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Old February 6th, 2018, 12:14 AM   #41
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Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?
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Old February 8th, 2018, 05:41 AM   #42
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Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?
I don't think it is supposed to be said that way. What sends people to hell is their choice to reject Him basically. So often when people choose to value sexuality, they reject the concept of being accountable to God.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 02:40 AM   #43
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Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?
Just curious but what proof do you have that they aren't?
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Old February 9th, 2018, 03:20 AM   #44
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Just curious but what proof do you have that they aren't?
innocent until proven guilty.
assume good, until demonstrated otherwise.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 11:34 AM   #45
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innocent until proven guilty.
assume good, until demonstrated otherwise.
Innocent until proven guilty is not assuming good until demonstrated otherwise. It is instead put in place in an attempt to prevent FALSE allegations from allowing arrests and fines and other punishments to someone who doesn't deserve them. Yes it is also sometimes used to help a guilty person get off charges with no punishment at all. But that wasn't what it was intended for. And in any case it is an American law (though certainly some other legal systems have it too) it has nothing at all to do with the higher moral law. Especially from a Christian perspective. From the Christian perspective we are all guilty (gays straight doesn't matter) it is only through accepting the free gift of grace from Jesus Christ that we can receive mercy rather than justice for our sin. But in order to receive that gift of grace you first have to admit to being a sinner. Which means you have to admit your guilt.

I mean you can choose not to believe any of that I am just giving you the Christian perspective in a sort of bare bones format. There is more to it than just that but its not a half bad summary.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 11:36 AM   #46
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innocent until proven guilty.
assume good, until demonstrated otherwise.
Oh also your original question already assumes guilt. As in they are guilty of being homosexual. What kind of punishment (if any at all) is deserved for being guilty of that was your question. So now to come back and say "well they aren't guilty of anything." Is sort of turning your original question back on itself and basically makes the question not worth asking because you have already assumed the answer. You're actually begging the question at that point. If you are not familiar with what begging the question is, I encourage you to look it up.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 06:42 PM   #47
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it not something that i can relate to, but thanks for providing your perspective.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 05:46 PM   #48
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Why do some christians say the gay and bi people are going to hell? What proof do they have?
Answer?

1st Corinthians 6:9-11
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (ESV translation)

Note that practicing homosexuality is but one category among many. And that it is about practicing homosexuality, not being being gay or not. But some people get confused.

As to if the word of the Bible is proof enough... Well for many Christians it is, me included

1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." - Francisco D'Anconia from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

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Old April 13th, 2018, 12:27 AM   #49
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Answer?

1st Corinthians 6:9-11
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (ESV translation)

Note that practicing homosexuality is but one category among many. And that it is about practicing homosexuality, not being being gay or not. But some people get confused.

As to if the word of the Bible is proof enough... Well for many Christians it is, me included
thanks for your reply.

i would never tell gay person that they couldn't have sex with another gay person.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 01:40 AM   #50
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thanks for your reply.

i would never tell gay person that they couldn't have sex with another gay person.
I think my parents are understanding about it more, I don't think they would say gay people are going to hell. But I also think they wouldn't like it if I was gay.


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Old April 13th, 2018, 08:44 AM   #51
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thanks for your reply.

i would never tell gay person that they couldn't have sex with another gay person.
No problem

I wouldn't necessarily tell them that either, but just point out to them that it goes against what the Bible says. It is not my task to tell them what to do or not to do, since I am not the authority. I would just be the messenger and the authority would be God. If they want to live accordingly, they will take it to heart. Maybe not right away, but sometime.

1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

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Old April 14th, 2018, 01:54 AM   #52
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i don't believe its wrong. i guess i need it to make sense beyond quoting the bible. the reason i say that is because people quote the bible justify all kind of things. it seem more like people believe whatever they want, then use the bible to tell other people they are wrong or bad or going to hell.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 07:41 AM   #53
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i don't believe its wrong. i guess i need it to make sense beyond quoting the bible. the reason i say that is because people quote the bible justify all kind of things. it seem more like people believe whatever they want, then use the bible to tell other people they are wrong or bad or going to hell.
There are more specific reasons, partly because of disease controversies.

Think about it from a historical perspective, people who sleep around innthe ancient past for sti’s and std’s, what ancient people’s would’ve observed was death of loved ones and disease without them knowing an exact cause, they didn’t know about viruses, bacteria and prions (misfolded and defective proteins). The ancients just called it “uncleanliness” and in modern day we are going to have to return to prudish standards because antibiotics are beginning to fail humanity especially with Super gonorrhea and syphilis on the rise.

To get one of those diseases is a slow and painful and expensive medical process.

Also from the Christian perspective and I guess from some psychological/sociology studies on marriage happiness and satisfaction and why people cheat, it has been shown that people who are promiscuous or have had positive sexual encounters with the person(s) they did not marry often reflect on alternative partner memories emotionally and sexually, especially if the marriage is entering a rough patch.

Even if it’s not a rough time in the relationship, there is a expectation that all relationships are always going to have that emotional high and that once the honeymoon phase of a relationship wears off, it means or is interpreted by one or both individuals that the love is gone hence breakup time.


It cheapens the concept of emotional and spiritual and physical bonding between two entities, symbolizing the joining of Christ to the body of the Church. Any symbolism that argues a weakening of that bond is implying weakness in God’s promise to redeem humanity from its evil nature.

Now keep in mind, all the Abrahamic faiths use the word Good = in terms of perfect, and Evil in terms of imperfect.



In modern day we have the pill and shot, but understand that by taking them we do pollute the environment by peeing out estrogens into the water system and increase risk of having a stroke.

There are a handful of teen girls even on YouTube who have testified that medical products like Gardasil and birth control pills gave them a debilitating stroke or paralysis.

I believe in 2013 too, there was a defect in birth control drug manufacturing too which mispackaged the placebo pill order with the ones containing the hormones, so a lot of girls and women got pregnant thinking they were having safe bearback sex but were not in reality.

It’s a very awkward position to be impregnated by a guy categorized as a good fling physically, but definitely not the type to start a family with, the other option is abortion or single motherhood.

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Old April 14th, 2018, 04:58 PM   #54
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so you're saying gay sex is wrong too. WOW that really susprises me that you would say that.

Are you are expecting them to somehow change or pretend to be not gay, then if they want sex they need to marry somebody that is opposite sex; somebody nice, but not somebody the really love. that just seems like they would be faking everything so they appear normal, but not be who they really are deep inside. It kinda seems like your say gay people are broken people, and they need to fix themselves.

That seems like a lot to expect from gay people. from what i've know, being gay is something people are born to be, kinda like being right or left handed, or having a specific eye color. these are things people can't change no matter how much they try. imagine if some holy book said "only people who are right handed are acceptable". that would be crazy, but lots of right handed people would believe it and tell left handed people they are going to hell.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 08:16 PM   #55
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so you're saying gay sex is wrong too. WOW that really susprises me that you would say that.

Are you are expecting them to somehow change or pretend to be not gay, then if they want sex they need to marry somebody that is opposite sex; somebody nice, but not somebody the really love. that just seems like they would be faking everything so they appear normal, but not be who they really are deep inside. It kinda seems like your say gay people are broken people, and they need to fix themselves.

That seems like a lot to expect from gay people. from what i've know, being gay is something people are born to be, kinda like being right or left handed, or having a specific eye color. these are things people can't change no matter how much they try. imagine if some holy book said "only people who are right handed are acceptable". that would be crazy, but lots of right handed people would believe it and tell left handed people they are going to hell.
But that’s not what I’m saying either.

We don’t know what causes homosexuality, science has suggested that the environment and mutations in the DNA have a huge factor to play in sexual identity, sexual orientation, so I think it’s wrong to say it’s “choice”.

Which is the common current mainstream interpretation of the faith.


For instance the faith has to reinterpret certain concepts such as the intersex gender; individuals who are at a cellular level XY in chromosomal levels. But they physically could have female genitals due to how the physical human body develops.


Gender and sexual orientation are too simplified in most modern day understanding and that’s part of the problem.



Now my personal views on things is that gender is a partial spiritual and also physical phenomena, and a level before gender exists everyone comes from the same source from what created all things, hence a infinity.

There are many instances where I am questioning certain current interpretation of Christianity because of personal experiences. Also the phenomena of paranormal hauntings is something that does not always make sense with some verses of scripture about what happens when you pass away. Some feel your allowed to linger, others believe you cross over immediately upon death.


And for non-believers, if they truly are non-believers, then as long as their earthly rights aren’t being infringed upon in life in the here and now then where really is the problem?

It seems to me most strife and trouble occurs at a point where a minority group has real lawful action taken against them at a discriminatory level; but that’s always been a case for politics and law, not faith.


To be fair Christianity is so strict you’re not even supposed to make a for-profit business selling Christian themed merchandise because that’s why Jesus flipped the money changers out of the temple.


So there’s a lot of strict stuff to Christianity, that everyone doesn’t practice right.

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Old April 15th, 2018, 05:11 PM   #56
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so you're saying gay sex is wrong too. WOW that really susprises me that you would say that.
The world and its inhabitants are pretty diverse. This will not be the first time you will be surprised

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Are you are expecting them to somehow change or pretend to be not gay,
No. They do not need to pretend to be something they are not.

And if they want to change, then they can do so. But I will not be making any decision for them on the matter.

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then if they want sex they need to marry somebody that is opposite sex;
That can also be said of people who wait until marriage

And there are many good reasons to wait until you are married to have sex other than "The Bible says so"

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It kinda seems like your say gay people are broken people, and they need to fix themselves.
They don't need to do anything. Nobody is forcing anyone or making any choices for anyone.

Are gay people broken sexually? Sure. How about others? Sexual abuse victims are broken sexually. Sexual aggressors are broken sexually. Playboys are broken sexually. Heck, I am broken sexually.

Are some people more broken than others? Obviously.

The challenging question is: What if you never experience 'healing' even if you desperately want it? That is a tough one and something I don't have an answer to.

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That seems like a lot to expect from gay people.
Of course. God's standard is called perfection. That is something that no human can achieve, no matter how hard they try. Works will not get you into Heaven.

The good news is that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross and saved us from sure damnation.

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from what i've know, being gay is something people are born to be, kinda like being right or left handed, or having a specific eye color.
Every trait in human beings supposedly has a genetic and environmental factor, in differing amounts. Eye color would be one predominantly affected by genes, but the environment can induce slight changes too.

I am not aware of many studies that go into how the balance is with homosexuality, but one thing I do know is that there are numerous cases of identical twins having lived in the same environment, but one is straight and the other is gay.

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these are things people can't change no matter how much they try.
People have changed their sexual preferences over time. That is not at all abnormal and there are many cases of people making a shift in either direction.
Also, changes can happen within a gender, for example starting to like a different type of girl or different type of guy.

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imagine if some holy book said "only people who are right handed are acceptable". that would be crazy, but lots of right handed people would believe it and tell left handed people they are going to hell.
That would be crazy, yes. There is not an ideal 'handedness'.
But there is a strong case to be made for the concept of an ideal sexual relationship. There is a lot of hard data on the superiority of monogamy, for example. I have not read up on studies on sexual orientation for a long time, though.

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And for non-believers, if they truly are non-believers, then as long as their earthly rights arenít being infringed upon in life in the here and now then where really is the problem?
This.

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To be fair Christianity is so strict youíre not even supposed to make a for-profit business selling Christian themed merchandise because thatís why Jesus flipped the money changers out of the temple.
To be fair, it could also mean that they were charging rip-off prices for some special "temple-approved" sacrificial animals.
The Bible is not anti-profit. Matthew 25:18 and onwards has a story where an employer praises his servants for making profits and scolds one for not doing so.

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So thereís a lot of strict stuff to Christianity, that everyone doesnít practice right.
True. And there is also many denominations that make up rules that cannot be found in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." - Francisco D'Anconia from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

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Old April 15th, 2018, 08:31 PM   #57
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hi music lover, what you say is different than the church we go to. what you say is the god has lots and lots conditions that people need to meet, otherwise they are rejected by god. and depending who you talk to, and what church, those conditions are different. each seems to say they are more right then others.

the church i go suggests that god accepts everybody unconditionally. nobody goes to hell, if such a place even exists.

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Old April 16th, 2018, 04:35 AM   #58
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The world and its inhabitants are pretty diverse. This will not be the first time you will be surprised



No. They do not need to pretend to be something they are not.

And if they want to change, then they can do so. But I will not be making any decision for them on the matter.



That can also be said of people who wait until marriage

And there are many good reasons to wait until you are married to have sex other than "The Bible says so"



They don't need to do anything. Nobody is forcing anyone or making any choices for anyone.

Are gay people broken sexually? Sure. How about others? Sexual abuse victims are broken sexually. Sexual aggressors are broken sexually. Playboys are broken sexually. Heck, I am broken sexually.

Are some people more broken than others? Obviously.

The challenging question is: What if you never experience 'healing' even if you desperately want it? That is a tough one and something I don't have an answer to.



Of course. God's standard is called perfection. That is something that no human can achieve, no matter how hard they try. Works will not get you into Heaven.

The good news is that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross and saved us from sure damnation.



Every trait in human beings supposedly has a genetic and environmental factor, in differing amounts. Eye color would be one predominantly affected by genes, but the environment can induce slight changes too.

I am not aware of many studies that go into how the balance is with homosexuality, but one thing I do know is that there are numerous cases of identical twins having lived in the same environment, but one is straight and the other is gay.



People have changed their sexual preferences over time. That is not at all abnormal and there are many cases of people making a shift in either direction.
Also, changes can happen within a gender, for example starting to like a different type of girl or different type of guy.



That would be crazy, yes. There is not an ideal 'handedness'.
But there is a strong case to be made for the concept of an ideal sexual relationship. There is a lot of hard data on the superiority of monogamy, for example. I have not read up on studies on sexual orientation for a long time, though.



This.



To be fair, it could also mean that they were charging rip-off prices for some special "temple-approved" sacrificial animals.
The Bible is not anti-profit. Matthew 25:18 and onwards has a story where an employer praises his servants for making profits and scolds one for not doing so.



True. And there is also many denominations that make up rules that cannot be found in the Bible.
Actually, Matthew 25:18, is of itself a parable talking about growing the faith and uses the capitalistic profit metaphor, to illustrate a point because listeners needed to have a concept to understand and relate to.

Profit isnít in of itself bad no, but there are other versus of scripture where the laws of the market are not followed.

I forget where exactly but there is a verse of scripture where a business is forced to take a monetary loss on product not fully paid for according to earthly law, and it is implied that a resentful heart about material things, serves mammon.

It creates a contradiction if you interpret Matthew they way you have.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 04:41 AM   #59
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Actually, Matthew 25:18, is of itself a parable talking about growing the faith and uses the capitalistic profit metaphor, to illustrate a point because listeners needed to have a concept to understand and relate to.
Yes, it is a parable. And I still think that it portrays profit (assuming it is honestly earned) as good.

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Profit isnít in of itself bad no, but there are other versus of scripture where the laws of the market are not followed.

I forget where exactly but there is a verse of scripture where a business is forced to take a monetary loss on product not fully paid for according to earthly law, and it is implied that a resentful heart about material things, serves mammon.
I remember a few verses that could be this, but none that fit like a glove into your description. If you find the specific verse you mean I'd be glad to talk more on this

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It creates a contradiction if you interpret Matthew they way you have.
Where is the contradiction? I do not find any.

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hi music lover, what you say is different than the church we go to. what you say is the god has lots and lots conditions that people need to meet, otherwise they are rejected by god.
This is only half of what I am saying. If Jesus didn't die for our sins being perfect would be the only way to get into Heaven. This would be impossible for anyone to do.

Because Jesus died on the cross, we have the option of accepting him as our saviour and go to Heaven through him.

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and depending who you talk to, and what church, those conditions are different. each seems to say they are more right then others.
That is why there is a bible verse 1st Thessalonians 5:21
"but test everything; hold fast what is good."

This applies to what a pastor preaches and what fellow Christians speak. The arguments that are good will hold up.

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the church i go suggests that god accepts everybody unconditionally. nobody goes to hell, if such a place even exists.
God accepts everyone, but not everyone will accept God.
The Bible is clear that not everyone is saved and some people go to Hell (or whatever you want to name it).

Examples:

Matthew 25:41-43
ďThen he will say to those on his left, ĎDepart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.í"

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-9
"since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away fromb the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

Matthew 3:11-12
"ďI [John the baptist] baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.Ē"

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Matthew 13:41-43
"The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

If a church wants to say that everyone is saved and nobody goes to Hell, they have to literally reject the recorded teachings of Jesus that can be found in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." - Francisco D'Anconia from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

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Old April 16th, 2018, 03:03 PM   #60
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Matthew 19:24


For one creates a contradiction with the other passage of Matthew you mentioned above if interpreted as a justification of profit.


Also notice how those who interpret the justification of profit do not place limit caps on to a beg the question scenario of at what point does profit become the sin of greed?

In the same way that sex is not inherently evil, but when done as a philosophy to chase hedonism and pleasure, does it become imbalanced sin because one no longer is it about chasing and building a loving relationship with God or fellow humans, but it becomes a thing of reproductive status and worldly exemplification of power, pride, and control.

The oneflesh, means oneflesh too, sex need not always result in offspring to be scantioned by God. Nor is it literally the amount of genitalia that have experienced touching other genitalalia...if that were the case the concept of remarriage would be banned too.


These concepts are not brought up in mostly churches Iíve gone too. Itís pastor speaks, congregation listens, nobody dares speak on a cerebral level.
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