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Old November 7th, 2019, 03:43 PM   #1
Uniquemind
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Default LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

https://youtu.be/3UsZg9FphZw


Thoughts on this person’s YouTube video about the in-group disagreements and controversy as these sub-groups try to fight for civil rights and anti-bullying efforts?

Are people transitioning too young and is society assuming effeminate men or masculine women are in need of transition when they aren’t and causing a backlog in the medical system?

Respectful discussion only please and thank you.

Last edited by Uniquemind; November 7th, 2019 at 03:50 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2019, 05:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

"Are people transitioning too young and is society assuming effeminate men or masculine women are in need of transition when they aren’t and causing a backlog in the medical system?"

Yes and yes.

As a bisexual, I am a bit resentful of the way the trans community and trans activists have taken over the LGBT community. They have become the loudest voice and they seem to be pushing out the LGB. That's what I've noticed, personally, although my participation in the "community" is more limited than a lot of these people and I don't keep track of all the drama and in-fighting. I agree with virtually all the points made in the video. I think there is an effort on the behalf of trans activists to convince anyone who is not gender-conforming that they're gender dysphoric and in need of transitioning, which is not true. Effeminate men are still men--that doesn't mean they're trans. Keep in mind this conflation happens outside the LGBT community as well. I've seen clueless jokes on TV shows where gay men are shown as wanting to be women, as if the two are one and the same (in other words, not actually calling them trans as I'm not sure the writers of these jokes even know what that is, but the implication that effeminate men want to be women).

I find the idea that it's actually a form of homophobia to be fascinating: as if it is easier for people to accept that someone is trans than it is to accept that they are a feminine male attracted to other males. Someone who is feminine and attracted to males should be a woman--that makes a lot more sense and is easier to accept.

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Last edited by HeyCameron; November 7th, 2019 at 05:42 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2019, 07:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

I do think that it is a very contentious issue: when it comes to societal pressure over what constitutes gender dysphoria and trans identity, I really just leave that to the person. Like, someone can be a really feminine man/masculine woman and feel perfectly cisgendered whilst another person could mostly conform with gender stereotypes but still feel a disconnect between their physical sex and mental gender. Therefore, I believe it's much better for people to allow trans people to identify themselves and lead their own transitions rather than attempt to interject and 'help' someone along their path.

As for how old a child should be when they are diagnosed and transition, I have mixed thoughts. Some children can know from a very young age that they are trans and want to transition whilst other children either grow to still be perfectly cis and others never have any issues at all. That's why I honestly still believe the initial diagnosis is a murky area that is best left to medical and psychiatric professionals rather than us amateurs to determine. When it comes to medically transitioning though I see it as a major medical procedure that should really be left for people over the age of 16/18. Whilst going through puberty can be a traumatic experience for trans kids, I don;t personally believe that providing them with hormone-suppressing drugs is the best option as it can only lead to major complications by denying the body its natural development. Maybe the trauma of puberty just has to be a necessary evil? I don't know. That's just my opinion.
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Old November 7th, 2019, 11:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
I do think that it is a very contentious issue: when it comes to societal pressure over what constitutes gender dysphoria and trans identity, I really just leave that to the person. Like, someone can be a really feminine man/masculine woman and feel perfectly cisgendered whilst another person could mostly conform with gender stereotypes but still feel a disconnect between their physical sex and mental gender. Therefore, I believe it's much better for people to allow trans people to identify themselves and lead their own transitions rather than attempt to interject and 'help' someone along their path.

As for how old a child should be when they are diagnosed and transition, I have mixed thoughts. Some children can know from a very young age that they are trans and want to transition whilst other children either grow to still be perfectly cis and others never have any issues at all. That's why I honestly still believe the initial diagnosis is a murky area that is best left to medical and psychiatric professionals rather than us amateurs to determine. When it comes to medically transitioning though I see it as a major medical procedure that should really be left for people over the age of 16/18. Whilst going through puberty can be a traumatic experience for trans kids, I don;t personally believe that providing them with hormone-suppressing drugs is the best option as it can only lead to major complications by denying the body its natural development. Maybe the trauma of puberty just has to be a necessary evil? I don't know. That's just my opinion.

Your post mirrors my own thoughts on the issues.

But thatís why itís controversial, for as respected the medical community is, misdiagnoses happen.

And Iím learning now from both reading and watching YouTube news and personal testimonials, that sometimes Doctors just get things wrong and greenlight surgeries or any medical procedure incorrectly.

Transitioning is probably the most controversial sub-topic because it hits 3 areas of controversy:

1. The permanence of it

2. The cost of medical resources and time of professionals

3. The fact that peer pressure seems to be influencing the individuals to classify themselves as trans, before their own internal clocks or mind tells them yeah, somethings different about me.

ó-

The 4th issue is related to 3rd one in my view because itís like in an effort to be politically correct, some parents and friends are almost pushing people into ďcategories and boxesĒ versus allowing for a more normal development process to shape development of a person.


Transitioning isnít new either, and Iíve read or heard a few stories now of people who transitioned maybe in the 1980ís & 90ís who regret it retrospectively now. Like when individuals hit the age of ďdating, all the peer pressure of needing to be desirable on the dating stage of life, becomes relevant to defining their self-concept and worth. They either find their niche or they fall into depression and thatís a more complex look at whatís driving the dry suicide statistic.

We donít often talk about the whyís behind the statistics we read about.


Thanks for engaging in this very tough topic, I appreciate it.
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Old November 8th, 2019, 01:43 AM   #5
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
As for how old a child should be when they are diagnosed and transition, I have mixed thoughts. Some children can know from a very young age that they are trans and want to transition whilst other children either grow to still be perfectly cis and others never have any issues at all. That's why I honestly still believe the initial diagnosis is a murky area that is best left to medical and psychiatric professionals rather than us amateurs to determine. When it comes to medically transitioning though I see it as a major medical procedure that should really be left for people over the age of 16/18. Whilst going through puberty can be a traumatic experience for trans kids, I don;t personally believe that providing them with hormone-suppressing drugs is the best option as it can only lead to major complications by denying the body its natural development. Maybe the trauma of puberty just has to be a necessary evil? I don't know. That's just my opinion.
In a way, it's paradoxical. If someone wishes to transition, the transition is made easier if puberty is prevented, but going through puberty may be the only way a person can know for certain that they wish to transition.

In the video, she makes the point that a person's brain doesn't stop developing until they are 25. While that's a valid point, I think this could be used in a problematic argument against LGB people as well, that they're "too young to know" their sexuality and may only be going through a phase. In that sense I do think that a trans person can know they're trans from a young age (or at least show signs of it) in the same way that a pre-pubescent child can know they're not straight (the first signs of my attraction to boys started long before I started puberty). But there are no irreversible decisions being made when you're LGB. With deciding to transition, I do think the most pragmatic option is to wait until you an older teenager. Any younger and you risk doing irreversible damage to someone who may not be trans after all.

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Old November 8th, 2019, 03:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
I do think that it is a very contentious issue: when it comes to societal pressure over what constitutes gender dysphoria and trans identity, I really just leave that to the person. Like, someone can be a really feminine man/masculine woman and feel perfectly cisgendered whilst another person could mostly conform with gender stereotypes but still feel a disconnect between their physical sex and mental gender. Therefore, I believe it's much better for people to allow trans people to identify themselves and lead their own transitions rather than attempt to interject and 'help' someone along their path.

As for how old a child should be when they are diagnosed and transition, I have mixed thoughts. Some children can know from a very young age that they are trans and want to transition whilst other children either grow to still be perfectly cis and others never have any issues at all. That's why I honestly still believe the initial diagnosis is a murky area that is best left to medical and psychiatric professionals rather than us amateurs to determine. When it comes to medically transitioning though I see it as a major medical procedure that should really be left for people over the age of 16/18. Whilst going through puberty can be a traumatic experience for trans kids, I don;t personally believe that providing them with hormone-suppressing drugs is the best option as it can only lead to major complications by denying the body its natural development. Maybe the trauma of puberty just has to be a necessary evil? I don't know. That's just my opinion.
Going trough puberty is traumatic to all kids. And I would say maybe put age limit of major medical procedure bit higher lets say 21 or 25 cause that age is the age when puberty actually stops hormonally.
On one day Me and two of my friends who happen to be gay we talked about issues related to this. There seems to be great divide inside of gay community about masculinity vs femininity, Those lads are most overly masculine lads you can find. Die hard skinheads and tattoos and loud and.... you get picture and gay

Who is John Galt
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Old November 8th, 2019, 07:17 PM   #7
ShineintheDark
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

It would be great to have an actual trans insight on this, of course, since we as a bunch of cis people have a very limited experience of these matters ourselves and it's likely that people who actually have experiences to discuss and link to the discussion could elaborate more effectively.
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Old November 11th, 2019, 09:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
It would be great to have an actual trans insight on this, of course, since we as a bunch of cis people have a very limited experience of these matters ourselves and it's likely that people who actually have experiences to discuss and link to the discussion could elaborate more effectively.
I've been talking to my younger sis who is transgendered from boy>>>girl about her joining up on VT but mom says no she is too young to be on here.

What I can tell you from personal experience being a few years older than her and watching everything that has taken place along the way, is that in her case she always knew that she was supposed to be a girl. More recently, some advanced DNA testing proved that she is not clearly genetically a boy, but had been identified as a boy when she was born because of the appearance of the genital area.

In her case, we had always allowed her to be herself at home and after working with trained therapists the decision was made to allow her to present full time as a girl. There is no doubt this was the correct decision because she has done extremely well and the other kids at her school have been accepting of her change, many of them saying they always thought she should have been a girl.

What she would tell you is that the choice has to be made by the person, with involvement of parents, family, and therapists, but if someone is old enough to make a rational and informed decision to change, they should be allowed to. The other kids in my family all had to talk to her therapist about how we felt about her transitioning well before it became formal.

If someone has a specific question, I can ask her about whatever it is.
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Old November 14th, 2019, 01:55 AM   #9
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie2003 View Post
I've been talking to my younger sis who is transgendered from boy>>>girl about her joining up on VT but mom says no she is too young to be on here.

What I can tell you from personal experience being a few years older than her and watching everything that has taken place along the way, is that in her case she always knew that she was supposed to be a girl. More recently, some advanced DNA testing proved that she is not clearly genetically a boy, but had been identified as a boy when she was born because of the appearance of the genital area.

In her case, we had always allowed her to be herself at home and after working with trained therapists the decision was made to allow her to present full time as a girl. There is no doubt this was the correct decision because she has done extremely well and the other kids at her school have been accepting of her change, many of them saying they always thought she should have been a girl.

What she would tell you is that the choice has to be made by the person, with involvement of parents, family, and therapists, but if someone is old enough to make a rational and informed decision to change, they should be allowed to. The other kids in my family all had to talk to her therapist about how we felt about her transitioning well before it became formal.

If someone has a specific question, I can ask her about whatever it is.
I have a question but she wonít be able to answer until sheís older, when more peer pressure is put on dating and having physical intimacy experiences.

Is there a risk depression or unhappiness will set in again if she feels ďotherĒ in that context? As romantic rejection is a common experience the community faces as well as the fear of confessing to someone who might be secretly transphobic? Again donít ask her, but that is a question Iíve been pondering given other peopleís stories and experiences.



One question you can ask her is if she knew her need to transition from age 1-4?

Iíve always held the belief that some people are born knowing but some others arenít and theyíre more able to drift along the spectrum moreso than others.
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Old November 14th, 2019, 11:09 AM   #10
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

She told us many times that she always knew, from the time she could express those feelings, that she was supposed to be a girl and I can clearly remember when she was 3 or 4 asking if we could do something to make her a girl. She was aware that she needed to make a change and not be seen as a boy because she knew she wasn't really a boy and didn't want to be a boy. Once it was explained to her at 3 or 4 she was aware that it was possible to transition and desperately wanted that to happen, but she was 11 before that actually took place.

My parents went out of their way starting when she said she was really a girl to allow her to dress in girls clothes around the house, including dresses and anything else she wanted to wear. They even bought gender neutral clothes for her in the girls department that she could wear to school or church so she would know they were girls clothes but other people would not. The first day of kindergarten she was registered as a boy but was wearing girls jeans, shirt, underwear, socks and shoes. But they were very plain and not styles that anyone would have known were girls clothes. After she made the decision to present as a girl full time, she has worn girls clothes that are obviously girls clothes including dresses and skirts, and girls bathing suits in the summer at the community pool.

Karen is currently in middle school and has dated exactly one boy. He totally admires her and knew shortly after meeting her that she was transgendered. It doesn't bother him at all and in fact he's one of her strongest supporters and defenders. They are mildly physically interacting, basically they hold hands and kiss and make out, they dance together at the church teen group, but they choose not to go any further. She says that she will figure out her sexual orientation when she's older but definitely intends to date girls as well to help sort it all out.

What's totally in Karen's favor is that she's really pretty with long natural red hair and she looks and acts like a girl, if you didn't know she was TG you would never in the world guess that.

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Old November 15th, 2019, 06:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Well, when you have a group which has even the smallest of differences among them, there will be bickering. Look at early Liberia, it was made from freed African slaves but it evolved into conflict between Africans and African-Americans. Bickering like that is bound to happen.

Regarding people displaying stereotypical traits of the opposite sex, send them to a psychiatrist or something to determine if they are like that by nature or in need of transition.

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Old November 24th, 2019, 06:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: LGB or LGBT in-group disagreements even among medical community

Having watched the video and in particular having read Katie2003's comments about her own sister I think it would interesting to see some statistics. What is the distribution of people coming forward to say that they are trans against age. The point about age he is that it is the age of realisation, not the age of beginning treatment of fully transitioning. Also, how do the detransission rates relate to the original age of realisation?

I actually rather suspect that rather than finding that those who came forward when still young were too young to know their own minds that those who came forward when young were the genuine cases of gender dysphoria and those that only felt like they did not fit in after puberty and after sexual feeling had become more prominent were the ones more likely to be confusing sexual attraction for gender identity.

I think it is also important because we those who are pre-pubescent are refused treatment it limits the extent to which transition can be complete, or at least increases the complexity of that transition.

As for the roles of the two organisations mentioned I can quite see that trans gender people may feel that they have further to go in gaining mainstream acceptance and that Stonewall should devote more effort to them and yet at the same time I can see that many will think there is still much to do in the LGB area. It seems to me that the end game in any of these rights movements is not when you have rights enshrined in law and find acceptance among the educated but when it become "no big deal" among the general population.
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