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View Poll Results: What is your religion?
Agnosticism 142 13.61%
Atheism 312 29.91%
Buddhism 13 1.25%
Christianity (Please Specify) 415 39.79%
Hinduism 9 0.86%
Islam 33 3.16%
Judaism 17 1.63%
Wicca 17 1.63%
Other (Please Specify) 85 8.15%
Voters: 1043. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 9th, 2014, 12:36 PM   #3221
Vlerchan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogoshtalmour View Post
snip.
You're touching on a major problem I have with many religions and what they cause - this being the most neutral term I could think of -their adherents to do: defer their morality to character X or book Y or Deity Z; adopt unthinkingly, unquestionably the views of some apparently 'benevolent' authority - generally an alien one; one supposedly incomprehensible to its subjects (and thus impossible to question); above them. You seem the perfect example of this thinking: you didn't answer my question, didn't tell me what you think about both genocide and infanticide, but rather told me that it was God's will.

Quote:
Those that go against God are evil by definition.
Being labelled 'evil' for moving against infanticide (and genocide) is certainly a new one, anyway.

Quote:
I seem to recall the Amalekites (along with many other people groups back then) committed child sacrifice.
The Amalekites - as far as I'm aware - were entirely fictional and I've encountered not a single reference towards them outside of the bible; within the bible I've also encountered no reference of them committing child sacrifice - God orders David - or Saul; maybe both. I forget - to murder them all because they once attacked the Jewish people; God wanted revenge, simply. (On a side note: I distinctly remember God commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (?) in Genesis; it'd be rather hypocritical to murder an entire nation of people for such a 'crime' then in that case, wouldn't it?)

Though it's interesting that you would try to defend infanticide (not to mention genocide) with allegations of infanticide against the defenders; that actually only makes it worse. It's nonsensical, frankly; why murder the children of the child-murderers; what does that actually achieve?

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(AND MAKE NO MISTAKE IT IS A CHOICE)
There's millions upon millions of people who will never come into contact with the ideas of Christianity - nomadic, isolationist tribal groups, for example. They've no choice.

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Did you know the philosophies of Karl Marx and Nietzche influenced Russia and Germany a lot in the early 1900's and are indirectly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. They held atheistic philosophies by the way. Certainly Stalin was an atheist.
The teachings of the bible - and other theistic texts - have influenced hundreds of states throughout history - and by your reasoning then: billions of deaths.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old January 10th, 2014, 02:22 AM   #3222
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Atheism+Agnosticism=40% very impressive. I'm not but I respect them.
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Old January 11th, 2014, 04:53 PM   #3223
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Originally Posted by rogoshtalmour View Post
You have to understand God desires that NONE should perish however he allows you to make a choice you can choose to obey him and spend an eternity in heaven with him or you can choose (AND MAKE NO MISTAKE IT IS A CHOICE) to spend eternity apart from him ie Hell. There are two kinds of people in this world those who say to God "thy will be done" and those to whom God says "thy will be done."

Now to your question. Did you know every major world religion has a story of a great flood? In fact most cultures have one as well. This suggests a common history for all mankind. Christianity is by far the most documented religion in history. We have more evidence for the life and actions of Jesus Christ than we do for Socrates. In fact there are still theories that Socrates never lived that He was just a made up teacher created by Plato for Plato to demonstrate his own ideas. The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years on across 3 different continents by over 40 different authors all from different walks of life including a doctor, cupbearer, fisherman, prime minister, military general, etc. and each of them told the same story overall. They spoke of a personal relationship with the living God. The Bible as a whole is really just a single story namely God's plan of salvation for all mankind. Jesus Christ is that salvation, He is the fulfillment of the Scriptures. Now it's been said Jesus has to be 1 of 3 things. He was either a liar, a lunatic, or He was who He said He was. C.S. Lewis wrote about that you should check out his writings. Also Josh McDowell writes about it in his book More than A Carpenter. He also has a book called Answers to Tough questions and the The New evidence that demands a verdict. That last one is really great it presents a lot of historical evidence for the Bible and Jesus. Josh McDowell started off as an atheist and was challenged by some of his friends at college to search for the truth. He started his journey trying to find a way to disprove the Bible, Christ, and God. He ended up becoming a Christian instead. He is not the only one with a story like that either. If you really studied up on this you would see so many people the world over have had their lives changed and changed for the better because of Jesus. Not just because of Christians helping them either with clothes and food and such although that is a great thing too. That is another reason I choose Christianity over the other religions. No other religion out there has done more to aid humanity in general than Christianity. I know what you're thinking didn't Christianity also cause a lot of wars. Dr. Walter Martin another Christian apologist asked a history professor once to research how many people died in all the religious wars throughout history. I think they only went back to Jesus's time but still it was counting the crusades and all. They came up with a number of about 3 million. Did you know the philosophies of Karl Marx and Nietzsche influenced Russia and Germany a lot in the early 1900's and are indirectly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. They held atheistic philosophies by the way. Certainly Stalin was an atheist. Another reason I am a Christian instead of say a Muslim is well no other religion actually offers hope in this dark world. Even Islam the only sure way to get to heaven is by killing others. You can do everything else right in accordance with the Koran but Allah may just turn you away on a whim and say no you may not enter heaven. The only way to get to heaven is to kill others in the name of Allah which is why so many terrorists have been muslim. They are trying to earn their way into heaven. Christianity on the other hand specifically says you can not earn your way to heaven. You can not get to heaven with works. Instead you must accept the gift of Christs sacrifice and have faith in Him. Now in doing so you will also end up doing good works by default but those good works are not what get you into heaven. Ya know in the beginning God created the Garden and us and gave us choice and He knew before He even created us that we would at some point make the wrong choice and sin would enter the world. If not Adam and Eve then someone down the line would have done it. So even before He made us He also designed a plan of salvation for us. He knew we would mess up and He would have to save us. It is up to us to accept that free gift though.
There is a lot more I could say on this an other subjects but it would be a lot to read. Instead try checking out the authors i mentioned. Also R.C. Sproul and Walter martin have podcasts. Walter martin is deceased but you can still find the podcasts. Those two have taught me a lot. The information is out there sometimes you just need a little help finding it. The Bible also says "seek and you will find." Sometimes all it takes is a person to open their heart and honestly seek God and He will answer. Keep in mind He answers in his own timing not ours.
I love all of the information you provided and your arguments are very valid. Although, there is one thing I would like to get out of the way--Karl Marx, Nietzsche, and Stalin (although it is debatable as to whether Stalin was an atheist) did not commit those crimes because they were atheists. There are many atheists (including myself) who are shocked and against the horrible things they have done, as many christians feel about the crusades. However, the crusades are a result of religious belief. The things that Stalin, Marx, and Nietzsche did were not because they were atheists, but simply because they were bad people. Being in an atheist alone doesn't put that kind of hatred in your heart. I appreciate much of what you have said, and I will gladly check out the information you said would be helpful.
I was wondering about a certain of your beliefs personally (because christians all over the world differ in this). Do you believe that the amount of good in a person is based upon their amount of faith? Let's say you have an atheist who is a very good person and who loves to help people out just because it is the right thing to do, and he wants to do good in the world. Would he go to hell because he didn't believe in god? And what about people who were born before christianity and believed in Zeus? Will they go to hell because they never had the chance to believe in the Christian god? And what about the people in provincial villages where they never have a chance to see the outside world? They are many places in Africa where the people have never been outside of their villages, and have never even seen a Bible or know anything about it. What will happen to them?
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Old January 13th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #3224
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I like your point; it shows me that you are intelligent, but I want to be clear with you that I am not asking for autonomous free will. Yes, it is true that I think burning your children for eternity is a bit harsh for doing one bad deed in life. All I'm saying is that the punishment is unjust, not that there shouldn't be a punishment. For example, when your child makes a mess of the house, you send them to a time out until dinner time. This gives them time to think about what they've done and come to the conclusion that they were wrong, and so they can learn from it and do better later on in life. But in hell, you can never escape, no matter how much you are sorry for what you did. There is no redemption. In god's eyes, there is only good and evil. I see much more to the human species. I don't think that everything is so black and white, but that there are shades of gray. And just because you've done a bad thing, does that necessarily make you a bad person? All I'm saying is that it seems unfair for god to punish his own children and cause them agony for an eternity. Think about that for a second. An eternity. A whole day, burning in agonizing pain would be horrible. A year, inhuman. a thousand, unbelievable. How about a million? and a billion? a trillion? a hundred trillion? ten hundred trillion? Not even. None of these lengths of time come close. Can you imagine? Being tortured non stop for an eternity? Does that sound like an all loving, forgiving god to you?
Listen, I very much enjoy debating with you. I would like to continue, because you seem very knowledgeable on the subject, and I am looking to understand. I always try to keep an open mind. I was wondering if you could answer this question for me: Why christianity? Why do you choose to be a christian? I am assuming that you think all other religions are false, yes? So why do you think christianity is the true religion? What makes christianity more valid than all the other thousands of religions that have existed during the course of history?
Hmm... where to start.
God doesn't send you to Hell for one little bad thing you do. He forgives. He is like a loving parent. If you ask for forgivness, you will receive it. But continually murdering or stealing and not asking for forgivness? That will land you in Hell. God loves us and provides all for us. But when you sin, he reaches out to you to repent. If you ignore his call, you will land in Hell. Ever heard "Repent, and thou shalt be saved"? He does forgive. He doesn't just say "Oh, you sinned? To Hell you go." Hell is reserved for the purest of evils. He tries to help you as much as he can, as much as he can. And I will finish by answering the last few questions you asked. I was brought up christian, I didnt choose it. I do not believe all other religions are false. I believe all other religions are capturing their own aspect of God. If the religion has more than one God, then they are showing every side of God. I respect all other religions. And I even enjoy learning about them.
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Old January 13th, 2014, 06:42 PM   #3225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King_of_Hearts View Post
Hmm... where to start.
God doesn't send you to Hell for one little bad thing you do. He forgives. He is like a loving parent. If you ask for forgivness, you will receive it. But continually murdering or stealing and not asking for forgivness? That will land you in Hell. God loves us and provides all for us. But when you sin, he reaches out to you to repent. If you ignore his call, you will land in Hell. Ever heard "Repent, and thou shalt be saved"? He does forgive. He doesn't just say "Oh, you sinned? To Hell you go." Hell is reserved for the purest of evils. He tries to help you as much as he can, as much as he can. And I will finish by answering the last few questions you asked. I was brought up christian, I didnt choose it. I do not believe all other religions are false. I believe all other religions are capturing their own aspect of God. If the religion has more than one God, then they are showing every side of God. I respect all other religions. And I even enjoy learning about them.
I like your version of god Different people see him differently, but your version of him seems to be loving, and I like that. There are many people who say they believe in a loving god, then preach hatefully in god's word. I personally don't think that you can know for sure who you are dealing with and what he is like until you are sitting there with him and you hear his words straight from his lips. Otherwise, things get twisted easily. The Bible is like a game of telephone. Even if there is a god, I believe that the Bible would be an unreliable source, seeing as it came from oral tradition, passed down for centuries before it was written down. This causes changes in the stories, and by the time people got around to writing it, the story was probably completely different from what it was originally. I still think that following the Bible can be a very noble thing, if you use it right. I think the Bible has many beautiful, inspirational quotes. Still, you must use it wisely and not take it literally because there are many horrible things in there as well that are at best morally problematic, and at worst, morally obscene.
I also appreciate your pluralist viewpoint (all paths lead to the same mountain kinda thing). Most christians I've met have not been so open-minded as to think that all other religions are true in their own way as well. Every religious person I've talked to in person believes that their religion is the only true one, and that all other people who don't believe the same thing will go to hell (except they said it in a nicer way of course). I know that there are christians who have that pluralist viewpoint like yourself, I've just never met one in person. I wish there were more pluralists like you in the world! It would make life and everyone's individual spiritual journeys much easier
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Old January 24th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #3226
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I'm Maronite Catholic
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:30 PM   #3227
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Catholic
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:49 PM   #3228
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I'm an atheist!

Los Angeles Kings Fan Los Angeles Dodgers Fan
Proud Liberal Democrat Pro-Choice
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Old February 6th, 2014, 08:48 PM   #3229
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Pastafarianism aka kingdom of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

M/16/Pan
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Old February 7th, 2014, 01:18 AM   #3230
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I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the Christian God because it's based completely off the bible, which has ran into so many contradictions based on the things we've discovered through science.


So keep it cool,
my baby
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Old February 8th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #3231
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I am a staunch (did I use that word correctly) Catholic, but I do believe in evolution.

"Bring me your children, they'll burn
Never look back, never turn.
Cry me a river, you'll learn
Voodoo!
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Old February 8th, 2014, 04:17 PM   #3232
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I am a staunch (did I use that word correctly) Catholic, but I do believe in evolution.
Are you against abortion in all cases excluding (maybe) their existing an identifiable and grave threat against the mothers life?

Do you oppose LGBT rights - specifically their right to marry?

Do you oppose the use of contraception?

Do you oppose extra-martial sex - sex outside marraige?

Do you oppose divorce?

Do you support defined gender roles?[1]

If you responded affirmatively to five or six of the above propositions then it's probably correct to label yourself a Staunch or Conservative Catholic. If you responded affirmatively to two to four of the above propositions then it'd probably be more correct to label yourself a Moderate Catholic. If you responded affirmatively to less than two (zero or one) of the propositions then it's probably correct to label yourself a Liberal Catholic. This is all politically-speaking mind you, though I'd expect it to transfer over.

[1]: The retention of Patriarchy is still a big part of Catholicism right?

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"

Last edited by Vlerchan; February 8th, 2014 at 04:21 PM.
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Old February 8th, 2014, 04:30 PM   #3233
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Are you against abortion in all cases excluding (maybe) their existing an identifiable and grave threat against the mothers life?

Do you oppose LGBT rights - specifically their right to marry?

Do you oppose the use of contraception?

Do you oppose extra-martial sex - sex outside marraige?

Do you oppose divorce?

Do you support defined gender roles?[1]

If you responded affirmatively to five or six of the above propositions then it's probably correct to label yourself a Staunch or Conservative Catholic. If you responded affirmatively to two to four of the above propositions then it'd probably be more correct to label yourself a Moderate Catholic. If you responded affirmatively to less than two (zero or one) of the propositions then it's probably correct to label yourself a Liberal Catholic. This is all politically-speaking mind you, though I'd expect it to transfer over.

[1]: The retention of Patriarchy is still a big part of Catholicism right?
Hmmm, according to you I am a moderate Catholic. Ah, well, let's not have a fight over this.

"Bring me your children, they'll burn
Never look back, never turn.
Cry me a river, you'll learn
Voodoo!
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Old February 8th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #3234
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Hmmm, according to you I am a moderate Catholic. Ah, well, let's not have a fight over this.
I wrote that 'survey' up in under a minute. I wouldn't take it to heart. If you want to declare as a staunch Catholic then by all means go ahead - don't let that deter you.

".... the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth, and truth be defamed as lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world - and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end - is being destroyed ... [H.A.]"
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Old February 9th, 2014, 01:24 AM   #3235
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I wrote that 'survey' up in under a minute. I wouldn't take it to heart. If you want to declare as a staunch Catholic then by all means go ahead - don't let that deter you.
Nah, I'm not. I respect your opinion, though.

"Bring me your children, they'll burn
Never look back, never turn.
Cry me a river, you'll learn
Voodoo!
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Old February 12th, 2014, 08:08 AM   #3236
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It is my personal belief that no religion is wrong. Its how you are a follower of it. Almost every religion wants you to be a good person and love all, but that is rarely done. (myself included) I look at it this way, if you are a good person, you live your life good, spread whatever religion you have in a constructive way without harming anybody, and you don't condemn any one kind of people or religion, then you are really doing the essence of faith.

And, even if we who believe in a religion are wrong, then we have still lived good lives and made the world a better place.
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Old February 15th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #3237
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I'm an athiest.
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 04:54 AM   #3238
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I'm Calvinist
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 05:39 AM   #3239
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I believe in God and Jesus as son of God, but I am unfortunatly too young to separate from the church, as I think the Evangelic-Lutheran Church of Finland as a church who modifies it's teaching to the willing of the State. They even collect a "church tax"!
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Old March 7th, 2014, 11:47 PM   #3240
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I was baptized and I'm official a Catholic, but I strongly believe in Voodoo religion as most of my family does.
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