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Old November 28th, 2019, 11:47 AM   #21
Stronk Serb
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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I disagree with that point. Jews have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years alongside Zoroastrians, Baha'i, Muslims, Christians etc etc with equal amount of comfort as they have in Europe during that period (the occasional dogmatic ruler expelling them, fairly frequent village attacks etc) and one of the key components of that was the fact that the ideological argument of a Jewish right over the Holy Land was pretty minor and unlikely to ever come to be. Ultimately, the creation of Israel making that ideological struggle a reality is what has fired up the region into conflict. If the Muslims (since anyone who is native to the region is an Arab, no matter the religion) really did have some deeply ingrained vendetta against the Jewish communities, the Jews would have been wiped out centuries ago during the Islamic Golden Age of Arab conquest. The recent tension is purely a land dispute rather than a deep religious struggle.
I think the problem with Israel is worse than Northern Ireland during the Troubles. The nature of the Middle Eastern colonisation means that everything was divided arbitrarily, even Israel with Jews, Muslims and everything in between separated by a border into a state they felt unwelcome in. The same like the split of the British Raj into India and Pakistan. There were no people on the ground to see what their policies will bring.

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Old November 28th, 2019, 12:03 PM   #22
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
I think the problem with Israel is worse than Northern Ireland during the Troubles. The nature of the Middle Eastern colonisation means that everything was divided arbitrarily, even Israel with Jews, Muslims and everything in between separated by a border into a state they felt unwelcome in. The same like the split of the British Raj into India and Pakistan. There were no people on the ground to see what their policies will bring.
There are quite many muslim arabs who live in Israel and are full citicens of said country

Who is John Galt
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Old November 30th, 2019, 07:11 AM   #23
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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There are quite many muslim arabs who live in Israel and are full citicens of said country
Finns were also citizens of the Russian Empire, but Finland still broke away. I wonder why?

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Old December 2nd, 2019, 05:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
I disagree with that point. Jews have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years alongside Zoroastrians, Baha'i, Muslims, Christians etc etc with equal amount of comfort as they have in Europe during that period (the occasional dogmatic ruler expelling them, fairly frequent village attacks etc) and one of the key components of that was the fact that the ideological argument of a Jewish right over the Holy Land was pretty minor and unlikely to ever come to be.
Isn't it a bit more complicated that that? The Jews spend some time in Egypt in a time that one has to assume is before the birth of Christ given that the story is told in the old testament of the bible. At first, it seems, they were welcome and then when a new pharoh took power they were enslaved and eventually broke free and left.

At that time Judaism would have been the only Abrahamic religion because the others had not yet arisen. Christianity began with Christ and Islam is reckoned to have arisen early 7th century CE, i.e. well after Christianity. So those enslaving the Jews in Egypt would not have been Muslim.
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Old December 2nd, 2019, 10:03 AM   #25
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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Isn't it a bit more complicated that that? The Jews spend some time in Egypt in a time that one has to assume is before the birth of Christ given that the story is told in the old testament of the bible. At first, it seems, they were welcome and then when a new pharoh took power they were enslaved and eventually broke free and left.

At that time Judaism would have been the only Abrahamic religion because the others had not yet arisen. Christianity began with Christ and Islam is reckoned to have arisen early 7th century CE, i.e. well after Christianity. So those enslaving the Jews in Egypt would not have been Muslim.
I didn't mean that all those religions have been there thouysands of years, just that Judaism has existed alongside other faiths LIKE those ones for thousands of years. Yes, the major religions around Judea at the time of Moses were mainly pagan and most are now dead religions but the relationship between them and Judaism was pretty similar to the relationship between faiths now: centuries of land conflicts and a fair few unfortunate genocides based on faith, same as what happened everywhere in the world.

My point wasn't that Judaism hasn't been suppressed over time, just that it was a pretty worldwide phenomenon until WW2.
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Old December 2nd, 2019, 01:51 PM   #26
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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I didn't mean that all those religions have been there thouysands of years, just that Judaism has existed alongside other faiths LIKE those ones for thousands of years. Yes, the major religions around Judea at the time of Moses were mainly pagan and most are now dead religions but the relationship between them and Judaism was pretty similar to the relationship between faiths now: centuries of land conflicts and a fair few unfortunate genocides based on faith, same as what happened everywhere in the world.

My point wasn't that Judaism hasn't been suppressed over time, just that it was a pretty worldwide phenomenon until WW2.
Well, to be honest, Anti-Semitism was widespread around Europe since the Middle Ages. It wasn't a thing that just sprung out of nowhere when Hitler entered politics, no matter how much revision is done. One of the reasons Leon Trotsky didn't want leadership over the Soviet Union (he did contest Lenin many times) was because he was a Jew and knew he wouldn't last long.

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Old December 2nd, 2019, 06:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: middle-east is a cursed place!

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Well, to be honest, Anti-Semitism was widespread around Europe since the Middle Ages. It wasn't a thing that just sprung out of nowhere when Hitler entered politics, no matter how much revision is done. One of the reasons Leon Trotsky didn't want leadership over the Soviet Union (he did contest Lenin many times) was because he was a Jew and knew he wouldn't last long.
Oh definitely, a quote I once read and agreed with when studying 20th Century History was by some historian. I can't find the direct quote so I'll have to paraphrase: 'If a contemporary (of the pre-WW2 era) was told of a great genocide of the Jewish people in Europe, their thoughts may have been of France in the 1910s or the Pogroms of Russia. Not for one moment would they consider that the great Jewish intelligentsia of Germany would be the ones under attack."

The main point of that take is that it's extremely unfortunate that the Allies managed so successfully to wash their hands of centuries of anti-Semitism that ultimately led to the Holocaust by underplaying JUST how awful life could be in pre-WW2 Europe and the Americas for Jewish people.
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