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Old April 24th, 2019, 03:50 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

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All 3 examples are proxy conflicts of wider Cold Wars between warring ideologies rather than separate examples of secularism vs puritanism.

Syria's infighting is between the Iran-backed Assad regime and the Saudi-backed Kurdish separatists: ISIS just sort of capitalised on the conflict to take over swathes of land (though they, too, have many Saudi connections). Saudi Arabia and Iran couldn't care less how Syrians actually practice their faith, they just want their buddies in control of the state so that they have allies against the other. They learned it from the previous Cold War in fact which brings me to...

Afghanistan! The USSR-backed Afghani government vs US-trained Mujahadeen insurgents whose religious fanaticism vs the secular strain of the government was rife proxy ground for the predominantly-Christian USA to show its superiority to the atheist USSR. Think the Kremlin or Washington were experts on the intricacies of Islamic sects and progressive movements? Na, they want those sweet Middle Eastern allies baby! Of course, this was hardly their first proxy conflict. Only a couple decades earlier was...

Iran! When the democratically-elected Prime Minister of Iran declared that their oil reserves would be renationalised in 1952 and taken away from British and American companies, Daddy Eisenhower was not a happy bunny. Within a year, the ELECTED government was overturned thanks to a Shah-led coup with British and American resources and troops, leading to the (admittedly secular) singular rule of the Shah alone. With all moderate and legitimate opposition destroyed in that coup, the biggest anti-Shah figure left in Iran happens to be the ultra-conservative Ayatollah Khomeini who whips up public disdain for the anti-democratic system and overthrows the Shah in 1979. Who benefits most from a new anti-USA state in the region? The USSR.

Religion has a very complex role in the history of many states, let alone the Middle East. Whilst it's very true that many autocrats genuinely believe in the authoritarian doctrines they preach, they also CHOOSE to believe those doctrines for the power it gives them. Do you think House al-Saud won control in the Arab Peninsula because of widespread belief in Wahhabism? No. They conquered the region by force and declared that it was either THEIR sect or death for apostasy. Do you think Iran CHOSE to be ruled so strictly by Sharia? Khomeini enforced his views on the country after liberating them from an equally oppressive dictator. This isn't helped when more powerful nations use these countries as pawns in their power plays, placing puritanical factions in power as an unforeseen consequence.
These 3 countries have been fighting from even unwritten time of at least 6000 years. It is all really tribal.
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Old April 24th, 2019, 06:18 PM   #82
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These 3 countries have been fighting from even unwritten time of at least 6000 years. It is all really tribal.
Almost as if they were forced together due to arbitrary lines drawn in the sand after the French and British retreated from the region in the 1930s. Plus, Iran would have likely deposed its Shah and become a pretty homogeneous state if not for the 1952 coup. Syria's biggest issue is the fact that the Kurds want a homeland and refuse to assimilate into the states they have been assigned to. That's a problem for the states that currently exist in the region to sole and doesn't warrant Western intervention. Hell, it's like the Native American tribes asking for their own reservations within US states. As for Afghanistan, it's impossible to determine what the people want there anymore thanks to decades of proxy war and Taliban control.
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Old April 24th, 2019, 07:20 PM   #83
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Almost as if they were forced together due to arbitrary lines drawn in the sand after the French and British retreated from the region in the 1930s. Plus, Iran would have likely deposed its Shah and become a pretty homogeneous state if not for the 1952 coup. Syria's biggest issue is the fact that the Kurds want a homeland and refuse to assimilate into the states they have been assigned to. That's a problem for the states that currently exist in the region to sole and doesn't warrant Western intervention. Hell, it's like the Native American tribes asking for their own reservations within US states. As for Afghanistan, it's impossible to determine what the people want there anymore thanks to decades of proxy war and Taliban control.
Can you read? I said they have been fighting for THOUSANDS of years, WAY before England and France existed. I think like my Dad and his friends. Sit back pull out and just let them fight.
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Old April 25th, 2019, 08:30 AM   #84
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Can you read? I said they have been fighting for THOUSANDS of years, WAY before England and France existed. I think like my Dad and his friends. Sit back pull out and just let them fight.
̶N̶o̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶d̶a̶d̶ ̶h̶u̶n̶. To write off the region as 'fighting for thousands of year' ignores the fact that every region was 'fighting for thousands of years' before circa. the 19th century when borders began to become more solid. Even then, Northern Ireland had its Troubles in the 1970s, Serbia has had its Kosovo conflicts since the 90s, Spain went into full civil war over the right of its internal states to be independent (and even now Catalonia still fights to be its own state) among plenty of other Western parallels to Middle Eastern conflicts. The only issue is that when it comes to the Arab Peninsula you dismiss it as infighting sandpeople and when it comes to the West you seemingly respect it as 'people fighting for their own self-governance.'

Furthermore, you say 'before England and France existed'. Well, let me tell YOU that before 1066 (when William the Conqueror unified his entire kingdom) England was...a region of warring kingdoms and tribes all struggling for dominance. Even then, let any history book tell you that England has never sat idly by for hundreds of years since, considering plenty of wars and battles over the crown, between far-opposed factions.
As for France, they too have had hundreds of years of turmoil, revolution and regression back to monarchy and feudalism. France as you know it today was formed only around 50 years ago after government after government fell from internal turmoil and civil unrest.

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Old April 26th, 2019, 12:33 AM   #85
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

Western culture is becoming more and more gender equal and Islam is a misogynist culture so it doesnt work in that regard
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Old April 26th, 2019, 01:26 AM   #86
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

More interesting question would be Is Islam compatible with ANY other culture than Islam itself. Like can they coexist without major violence and harm with say buddhist or Hindu or what ever society. So far it seems that answer is no
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Old April 26th, 2019, 08:41 AM   #87
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

If anyone believes that Islam has a place on earth anywhere other than the 51 current muslim countries (especially the west), then read these

Quran (3:56)
Quran (4:76)
Quran (4:34)

That should be enough. (I know there are many more disgusting verses but those are these ones I could remember.) Oh, and Aisha was 6.

Runaway
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Old April 26th, 2019, 03:32 PM   #88
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

I mean Islam is bigoted and misogynistic but it’s not like all of them are like that
Most of them are fairly normal caring people
It’s the religion that doesn’t fit, not all the people
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Old April 26th, 2019, 03:39 PM   #89
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

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I mean Islam is bigoted and misogynistic but it’s not like all of them are like that
Most of them are fairly normal caring people
It’s the religion that doesn’t fit, not all the people
Exactly this. I don't despise the individuals. Most Muslims I've met are nice, but I do despise the so called "religion" of theirs.

"Hang in there" is the last thing you should be saying to a suicidal person.
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Old April 26th, 2019, 06:07 PM   #90
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More interesting question would be Is Islam compatible with ANY other culture than Islam itself. Like can they coexist without major violence and harm with say buddhist or Hindu or what ever society. So far it seems that answer is no
Given that many (most) wars are about religion and all major religions in the world have been or currently are involved in religion-related wars, it begs the question if any religion is compatible in a society with other religions.
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Old April 26th, 2019, 06:53 PM   #91
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

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I mean Islam is bigoted and misogynistic but it’s not like all of them are like that
Most of them are fairly normal caring people
It’s the religion that doesn’t fit, not all the people
If u think about it, Christianity is bigoted and misogynistic too. Ultimately its all about how people choose to interpret things and lead their lives.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-harm-children

There is bound to be many issues when it comes to religion as a lot of those texts were written in ancient times where things/culture are very different from now. For example, the bible espouses to not spare the rod and spoil the child but that is clearly illegal in many countries today.

As far as I know, many Muslims scholars also teach of the need to follow the law of the land and if they feel that they are oppressed they should move elsewhere. Also, it must be remembered that there are many factions in Islam and not all of them share the same believes or teachings.

We are all slaves in this new age.

Last edited by bentheplayer; April 26th, 2019 at 06:57 PM.
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Old April 27th, 2019, 01:33 AM   #92
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If u think about it, Christianity is bigoted and misogynistic too. Ultimately its all about how people choose to interpret things and lead their lives.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-harm-children

There is bound to be many issues when it comes to religion as a lot of those texts were written in ancient times where things/culture are very different from now. For example, the bible espouses to not spare the rod and spoil the child but that is clearly illegal in many countries today.

As far as I know, many Muslims scholars also teach of the need to follow the law of the land and if they feel that they are oppressed they should move elsewhere. Also, it must be remembered that there are many factions in Islam and not all of them share the same believes or teachings.
Except its not though, look at the church today
You can get churches fully accepting LGBT, many around the world are led by women
Nothing in Christianity specifically says women are worth less than men the way islam does
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Old April 27th, 2019, 02:16 AM   #93
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Given that many (most) wars are about religion and all major religions in the world have been or currently are involved in religion-related wars, it begs the question if any religion is compatible in a society with other religions.
Christians in USA and elsewhere live peacefully with Jews. Buddhists and Taoist live peacefully together. Shinto and Buddhism coexist without any problems.
In Germany some people are catholic and some are protestant and no problems again.

When it comes to my mind that there has been only one place on earth during modern times where large amounts of muslims lived peacefully with others who were mainly christian and that was Soviet Union. Where all religions but Communism were persecuted.
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Old April 27th, 2019, 06:39 AM   #94
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Christians in USA and elsewhere live peacefully with Jews. Buddhists and Taoist live peacefully together. Shinto and Buddhism coexist without any problems.
In Germany some people are catholic and some are protestant and no problems again.

When it comes to my mind that there has been only one place on earth during modern times where large amounts of muslims lived peacefully with others who were mainly christian and that was Soviet Union. Where all religions but Communism were persecuted.
Muslims in the USA and elsewhere live in relative peace with Jewish people (most incidents of antisemitism are not committed my Muslims in these areas).

Catholics and Protestants don't live peacefully in Northern Ireland (note the recent murder by a female member of the New IRA).

Buddhists and Hindus are involved in many conflicts with each other or other religious groups throughout Asia and Africa.

It is true Islam is involved in proportionally more conflicts than other religions, but it's a long stretch to say Islam is incompatible with any other religion.
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Old April 27th, 2019, 09:17 AM   #95
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Except its not though, look at the church today
You can get churches fully accepting LGBT, many around the world are led by women
Nothing in Christianity specifically says women are worth less than men the way islam does
It is easy to point at churches who accept LGBT or who allow females to lead while ignoring the rest who don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homosexuality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Christianity

Look up the New Testament household code.

Also doesn't the bible state that the wife should submit to her husband?

Sure one could argue that they have equal worth just different gender roles. But when one is asked to submit to another, doesn't it show that one is worth less than the other? Its just merely a question of semantics.

We are all slaves in this new age.
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Old April 27th, 2019, 11:22 AM   #96
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Muslims in the USA and elsewhere live in relative peace with Jewish people (most incidents of antisemitism are not committed my Muslims in these areas).

Catholics and Protestants don't live peacefully in Northern Ireland (note the recent murder by a female member of the New IRA).

Buddhists and Hindus are involved in many conflicts with each other or other religious groups throughout Asia and Africa.

It is true Islam is involved in proportionally more conflicts than other religions, but it's a long stretch to say Islam is incompatible with any other religion.
Relative peace.... Is like they fight and terrorize each other only every second week?
I never said that there is no religous violence generally. I said that for every other religion it is possible to live in peace not in relative peace but in peace. But for pious muslim it is honor to explode yourself in crowd of people.
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Old April 27th, 2019, 11:54 AM   #97
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Relative peace.... Is like they fight and terrorize each other only every second week?
I never said that there is no religous violence generally. I said that for every other religion it is possible to live in peace not in relative peace but in peace. But for pious muslim it is honor to explode yourself in crowd of people.
Forgive me, I generally don't speak in absolutes. If I were to say x and y live a peaceful coexistence, you would only have to find a single case of conflict to deny x and y live in peaceful coexistence. What you're doing is called the definitional sulk.

I wouldn't say Christians and Jewish people live peacefully, as an absolute. They live relatively peacefully, in some sectors of society, at some points in history. Certainly the KKK and neo-nazis, who generally identify as Christians, don't live peacefully with Jews.

You also make deft use of the red herring. In your previous posts, you talked about Muslims; that is, Muslims in general. Now you change it to "pious" Muslims. Big difference. And in fact, it would be more accurate to say 'Muslim extremists' engage in suicide bombings.

Do you agree that non-extremists Muslims can live peacefully with people of other religions?
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Old April 27th, 2019, 01:16 PM   #98
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Forgive me, I generally don't speak in absolutes. If I were to say x and y live a peaceful coexistence, you would only have to find a single case of conflict to deny x and y live in peaceful coexistence. What you're doing is called the definitional sulk.

I wouldn't say Christians and Jewish people live peacefully, as an absolute. They live relatively peacefully, in some sectors of society, at some points in history. Certainly the KKK and neo-nazis, who generally identify as Christians, don't live peacefully with Jews.

You also make deft use of the red herring. In your previous posts, you talked about Muslims; that is, Muslims in general. Now you change it to "pious" Muslims. Big difference. And in fact, it would be more accurate to say 'Muslim extremists' engage in suicide bombings.

Do you agree that non-extremists Muslims can live peacefully with people of other religions?
If muslim is non extremist he/she is not a real muslim. There are people who are muslim and then people who are not muslim in true sense. Sure we have people who have been born into some religious groups but who personally dont give a flying fuck about religious rules or anything like that.
But Islam embraces violence and terror and as long as someone practices that religion this person is ticking time bomb.

But even more important than true believer vs not so true believer is value set that comes with certain religion. Muslim people in general have values that are compatible with Islam and therefore noncompatible with other value systems like western for example.
Its embraced to steal from kuffar its embraced to murder them its embraced to rape them and its embraced to be dishonest asshole.
Muslim are not only group of people who generally speaking are disgusting filth if and if i look them trough lens of Judeo Christian values. Hindus of India are one group for plethora or reasons. (just to name one)
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Old April 28th, 2019, 07:22 AM   #99
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Default Re: Is Islam compatible with Western civilization?

Since this entire thread now consists of a few people yelling at each other and spewing ideas reminiscent of 1930's Germany, lets talk about some Christian genocide- that of the Native Americans. Also, since it's usually white Protestants committing domestic terrorism against other religions, why aren't we saying it's them who's incompatible?
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Old April 28th, 2019, 04:02 PM   #100
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Since this entire thread now consists of a few people yelling at each other and spewing ideas reminiscent of 1930's Germany, lets talk about some Christian genocide- that of the Native Americans. Also, since it's usually white Protestants committing domestic terrorism against other religions, why aren't we saying it's them who's incompatible?
While I don't agree with some of the posts here, I don't hear anyone "yelling" at one another. In fact, given the nature of the subject, it's been a fairly civil exchange, with strongly opposing opinions expressed, but without ad hominem attacks.

Look up Goodwin's Law re: "spewing ideas reminiscent of 1930's Germany."

If you want to talk about Christian genocide and White Protestant terrorism, valid subjects, that should be a different thread. This one is about Islam. Note the title of the thread.

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