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Old February 11th, 2006, 03:36 PM   #21
kolte
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well it just makes me kinda laugh cuz there really giving a horrid name to there religion, i don't think they reolize how bad there making Islam seem right now.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 13th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #22
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If people just heard of what Hajj is like, they'd understand mainstream Islam...

I think it's time for Muslim youths to stop hating, and start realizing what their religion is all about. Where are the peaceful Muslim religous leaders in the Middle East?

As always- None of my statements are evaluated by the FDA.

My advice is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any diseases unless prescribed by a health practitioner. All information is provided for educational purposes only and should not replace the advice of your medical doctor.

(but your medical doctor will probably end up killing you )
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Old February 13th, 2006, 04:13 PM   #23
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I agree with you completly. Its really all about controll, the muslim leaders are controlling everyone, not letting them make there own choices, thats what freedom is all about, thats why there not free.....religion.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 15th, 2006, 12:05 AM   #24
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Well, the cartoons were in a newspaper, so that's freedom of the press on freedom of speech. In US different rules apply to the two. Shouting fire in a crowded theater is wrong. Writing about it is never wrong. As for Kofi Anan our esteemed leader of the United nations who said that freedom of speach is not a license to say insensative things, actually it is exactly a license to say incesative things. Salmon Rushdie (famous author who had a death sentance put on him by Iran for a book he wrote, since retracted) says its easy to get behind free speach that you agree with, its much harder to defend the KKK. I don't like the KKK, I think those prusion blue girls are being exploited by their hatemongering parents, but their RIGHT to say and print those things is a Right. Its not a privledge that can be take away like driving a car, its not a license. Oh, and our supreem court has extende the freedom of press rights to internet pages, like blogs. So you can say whatever you want on your own website, (as long as you pay for it. VT owns this site so they can restrict the content, which is also their right to free speech to not be forced to say hateful porongraphic things they don't want to say, so don't wine about not being able to say whatever you want on this site, get your own and then you can say whatever you want.
And welshlad, appeasment didn't work with Hitler, it didn't work with Stalin, it won't work with the radical extreemist whabi muslims. If you surrender your rights because your intimidated, or worried about how others might react, then you don't have them any more. The terrorists win and you loose. And by the way, they are rioting over grainy pictures of a pig squeeling contest in france, (sounds cruel to the pigs) and their mullahs are telling them it is a picture of Muhamad having sex with a pigs. Appernetly the real cartoons wern't all that bad even to muslems so they had to lie about them to get people stirred up.
Turkey was the first country to give women their right to vote and the voting age in Iran is 16 (but you can only vote for old man aprooved candidates). So its not Islam that is bad.
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Old February 15th, 2006, 01:25 AM   #25
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You are right webbeardthepirate, Islam is not bad. Hints why we have said its sad how they make there religion look so bad, they are misrepresenting a good thing. I think that we would be more understanding of there anger, however unecessary, if it was jesus in those cartoons, I think we would be very angry indeed. Expressing the right of freedom of press and speech has its limitations true. and we have to look at this situation like this. are these cartoons inflicting the rights of other people? the answer is no, so its allowed. to yell fire in a crowed building is inflicting on the rights of other poeple. Not in a manner of freedom of speech, but you are imposing on there god given right of safty, you are affecting the public peace, affecting the companies business etc. you have to look at things logicly and democraticly (not as in the party but the government) I agree with you again I must say, its great when another debator shows up hope you stay and welcome to vt.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 15th, 2006, 10:24 PM   #26
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It was mentioned within the first few posts:

Freedom of Speech.

Unfortunatly, we haven't quite mastered that concept. However, there is one simple, little thing that most of the Muslims seem to be forgetting.

Newspapers are allowed to critise politics.

Sadly, the Muslim way of doing things is closly governed by their religion, so the two are almost one-in-the-same. (No seperation of church and state, yet.) They saw the comic as a direct assult on their religion, and seemed not to pause and consider that it might be commenting on their politics, and the fact that they're tied so closely in with their religion.

(It seems like a bit of running around in circles, but that's the best way I can put it.)
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Old February 15th, 2006, 11:13 PM   #27
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muslims are getting people to hate them more and more. someday someone is going to start a mass genocidal attack on them to shut them up.
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Old February 15th, 2006, 11:27 PM   #28
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News papers are allowed to critisize anything, and support anything. This includes religeon, politics, clothing style, movies and plays, and anything else you can think of. This why it is called a freedom, and Congress shall make no law impeding the free excersize there of.

Comercial speach is regulated in an effort to protect consumers from fraudulant claims. But if you put the claims in a book, the governemnt can do nothing. The book "Health Cures they don't want you to know about" is a good example. The book is filled with fraud and missinformation that can even be dangerous, but they can't pull the book, because it is a book. T
hey can regulate what is shown on tellevision or said on radio because the government holds the public airwaves in trust for the people. Incedently, they own the radio waves used by your cell phone and have a right to listen to everything you say with one because your using the public airwaves. They don't need probable cause, they don't need a warrent. They do need the signal encryptian key used to spread spectrum your digital phone call, and they don't have it, SO THEY CLAIM.

Anyways freedom of the press is absolute. You can advocate seperation of the races, eutneasia of the sick and old, sterilization of the retarded or disabled, using owels as suppositories, that you think the holy grail is a woman, infavor of gay marriage, that president bush is the source of all bad things that happen, or anything else you might imagine.

Some people think that your freedom of expression is curtailed if you hurt some one, or offend them. It isn't. If you want to put it in a book, or a newspaper, or a website, your free to do it. Anyone who wants to take that away from you is your enemy. Without this freedom you're already dead.
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Old February 16th, 2006, 12:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
News papers are allowed to critisize anything, and support anything. This includes religeon, politics, clothing style, movies and plays, and anything else you can think of. This why it is called a freedom, and Congress shall make no law impeding the free excersize there of.
thats all well and good, but its not as free as its made out to be. they can only publish the truth, if they publish lies about someeone they can be sued for slander, and have to make a retraction.

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Old February 16th, 2006, 02:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbeardthepirate
News papers are allowed to critisize anything, and support anything. This includes religeon, politics, clothing style, movies and plays, and anything else you can think of. This why it is called a freedom, and Congress shall make no law impeding the free excersize there of.

Comercial speach is regulated in an effort to protect consumers from fraudulant claims. But if you put the claims in a book, the governemnt can do nothing. The book "Health Cures they don't want you to know about" is a good example. The book is filled with fraud and missinformation that can even be dangerous, but they can't pull the book, because it is a book. T
hey can regulate what is shown on tellevision or said on radio because the government holds the public airwaves in trust for the people. Incedently, they own the radio waves used by your cell phone and have a right to listen to everything you say with one because your using the public airwaves. They don't need probable cause, they don't need a warrent. They do need the signal encryptian key used to spread spectrum your digital phone call, and they don't have it, SO THEY CLAIM.

Anyways freedom of the press is absolute. You can advocate seperation of the races, eutneasia of the sick and old, sterilization of the retarded or disabled, using owels as suppositories, that you think the holy grail is a woman, infavor of gay marriage, that president bush is the source of all bad things that happen, or anything else you might imagine.

Some people think that your freedom of expression is curtailed if you hurt some one, or offend them. It isn't. If you want to put it in a book, or a newspaper, or a website, your free to do it. Anyone who wants to take that away from you is your enemy. Without this freedom you're already dead.
we allready know its our freedom in america. but not in the middle east, it doesnt matter how free we are, its the fact that there not, and they saw people in europe blspeaming there religion (spelling horrid, don't point it out) if it was jesus in the newspaper, I'm sure christians would have something to say about it. It wsa instigating a fight, but it is unecessary. To bad they got so offended, but at least you can understnad were there coming from.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 16th, 2006, 03:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koler
we allready know its our freedom in america. but not in the middle east, it doesnt matter how free we are, its the fact that there not, and they saw people in europe blspeaming there religion (spelling horrid, don't point it out) if it was jesus in the newspaper, I'm sure christians would have something to say about it. It wsa instigating a fight, but it is unecessary. To bad they got so offended, but at least you can understnad were there coming from.
no. italian newspapers are constantly taking the piss out of the different denominations of cristianity.

the newspapers in iran and other asian countries are taking the piss out of the holacaust, and you don't see jews running around burning embassies like muslims are.

"Behead those who insult islam". Making their religeon sound great arn't they?
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Old February 16th, 2006, 04:07 PM   #32
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yo dude, wtf, trippin out lol. Calm down sir I SAID CALM DOWN lol. *sigh* I think if you look back on my posts you will reolize I agree with you lol, and your yelling at me for.....what? lol, funny stuff man funny stuff.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 17th, 2006, 01:03 PM   #33
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Yes, when christians and jews see defaming cartoons and articals and movies they do have something to SAY about it. They talk about it. They argue it is not a realistic portrayel and represents hatred. But they don't call for banns. They do get upset if it turns out that it was government funded like the piss christ. No one should have to pay the people that defame them, and governemtn funding is exactly that. But they don't ask for stuff like the piss christ to be banned. Often it illustrates to everyone how devoid of thought or artistic merrit such people are, because they are obviously devoid of artistic merrit. Oooo, you put a crucifix in a jar of urine, ooo your sooo clever. Their VIOLENT reaction shows that they can't defend themselves with words. And actually they can't, so they have to resort to violence. Their position is untennable. They have made their religeon into a man with a cartoon bomb turban. I think they should all be confronted with the mockery they have made of their own once great faith. Their VIOLENT response just shows how true the sentiment was. They did this to their Prophit, all the Danes did was point it out to them in an easy to understand format, and they couldn't handle the truth.
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Old February 19th, 2006, 03:57 PM   #34
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People need to use freedom of speech responsibly.
And doing this to the prophet it is understandable why there upset. (But not in the way where they burn down building and start to glorify terrorism).
Mohammed to them is like there family, like what Jesus is to Christians.
It's just stirring up hatred, when people print stuff like this.
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Old February 20th, 2006, 01:22 AM   #35
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NOTE:

in response to the dan's publishing of the cartoons, muslims burned an american flag and set a KFC on fire.........WTF, wrong country silly arab's *shakes finger* silly silly arabs


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 20th, 2006, 11:58 PM   #36
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NO! Darn it. Woh many times do I have to write it. You DON'T have to use freedom of speech responsibly. represion THIS (rude gesture) you miscapitolized loon, I will not stay quiet while some one tells me my FREEDOM has to be used responsibly, since you seem to think you get to define responsible. Well, you don't get to. That is why it is a FREEDOM. FREE, without restrictions, exceptions, provisos, subclauses, or responsibility. The only limit on such things are when I would do actual bodily harm to another. That's the crowded theater example. But a free press can only harm some one if I throw them into the actual machine.

Thats why a religeon calling for human sacrafice can be kept from performing the human sacrafice. But they are free to believe they ought to. In the US such a religeous group would even be free to petition the government to allow them to have their sacrafices, and publish books about how great everything would be if only they were permited to make their blood sacrafices. Its free of domination, freedom, FREEDOM!

What the HELL is wrong with you people? This is what makes western civilization western civilization. It's what makes us BETTER then them. Yes, BETTER! We're better then those ignorant savages. Instead of saying the danes ought not have done what they done, you should support them demanding payment for the damage to their embasies. If any one had been killed it would have been an act of WAR against the Danes. We need to be more responsible? US? We're in the right. They have WRONGED us, not the other way around. This is like some sort of Orwellian Nightmare. We are Bet-ter! We don't need to appologize for excersizing our beloved freedom.

Man straps a bomb to his chest and you give him a great big hug so you can blow up together. What is this country comming too?
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 03:26 AM   #37
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Personally I dn't agree we are better. Not 50 years ago we were all exactly the same, I mean, women were repressed, religion was paramount etc.

And repression can take many forms, I heard a lot of people complain about women having to cover with scarfs, but that happened in my country (Spain) not 40 years ago.

If it somehow changed, I think, it was a question of material wealth. When you have it, when you are going to have something to eat for sure then you can spend time refining society.

Now, the point with the cartoon, I think, is not that Mohammad was depicted, I doubt it is the first time.

I tend to think that they are pretty angry at the direct association between Islam and bombs.

My guess is that it started as a protest by the general Islam and then it was profited by all those extremists to make some noise.

But... media do never show the opinion of moderate and progressive imams, do they? It is just like demonstration, which will not even get on TV unless there was a bunch of Black Block b******* throwing Molotov cocktails.

Take a peek at Le Monde Diplomatique (English edition) just this month, because of this, they give the floor to some imams that keep saying things most of us would agree with.

I really feel misinformed with the media you know.
Remember the troubles in Paris suburbs? I live in Paris. The media did not tell half of the truth, and invented the other half... result, what did the media say? outright lies.

Oh, and about the bomb in his chest thingy: Men get on a plane, bomb you, and you salute them because they liberated you? From what? From the shackles of flesh?

Evidently no one here wants nothing but those guys arrested and jailed, but I think we have a hefty part of responsability. For one, in provoking them. Try to find mainstream opinions. They are not the ones that media inform yu about, and they say the same things you say.

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Old February 22nd, 2006, 03:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbeardthepirate
NO! Darn it. Woh many times do I have to write it. You DON'T have to use freedom of speech responsibly. represion THIS (rude gesture) you miscapitolized loon, I will not stay quiet while some one tells me my FREEDOM has to be used responsibly, since you seem to think you get to define responsible. Well, you don't get to. That is why it is a FREEDOM. FREE, without restrictions, exceptions, provisos, subclauses, or responsibility. The only limit on such things are when I would do actual bodily harm to another. That's the crowded theater example. But a free press can only harm some one if I throw them into the actual machine.

Thats why a religeon calling for human sacrafice can be kept from performing the human sacrafice. But they are free to believe they ought to. In the US such a religeous group would even be free to petition the government to allow them to have their sacrafices, and publish books about how great everything would be if only they were permited to make their blood sacrafices. Its free of domination, freedom, FREEDOM!

What the HELL is wrong with you people? This is what makes western civilization western civilization. It's what makes us BETTER then them. Yes, BETTER! We're better then those ignorant savages. Instead of saying the danes ought not have done what they done, you should support them demanding payment for the damage to their embasies. If any one had been killed it would have been an act of WAR against the Danes. We need to be more responsible? US? We're in the right. They have WRONGED us, not the other way around. This is like some sort of Orwellian Nightmare. We are Bet-ter! We don't need to appologize for excersizing our beloved freedom.

Man straps a bomb to his chest and you give him a great big hug so you can blow up together. What is this country comming too?
you ignorant fool, when will you get it that though you have your fancy freedoms in america, your freedom of speech and press doesnt mean shit in a dictated country run by religion. who gives a flyin fuck if america has freedom, good lord, this argument is not about america, it has nothing to do with america, its between the dans, a free country and the middle east, a religious dictatorship all around. for the love of god, stop preaching american and western philosophy, when america is not part of the debate.


""The New Law of Righteousness," that there "shall be no buying or selling, no fairs nor markets, but the whole earth shall be a common treasury for every man," and "there shall be none Lord over others, but every one shall be a Lord of himself.""
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Old February 24th, 2006, 02:08 AM   #39
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Yes it is about the United States. Students at the University of Illinios were suspended for reprinting the cartoons as part of a news story in a newspapaer that is distributed on campus but is other wise independant from the University. No comercial papers will reprint them as part of a news story, and clearly they are news. Our press is being intimidated by rioting folks in another country and that's just plain wrong.

The Danes may be more progressive then we are over here, but I include them in Western Civilization, or maybe I should say I include us in their civilization.

And we were better then the arab countries 500 years ago, not just 50 years ago. Western civilization has always treated women better the the middle eastern oriental cultures, because we practice monogomy. Monogomistic relationships have always increased the important of the mother and women in general. Among common folks the relationship was always a partnership. This is the part of civilization invented by the greeks and has always set us apart.

What angers me, and yes I am rendered nearly blind with rage, when some one implies that telling the truth is a bad thing, and expressing your openion just because it might hurt some one's feelings from some other culture. Now I generally choose not to insult people because I understand the dynamics of interpersonal relationships and would rather make a friend then an enemy. BUT any one who wants to limit such a fundemental freedom is my enemy. And I put Kofi Annon in that catagory along with Google and UNESCO. But being a civilized type, I intend to use words to express my disgust, rather then blowing things up like that moron Timothy McVeigh.
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Old February 25th, 2006, 09:36 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbeardthepirate
NO! Darn it. Woh many times do I have to write it. You DON'T have to use freedom of speech responsibly. represion THIS (rude gesture) you miscapitolized loon, I will not stay quiet while some one tells me my FREEDOM has to be used responsibly, since you seem to think you get to define responsible. Well, you don't get to. That is why it is a FREEDOM. FREE, without restrictions, exceptions, provisos, subclauses, or responsibility. The only limit on such things are when I would do actual bodily harm to another. That's the crowded theater example. But a free press can only harm some one if I throw them into the actual machine.

Thats why a religeon calling for human sacrafice can be kept from performing the human sacrafice. But they are free to believe they ought to. In the US such a religeous group would even be free to petition the government to allow them to have their sacrafices, and publish books about how great everything would be if only they were permited to make their blood sacrafices. Its free of domination, freedom, FREEDOM!

What the HELL is wrong with you people? This is what makes western civilization western civilization. It's what makes us BETTER then them. Yes, BETTER! We're better then those ignorant savages. Instead of saying the danes ought not have done what they done, you should support them demanding payment for the damage to their embasies. If any one had been killed it would have been an act of WAR against the Danes. We need to be more responsible? US? We're in the right. They have WRONGED us, not the other way around. This is like some sort of Orwellian Nightmare. We are Bet-ter! We don't need to appologize for excersizing our beloved freedom.
Man straps a bomb to his chest and you give him a great big hug so you can blow up together. What is this country comming too?
lol
Ok I back my opinion with a little (true) story Ok
A week ago a stupid man denied the Holocaust ever happened in Austria and was sentenced to jail. That's not freedom of speech, he was sent to jail for something he said (around 20 years ago).
So we do need to use freedom of speech in a way to not insult anyone.
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