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Old June 21st, 2018, 07:31 AM   #21
Hermes
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Default Re: Burka or niqab forbidden

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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
Let us pretend that it is a benign rule which has nothing to do with the burka or the niqab and it's full intentions are to tackle criminal behaviour*. There still should be exceptions made for religious groups and necessary religious circumstances, and we still shouldn't force people to choose between being a criminal and remaining true to their faith on an issue which is not associated with material harm towards any unwilling third-parties.
So you've made an exception for material harm, which is good, otherwise what's to stop a group of people claiming that their religion requires human sacrifices to me made to their god and that therefore their followers should be exempt from the laws on homicide.

That also raises the question of what one defines as a religion. Does it have to be old? Does it have to have a certain number of followers? A written canon?. It seems to me guaranteeing not to enact laws that, as a side effect, prevents people from complying with some aspect of their religion, or allowing them to claim exemption because of their religion does run the risk that religion will be used as an excuse not to comply with laws people simply don't like. A mundane example of this is that, in the UK, the law requires the wearing of a crash helmet when riding a motorcycle. If you're Sikh, though, you are exempt as it would prevent your from wearing your turban. So, if I don't like crash helmets I could don a turban instead and tell any police officer who stopped me that I was Sikh.

On the other hand I do agree that we should refrain from enacting laws whose purpose is to stop people from doing things that just make us a bit uncomfortable. We've already been through that in the past with the state legislating about what sexual practices are and are not acceptable between consenting adults based entirely on this "Eew!, I don't like the idea of that!" or "I think that's a sin, other people should be prevented from doing that!" philosophy. We do need a strong sense that legislation is a restriction of freedom and the case must be clearly made as why a benefit to the population as a whole makes that intrusion on individual freedom justified.

When we see piece of legislation that has an affect of the ability to practice a particular religion and then the case for the greater good is weak it will look very much like religious hatred dressed up to look otherwise.
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Old June 21st, 2018, 11:18 AM   #22
HeyCameron
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Default Re: Burka or niqab forbidden

Ah, but read the fine print: unwilling third parties. So if someone wants to be sacrificed, then that's potentially permissible. Good luck proving that they wanted it, though.

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Last edited by HeyCameron; June 21st, 2018 at 11:28 AM.
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Old June 21st, 2018, 01:51 PM   #23
Vlerchan
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Default Re: Burka or niqab forbidden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermes
That also raises the question of what one defines as a religion. Does it have to be old? Does it have to have a certain number of followers? A written canon?.
I don't believe we should employ a rigid definition, with the question of assessing whether a set of beliefs constitutes a religion being left to the courts.

This is the case in all Western countries I can think of.

---

It's worth noting that even if we didn't have freedom of religion clauses, the pursuit of a secular agenda places this burden on the courts irrespective. In promoting the ideal of religious freedom, I'm not forcing the courts to grapple with concepts more difficult than what is already on their plates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermes
It seems to me guaranteeing not to enact laws that, as a side effect, prevents people from complying with some aspect of their religion, or allowing them to claim exemption because of their religion does run the risk that religion will be used as an excuse not to comply with laws people simply don't like. A mundane example of this is that, in the UK, the law requires the wearing of a crash helmet when riding a motorcycle. If you're Sikh, though, you are exempt as it would prevent your from wearing your turban. So, if I don't like crash helmets I could don a turban instead and tell any police officer who stopped me that I was Sikh.
I think most people feigning religious conversions would find their defences unraveling quite quickly if put under any pressure.

If it is the case that someone decided to don a turban, and gathers an understanding of the Sikh faith, and then masquerade as a Sikh in order to avoid helmet laws then that's unfortunate, but the outcome is acceptable. The entire point of human rights is that we value them independent of their associated utilitarian outcome.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 29th, 2018, 09:48 AM   #24
Lucy G
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Default Re: Burka or niqab forbidden

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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
Nice to see that you agree with me. So therefore, by the same principle, unless you can prove that a significant enough amount of women wearing a burka/niqab are forced into doing so against their will, you can't really promote a ban on them on the grounds of protecting their interests. If you feel that it's restrictive and promotes male dominance, that's awesome since that's your opinion. Don't wear a burka. But you can't tell another woman who has equally chosen to wear it a sign of their faith that their choice is less valid simply because of your opinion.
I wasn't advocating banning anyone who wants to wear a burka, wearing one. I'm just against anyone being forced to do anything against their will whether its for religious reasons or any other. Maybe I didn't make myself clear - hopefully I now have. Thanks

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Old June 29th, 2018, 04:43 PM   #25
Oscar2005
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Default Re: Burka or niqab forbidden

I think this law is stupid. If its the woman's choice, why go against it ? If it is not her choice, as in she is forced by her husband or family, they will prevent her from going outside, so that will not arrange things
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 09:52 AM   #26
ShineintheDark
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Default Re: Burka or niqab forbidden

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Originally Posted by Oscar2005 View Post
I think this law is stupid. If its the woman's choice, why go against it ? If it is not her choice, as in she is forced by her husband or family, they will prevent her from going outside, so that will not arrange things
That isn't necessarily true as women who are forced to wear the burka/niqab aren't always confined to the household. However, forcing someone to wear something against their will is denying them freedom of expression and personal autonomy which, if reported to the proper authorities, will likely lead to intervention by social services to protect the woman from being controlled by her husband/father/brother etc.
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