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Old April 16th, 2018, 06:11 AM   #1
Music Lover
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Default Discussion on rights

What are rights? Where do they come from? How do we know?

I'd like to hear peoples' views on this.

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Old April 16th, 2018, 11:29 AM   #2
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

I guess rights are commonly agreed freedoms and constants in the way that citizens of a nation or group are to be treated regardless of the context and conditions surrounding the case. An example is all the human rights provided by the Geneva Convention, such as the right to life, the right to freedom of religion etc. This gets a little murky when certain 'freedoms' can also justifiably be taken away such as the right to freedom of speech, which I think we can all agree can be taken away from people who are convicted of preaching terrorism and war etc. In terms of where they come from, most f not all 'rights' are man-made concepts that are commonly agreed upon. Religious people may add that God or multiple gods have granted them to us whilst others may believe they are man-made concepts purely.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 02:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

They are two kinds of rights, the ones @ShineintheDark mention, those are right that are essential to every working democracy like free speech (with some limitation), equal opportunity, believe any bullshit you want etc. and rights to have access to basic needs that are necessary for any human being to survive, food, clean water, clean air, a place to live, health care ect.

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Old April 16th, 2018, 05:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

Rights are essentially freedoms, and as the US Constitution says they are given unto all men and women by God, and that the government's role is to simply not to hinder an individual's practice of their rights. Rights are not handouts or entitlements.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 05:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

I don't believe You have a right to receive food, water or housing .
But you have the RIGHT to work for food water and housing like other people do unless your under 18 and are a ward of the state.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 07:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by CoryW View Post
I don't believe You have a right to receive food, water or housing .
But you have the RIGHT to work for food water and housing like other people do unless your under 18 and are a ward of the state.
Why wouldn't it be a right to have what you need to survive?

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Old April 16th, 2018, 07:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Why wouldn't it be a right to have what you need to survive?
because we live in a chaotic universe and the world is not fair.

if you want something get it your self.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 07:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by swedeam View Post
because we live in a chaotic universe and the world is not fair.

if you want something get it your self.
That's not a reason that's an excuse

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Old April 16th, 2018, 07:21 PM   #9
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That's not a reason that's an excuse
so you say.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 07:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

Rights are made and defined by humans. That's it!

Details of different types of rights are historically conditioned by the social and political evolution of different peoples, and are, more or less, likely to be in flux.





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Old April 16th, 2018, 09:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Why wouldn't it be a right to have what you need to survive?
Because that causes lazy ass people that don't have anything better to do than protest and bitch at everything instead of getting a job and supporting your self.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 09:10 PM   #12
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Because that causes lazy ass people that don't have anything better to do than protest and bitch at everything instead of getting a job and supporting your self.
Thats just not true

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Old April 16th, 2018, 11:16 PM   #13
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Because that causes lazy ass people that don't have anything better to do than protest and bitch at everything instead of getting a job and supporting your self.
I believe this to be wrong insofar as itís logical foundation to believe this makes some fallacious assumptions.

When observable reality can prove that work isnít always in proportion to a wage given because of an artificial society barrier on wage to effort of work variables, which mind you fluctuate according to the time period.

Few discuss the dynamic, they talk about the ideal as if itís rooted in concrete of right/wrong.

As we discuss this concept understand we are on the third level of the foundation of belief and argumentation already, we are entering a 4th level.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 11:30 PM   #14
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Because that causes lazy ass people that don't have anything better to do than protest and bitch at everything instead of getting a job and supporting your self.
Well, there are some cases where people simply don't have substantial support to make it out at times. Maybe they want to work, maybe they're fresh out of a job and don't have many options.

My parents lost have lost their jobs one or twice when we were kids and that made things complicated for us, especially when it came to basic necessities. In their positions, it's hard to find a job, and even harder to try and go back to schoall.

We lost the family car because we couldn't afford to keep it around. All those Hulu and Netflix subscriptions? Gone. The light bill sometimes? Nope. There were days where we couldn't keep it up.

We had to walk to the grocery store and back with bags in our hands. There was a time where I woke up early and walked 1/2 an hour to school, even in shitty weather. During the last week of every month, we had no food in our fridge. We don't ask for these things to happen, they just do.

Food stamps were really the only thing we had going for us at times.

I think there needs to be a better understanding as to why these people protest and 'bitch', maybe it's something that they hold dear. Maybe they're not trying to panic, because being broke isn't exactly what they ask for sometimes.
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Old April 17th, 2018, 12:25 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Alumni View Post
Well, there are some cases where people simply don't have substantial support to make it out at times. Maybe they want to work, maybe they're fresh out of a job and don't have many options

I think there needs to be a better understanding as to why these people protest and 'bitch', maybe it's something that they hold dear. Maybe they're not trying to panic, because being broke isn't exactly what they ask for sometimes.
There are plenty of cases where people enter poverty outside of their own choices, just like there are plenty of cases of people entering poverty because of bad choices and laziness. Regardless, that doesn't mean you are entitled for tax-payers to give you free things and make your life easier.

Personally, I do think most people who partake in those "gimme free stuff" protests, especially on a regular basis, are entitled and lazy people. People who actively strive to escape poverty are unlikely to think protesting is the best use of their time, and thus don't.
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Old April 17th, 2018, 04:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
There are plenty of cases where people enter poverty outside of their own choices, just like there are plenty of cases of people entering poverty because of bad choices and laziness. Regardless, that doesn't mean you are entitled for tax-payers to give you free things and make your life easier.

Personally, I do think most people who partake in those "gimme free stuff" protests, especially on a regular basis, are entitled and lazy people. People who actively strive to escape poverty are unlikely to think protesting is the best use of their time, and thus don't.
If the protests are for things of a luxurious nature, I agree with this.

But there are core things in which everyone should have access to public goods, vaccines are a good example because the whole benefits from a stronger herd immunity.

Also you have dynamics of how a town might start out peaceful, and decades later an airport is built nearby and noise pollution changes the property values of other peopleís property at no fault of their own, but due to encroaching freedoms of a 3rd party who is expressing the free speech right of owning and operating a business, you see where ideology breaks down when on paper ideals are all clean and neat and perfect.

When ideals are applied to reality it gets messy, and people usually donít amend their opinions they make excuses.

Protests arenít inherently bad, but it depends on what theyíre protesting about. What are their other options?
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Old April 17th, 2018, 08:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryW View Post
I don't believe You have a right to receive food, water or housing .
But you have the RIGHT to work for food water and housing like other people do unless your under 18 and are a ward of the state.
I think you're being a little simplistic here. No one has the RIGHT to a 5 course dinner with bottomless champagne, that's true. However, it is both inhumane and sick to deny a dying person basic bread and water so that they may live. No person, especially in advanced and wealthy societies such as our own, deserves to die because they cannot afford the basic things needed for survival.

Also, your statement implies that the two are mutually exclusive: that someone who cannot afford food and water must be a lazy bum leeching off the state. I can say as someone who comes from a country where nurses are forced to rely on food banks, where single mothers who work day and night to support their kids still rely on child benefit to see them through the month, where schools are increasingly being relied on to provide support to struggling families of children whose parents either cannot afford to feed and clothe them or simply do not have the time necessary to devote to their child. No one has a RIGHT to live like a king, but no one deserves to die for being poor.
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Old April 17th, 2018, 09:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

This got a lot more answers than I was expecting. Answering a few now and saving the rest for later

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
I guess rights are commonly agreed freedoms and constants in the way that citizens of a nation or group are to be treated regardless of the context and conditions surrounding the case.
So are you saying your right to your own life depends on if others around you commonly agrees to it?

If we base morality on our concept of rights, it should not rest on the whim of others. We need to find the root of where it all stems from.

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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
An example is all the human rights provided by the Geneva Convention, such as the right to life, the right to freedom of religion etc.
Do you think those rights are granted to citizens from respective governments or do they come from somewhere else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
This gets a little murky when certain 'freedoms' can also justifiably be taken away such as the right to freedom of speech, which I think we can all agree can be taken away from people who are convicted of preaching terrorism and war etc.
Yes, these are way further down the line. Right now, I suggest we stick to the basics

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
In terms of where they come from, most f not all 'rights' are man-made concepts that are commonly agreed upon.
If rights are man-made concepts, what should be the guiding principle in choosing what is good and what is not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
Religious people may add that God or multiple gods have granted them to us whilst others may believe they are man-made concepts purely.
Those are not the only two options. There is also a case to be made for objective rights purely from an atheistic perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
They are two kinds of rights, the ones @ShineintheDark mention, those are right that are essential to every working democracy like free speech (with some limitation), equal opportunity, believe any bullshit you want etc. and rights to have access to basic needs that are necessary for any human being to survive, food, clean water, clean air, a place to live, health care ect.
What is the difference between the two kinds of rights you mention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Rights are essentially freedoms, and as the US Constitution says they are given unto all men and women by God, and that the government's role is to simply not to hinder an individual's practice of their rights. Rights are not handouts or entitlements.
How did the people who wrote the constitution know what are rights? Can you explain their reasoning in your own words?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryW View Post
I don't believe You have a right to receive food, water or housing .
But you have the RIGHT to work for food water and housing like other people do unless your under 18 and are a ward of the state.
You have stated which are NOT rights. What rights do we have then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith48 View Post
Why wouldn't it be a right to have what you need to survive?
Do I have a right to the fruits of some other person's labour?

1 Corinthians 10:31 "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." - Francisco D'Anconia from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

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Last edited by Music Lover; April 17th, 2018 at 09:39 AM.
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Old April 17th, 2018, 11:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Discussion on rights

negative rights. which are more important.
-freedom of speech
-life
-private property
-freedom from violent crime
-habeas corpus
-fair trial regardles what you are accused of
-freedom of religion
-freedom of slavery
-right to protect your life and property by justifiable means what ever they happen to be. Like you should have right to use what ever necessary force to protect your life and others life as well but if someone steals your car that doesnt give you right to kill said person.
-right to breathe air
-acces to to water
- right to choose your profession or job or career. In case you qualify
-right to privacy
-right to have nationality


Just few that popped into my mind
and one extra which I love.... Right to roam
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Old April 17th, 2018, 01:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
What is the difference between the two kinds of rights you mention?
Ones are rights we all agreed are necessary to any free and fair democracy but are not essential to person survival, those are rights like free speech, equal opportunity, education.

The others are basic needs that every human being needs access to in order to survive, things like Food, clean water, health care every human no matter what have a right to receive and have access to those things at any time.

A simple question can help make the difference, if you don't get this will it cause you to die? If you don't eat you will die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Music Lover View Post
Do I have a right to the fruits of some other person's labour?
Not sure what you mean here, are you talking about stealing?

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