suffers longer for the reason that more and more people may come to know Him and turn to Him before His judgement comes.

Keep in mind also that death is only the beginning and He provided a way of salvation for us so that despite the bad things of this world, it is a short time in comparison to eternity, for those who persevere. And yet even though He has already provided so much, He is not a far off God and still guides and helps and comforts us throughout the bad things around. He can use those bad things to grow and strengthen us as well and be a great benefit to others. That shows His love for us in that although the world is sinful (not His doing) He gave us a way to have a relationship with Him for eternity.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 10:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Why would god create such dangers in the first place?: Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, Nightshade, Oleander, Tobacco, Poisonous Frogs, Poisonous/Toxic Snakes, Scorpions, Earthquakes, Floods, Lightning, Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Tsunamis, Asbestos, Anthrax, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Aids, Ebola, Tetanus, Tuberculosis

These are all things which occur naturally; humans had nothing to do with them.
Why would an all-loving god create such things?

Why would god create humans with flaws?
He is all-powerful & all-knowing, why did he not give us a perfect body?

Why does god let things like Cancer, Scoliosis, Asthma, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages, all happen?

Well sure, there are some good things. But an all-powerful, all-knowing god should've been able to create a perfect human and a perfect world.

But he didn't. Because humans have flaws, and the Earth is dangerous. Which leads to humans suffering, and dying, every single day.
Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god, let this happen?
Think about it this way, if humans were perfect and the Earth was 100% safe to live on, would mankind even need God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
But god is all-powerful, so he could literally do 'anything' to stop stuff like that from happening.
But he doesn't, so people suffer & die every single day.

Why would an all-powerful, all-loving god not do something?
What would you suggest, then? God instantly banishing warmongers, rapists and murderers to hell? God controlling the mind of humans so that they don't even think about the possibility of waging war, raping and murdering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
So if he's all-powerful, why doesn't he just end it? Does he 'want' us all to suffer?
No, but you don't want his help either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
His incentive is that humans are suffering, in pain, and dying, almost 2 people a second, day by day, all around the world.
He's supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving, why does he choose to do nothing?
Not sure why that is an incentive considering mankind despises God and his help/interference.


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Old November 14th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post

If god created the entire world, why did he make the Earth so dangerous?


There's:
  • Cyanide
  • Uranium
  • Mercury
  • Poison Ivy
  • Poison Oak
  • Nightshade
  • Oleander
  • Tobacco
  • Poisonous Frogs
  • Poisonous/Toxic Snakes
  • Scorpions
  • Earthquakes
  • Floods
  • Lightning
  • Hurricanes
  • Tornadoes
  • Tsunamis
  • Asbestos
  • Anthrax
  • Smallpox
  • Bubonic Plague
  • Polio
  • Aids
  • Ebola
  • Tetanus
  • Tuberculosis
  • etc.


If god created humans, why did he make them so faulty?
  • Our eyes have a blind-spot. (Squids do not have this problem)
  • Males urinal tract runs right next to their prostate which can become enlarged, blocking flow, and cause major problems.
  • Women have painful childbirth due to a misplaced pelvis.
  • We have useless wisdom teeth which can cause pain, infections, and crowded teeth.
  • We can't self-synthesize Vitamin C, while most other animals can.
  • We get things like Cancer, Diabetes, Scoliosis, Heart Attacks, Asthma, Anxiety, Depression, Schizophrenia, Autism, OCD, Psychosis, Childhood Deformations, Still-Births, Miscarriages. etc.
  • Not to mention War, Rape, & Murder.

Is god not all-powerful?
Does he not care about human suffering?
Is he punishing everyone? (If so, Why? Isn't he supposed to be all-loving?)
What makes you think humanity deserves a perfect world? God may be a loving god, but he is also a just god. At first, God gave humanity a perfect world, but through our hubris and sin, we robbed ourselves from it. Humans, are in all respects, pardon my language, bastards. And like a good parent, God does not reward bad behavior by giving us what we want, but instead he punishes us for our transgressions, by allowing suffering among us. God does not like human suffering, but its frankly what we deserve.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #28
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As some have already mentioned, the reason why there is so much evil in the world, both natural evil (things like tornadoes, hurricanes, etc) and moral evil (murder, rape, etc) is the result of sin. The world was made perfect and sadly sin broke God's creation. Sin is like a disease. It not only effects humans but it sadly effected the rest of creation too. The life we have now, the world we are living in, is not what God wanted for us, but it is what sin has brought.

Too many people (and this is not directed at the person who brought this up, because this issue, why there is evil in the world, is most people's biggest objection to God if they don't believe), but too many people want to blame the creator when the problem lies at fault with us. The problem lies with humanity.

Some people wonder well why didn't God just make us all perfect. Why didn't God just force us to obey and force us to love Him. Well God loved us so much He wanted us to have the choice to love Him. He wanted us to love Him but is it real love if it is forced from you? So God gave us the choice. In order to freely choose to love God we need the ability to freely choose not to love God. God wanted us to do good but again, God gave us a choice. In order to freely choose right, we need to freely be able to choose wrong as well.

There will come a day when God will return for His people. There will be a day when Revelation tells its readers God is going to make a new Heaven and Earth. Of course in order to be a part of all the wonderful things God has in store, one will need to be in a relationship with Him, one will need to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

I understand the issue of evil and pain and all of that is a hard one for people to deal with. It is. For most people, even those who say their biggest objection to God is purely intellectual, if you really dig a little deeper, it comes down to the issue of evil. It is easy to blame God, blaming God allows people (again, I am not accusing anyone here of doing this, it is a general observation) to not blame themselves for the things they do wrong.

Want to see more of a change? This world will not be perfect until Christ returns and even then there are certain events which need to happen before God makes His New Heavens and Earth. But if you want to see a better world we need to live the way God intended for us too.

19 | M | BI

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Old November 14th, 2017, 10:58 PM   #29
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To stand in the defence of the Christians, I think God decided to pull out of worldly affairs right about after his chosen people decided to crucify his own son who came to absolve humanity of it's sins. I mean if someone I could help would refuse my help, I would also say okay and not inerfere anymore. Besides, it's humanity's fault that we strayed so far from God's teachings, from eating the forbidden fruit up to now, we were constantly straying.

This comes from a guy raised in a Serbian Orthodox family so it could be different in some regards to Catholic or Protestant teachings.

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Old November 14th, 2017, 11:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
To stand in the defence of the Christians, I think God decided to pull out of worldly affairs right about after his chosen people decided to crucify his own son who came to absolve humanity of it's sins. I mean if someone I could help would refuse my help, I would also say okay and not inerfere anymore. Besides, it's humanity's fault that we strayed so far from God's teachings, from eating the forbidden fruit up to now, we were constantly straying.

This comes from a guy raised in a Serbian Orthodox family so it could be different in some regards to Catholic or Protestant teachings.
I respectfully see things slightly different. It is not that God became indifferent when Jesus was crucified for Jesus was the plan from the beginning. I think a lot of the things which happen goes back to us having free will. You have to remember, even in the Old Testament, people used their free will for some pretty evil things. You have to imagine, there were people doing pretty evil things that is not recorded in Scripture. God is still active today. A lot of his "inactivity" (or the appearance of it) I would humbly argue is one, God allowing people to use free will but two, God is trying to give people as many opportunities to turn from their evil ways and get saved and redeemed and forgiven from what they did.

God has certainly given us free will, but God has ultimate control. The events described in Revelation which will take place in the future is quite clear. The Israelite's are still God's Chosen people, we see that throughout Scripture God does not forget about them and has a plan for them.

Anyways that is some of my humble thoughts. I do see where you are coming from. And to be fair, there have been times even in the Bible where God for a time left the Israelite's to sort of stew in the mess they made. Even in those instances, it was never forever, as God made a covenant with His people. When God makes a promise, He keeps it. That is where I am trying to come from.

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Old November 15th, 2017, 12:53 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Think about it this way, if humans were perfect and the Earth was 100% safe to live on, would mankind even need God?
Well god made humans and the Earth, so he should gave us nice bodies, and a nice world.
That's what a kind god would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
What would you suggest, then? God instantly banishing warmongers, rapists and murderers to hell?
If a person is about to abuse, rape, or murder an innocent child, yes I would like that person sent to hell immediately.
That's what a caring god would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
God controlling the mind of humans so that they don't even think about the possibility of waging war, raping and murdering?
He doesn't have to control everyone's mind, we can still have free-thought & free-will.
But as soon as someone makes the conscious decision to commit such an atrocity, that person should go to hell before they even get the chance to do so.
No-one should have to suffer on Earth because of someone else's decision to be an asshole.
That's what a fair god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
What makes you think humanity deserves a perfect world? God may be a loving god, but he is also a just god. At first, God gave humanity a perfect world, but through our hubris and sin, we robbed ourselves from it. Humans, are in all respects, pardon my language, bastards. And like a good parent, God does not reward bad behavior by giving us what we want, but instead he punishes us for our transgressions, by allowing suffering among us. God does not like human suffering, but its frankly what we deserve.
So an innocent, sin-free new-born baby deserves punishment in the form of birth defects, or being stillborn?
Innocent, Faithful, God-Devout Children "deserve" to be molested, abused, raped, murdered, or given any number of horrible diseases?
Does god not care about the collateral damage he does to Innocent people?
That doesn't sound like a "just god" to me. I have no reason to love a god who lets this happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
God does not like human suffering, but its frankly what we deserve.
If god doesn't like human suffering, then he should stop letting innocent people suffer, and punish the "sinners".
That's what a just god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Stronk Serb
@SethfromMI

Refer to my response to PlasmaHam.
  1. Innocent children are receiving punishment. (Disease, Defects, Starvation, Rape, Abuse, Murder etc.)

  2. Therefore, I don't think god is not fair or just; (He does not care about innocent people's suffering.)

  3. Therefore, I don't think that god is kind, or loving.
    [In fact, it's like he's choosing at random as to whom he "loves" & who gets "punished".
    (Hitler became a leader. MLK was shot in the head)]

  4. Therefore, I have no reason to love him in the first place.

If god wanted me to love him, he should at least give me a reason to.
All he would have to do is show me he is kind, just, & loving. An easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why should I love or obey a god who lets innocent children suffer?

What you are saying suggests that god is presenting us with an ultimatum: "Everyone on Earth shall love & obey me, or I will make you all suffer."
This sounds like an abusive and cruel god.

Matthew - 18 - Gay
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"Is this a test? It has to be, otherwise I can't go on."

Last edited by maddogmj77; November 15th, 2017 at 01:51 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 04:40 AM   #32
Borxar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Well god made humans and the Earth, so he should gave us nice bodies, and a nice world.
That's what a kind god would do.


If a person is about to abuse, rape, or murder an innocent child, yes I would like that person sent to hell immediately.
That's what a caring god would do.


He doesn't have to control everyone's mind, we can still have free-thought & free-will.
But as soon as someone makes the conscious decision to commit such an atrocity, that person should go to hell before they even get the chance to do so.
No-one should have to suffer on Earth because of someone else's decision to be an asshole.
That's what a fair god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So an innocent, sin-free new-born baby deserves punishment in the form of birth defects, or being stillborn?
Innocent, Faithful, God-Devout Children "deserve" to be molested, abused, raped, murdered, or given any number of horrible diseases?
Does god not care about the collateral damage he does to Innocent people?
That doesn't sound like a "just god" to me. I have no reason to love a god who lets this happen.



If god doesn't like human suffering, then he should stop letting innocent people suffer, and punish the "sinners".
That's what a just god would do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Stronk Serb
@SethfromMI

Refer to my response to PlasmaHam.
  1. Innocent children are receiving punishment. (Disease, Defects, Starvation, Rape, Abuse, Murder etc.)

  2. Therefore, I don't think god is not fair or just; (He does not care about innocent people's suffering.)

  3. Therefore, I don't think that god is kind, or loving.
    [In fact, it's like he's choosing at random as to whom he "loves" & who gets "punished".
    (Hitler became a leader. MLK was shot in the head)]

  4. Therefore, I have no reason to love him in the first place.

If god wanted me to love him, he should at least give me a reason to.
All he would have to do is show me he is kind, just, & loving. An easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why should I love or obey a god who lets innocent children suffer?

What you are saying suggests that god is presenting us with an ultimatum: "Everyone on Earth shall love & obey me, or I will make you all suffer."
This sounds like an abusive and cruel god.

If you refer back to my post that you missed, it addresses some of those issues. Intervention is not always seen in the way we expect but in the overall scheme of things. Whilst there is suffering in this lifetime, you are not looking at the bigger picture. This life lasts around 80 years. How long is that in the scheme of eternity?

God is not making people suffer. And if he was to punish the "sinners" then all of us would be punished. If you even hate someone, it is equitable to murder. If you lust for someone it is equitable to adultery. We are all lying, murderous thieves. We are all sinful and fall short of the glory of God.

So then God already has shown you how much he loves you, has done more than what was just and fair by a) allowing us to know Him, as we wouldn't be able to know Him if He didn't choose to know us, b) By coming to experience and share in our sufferings, c) By taking the penalty of death that we all deserve away from us, by demonstrating his love and dying for us whilst we were still sinners (As seen in Romans 5:8). And d) By still being around today allowing more and more to come to know Him. So God has shown that He loves you by choosing to die in your place and conquering death itself to give you abundant life.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 07:15 AM   #33
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If you refer back to my post that you missed, it addresses some of those issues. Intervention is not always seen in the way we expect but in the overall scheme of things. Whilst there is suffering in this lifetime, you are not looking at the bigger picture. This life lasts around 80 years. How long is that in the scheme of eternity?

God is not making people suffer. And if he was to punish the "sinners" then all of us would be punished. If you even hate someone, it is equitable to murder. If you lust for someone it is equitable to adultery. We are all lying, murderous thieves. We are all sinful and fall short of the glory of God.

So then God already has shown you how much he loves you, has done more than what was just and fair by a) allowing us to know Him, as we wouldn't be able to know Him if He didn't choose to know us, b) By coming to experience and share in our sufferings, c) By taking the penalty of death that we all deserve away from us, by demonstrating his love and dying for us whilst we were still sinners (As seen in Romans 5:8). And d) By still being around today allowing more and more to come to know Him. So God has shown that He loves you by choosing to die in your place and conquering death itself to give you abundant life.

See foe me, itís thismpost and your first one that tends to make me question my faith. I just donít get why these natural bad things, disease, natural disasters, and other natural things like birth defects and life altering illnesses happen. I get the genetic side of it from a scientific perspective, but....victims of earthquakes, hufficains, flooding, and wildfire. Those are all natural things that just happen. God created the world, the heavens, earth, water, wind, snow, light and the darkness was already there right? But why?

We are given free will, so that explains how people can do bad things to people. And he for whatever reason allows people to be victims in domestic violence, murder, school shootings, mass public shootings, victims of sex crimes and child abuse are allowed to go on under the ruler of god. Seemingly with no consequences under that ruling, that we, the victims, will ever see.

Are we really expected to simply forgive all those who have sined against us with no closure? Yeah thatís really hard to do, nobody said itís easy to be a good Christian. But thatís whatís expected of us? I have a hard time with it sometimes. Not saying your wrong, and I wana believe in what you say, but also have a hard time buying in on that.

God has jos reasons, he has his plan and a purpose for what happens,our lives are laid down before him for him to use and direct us through life. Yet when weíre faced with repeated events that challenge our wellbeing, health and safety as a result of natural events......why do these things happen? Is god pissed off at the world? If so then why take it out on all of the people instead of the ones he said pissed off at? He said supposed to be all forgiving. I donít get it.

People comittint atrocities will get their due when they pass. I get that, but does that allow them a free pass tomdomwhat they want until then? A lot like a guy doing life in prison, with no chance for parole, and committing rape to satisfy his own personal physical needs. And the consequences are what after death?

I do believe in god, I really do, but this is an area I really struggle with, and from my own personal life I look at people and think to myself if those who have sined against me, whatever consequences they receive while on earth, are completely irrelevant to the real consequences theyíll receive after death, if any consequences at all.

All I can do is think about it, and I try not to dwell to much on it, but it does come up from time to time. And I have a hard time forgiving those people. And if they beg for forgiveness their sins will be forgiven, and enter the kingdom of god. But what about the ďmeĒ part of that equation?

Not trying to create a debate here, more like Iíd like a really good reasonable answer, if there is one, in an easy way to understand.

Just hard to wrap my head around all the bad stuff that happens to good people, in an all forgiving world with a loving god

Sorry to ramble, thanks for reading

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Old November 15th, 2017, 08:19 AM   #34
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See foe me, it’s thismpost and your first one that tends to make me question my faith. I just don’t get why these natural bad things, disease, natural disasters, and other natural things like birth defects and life altering illnesses happen. I get the genetic side of it from a scientific perspective, but....victims of earthquakes, hufficains, flooding, and wildfire. Those are all natural things that just happen. God created the world, the heavens, earth, water, wind, snow, light and the darkness was already there right? But why?

We are given free will, so that explains how people can do bad things to people. And he for whatever reason allows people to be victims in domestic violence, murder, school shootings, mass public shootings, victims of sex crimes and child abuse are allowed to go on under the ruler of god. Seemingly with no consequences under that ruling, that we, the victims, will ever see.

Are we really expected to simply forgive all those who have sined against us with no closure? Yeah that’s really hard to do, nobody said it’s easy to be a good Christian. But that’s what’s expected of us? I have a hard time with it sometimes. Not saying your wrong, and I wana believe in what you say, but also have a hard time buying in on that.

God has jos reasons, he has his plan and a purpose for what happens,our lives are laid down before him for him to use and direct us through life. Yet when we’re faced with repeated events that challenge our wellbeing, health and safety as a result of natural events......why do these things happen? Is god pissed off at the world? If so then why take it out on all of the people instead of the ones he said pissed off at? He said supposed to be all forgiving. I don’t get it.

People comittint atrocities will get their due when they pass. I get that, but does that allow them a free pass tomdomwhat they want until then? A lot like a guy doing life in prison, with no chance for parole, and committing rape to satisfy his own personal physical needs. And the consequences are what after death?

I do believe in god, I really do, but this is an area I really struggle with, and from my own personal life I look at people and think to myself if those who have sined against me, whatever consequences they receive while on earth, are completely irrelevant to the real consequences they’ll receive after death, if any consequences at all.

All I can do is think about it, and I try not to dwell to much on it, but it does come up from time to time. And I have a hard time forgiving those people. And if they beg for forgiveness their sins will be forgiven, and enter the kingdom of god. But what about the “me” part of that equation?

Not trying to create a debate here, more like I’d like a really good reasonable answer, if there is one, in an easy way to understand.

Just hard to wrap my head around all the bad stuff that happens to good people, in an all forgiving world with a loving god

Sorry to ramble, thanks for reading
First of all, there are perspective issues that are in the wrong place. Imagine the Earth as an ally of God, when sin entered it, it suffered as well and so natural disasters crept in (and scientifically it is due to the change in environment from what it used to be at the beginning) and thus allows for natural disasters to occur. The key component that you are stuck in is the idea that God is the one causing these things to happen. When he isn't. Sometimes it's the result of how the world works. God may have His finger in it, in the positive things that come from the disaster, such as allowing people to be rescued miraculously or some may become closer to Him etc. It's not a case of I'm angry i'm gonna wipe you out like you suggest.

Also, keep in mind that the darkside, although not as powerful as God, can still tempt humans to do horrible things and create spiritual attack. The abusive things that people do come from the god of this world - Satan. And for those people who die in their sins, then after death they are separated from God, as no sin can enter His presence. They may have everything they want in this life, but it is meaningless when they cannot take it with them when they die and if they are separated from God.

What is being said, however, is similar to the time of Jesus. The Jewish people expected the Saviour to liberate them from Rome, make the Jewish nation a great one and always have plenty of food. But those physical things are not what matters. As even those who ate from Jesus' hand only cared about being fed and not about Him. But Jesus did not rescue them from Rome (although His influence led to women's rights, children's rights, charity and many other things) but he did rescue them from their sin. Which is a much greater gift.

And yes forgiveness can be hard. Yet even Jesus forgave those who mocked and killed him. This is also because if you harbour resentment and unforgiveness it will make you a bitter person as opposed to a loving one. Yet we are forgiven for the bad things we do. Do you realise that all of us are guilty of sin? And whilst in our human eyes there may be different levels of what is wrong, to God we are all sinners and deserving of death. That is what makes His sacrifice such a great one, because He died in our place.

So if someone wrongs you and does find God, you should be happy, because the "me" part of the equation is that it isn't about us, but about the glory of God and how someone who was lost has now found life in His name. But even in the midst of bad things, and you know I've faced many myself, He is there to guide us, comfort us and use us to achieve His purpose. You can know that He loves you, because we have access to God and can have a relationship with Him.

This world and its desires will fade away, but His Kingdom shall last forever (Matthew 24:35, 1 John 2:17)
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Old November 15th, 2017, 03:02 PM   #35
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Well god made humans and the Earth, so he should gave us nice bodies, and a nice world.
That's what a kind god would do.
You didn't answer my question. I'm also trying to avoid using the argument "evil was introduced in the world by men", which although true, I just was trying to approach this situation in a more racional way.

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If a person is about to abuse, rape, or murder an innocent child, yes I would like that person sent to hell immediately.
That's what a caring god would do.


He doesn't have to control everyone's mind, we can still have free-thought & free-will.
But as soon as someone makes the conscious decision to commit such an atrocity, that person should go to hell before they even get the chance to do so.
No-one should have to suffer on Earth because of someone else's decision to be an asshole.
That's what a fair god would do.
Shouldn't that person have a second chance, though? Like, you want to banish them to hell because of one mistake/action? This is akin to death penalty. Also, where do we draw the line. You're in favour of banishing to hell in murder, rape and abuse, but what about stealing, or financial corruption?

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If god doesn't like human suffering, then he should stop letting innocent people suffer, and punish the "sinners".
We're all sinners. To quote Milton Friedman, "thank God we don't get what we deserve".

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[LIST=1][*]Innocent children are receiving punishment. (Disease, Defects, Starvation, Rape, Abuse, Murder etc.)
Would you be okay if those things happened to adults, or you're just against it if they happen to children?

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If god wanted me to love him, he should at least give me a reason to.
All he would have to do is show me he is kind, just, & loving. An easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why should I love or obey a god who lets innocent children suffer?
What kind of practical evidence would you need from God is order to believe and love him?

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What you are saying suggests that god is presenting us with an ultimatum: "Everyone on Earth shall love & obey me, or I will make you all suffer."
This sounds like an abusive and cruel god.
It's more like "you have chosen not to love and obey me, so now you're on your own".


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Old November 15th, 2017, 06:14 PM   #36
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First of all, there are perspective issues that are in the wrong place. Imagine the Earth as an ally of God, when sin entered it, it suffered as well and so natural disasters crept in (and scientifically it is due to the change in environment from what it used to be at the beginning) and thus allows for natural disasters to occur. The key component that you are stuck in is the idea that God is the one causing these things to happen. When he isn't. Sometimes it's the result of how the world works. God may have His finger in it, in the positive things that come from the disaster, such as allowing people to be rescued miraculously or some may become closer to Him etc. It's not a case of I'm angry i'm gonna wipe you out like you suggest.
But god is all-powerful, so he should be able to stop hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, nuclear bombs, mass-shooting, birth defects, rape, murder, abuse, etc. etc. etc.
But he chooses to do nothing. He chooses to let innocent people suffer, even new-born babies.
Why should I love or obey a god like that? Does that sound like a loving god to you?

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You didn't answer my question. I'm also trying to avoid using the argument "evil was introduced in the world by men", which although true, I just was trying to approach this situation in a more rational way.
Your question suggests that god made a world in which he was needed. God made an imperfect world where we are doomed to suffer, just so that he could have something to do.
What kind of god would do that?

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Shouldn't that person have a second chance, though? Like, you want to banish them to hell because of one mistake/action? This is akin to death penalty. Also, where do we draw the line. You're in favor of banishing to hell in murder, rape and abuse, but what about stealing, or financial corruption?
Maybe, but I have yet to see one single person be sent to hell or stopped by god from committing atrocities. (Hitler, Pol Pot, Josez Stalin, Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong Un, Shooter in Las-Vegas, ISIS, 9/11 terrorists, etc. etc.)

I don't know where to put the line, but god has let millions of people die by the hands of one single person, and he still does nothing to them.
Where does god put the line? Does he have one at all? Why does he let innocent people suffer?

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We're all sinners. To quote Milton Friedman, "Thank God we don't get what we deserve".
So new-born babies are sinners? And they deserve birth defects? Still-births?
What kind of all-loving god would do that?
He could easily stop them both, why doesn't he? Why did he let them happen in the first place?

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Would you be okay if those things happened to adults, or you're just against it if they happen to children?
I'm saying that god doesn't protect the innocent, he lets even new-born babies suffer.
Why does god do this? Why should I love or obey a god who does this?
Does this sound like a fair, kind, or all-loving god?


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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
What kind of practical evidence would you need from God is order to believe and love him?
He should be able to stop all innocent people from suffering, and show in some clear undeniable way that it was in fact an act of god.
Should be an easy task for an all-powerful god.
Why has he never done it? Why don't we have a single piece of evidence of god doing 'anything' to save innocent people? Why does god do nothing to protect the innocent?

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It's more like "you have chosen not to love and obey me, so now you're on your own".
So what about the new-born babies born with birth defects? Or having Still-births? Why are innocent toddlers and children abused, raped & murdered?
They haven't even gotten the chance to love or obey god yet, and they are already being punished & suffering.
Why does god do this? Does he not care about the innocent? Why would an "all-loving" god think of us as ALL sinners?

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Old November 17th, 2017, 10:25 AM   #37
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Hi, can someone enlighten me about doctrinal difference between Reformed/Calvinism and Lutheranism? Cause from what I've read, they're basically very similar.

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Old January 18th, 2018, 11:42 AM   #38
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do you not think it is ridiculous dedicating your life to Ďsomeoneí that has never been proven to exist? Why donít you enjoy the life you currently have rather than waiting for your next one.
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Old January 18th, 2018, 12:58 PM   #39
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do you not think it is ridiculous dedicating your life to ‘someone’ that has never been proven to exist?.
Your theosophically approach is completely wrong.

This is about faith. And faith needs no proof. Consequently, it is nor was it ever necessary to prove the existence of God or of other gods in general.

On the contrary, those who want to prove God's existence are not true believers in any ways. They are pure doubters.


Unfortunately it's not always a voluntary decision whether you really dedicating your life to a deity, because it depends on how restrictive religious your education was, and so on.

... but this is your should be your very own decision.


Those decisions often are questioned affiliated bei others.

Imo, that is just as much a waste of time as it is the endless search for the proof of the existence of the divine.





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Old January 18th, 2018, 05:25 PM   #40
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do you not think it is ridiculous dedicating your life to Ďsomeoneí that has never been proven to exist? Why donít you enjoy the life you currently have rather than waiting for your next one.
Who says we don't enjoy our lives? What's wrong with waiting for the next one? We all wait for death anyway, it's inevitable.


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