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View Poll Results: What is your religion?
Agnosticism 142 13.64%
Atheism 312 29.97%
Buddhism 12 1.15%
Christianity (Please Specify) 415 39.87%
Hinduism 9 0.86%
Islam 33 3.17%
Judaism 17 1.63%
Wicca 17 1.63%
Other (Please Specify) 84 8.07%
Voters: 1041. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 17th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #2101
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Originally Posted by Apparitions View Post
extreme but realistic example), Society will never progress until religious indoctrination stops happening.
So by your theory, if religion is brainwashing, then you would not permit children to hang out with friends anymore. Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does. How your friends behave and think affects how you would normally think. You cannot say that "Religion" is evil but assent to other forms of social development which you consider "brainwashing".
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Old June 17th, 2011, 11:46 PM   #2102
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well iam not in to the the hardcore religion things like most ppl are but iam Roman Catholic and i am not sure how the christian and Catholics are alike. i know it has to do with beliving in one god i think.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 11:56 PM   #2103
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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
A parent has an absolute right to choose your religion for you. Just as they have an absolute right to choose your school for you, choose what health care you should get, choose what clothing you should wear when you are under 10.
While they're at it, can they also choose if you're going to be a child that believes in pro-life or pro-choice? Can they also impose their political beliefs on you? Comparing religion to education, healthcare and other necessities is nonsensical because religion itself is a personal thing, there is no real logic in it, as there is in school (i.e. you go to school, you get a good education and acquire some skills that will help you to earn a living later on in life), this is what is best for you, and it is pretty much a fact. Religion is not a fact, it isn't even an opinion, it's a belief system. Would you agree that parents can enforce their opinions on their child as they can force
a belief system as such?

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Until you reach the age you can think for yourself (the law permits this as being 18). If we say a young person should not be brain washed, then it would be the same as taking every single right that a parent has to make a decision for them.
What? Why? Brainwashing isn't a right. Childhood indoctrination is not a privilege.

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I see parents as agents with ostensible authority to act for the child. They have a fiduciary duty to act with the proscription of your health and well-being. Choosing your religion falls within that proscription.
Again, religion has nothing to do with your health and well being, if I don't accept a certain religion does that make me susceptible to cancer? Does it suddenly make me a bad person? No. It just means I'm now believing in the same thing my parents do which no one has any good reason to believe in anymore.

Another quick point I'd like to add is you mentioned that 'Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does'. That, is social influence. We're talking about religious indoctrination. When you're out with friends, they're not necessarily imposing it on you, you'd probably be pressurized to do it because you don't want to feel left out, but this isn't the same as threatening your child with torture and damnation if they refuse to conform with their beliefs.

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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:24 AM   #2104
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While they're at it, can they also choose if you're going to be a child that believes in pro-life or pro-choice? Can they also impose their political beliefs on you? Comparing religion to education, healthcare and other necessities is nonsensical because religion itself is a personal thing, there is no real logic in it, as there is in school (i.e. you go to school, you get a good education and acquire some skills that will help you to earn a living later on in life), this is what is best for you, and it is pretty much a fact. Religion is not a fact, it isn't even an opinion, it's a belief system. Would you agree that parents can enforce their opinions on their child as they can force
a belief system as such?



What? Why? Brainwashing isn't a right. Childhood indoctrination is not a privilege.



Again, religion has nothing to do with your health and well being, if I don't accept a certain religion does that make me susceptible to cancer? Does it suddenly make me a bad person? No. It just means I'm now believing in the same thing my parents do which no one has any good reason to believe in anymore.

Another quick point I'd like to add is you mentioned that 'Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does'. That, is social influence. We're talking about religious indoctrination. When you're out with friends, they're not necessarily imposing it on you, you'd probably be pressurized to do it because you don't want to feel left out, but this isn't the same as threatening your child with torture and damnation if they refuse to conform with their beliefs.

I think you are taking the definition of religion in an extreme case where parents force children to believe everything they want. Perhaps in countries where there is a strict set of beliefs one has to believe in. In a western family, for example lets take mine for example, my parents believe in God and therefore I believe in God. I probably went to church about 5 times in my life. I choose to be religious but my parents have never forced me.

Even the law unequivocally has said that a parent has the right to choose the religion for the child. This is mentioned in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child which most countries have ratified to. The law goes to further say where two parents (who have separated) have different religions the child should be exposed to both religions till he gets to an age where he can choose which one he prefers. The definition of well being includes religion, and since well being is the parents responsibility, the parent should have the right to expose the child to whatever religion they wish to.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:29 AM   #2105
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I think you are taking the definition of religion in an extreme case where parents force children to believe everything they want. Perhaps in countries where there is a strict set of beliefs one has to believe in. In a western family, for example lets take mine for example, my parents believe in God and therefore I believe in God. I probably went to church about 5 times in my life. I choose to be religious but my parents have never forced me.
Oh sure. You can expose the child to your religion and raise them with those values, but would you then agree that the child has the right to reject it any time it wants?

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
The definition of well being includes religion, and since well being is the parents responsibility, the parent should have the right to expose the child to whatever religion they wish to.
I don't know where this definition is from, but it's wrong. Well being does not necessarily require religion.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:33 AM   #2106
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Oh sure. You can expose the child to your religion and raise them with those values, but would you then agree that the child has the right to reject it any time it wants?



I don't know where this definition is from, but it's wrong. Well being does not necessarily require religion.
If a child wishes to reject the religion, then fine. I am all for that. He or she has that right. But don't tell me that a parent cannot expose a child to a religion he or she wishes to. I would go as far as saying that if a parent cannot choose their kids religion, that is not a free and democratic society. That undermines the Constitutional Guarantee of "Freedom of expression".

The definition is from the Supreme Court, Family Court and the United Nations which has been accepted in countries such as UK, NZ, AUS, and Canada.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 12:42 AM   #2107
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Mormon

Little kids check under their beds for monsters.
Monsters check under their beds for Chuck Norris.
Chuck norris checks under his bed for Duke Nukem.
Duke Nukem checks under his bed for Gordon Freeman.
Gordon Freeman checks under his bed to check if his crowbar is still there.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 03:47 AM   #2108
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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
I find it interesting that you need to resort to personal insults to debate your point.
Quote it, liar. I dare you.

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
A parent has an absolute right to choose your religion for you.
They have an absolute right to decide what you believe in your head? Do they have a right to choose your sexuality? Do they have a right to choose what clothes you wear even if they are inappropiate for today's age or are for the wrong gender and the child doesn't wish to draw unwanted attention? Does the parent have the right to dominate everything about the child's life and not leave any decisions to them? Hell, do they have the right to force all babies to permanently lose their foreskin because of "religion"? Honsetly, never before have I met such a radical authoritarian. It makes me wonder if you're just being sarcastic.

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Just as they have an absolute right to choose your school for you, choose what health care you should get, choose what clothing you should wear when you are under 10.
I've already refuted this, see above.

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
Until you reach the age you can think for yourself (the law permits this as being 18). If we say a young person should not be brain washed, then it would be the same as taking every single right that a parent has to make a decision for them.
It doesn't look like you've presevered the child's rights. What else don't the children have rights to? Freedom of abuse? Should parents be allowed to physically assault (as an example) their children now?

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
I see parents as agents with ostensible authority to act for the child. They have a fiduciary duty to act with the proscription of your health and well-being. Choosing your religion falls within that proscription.
Religion and welfare is completely different. You don't need religion in order to have a good life. Religion is a personal thing which you decide to follow (and whichever one you decide) if you should so desire. There is no reason why a parent should dominate that. It would be like parents forcing their children to never masturbate even when in privacy or to only be friends with the opposite gender in case they "turn gay" (yes, some people really are this stupid). Never before have I been so baffled by a responce in VT.

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So by your theory, if religion is brainwashing, then you would not permit children to hang out with friends anymore.
No. Obviously you know absolutely nothing about me or what I stand for. How the fuck does the mere act of hanging out with friends even remotely equate to brainwashing in the same sense of forcing a child to follow a specific religion? Going by your logic, would you discipline your child if they said an Islamic prayer when they were supposed to be Christian? I sure hope not.

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
Friends have more influence of children (Smoking, drinking, drugs) than religion does.
Except friends' "influences" are different from brainwashing in that they happen at a time when you are capable of thinking of yourself and are aware of the dangers and real friends will not force you into anything harmful. The defintion of friends alone probably moots your point.

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How your friends behave and think affects how you would normally think. You cannot say that "Religion" is evil but assent to other forms of social development which you consider "brainwashing".
I didn't say religion is evil. Learn to read.

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well iam not in to the the hardcore religion things like most ppl are but iam Roman Catholic and i am not sure how the christian and Catholics are alike. i know it has to do with beliving in one god i think.
Roman Catholism is a branch of Christianity. For all extents and purposes, they believe more or less the same things as other Christians, except with a few differences with interpretations of the bible, such as views on certain "matters" (*cough**cough* mundane things) such as contraception and homosexuality (not to say that all Catholics will find this wrong and all non-Catholics won't, since this isn't the case).

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Mormon
Guessed as much.

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Perhaps the entire argument [the death penalty] can be summarised in just a sentence.

We kill people who kill people to show others that killing is wrong.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 04:09 AM   #2109
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Suffice to say, you are just painting yourself as an idiot so I'd stop with your hypocrisy if I were you.
That is a personal insult, suffice to say, I don't personal insult people. I would stick to the debate and not get personal. Attack the argument, not the person.

Quote:
They have an absolute right to decide what you believe in your head? Do they have a right to choose your sexuality? Do they have a right to choose what clothes you wear even if they are inappropiate for today's age or are for the wrong gender and the child doesn't wish to draw unwanted attention? Does the parent have the right to dominate everything about the child's life and not leave any decisions to them?
Yes they do because children do not have the capacity to make decisions for themselves at certain ages. EG why do they allow a person whose under 18 not to enter into a contract?

And if a child wishes not to follow the religion which the parents have "included" the child into, then they are free to choose to be atheist or another religion. I have not advocated for parents to become a strict religious cult, with no option for a child to leave, but they have a right to expose the child to a religion which they believe.

Quote:
Except friends' "influences" are different from brainwashing in that they happen at a time when you are capable of thinking of yourself and are aware of the dangers and real friends will not force you into anything harmful. The defintion of friends alone probably moots your point.
Friends are always gonna have influence on you and how you Think, eg, I have never smoked pot in my life till one day a friend asked me to "give it a try". Friends have more influence over you than religion. In fact taking this further TV and Justin Bieber probably have more influence over kids than religion. If your gonna start labeling "religion" as brainwashing you might as well ban everything the child is exposed to. You might as well even put the child's brain into a VAT according to Putnam's theory and create an uninfluenced world.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 04:32 AM   #2110
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That is a personal insult, suffice to say, I don't personal insult people. I would stick to the debate and not get personal. Attack the argument, not the person.
No, I didn't call you an idiot. I said you were painting yourself as one. Like I've already said, learn to read.

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Yes they do because children do not have the capacity to make decisions for themselves at certain ages.
Which is why you wait until they are older once they've learned more about the world before trying to expect them to make choices. But using that as an excuse to force children into things they may not even otherwise agree with is pure madness and shows how religion is dying so malcontents who would do shit like this have to go to desperate measures like brainwashing just to keep religion alive. They should learn to accept that not everyone's going to follow the same stuff as them and drop this selfish attitude that everyone must follow it.

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
EG why do they allow a person whose under 18 not to enter into a contract?

And if a child wishes not to follow the religion which the parents have "included" the child into, then they are free to choose to be atheist or another religion.
It's hard to do that when your brain has been wired through indoctrination to believe only what you've been told. Why do you think this cunt is spewing the sadistic nonsence that he is? Do you think that he would be so sure about it if he weren't brainwashed?

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
I have not advocated for parents to become a strict religious cult, with no option for a child to leave, but they have a right to expose the child to a religion which they believe.
There's a difference between exposure and forcing people to believe it. If you want to tell your children about your religion, then fine. But for goodness sake, let them know the whole truth about religion and not just about what you believe. The latter (i.e. restricting their knowledge to only what you believe and tot he delusion that it is "the only truth") would be cowardice in my opinion.

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Friends are always gonna have influence on you and how you Think, eg, I have never smoked pot in my life till one day a friend asked me to "give it a try".
Then s/he isn't a friend. Simple.

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
Friends have more influence over you than religion.


I've just explained exactly why this is wrong, but I'll reiterate it:

Friends don't brianwash you in the same why religion does when you are young since you will be old enough to think for yourself and a true friend will not force you into anything bad. That's all I'm saying. Look back through the posts I've made if you want the rest of it, which I have told you.

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In fact taking this further TV and Justin Bieber probably have more influence over kids than religion.
*reiteration of the same image as before*

How many people do you think actually like Justine Beaver?

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If your gonna start labeling "religion" as brainwashing you might as well ban everything the child is exposed to.
As I said, there's a fine line between exposure and brainwashing. I suggest you look up its defintion, since you are obviously rusty on those. Too man parents bring up children getting them to believe that only they are right and not teaching them the full truth.

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Originally Posted by aussiebunnie View Post
You might as well even put the child's brain into a VAT according to Putnam's theory and create an uninfluenced world.

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Perhaps the entire argument [the death penalty] can be summarised in just a sentence.

We kill people who kill people to show others that killing is wrong.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 04:39 AM   #2111
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No, I didn't call you an idiot. I said you were painting yourself as one. Like I've already said, learn to read.



Which is why you wait until they are older once they've learned more about the world before trying to expect them to make choices. But using that as an excuse to force children into things they may not even otherwise agree with is pure madness and shows how religion is dying so malcontents who would do shit like this have to go to desperate measures like brainwashing just to keep religion alive. They should learn to accept that not everyone's going to follow the same stuff as them and drop this selfish attitude that everyone must follow it.



It's hard to do that when your brain has been wired through indoctrination to believe only what you've been told. Why do you think this cunt is spewing the sadistic nonsence that he is? Do you think that he would be so sure about it if he weren't brainwashed?



There's a difference between exposure and forcing people to believe it. If you want to tell your children about your religion, then fine. But for goodness sake, let them know the whole truth about religion and not just about what you believe. The latter (i.e. restricting their knowledge to only what you believe and tot he delusion that it is "the only truth") would be cowardice in my opinion.



Then s/he isn't a friend. Simple.



image

I've just explained exactly why this is wrong, but I'll reiterate it:

Friends don't brianwash you in the same why religion does when you are young since you will be old enough to think for yourself and a true friend will not force you into anything bad. That's all I'm saying. Look back through the posts I've made if you want the rest of it, which I have told you.



*reiteration of the same image as before*

How many people do you think actually like Justine Beaver?



As I said, there's a fine line between exposure and brainwashing. I suggest you look up its defintion, since you are obviously rusty on those. Too man parents bring up children getting them to believe that only they are right and not teaching them the full truth.



I am just going to stop posting to you in this thread because obviously you have an agenda to push. And yes you did call me an idiot just because you say you were implying that I was painting myself as one does not make a difference that you were saying that I was one.

It is also funny how you have to justify that religion is brainwashing by showing a person on youtube whose clearly gone too far (a minority) and saying thats how all religions act.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 07:12 AM   #2112
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Which is why you wait until they are older once they've learned more about the world before trying to expect them to make choices. But using that as an excuse to force children into things they may not even otherwise agree with is pure madness and shows how religion is dying so malcontents who would do shit like this have to go to desperate measures like brainwashing just to keep religion alive. They should learn to accept that not everyone's going to follow the same stuff as them and drop this selfish attitude that everyone must follow it.
I slightly disagree with the whole idea of not being able to expose your child to a religion at a young age. Religion has a link to the culture of certain countries and I don't really see the harm of presenting it as 'here it is, these are the rituals, these are the beliefs, what do you think?'. My parents are atheists themselves but because we're Pakistani, Islam is tied to our culture too, so just to give us a taste of that, my parents made sure I at least learn the rituals and try it out. I don't see any harm in that, at all. I do see the harm in childhood indoctrination though, and that is different to how I was raised. Being raised with a label is... questionable. The idea of having your personal life chosen for you... I don't agree with it.

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It's hard to do that when your brain has been wired through indoctrination to believe only what you've been told. Why do you think this cunt is spewing the sadistic nonsence that he is? Do you think that he would be so sure about it if he weren't brainwashed?
Well, arguably, there can also be people like this cunt who are not victims of childhood indoctrination but just follow another sad religion to waste their life away with. So, such behaviour from people who are brainwashed is not necessary. But I do agree with you Death, there is a danger of the child acting like an idiot.

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Old June 18th, 2011, 08:25 AM   #2113
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I am just going to stop posting to you in this thread because obviously you have an agenda to push.
Let me fix this quote:

"I am going to stop posting because I am incapable of finding anything with which to refute you and so I'm just going to pretend that the problem is the person I'm debating with even though he's been quite civil compared to what he could have been."

Seriously, grow up. And that's not much of a personal attack by the way. This is a personal attack:

"Like everything you pathetic religionists put in these forums aren't all superstitious nonsence anyway, right? You, personally, are the reason why these forums are shit."

Obviously I don't believe this, but I'm telling you there's a difference between debate and personal attacking. A difference I believe you either cannot, or will not see.

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And yes you did call me an idiot
I just explained why I didn't sweetie. Quit lying in order to get at me simply because your "arguments" (if you can call them that) have failed.

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just because you say you were implying that I was painting myself as one does not make a difference that you were saying that I was one.
Are you actually going to adress my arguments or what? It's obvious that you've failed and are now just whinging for the sake of it. What'ya want? A cookie?

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It is also funny how you have to justify that religion is brainwashing by showing a person on youtube whose clearly gone too far (a minority) and saying thats how all religions act.
Implying that I was saying that, which I wasn't. But then you knew that.

Seeing that you have no interest in civilised debate and can't stop whinging about how the other allegedly keeps insulting you on a personal level even though we both know I haven't. It would appear that you are as manipulative over people in forums as you would be with children of your own. As such, this pathetic "discussion" ends now - unless you're actually going to start debating properly, which would be nice for a change.

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I slightly disagree with the whole idea of not being able to expose your child to a religion at a young age.
That's not what I meant at all. I was saying that exposure is fine, but brainwashing isn't.

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Being raised with a label is... questionable. The idea of having your personal life chosen for you... I don't agree with it.
I agree. Teach children about all religion, sure, but don't make them only follow one.

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Well, arguably, there can also be people like this cunt who are not victims of childhood indoctrination but just food another sad religion to waste their life away with. So, such behaviour from people who are brainwashed is not necessary. But I do agree with you Death, there is a danger of the child acting like an idiot.
I'll admit that you'll always get extremists. But the numbers are still in flux. But otherwise I agree.

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Perhaps the entire argument [the death penalty] can be summarised in just a sentence.

We kill people who kill people to show others that killing is wrong.

Last edited by Death; June 18th, 2011 at 08:33 AM.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #2114
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By the way, someone negrepped me calling me a dumbass (that's all they said). Is that hypocritical, sarcastic, or what?

EDIT: Judging by the rep, I'm guessing it was you, assuiebunnie. And here was me thinking you were complaining at me for a personal attacking even though I just disagreed with you. This hypocrisy is hilarious.

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Perhaps the entire argument [the death penalty] can be summarised in just a sentence.

We kill people who kill people to show others that killing is wrong.

Last edited by Death; June 19th, 2011 at 05:28 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 12:51 AM   #2115
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It is a BS excuse. We would still have free will if god showed us he was real. Acording to the bible jesus showed himself to thousands after he rose.
It's not a BS excuse, it's a test of Faith. If you have faith, you don't need any evidence. If you don't have faith, you probably will request for evidence.

Plus, Jesus... you don't know the concept of trinity?
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 03:25 AM   #2116
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My dad's atheist my mom's pagan and my sis is chistain and I do not know what I am I believe in a higher power but that's it.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 03:23 PM   #2117
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Default Re: Religion

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Originally Posted by Electric Nomad View Post
It's not a BS excuse, it's a test of Faith. If you have faith, you don't need any evidence.
Doesn't make it real. It simply makes it wishful thinking, regardless of its accuracy.

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Originally Posted by AJC410 View Post
My dad's atheist my mom's pagan and my sis is chistain and I do not know what I am I believe in a higher power but that's it.
How can you believe in something without knowing what that something is, simply for the sake of believing in one? I believe humanity should be more inquisitive and independantly-thinking than this.

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Originally Posted by Donkey View Post
Perhaps the entire argument [the death penalty] can be summarised in just a sentence.

We kill people who kill people to show others that killing is wrong.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 12:32 PM   #2118
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Default Re: Religion

Going to the OP I do not judge members of other religions. I personally don't see an overwhelming reason to.

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Old June 26th, 2011, 08:23 AM   #2119
Magus
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Death View Post
Doesn't make it real. It simply makes it wishful thinking, regardless of its accuracy.
What is real. If you take on that perspective, then it is a wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by Death View Post
How can you believe in something without knowing what that something is, simply for the sake of believing in one? I believe humanity should be more inquisitive and independantly-thinking than this.
Yes, they should be. But you are missing a few points. There are some phenomenons that occurs in this world that supports their beliefs.
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Old June 26th, 2011, 08:28 AM   #2120
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Default Re: Religion

The Wicca,



thanks to Kaius for the sig

If you need to talk or rant pm me
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