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View Poll Results: What is your religion?
Agnosticism 142 13.61%
Atheism 312 29.91%
Buddhism 13 1.25%
Christianity (Please Specify) 415 39.79%
Hinduism 9 0.86%
Islam 33 3.16%
Judaism 17 1.63%
Wicca 17 1.63%
Other (Please Specify) 85 8.15%
Voters: 1043. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 10th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #3281
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post


[7]: It is. But it being illogical doesn't necessarily make it bad. I do lots of illogical things.


Illogical decision making and using illogical decision making to participate in the rules of pretty much anything is bad. For example we can all vote on certain matters, and if the majority uses illogical decision making to do so (relying on faith) this will effect the outcome in a most likely negative way, or atleast in an illogical outcome. Sounds weird but I hope you see what I mean.

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Old June 10th, 2014, 03:13 PM   #3282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Illogical decision making and using illogical decision making to participate in the rules of pretty much anything is bad. For example we can all vote on certain matters, and if the majority uses illogical decision making to do so (relying on faith) this will effect the outcome in a most likely negative way, or atleast in an illogical outcome. Sounds weird but I hope you see what I mean.
This is contradictory.

An example of how illogical reasoning can be good is when I vote to give away some of my hard-earned money to poor people (i.e., taxation and redistribution policies). There's no logical basis to give away my money to people I don't know and hold no connection with, but if we refer to my emotions then it makes perfect sense.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 10th, 2014, 03:15 PM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
This is contradictory.

An example of how illogical reasoning can be good is when I vote to give away some of my hard-earned money to poor people (i.e., taxation and redistribution policies). There's no logical basis to give away my money to people I don't know and hold no connection with, but if we refer to my emotions then it makes perfect sense.
No, that is actualy a logical decision based on information you know. You make a choice based on your own beleifs, not on the beleifs based on your faith.

Also, how were the two bolded texts contradicting each other? Or do you mean that simply saying so is contradictory? If so , see above.

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Old June 10th, 2014, 03:23 PM   #3284
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
[1]: I never said you were.

[2]: For what ends?

[3]: The main problem I have is that you a) Presume this is a meaningful criticism and b) Don't actually hold logically consistent views yourself.

[4]: Cool. Feel free to demonstrate how without pointing to fundamentalists.

[5]: Fantastic.

[6]: I'm aware of this.


[7]: It is. But it being illogical doesn't necessarily make it bad. I do lots of illogical things.

[8]: Feel free to expand here.


[9]: I'm doubtful that people would find an as successful anchor.

[10]: I don't actually see the problem in it.


I like getting drunk sometimes. I'm slowly killing myself but it's fun.

The world would be a very boring place if everyone acted rationally the entire time.
If you feel that the benefits of getting drunk outweigh the consequences, that's the logical thing to do. I think your views on logic are very misguided. You seem to think that in a world where everyone acted rationally all the time, there would be no fun and everyone would just work and study all the time. This isn't the case at all.

Now, lets look back at what I said. Somebody claimed that you shouldn't criticise the faith of others. I disagreed. I think faith is worthy of criticism because it is an irrational belief. Do you disagree that faith is an irrational belief?

~No really, I love capitalistic markets, I just think we should consider letting the workers seize the means of production.~
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Old June 10th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #3285
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
This is contradictory.

An example of how illogical reasoning can be good is when I vote to give away some of my hard-earned money to poor people (i.e., taxation and redistribution policies). There's no logical basis to give away my money to people I don't know and hold no connection with, but if we refer to my emotions then it makes perfect sense.
There's no logical reason for altruism? I disagree. There are plenty of logical reasons for altruism. I think your views on logic are very misguided. You seem to be confusing rationality with some selfish Ayn Rand style Objectivism. That's ridiculous.

Giving your money away to poor people is sometimes logical because it helps them get back on their feet and ultimately, reduces the amount of suffering in the world. Reducing the amount of suffering in the world is a logical thing to do because suffering is bad.

~No really, I love capitalistic markets, I just think we should consider letting the workers seize the means of production.~
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Old June 11th, 2014, 01:52 PM   #3286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
No, that is actualy a logical decision based on information you know.
It's not a logical decision. Handing over money to people I don't know (anonymously) goes against my self-interest: it hurts me to be altruistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
You make a choice based on your own beleifs, not on the beleifs based on your faith.
I believe that my exterminating all Irish people I will be doing the world a favour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese
Also, how were the two bolded texts contradicting each other?
You said that making illogical decision was bad but later changed it to making logical decisions was most likely resulting in something negative (i.e., bad). I see this as a contradiction.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
If you feel that the benefits of getting drunk outweigh the consequences, that's the logical thing to do.
I'd accept this if our opinions weren't influenced usually by our emotions. They are though. In my opinion the consequences of binge drinking are outweighed by the benefits. It's also might be my opinion (disclaimer: this time it's not) that the consequences of overdosing on cocaine are outweighed by the benefits. By your logic, which I don't consider logic, this is a perfectly logical formulation because I believe it's a perfectly logical formulation (see: circular reasoning).

Furthermore, logic is objective. In this case we might dispute the idea that the consequences of binge drinking are outweighed the benefits: now, if we were deducting this logically we could decide objectively which is better (to binge drink or not to binge drink) but because we're not deducting this logically and are rather going on our emotion-influenced opinions it is thus impossible to reach this objective logical conclusion. tl;dr (because that's explained awfully): If there's room for differing opinions surrounding a conclusion then it's by definition not the logical conclusion, because the logical conclusion would be objectively true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
I think your views on logic are very misguided.
Heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
Do you disagree that faith is an irrational belief?
No. But I'm not disputing this.

I'm disputing the idea that something being illogical is a meaningful criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
I think your views on logic are very misguided.
Hehx2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
You seem to be confusing rationality with some selfish Ayn Rand style Objectivism.
Ayn Rand was correct in stating that moving against your own self-interest is illogical.

She was just incorrect to believe that people were logical beings to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
Reducing the amount of suffering in the world is a logical thing to do because suffering is bad.
You believe that suffering is bad. Suffering in itself is not inherently bad. It's actually illogical to believe so.

Your argument falls flat on that idea: it seeks to prove an action logical by taking the assumption that the outcome of that same action is logical.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 11th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #3287
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
It's not a logical decision. Handing over money to people I don't know (anonymously) goes against my self-interest: it hurts me to be altruistic.
[1]



You said that making illogical decision was bad but later changed it to making logical decisions was most likely resulting in something negative (i.e., bad). I see this as a contradiction.
[2]

---
[1]: That doesn't make the decision illogical. Altruism can be based on logical decision making. Doing something in the interest of others can be because you want to secure a future for the people you care for, or many other logical reasons;
it wouldn't be illogical untill you did it just because you felt like doing something random or in the name of something which existence you have no certainty of.

[2]: I'm using an objective argument to support my opinion ( "bad" ), not contradicting myself. In this case "most likely negative results" (or whatever it was I said) was to support my view of it being "bad".

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Old June 11th, 2014, 02:58 PM   #3288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
That doesn't make the decision illogical.
If something is not done in your best interest then it is illogical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Altruism can be based on logical decision making.
Altruism (n): disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others or behaviour of an animal that benefits another at its own expense.

You literally cannot act both altruistically and in your own self-interest by definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Doing something in the interest of others can be because you want to secure a future for the people you care for, or many other logical reasons.
Acting altruistically for your own benefit (inc. emotional benefit - you want to see them close to you have a nice future) is not acting altruistically by definition of what acting altruistically is. Donating money to people you don't know or care for would be altruistic as you don't benefit from it. This is want voting for taxation and redistribution policies forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
In this case "most likely negative results" (or whatever it was I said) was to support my view of it being "bad".
It's contradictory because 'is' is definite whilst 'probably is' is not definite.

Semantics.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 11th, 2014, 03:13 PM   #3289
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Christian - Baptist
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Old June 11th, 2014, 03:31 PM   #3290
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
If something is not done in your best interest then it is illogical. [1]


Altruism (n): disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others or behaviour of an animal that benefits another at its own expense.

You literally cannot act both altruistically and in your own self-interest by definition. [2]


Acting altruistically for your own benefit (inc. emotional benefit - you want to see them close to you have a nice future) is not acting altruistically by definition of what acting altruistically is. Donating money to people you don't know or care for would be altruistic as you don't benefit from it. This is want voting for taxation and redistribution policies forces.


It's contradictory because 'is' is definite whilst 'probably is' is not definite. [3]

Semantics.
[1]: Could you please explain to me how this is appearently a fact and not a question of philosophy?

[2]: The moment you choose to do something logicaly, you are doing it in your own interest, because everything you do is eventualy for yourself. Just because it's not in your own interest doesn't mean it can't indirecty be to make yourself feel good; how many times haven't we all heard the frase "Helping others makes me happy"?

[3]: Me saying it's "bad" is my opinion. I can say it "is" bad, even though it would be better to use "I think it is". But I think it is bad, and my opinion is true to me. However on real life results I am not going to say it "is" bad, because bad is subjective; I can however say it will most likely end up with negative results, or something else less specific, etc.

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Old June 11th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #3291
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
It's not a logical decision. Handing over money to people I don't know (anonymously) goes against my self-interest: it hurts me to be altruistic.
Going against your self interest is logical if it helps others and reduces the total amount of suffering in the world. It doesn't matter if it's your suffering or not.


Quote:
I'd accept this if our opinions weren't influenced usually by our emotions. They are though. In my opinion the consequences of binge drinking are outweighed by the benefits. It's also might be my opinion (disclaimer: this time it's not) that the consequences of overdosing on cocaine are outweighed by the benefits. By your logic, which I don't consider logic, this is a perfectly logical formulation because I believe it's a perfectly logical formulation (see: circular reasoning).
Whether or not binge drinking occasionally is logical or not depends on how much you enjoy it. If occasionally binge drinking brings you great joy and positive emotions then I see no reason why it wouldn't be logical to occasionally binge drink because, depending on the person and the situation, the benefits(fun, socialization, etc) might outweigh the consequences.
Quote:
Furthermore, logic is objective. In this case we might dispute the idea that the consequences of binge drinking are outweighed the benefits: now, if we were deducting this logically we could decide objectively which is better (to binge drink or not to binge drink) but because we're not deducting this logically and are rather going on our emotion-influenced opinions it is thus impossible to reach this objective logical conclusion. tl;dr (because that's explained awfully): If there's room for differing opinions surrounding a conclusion then it's by definition not the logical conclusion, because the logical conclusion would be objectively true.
I agree that for every decision we must make, there is ultimately one choice that is the most logical, but due to emotion and human error that one logical decision is oftentimes impossible to reach or realize.


Quote:
No. But I'm not disputing this.

I'm disputing the idea that something being illogical is a meaningful criticism.
Something being illogical is a perfectly meaningful criticism. I try to make all of my decisions based off of logic and rationality, and when I don't and I let emotion or irrationallity get in the way I welcome criticism.


Quote:
Ayn Rand was correct in stating that moving against your own self-interest is illogical.
I disagree. Could you expand on why you think this is true?
Quote:
She was just incorrect to believe that people were logical beings to begin with.
If by "logical being" you mean someone who makes all of their decisions based on logic, then of course human beings aren't logical beings. But we can still use logic to a certain extant, and in my opinion we should always strive toward making our decisions as logical as possible.

Quote:
You believe that suffering is bad. Suffering in itself is not inherently bad. It's actually illogical to believe so.
Suffering isn't bas as a whole, because it helps us survive by telling us what's dangerous and what isn't. But the feeling of suffering, the sensation itself, is always bad. If a feeling is negative or bad it's a form of suffering. If a feeling is positive or joyful it isn't a form of sufferingl.[/QUOTE]

~No really, I love capitalistic markets, I just think we should consider letting the workers seize the means of production.~
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Old June 11th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #3292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Could you please explain to me how this is appearently a fact and not a question of philosophy?
Is their a rational justification for deliberately going out of ones way to harm oneself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
The moment you choose to do something logicaly, you are doing it in your own interest, because everything you do is eventualy for yourself.
Okay. I accept your argument that altruism can't exit.

Would you say the urge to 'feel good about oneself' is more based in emotion or logic? Why do you 'feel good about yourself'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Just because it's not in your own interest doesn't mean it can't indirecty be to make yourself feel good.
I'm getting confused here.

Are you now changing your mind and saying that people do things out of pure altruism and not out of their own self-interest? If so then we are back to people acting illogically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
But I think it is bad, and my opinion is true to me.
This implies that logic and what is logical is subjective.

By this logic, literally anything, from persecuting Irishmen to overdosing on cocaine, can be considered logical.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
Going against your self interest is logical if it helps others and reduces the total amount of suffering in the world. It doesn't matter if it's your suffering or not.
It's logical if it helps others when it reduces the amount of suffering in the world in your opinion.

There's nothing inherently good about helping people when it reduces the amount of suffering in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
Whether or not binge drinking occasionally is logical or not depends on how much you enjoy it.
Would you agree with the statement: "It is logical because I believe it is logical"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
I agree that for every decision we must make, there is ultimately one choice that is the most logical, but due to emotion and human error that one logical decision is oftentimes impossible to reach or realize.
I agree with this statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
Something being illogical is a perfectly meaningful criticism.
I'll get back to this when we're done with some of the other things I'm saying.

I still disagree however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
Could you expand on why you think this is true?
I can't see a rational justification as to why deliberately going against ones own self-interest can be rational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
But the feeling of suffering, the sensation itself, is always bad.
Suffering (n): the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.

I disagree with the idea that if someone enjoys pain or hardship or duress then it is not suffering: if someone takes gratification out of suffering that doesn't mean that they are suffering (by the objective meaning of the word) any less. Whether or not suffering is a good or bad thing depends on the individual and the opinion as held by the individual.

Further, sexual sadists enjoy inflicting suffering - and thus enjoy the idea of suffering - but they might not necessarily enjoy suffering themselves

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 12th, 2014, 12:29 AM   #3293
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
Is their a rational justification for deliberately going out of ones way to harm oneself? [1]


Okay. I accept your argument that altruism can't exit.

Would you say the urge to 'feel good about oneself' is more based in emotion or logic? Why do you 'feel good about yourself'? [2]


I'm getting confused here.

Are you now changing your mind and saying that people do things out of pure altruism and not out of their own self-interest? If so then we are back to people acting illogically. [3]


This implies that logic and what is logical is subjective.

By this logic, literally anything, from persecuting Irishmen to overdosing on cocaine, can be considered logical. [4]
[1]: Ofcourse there is, it just depends on your definition of rational. There can be any logical reasoning behind harming oneself for any reason.

[2]: To feel good about your self is emotional; however doing something in order to feel good about yourelf is a logical action.
We do it to support ourselves.

[3]: a: No I'm not. I'm saying when people seem to do purely altruistic things, they are always doing it to please themselves or a certain thought mentally. Philophicaly speaking true altriusm doesn't exist, if the act has to be selfless mentally too.
b: Altruism is not by definition illogical, I have yet to see you explain to me exactly how selflessnes directly means illogical, while everything can be part of a greater good.

[4]: No. I was saying doing illogical things was 'bad". I should have said 'I think it's bad" just to clarify that it's my opinion, but since 'bad" is a subjective word anyways I didn't feel it was nescecairy. I was stating my opinion and then giving a justification for it.

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Old June 12th, 2014, 05:53 AM   #3294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Ofcourse there is, it just depends on your definition of rational[1]. There can be any logical reasoning behind harming oneself for any reason[2].
[1]: Logical.

[2]: I can't think of any logical basis, i.e., a basis that doesn't appeal to emotion, to deliberately disadvantage oneself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
I'm saying when people seem to do purely altruistic things, they are always doing it to please themselves or a certain thought mentally.
I've had second thoughts about this.

I believe that individuals engage in altruistic behaviour mainly in the name of a 'greater good', etc. and not so much in the name of ego: whilst the need to feel good about oneself might exist, I feel that its subordinate to, and thus not as influential as, ones want to serve the 'greater good': since the latter illogical want factors in more than the former logical want, I feel that people are not acting as much (i.e., fully) in their own self-interest as you might be making out - and thus are acting illogically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Philophicaly speaking true altriusm doesn't exist, if the act has to be selfless mentally too.
I'd argue that pure altruism doesn't exist, but altruism itself can be a major factor in an individuals decision making process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Altruism is not by definition illogical, I have yet to see you explain to me exactly how selflessnes directly means illogical, while everything can be part of a greater good.
There's no such (objective) thing as the 'greater good' and thus acting in its name is illogical.

Again, I ask for a logical basis in which one would deliberately disadvantage oneself, gaining neither a return or a full-return on their actions. It seems to me that any such action would be necessarily influenced by emotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
I was stating my opinion and then giving a justification for it.
I was making the point that your opinion is irrelevent to whether something is logical or not.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Male
I agree that for every decision we must make, there is ultimately one choice that is the most logical, but due to emotion and human error that one logical decision is oftentimes impossible to reach or realize.
I rethought this and realised I don't agree with this.

It implies an objective, but unknown, 'good' and 'bad' exist. I disagree.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 12th, 2014, 08:09 AM   #3295
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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
[1]: Logical.

[2]: I can't think of any logical basis, i.e., a basis that doesn't appeal to emotion, to deliberately disadvantage oneself. [1]


I've had second thoughts about this.

I believe that individuals engage in altruistic behaviour mainly in the name of a 'greater good', etc. and not so much in the name of ego: whilst the need to feel good about oneself might exist, I feel that its subordinate to, and thus not as influential as, ones want to serve the 'greater good': since the latter illogical want factors in more than the former logical want, I feel that people are not acting as much (i.e., fully) in their own self-interest as you might be making out - and thus are acting illogically. [2]


I'd argue that pure altruism doesn't exist, but altruism itself can be a major factor in an individuals decision making process.


There's no such (objective) thing as the 'greater good' and thus acting in its name is illogical. [3]

Again, I ask for a logical basis in which one would deliberately disadvantage oneself, gaining neither a return or a full-return on their actions. It seems to me that any such action would be necessarily influenced by emotion. [4]


I was making the point that your opinion is irrelevent to whether something is logical or not.

---
[1]: There can be plenty. You can deliberatly disadvantage yourself because you know it will help others, or to achieve something else , etc.

[2]: Even if they aren't acting for themselves, that doesn't make it illogical. Evolutionairy speaking we could definetly have completely altruistic traits that disadvantage ourselves but help our species or children survive.

[3]: Sorry, I didn't mean "The greater good", I just meant a greater good, whichever that might be in the situation.

[4]: Does that make it illogical? I know emotional actions and arguments are not logical, but acting in a certain way to allow yourself to feel an emotion can be based on logical decision making.

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Old June 12th, 2014, 08:29 AM   #3296
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I am a born again Christian. I am a member of a Southern Baptist church. I agree with the basic beliefs of Baptists. However, I do not agree with the way I hear a lot of our preacher interpret those beliefs. My pastor is hung up on lust, thinks boys and girls should not be allowed to swim together, thinks playing cards of any kind is a sin, believes that drinking and smoking is a sin, etc. And he is so homophobic it is funny. I like going to church, do so every sunday and we sit together as a family. I really like that. I just ignore the rantings of a guy who is not living mentally in the 21st century.
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Old June 12th, 2014, 09:55 AM   #3297
Vlerchan
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
There can be plenty. You can deliberatly disadvantage yourself because you know it will help others, or to achieve something else , etc.
I'm not asking for just reasons (which it seems you have given me). I realise that there's reasons that individuals disadvantage themselves.

I'm asking for a logical basis, i.e., one that does not appeal to emotion, for altruism: there's no logical basis, i.e., a basis that does not preclude emotion, to 'help others' (feel free to offer one), and disadvantaging oneself to achieve something else sounds likes it an actions being commited in ones self-interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Evolutionairy speaking we could definetly have completely altruistic traits that disadvantage ourselves but help our species or children survive.
I don't study biology, and I don't pretend to know about evolution all to well, but isn't the base of it all to survive?: evolutionary speaking, I don't believe we'd develop pure altruistic traits, because disadvantaging oneself in favour of another would be counterproductive to our own survival.

I believe that if we develop altruistic traits, see: Homo Emiritus (I think?), then it will be because such traits aid in our own personal survival - and thus such traits won't actually be altruistic, as I defined it, at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Sorry, I didn't mean "The greater good", I just meant a greater good, whichever that might be in the situation.
It's illogical to define a greater good, because an objective 'good' or 'bad' doesn't exist.

In such a case, ones actions would only be logical as long as everyone presumed that the outcome was also logical - or in the name of 'the greater good'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
I know emotional actions and arguments are not logical, but acting in a certain way to allow yourself to feel an emotion can be based on logical decision making.
I'm presuming that altruism, the want to do self-defined good, plays a larger role than ego, the want to feel good, in ones decision-making process, because I've gathered that from personal experience. If it was a case of an action being commited entirely on the basis of ego, then I might be inclined to agree, but I don't believe this occurs all too often, if ever.

Since altruism, defined as: commiting a selfless action, an action not in ones self-interest or bringing one equal gain, is drawn from emotion, and thus illogical, I would label any action (or belief - left-liberalism, for example) influenced by altruism illogical.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 12th, 2014, 10:00 AM   #3298
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
I'm not asking for just reasons (which it seems you have given me). I realise that there's reasons that individuals disadvantage themselves.

I'm asking for a logical basis, i.e., one that does not appeal to emotion, for altruism: there's no logical basis, i.e., a basis that does not preclude emotion, to 'help others' (feel free to offer one), and disadvantaging oneself to achieve something else sounds likes it an actions being commited in ones self-interest. [1]


I don't study biology, and I don't pretend to know about evolution all to well, but isn't the base of it all to survive?: evolutionary speaking, I don't believe we'd develop pure altruistic traits, because disadvantaging oneself in favour of another would be counterproductive to our own survival.

I believe that if we develop altruistic traits, see: Homo Emiritus (I think?), then it will be because such traits aid in our own personal survival - and thus such traits won't actually be altruistic, as I defined it, at all


It's illogical to define a greater good, because an objective 'good' or 'bad' doesn't exist.

In such a case, ones actions would only be logical as long as everyone presumed that the outcome was also logical - or in the name of 'the greater good'


I'm presuming that altruism, the want to do self-defined good, plays a larger role than ego, the want to feel good, in ones decision-making process, because I've gathered that from personal experience. If it was a case of an action being commited entirely on the basis of ego, then I might be inclined to agree, but I don't believe this occurs all too often, if ever.

Since altruism, defined as: commiting a selfless action, an action not in ones self-interest or bringing one equal gain, is drawn from emotion, and thus illogical, I would label any action (or belief - left-liberalism, for example) influenced by altruism illogical.
Well we've gone really off track with this whole thing but I totaly see what you mean

I would like to mention there can definetly be evolution traits not soly based on one's own survival but on the survival of the bloodline or tribe or group or whatever it's called.
For example we could have, (Maybe we did, I haven't studied evolution enough to know, but I certainly will in the future), developed systems that don't nescecairly aide ourselves but can actualy kill us in certain situations, giving other superiours more survival guaranteeing the eventual survival of the species,
so in other words for a greater good, the greater good in this case being the survival of the species, which makes sense because after all our bodies are a collection of tiny organisms which can no longer live without each other.

shout at the world because the world doesn't love you

lower yourself because you know that you have to.
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Old June 12th, 2014, 12:32 PM   #3299
Vlerchan
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Default Re: Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
Well we've gone really off track with this whole thing but I totaly see what you mean.
Ah. Cool. c:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesee
I would like to mention there can definetly be evolution traits not soly based on one's own survival but on the survival of the bloodline or tribe or group or whatever it's called.
Interesting. I'll look into it.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old June 12th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #3300
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Default Re: Religion

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Originally Posted by Vlerchan View Post
[1]: Logical.

[2]: I can't think of any logical basis, i.e., a basis that doesn't appeal to emotion, to deliberately disadvantage oneself.

There's no such (objective) thing as the 'greater good' and thus acting in its name is illogical.

Again, I ask for a logical basis in which one would deliberately disadvantage oneself, gaining neither a return or a full-return on their actions. It seems to me that any such action would be necessarily influenced by emotion.
I just have to address this. Lets say you have X amount of money, and you want to spend it on a gaming console that, if bought, would provide you with many hours of joy and fun. But you instead decide to donate it to help feed starving children or something. When those children receive that food, they're likely to experience a plethora of positive emotions and have many of their negative emotions(hunger, in this case) cured. And I think you would agree that the amount of suffering that is alleviated when the children receive the food is greater than the amount alleviated when you buy a gaming console. It stands to reason then that giving away your money was a logical decision because it decreased the total amount of suffering in the world more than if you had kept it. Who's suffering it is that's decreased is irrelevant.

~No really, I love capitalistic markets, I just think we should consider letting the workers seize the means of production.~
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