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Old May 16th, 2019, 02:47 PM   #1
mattsmith48
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Default Alabama bans abortion

The same people fearmongering about Muslims wanting to implement sharia-law, are implementing sharia-law. Remember when that state was fun like that time they gave 48% of the vote a open paedophile.


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Alabama has become the latest US state to move to restrict abortions by passing a bill to outlaw the procedure in almost all cases.

The law includes a ban on abortion in cases of rape or incest.

Supporters say they expect the law to be blocked in court but hope that the appeals process will bring it before the Supreme Court.

They want the court, which now has a conservative majority, to overturn the 1973 ruling legalising abortion.

Alabama's 35-seat Senate is dominated by men, and none of its four female senators backed the ban. It was then signed by Alabama's Republican governor, Kay Ivey.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48275795

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Old May 16th, 2019, 02:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

Ironic, ain't it? Not the Sharia Law thing, that argument makes no sense, no it's how that one of the largest slave-holding states and resistant to black personhood, is now leading in granting personhood to an oppressed minority. Good turnaround Alabama.
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Old May 16th, 2019, 03:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

Pretty disgusting, all these states attempting to take the rights away from women

"The head may err, but never the blood.”
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Old May 16th, 2019, 09:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

hopefully they get not even funnier.





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Old May 17th, 2019, 02:06 AM   #5
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

I would say definetley allow it for under 18s... afterwards im not so sure.. at least if a 12 year old got pregnant by rape.. then it could kill her...Im just not into the idea of killing innocent babies..
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Old May 17th, 2019, 06:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by thewilddog View Post
I would say definetley allow it for under 18s... afterwards im not so sure.. at least if a 12 year old got pregnant by rape.. then it could kill her...Im just not into the idea of killing innocent babies..
They’re not babies, and they’re not conscious or aware of what is happening, compared to a living child already in the world.

But that’s not really the point. It’s not a matter of protecting children or being pro life, it’s about control and restriction.

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Ironic, ain't it? Not the Sharia Law thing, that argument makes no sense, no it's how that one of the largest slave-holding states and resistant to black personhood, is now leading in granting personhood to an oppressed minority. Good turnaround Alabama.
Who’s the oppressed minority?

As far as I see it, it’s the state forcing women to have children that will probably end up in foster care (so the government can make money off the foster care system) or jail. Over a quarter of the population in Alabama is African American, and Alabama has one of the highest incarceration rates in the United States (African Americans incarceration rates are nearly 3x those of white people). Just looks like another way for the government to be oppressing women, scamming money, and putting African Americans in jail.

More racism and sexism, not surprising of the South.

What’s your opinion on them not excluding rape and incest? Is that more rights granted to an oppressed minority? An 11 year old abused child having to carry and deliver her rapists’ child, probably killing them both, or living with that trauma for the rest of her life?

"The head may err, but never the blood.”
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Old May 17th, 2019, 12:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

Absolutely disgusting. It's a mixture of Christian conservatives trying to push their views on everyone and right-wingers who are out to hurt women - to "punish" them for being "sluts" or daring to not want children or to limit the amount of children they want. Alabama's law is literally trying to force women to carry a baby conceived from rape to term. It's sad that white evangelical radicals are such an important part of the Republican party that they can push for this stuff and also disgraceful that the rest of the party seems to be okay with it. Maybe it's because it's going to disproportionately affect the poor and racial minorities who would find it harder to travel to a state which allows abortion.
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Old May 17th, 2019, 02:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

Yeah this bill is a direct political response to the issue of abortion made to some bill I heard New York State advanced (don’t know if it became law) that floated the idea of killing the baby outside the womb post-birth.


Idk i haven’t done my due diligence researching the New York Law.


At least Georgia’s bill has exceptions for rape, incest, and medical exemptions for when life of mother is in danger.
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Old May 17th, 2019, 07:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by Uniquemind View Post
Yeah this bill is a direct political response to the issue of abortion made to some bill I heard New York State advanced
Basing state policy on the diametrically opposite to other states to own the Libs
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Old May 18th, 2019, 12:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
Basing state policy on the diametrically opposite to other states to own the Libs
Yeah; that happens.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 03:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
Basing state policy on the diametrically opposite to other states to own the Libs
I swear some right-wingers would burn their own house down to "own the libs".
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Old May 19th, 2019, 03:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

I'm going to address the various points and responses through numerous posts. I don't have the time for some mega-post, and I think we have better discussion when a point is directly addressed.
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As far as I see it, it’s the state forcing women to have children that will probably end up in foster care (so the government can make money off the foster care system) or jail. Over a quarter of the population in Alabama is African American, and Alabama has one of the highest incarceration rates in the United States (African Americans incarceration rates are nearly 3x those of white people). Just looks like another way for the government to be oppressing women, scamming money, and putting African Americans in jail.

More racism and sexism, not surprising of the South.
Let's address the racism argument here. First thing to get out of the way, this Alabama bill does not prosecute mothers for abortions, but instead prosecutes the doctors that preforms them. Doctors are statistically white and male. But let's head to the main crux of the racism argument, and its main weakness. Blacks statistically have a much larger abortion rate than whites, I believe they are around 4x more likely to have an abortion. So I ask you, which is more racist? Saying that black mothers cannot legal kill their black baby, or allowing a system that kills significantly more black babies in a year than slavery and Jim Crow ever did?
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Old May 19th, 2019, 05:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
I'm going to address the various points and responses through numerous posts. I don't have the time for some mega-post, and I think we have better discussion when a point is directly addressed.

Let's address the racism argument here. First thing to get out of the way, this Alabama bill does not prosecute mothers for abortions, but instead prosecutes the doctors that preforms them. Doctors are statistically white and male. But let's head to the main crux of the racism argument, and its main weakness. Blacks statistically have a much larger abortion rate than whites, I believe they are around 4x more likely to have an abortion. So I ask you, which is more racist? Saying that black mothers cannot legal kill their black baby, or allowing a system that kills significantly more black babies in a year than slavery and Jim Crow ever did?
If black women are more likely to have an abortion, more black women to die from complications from illegal abortions thanks to this ban. This ban won't stop abortions its just that instead of being performed with the safety and regulations of a clinic by a trained professional, it will be done in a dirty dark alley by someone who's training consist of a 5 minute YouTube video.

If they really cared about preventing abortions they would make contraception free and easily available for everyone.

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Old May 19th, 2019, 08:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
If black women are more likely to have an abortion, more black women to die from complications from illegal abortions thanks to this ban. This ban won't stop abortions its just that instead of being performed with the safety and regulations of a clinic by a trained professional, it will be done in a dirty dark alley by someone who's training consist of a 5 minute YouTube video.
Of course, whenever you ban items there's always going to be some crooks who decide to exploit people's desperation and desires. And sometimes that results in negative outcomes that could be mitigated if the action was legal. You'll get that with drugs, guns, abortions, etc. You just gotta judge whether illegal and rare is better than legal and common, or vice-versa.

But that's not my point I was trying to express. Mars claimed that this law was racist. Wouldn't true racists support a system that thins the black population? Abortion has always been supported as a means of eugenics, something supported by most white supremacists.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 05:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

as a conservative i don't see a problem with this
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Old Yesterday, 06:55 AM   #16
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

I was born in Alabama and I can say I’m very proud of my home state. When people say it’s “women’s rights” they should know it’s a “right” that doesn’t exist anywhere. Our constitution never said anything like “right to abortion” or “reproductive right”. Killing a live baby is cruel to me.... and I know the governor of Alabama is a woman. So it’s not “men controlling women” like the media says.....
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Old Yesterday, 09:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

I support a woman’s right to an abortion. It’s a personal choice and women should have the right to choose.

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Old Yesterday, 12:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Let's address the racism argument here. First thing to get out of the way, this Alabama bill does not prosecute mothers for abortions, but instead prosecutes the doctors that preforms them. Doctors are statistically white and male.
That's being a bit obtuse. The prosecution of doctors is there to force them not to provide abortions, therefore denying women abortions. You accidentally said mothers there when, of course, some women are not mothers yet when they have abortions - though, contrary to popular belief, a majority of abortions in the US are for people who already have children.

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So I ask you, which is more racist? Saying that black mothers cannot legal kill their black baby, or allowing a system that kills significantly more black babies in a year than slavery and Jim Crow ever did?
Firstly, abortion isn't killing babies. Killing babies is infanticide. Abortion is the termination of an embryo or foetus. Secondly, comparing abortion to pregnancy and babies under slavery both ludicrous and offensive.

I don't think you're understanding the point being made. For reasons - lower income rates, lower access to healthcare, poorer school districts - black people disproportionately consume abortion. Banning abortion is denying people a service that they want or need. Therefore, the people trying to pass the law are disproportionately denying a service to black people. And the thing is that it is not unlikely that this effect was one of the reasons, even if subconsciously, that this was passed and has some support. Conservatives have often relied on racialised attitudes in both gaining support and wanting to pass in the first place, laws - see the idea of a black "welfare queen" (also tapping into prejudice against the poor and single mothers there) to help justify cutting welfare in the 80s or the use of "scary black men" in passing harsh criminal justice laws.

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Originally Posted by xSashax View Post
When people say it’s “women’s rights” they should know it’s a “right” that doesn’t exist anywhere.
It exists as a concept. Like people can consider women's rights in Saudi Arabia or can choose to campaign for the ideal of expanding women's rights.


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Our constitution never said anything like “right to abortion” or “reproductive right”.
You're confusing constitutional rights with rights in general. Rights are just a concept. Rights can exist or not exist as a concept even if no constitution or law mentions them. There just not be a legal force to enforce them.

And actually according to the Supreme Court, the Constitution does provide some degree of right to an abortion. That's what Roe v Wade is. To quote Wikipedia, "the Court ruled that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental "right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion. It also ruled that this "right to privacy" is not absolute and must be balanced against the government's interests in protecting women's health and protecting prenatal life"

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Killing a live baby is cruel to me....
As above, abortion is not killing babies. It is terminating embryos and foetuses.

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and I know the governor of Alabama is a woman. So it’s not “men controlling women” like the media says.....
Internalised misogyny is a thing. As are strong but misguided religious convictions and political pressure.

The fact of the matter is that in reducing women's rights over their own pregnancy, the government is taking more control over women's bodies.
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Old Yesterday, 08:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Originally Posted by ProbsNotInteresting View Post
That's being a bit obtuse. The prosecution of doctors is there to force them not to provide abortions, therefore denying women abortions. You accidentally said mothers there when, of course, some women are not mothers yet when they have abortions - though, contrary to popular belief, a majority of abortions in the US are for people who already have children.
My point was that this bill isn't just an excuse to jail African-Americans, like Mars and others have asserted. This bill does indeed deny abortions, that's why we are talking about it.

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Firstly, abortion isn't killing babies. Killing babies is infanticide. Abortion is the termination of an embryo or foetus.
I'm sorry for using the language that everyone uses for unborn humans except for when they are trying to promote abortions. I'll be sure to correct the next expectant mother I come across when she tries to tell me that she's pregnant with a baby. No maam! I don't care what we as a society generally call what's in your uterus! You are pregnant with a fetus, which is just a simple clump of cells that you have a right to kill whenever you want, and be praised for doing so! Stop spreading that propaganda that you have an actual child, you filthy racist conservative scum! And don't you tell me whether it's a boy or a girl, because you have no right to define that fetus' gender!
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Secondly, comparing abortion to pregnancy and babies under slavery both ludicrous and offensive.
You done with the moral grandstanding? Because I've long learned to ignore posts that accuse me of being offensive without any backing.

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I don't think you're understanding the point being made. For reasons - lower income rates, lower access to healthcare, poorer school districts - black people disproportionately consume abortion. Banning abortion is denying people a service that they want or need. Therefore, the people trying to pass the law are disproportionately denying a service to black people.

And the thing is that it is not unlikely that this effect was one of the reasons, even if subconsciously, that this was passed and has some support.
Oh, "unconsciousness racism", I haven't heard that one used for awhile.
Everything you've expressed is based on the premise that you know that the secret cabal of conservatives are basing this entirely around racism. Are abortion laws in Norway, which are stricter than most states', also based around racism? What about the very similar South African law? I'm sure that's based in racism. What about the very strict Orthodox Jewish view of abortion? I'm sure those Jews are just a bunch of secret racists.
If anything, pro-life laws are promoted largely by appealing to religion, not race. Believe it or not, not everything in the world revolves around racism.

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Internalised misogyny is a thing. As are strong but misguided religious convictions and political pressure.
So Governor Ivey is an Uncle Tom to women? Or would that be an Aunt Tomita?

I'm sure glad I'm a white guy, because I can have almost any opinion I want without other being accused of being stupid and/or a traitor to my race and/or gender.
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I swear some right-wingers would burn their own house down to "own the libs".
Not really. I'm sure that makes sense to someone who observes American politics through the eyes of the internet. There are plenty of online conservative personalities who do exploit liberal dogmatism simply for the lols, but in terms of policy bills based on that mentality are rarely sent to the floor, never mind passed and made into law. I'll say the timing of this is based of two main factors. First, for the first time in memory the Supreme Court has a majority of pro-life judges. If there is any time to passed pro-life laws and potentially repeal Roe v. Wade, it's now. Secondly, the Left has recently gotten much more liberal on abortion. The Left used to mainly play the defensive, looking largely just to keep existing abortion laws of around 20 weeks. Perhaps they'll advocate for government funded abortions, but they've never much argued for legal abortions beyond the 20 week range. Now the Left is advocating abortions up until birth, with recent laws in NY and VA, as well as many 2020 candidates seemingly supporting such bills. You won't see this in the media, but the vast majority of Americans oppose up-to-birth abortions. The Left used to play the reasonable moderates in the abortion discussion, now they are playing the opposite extreme. The Right is exploiting this to try to gain support from those who liked prior abortion laws, but dislike abortion-til-births.

So perhaps the Right is doing this in response to liberals, but it's less "Yeahaw! Let's us go offend some libtards!" and more "they've shown their true colors, we can exploit this to gain support for our bill".

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Old Today, 01:59 AM   #20
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Default Re: Alabama bans abortion

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I'm sorry for using the language that everyone uses for unborn humans except for when they are trying to promote abortions. I'll be sure to correct the next expectant mother I come across when she tries to tell me that she's pregnant with a baby. No maam! I don't care what we as a society generally call what's in your uterus! You are pregnant with a fetus, which is just a simple clump of cells that you have a right to kill whenever you want, and be praised for doing so! Stop spreading that propaganda that you have an actual child, you filthy racist conservative scum! And don't you tell me whether it's a boy or a girl, because you have no right to define that fetus' gender!
I'd argue that the term baby is generally used by pregnant women who intend on birthing it because they intend for it to become a baby. In any case, what it is commonly called by random people isn't a terribly convincing argument when it comes to abortions. When it comes to abortion, it shouldn't matter what random people happen to call the average foetus or embryo but what it actually is - which is a foetus or embyro.

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You done with the moral grandstanding?
Nonsense rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Because I've long learned to ignore posts that accuse me of being offensive without any backing.
You really need me to elaborate on why that's a pretty terrible thing to say? Firstly, again, abortion is not killing babies so any comparison to actual baby killing is offensive. And comparing access to abortion, where a woman has control over her own body, to slavery in which a black slave's body was literally not their property is just disgusting really. Particularly, when babies born of slavery were legally the property of the owner, how often babies were a result of rape and the history of often-horrific gynocological experiments which were performed on enslaved women. It is also quite disturbing to equate women having control over their own bodies to the denial of rights to black women post-slavery - the non-consensual sterilisation of African-American people under racist eugenics programs in the early 20th century come to mind.

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Oh, "unconsciousness racism", I haven't heard that one used for awhile.
You realise that racism extends beyond people just wearing Klan uniforms, right?

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Everything you've expressed is based on the premise that you know that the secret cabal of conservatives are basing this entirely around racism.
Did I ever say that? I said that racism was likely one factor in wanting to pass and justifying passing such laws.

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Are abortion laws in Norway, which are stricter than most states', also based around racism? What about the very similar South African law? I'm sure that's based in racism. What about the very strict Orthodox Jewish view of abortion? I'm sure those Jews are just a bunch of secret racists.
You're ignoring the context. Norway doesn't have the same legacy of slavery and black oppression that the United States does or the legacy of colonialism and aparthied that South Africa does. Again, I never said that abortion restrictions are solely for racist reasons or that racist reasons are a part of all abortion laws.

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If anything, pro-life laws are promoted largely by appealing to religion, not race.
I can agree with that.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Believe it or not, not everything in the world revolves around racism.
Not a claim that anyone is making.

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So Governor Ivey is an Uncle Tom to women? Or would that be an Aunt Tomita?
Women can take actions that damage the rights of other women. I don't know how that's unreasonable to think. Whether it be for political reasons or a conservative religious ideology.

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I'm sure glad I'm a white guy, because I can have almost any opinion I want without other being accused of being stupid and/or a traitor to my race and/or gender.
You don't want to be spending time around the far-right and/or white nationalists then because they will accuse people of being exactly that.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Not really. I'm sure that makes sense to someone who observes American politics through the eyes of the internet. There are plenty of online conservative personalities who do exploit liberal dogmatism simply for the lols, but in terms of policy bills based on that mentality are rarely sent to the floor, never mind passed and made into law.
Perhaps not in terms of legislation actually passed - most of the Republicans are actually in government are sticking to the same old tax cuts and appeals to the Christian right. However, I think we do see this in voters. Part of the appeal of Trump was a disruptive, burn-everything down attitude and some voters simply didn't care about his lack of experience or knowledge in key areas. And I think a big reason for that was identity. Trump purposefully played into a white male identity politics that had been growing in the Republican base for a while. And there the idea was to assert the supremacy of that identity over the "other" - Millenials, liberal women, etc. - even if it was damaging in some areas.

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I'll say the timing of this is based of two main factors. First, for the first time in memory the Supreme Court has a majority of pro-life judges. If there is any time to passed pro-life laws and potentially repeal Roe v. Wade, it's now.
I agree with that. They are absolutely looking to weaken or overturn Roe v Wade. That has been the single most important goal of the conservative Christian Right for about 4 decades. Though, I wouldn't say that it's the first time there's been a anti-abortion rights majority - but an anti-abortion rights majority that is more conservative and strident enough to go against precedent.

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Secondly, the Left has recently gotten much more liberal on abortion.
Probably true.

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The Left used to mainly play the defensive, looking largely just to keep existing abortion laws of around 20 weeks. Perhaps they'll advocate for government funded abortions, but they've never much argued for legal abortions beyond the 20 week range.
That's underplaying the left-of-centre's previous commitment to abortion rights. The party previously wasn't as unified on abortion but it did push for further abortion rights. Both Democrats and Republicans have become more partisan - becoming unified behind their side on the abortion debate.

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Now the Left is advocating abortions up until birth, with recent laws in NY and VA, as well as many 2020 candidates seemingly supporting such bills.
More than before but it's not super new. The party has become more unified behind it. Though, if we are talking legislation, the largest changes in abortion rights have been going on for the past 5-10 years in states with Republican state legislatures and governors by trying to subvert Roe v Wade by putting onerous restrictions on abortion clinics (things like increasing their costs by forcing them to have unnecessary services, making women have ultrasounds before getting abortions, etc.) which have seen numerous closures of clinics in red states.

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You won't see this in the media, but the vast majority of Americans oppose up-to-birth abortions. The Left used to play the reasonable moderates in the abortion discussion, now they are playing the opposite extreme. The Right is exploiting this to try to gain support from those who liked prior abortion laws, but dislike abortion-til-births.
The right is using late-term abortion to try to make an argument to restrict all abortion. A plurality or majority of Americans oppose late-term abortions. However, a majority of Americans support first-term abortions. If anything, the Left is more aligned with what Americans actually think given that they're at least fighting for some abortion rights. And late-term abortions are largely misunderstood by people - they only make up a small percentage of abortions and the vast majority of them are for things that would risk a mothers life or where the potential child would have a very poor quality of life if they could live for any significant amount of time at all.

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So perhaps the Right is doing this in response to liberals, but it's less "Yeahaw! Let's us go offend some libtards!" and more "they've shown their true colors, we can exploit this to gain support for our bill".
And I'm going to flat out say that the Democrats are absolutely right to push for abortion rights and late-term abortion rights. What the majority of Americans think, shouldn't mean anything when it comes to fundamental rights over our own bodies.
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