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View Poll Results: Girls: Should infant boys be circumcised?
Yes 9 23.68%
No 26 68.42%
Let baby's Dad decide 3 7.89%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:05 AM   #41
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Originally Posted by Living For Love View Post
Contrary to female circumcision, male circumcision has some health benefits, the thing is that there are other better, simpler, safer, less invasive, less traumatic and non-permanent procedures males can do to obtain the same health benefits with the same efficiency (such has having good genital hygiene etc...). There is also this huge problem named religious freedom, and how a ban on male circumcision would ultimately deny people their religious freedom. Whether we want to accept it or not, the main reason why most religions enforce circumcision is to deprive boys of having sexual pleasure during masturbation. Period. There's absolutely no need to sugar coat it because it's a fact and the Catholic Church (and other religions) have never even tried to conceal it. Now, this begs the question: apart from circumcision done voluntarily or due to health-related reasons, why should we allow male circumcision for religious purposes and ban female circumcision? Because when it comes to religion, both are done because of this whole "sexual modesty" value that religions hold in such high regard, yet people tend to see male circumcision less problematic when it comes to religious purposes.
That is only true in some cases. Jews are circumcised on the eighth day of life. The Catholic Church does not consider circumcision in any way mandatory and they never did.


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Old November 24th, 2017, 03:53 AM   #42
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

It's esentially only aesthetic, the heealth benifits are non-existent if you take proper care, and aren't stupid-use protection-, very rarely ACTUALLY needed. Plus cultural reasons aren't enough, we don't allow people to be thrown in asylums, even though it was culturally acceptable. Cultures change, and it seems that culture is turning away from Circumcision. There are even Jews who disagree and have refused to circumcise their Sons-though really moslty Reform ones from what I know, don't keep up to date-, and have, in fact created their own cerimonies in place of it called Brit Shalom. In fact in those groups who are stopping circumcision see it as a old,barbaric tradition. Only muslims are still adamant about circumcision-though apparently they too aren't requiring it for converts-or at least some have stopped requiring it-, though I don't know about people born into it.

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Old November 24th, 2017, 10:13 AM   #43
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

Which deity wants its subjects to get a piece of their body cut off? Of children who have no idea of religion whatsoever nonetheless. Without their consent. It is an idea made up by people, not by any deity.
Really, how stupid can people be?

If there is a medical problem, yes, fix it. I have no problem with that.

Religious freedom.. what a farce. What if I believe ("my deity tells me") that I have to cut off a finger from any non-believer.. because of "religious freedom" I should be able to do that.
People who circumsize boys at birth do the same: they cut off a part of someone's body who is a non-believer.

I don't care what people believe in. People can believe whatever they want. THAT's religious freedom.
Cutting off someone's bodypart is NOT.

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Old November 25th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #44
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Religious Freedom DOES NOT MEAN "I can do whatever I want in the name of my religion."


That idea has been ruled by the supreme courts over & over again:
  • An employer is not allowed to deny birth control because of "religious beliefs."
  • A parent is not allowed to sacrifice their child even though "god told me to."
  • Religious Racists (KKK) are not allowed to make black people slaves even though "God intended it that way"
  • A parent is not allowed to mutilate a child, starve, or physically hurt them in any other way, even if it's a "religious tradition".
  • A person is not allowed to kill or harm anyone "in the name of god".


You do NOT have a "constitutional right" to chop off parts of baby's dicks.
Or maybe I just missed that line in the constitution somewhere. . .

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Old November 26th, 2017, 02:26 AM   #45
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
Which deity wants its subjects to get a piece of their body cut off? Of children who have no idea of religion whatsoever nonetheless. Without their consent. It is an idea made up by people, not by any deity.
Really, how stupid can people be?

If there is a medical problem, yes, fix it. I have no problem with that.

Religious freedom.. what a farce. What if I believe ("my deity tells me") that I have to cut off a finger from any non-believer.. because of "religious freedom" I should be able to do that.
People who circumsize boys at birth do the same: they cut off a part of someone's body who is a non-believer.

I don't care what people believe in. People can believe whatever they want. THAT's religious freedom.
Cutting off someone's bodypart is NOT.
It's called Judaism. I guess you've never heard of it.

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Religious Freedom DOES NOT MEAN "I can do whatever I want in the name of my religion."


That idea has been ruled by the supreme courts over & over again:
  • An employer is not allowed to deny birth control because of "religious beliefs."
  • A parent is not allowed to sacrifice their child even though "god told me to."
  • Religious Racists (KKK) are not allowed to make black people slaves even though "God intended it that way"
  • A parent is not allowed to mutilate a child, starve, or physically hurt them in any other way, even if it's a "religious tradition".
  • A person is not allowed to kill or harm anyone "in the name of god".


You do NOT have a "constitutional right" to chop off parts of baby's dicks.
Or maybe I just missed that line in the constitution somewhere. . .
Clearly you did. It's a sacrament, not a sacrifice. In the eyes of both religion and the law its few as the same as baptism.


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Old November 26th, 2017, 04:26 AM   #46
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan View Post
Clearly you did. It's a sacrament, not a sacrifice. In the eyes of both religion and the law its few as the same as baptism.
May I ask you what is your opinion on:
- female circumcision;
- burqa/niqab/hijab bans on France and other European countries;
- blood transfusion refusal;


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Old November 26th, 2017, 04:37 AM   #47
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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May I ask you what is your opinion on:
- female circumcision;
- burqa/niqab/hijab bans on France and other European countries;
- blood transfusion refusal;
Of course!

I disagree with female circumcision because it is pointless while most educated people agree that male circumcision has some benefits even if minimal. Also, female circumcision is not part of any faith but unfortunately it does seem to be a social thing.

The burqa, niqab, and hijab bans go too far. I understand for security issues such as a passport. However, to not allow someone to use a bus with it on is going way too far.

I understand that some religions do not allow blood transfusions and if you would rather die than be saved with someone elses blood than i guess that is your choice. I consider myself a left wing progressive.

If anyone wants to debate these issues anymore plz create a different thread. I responded because someone was curious about my opinions because of stuff I have said under this thread.


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Old November 26th, 2017, 05:22 AM   #48
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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I disagree with female circumcision because it is pointless while most educated people agree that male circumcision has some benefits even if minimal. Also, female circumcision is not part of any faith but unfortunately it does seem to be a social thing.
I agree with what you have said, but still, if I want to circumcise my female daughter for any irrelevant reason under my religious freedom, why shouldn't I have the right to do it, in your opinion? (note that in most states, if I had a son instead of a daughter, I'd be able to do it). I'm not talking about health benefits or any other kind of justification for the act, I'm talking about doing it just because I have that freedom. I believe that in most countries, similarly to abortion, if it is your desire to be circumcised as a male, you don't need to give any justification. You want to do it because you want to do it, and that's it. And honestly, I'm fine with it, because it is your desire. So why shouldn't I be able to circumcise my daughter?

Also, you mentioned "social thing". How exactly does that differ from religion? Note that religion is part of culture, and even if we establish that female circumcision is not related to religion (which I believe that, in most cases, it is), what about the freedom I have to participate and celebrate my culture? If it's a cultural thing, shouldn't I have the right to celebrate it and have my daughter also be part of it? (we can compare this to the Indian bindi, for instance).


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Old November 26th, 2017, 06:41 AM   #49
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Also, you mentioned "social thing". How exactly does that differ from religion? Note that religion is part of culture, and even if we establish that female circumcision is not related to religion (which I believe that, in most cases, it is), what about the freedom I have to participate and celebrate my culture? If it's a cultural thing, shouldn't I have the right to celebrate it and have my daughter also be part of it? (we can compare this to the Indian bindi, for instance).
Why? Because as I have stated more than once in posts under this thread, female circumcision is entirely different. You're comparing apples and orange.

Male circumcision has been done since well before common era as a sacrament of marking Jews as followers of or descendents of followers of Abraham. For a brief time many religions encouraged it because they believed it prevented masturbation which is false because contrary to current popular believe it does not make masturbation any less pleasurable. There are also believed to be many health benefits that are minimal but enough the the American Academy of Paediatrics has stated that the benefits of it outweigh the risks.

Female circumcision has no health benefits and is very dangerous. Many females have bleed to death from the procedure as the risks are much higher than male circumcision. It is common by several tribe groups in the middle east because they do not believe that females should be able to experience sexual pleasure. The surgery is usually carried out without any form of anaesthesia in unsafe environments such as the outdoors. The procedure involves removing the entire clit and other parts. The clitoris is the main area where females experience sexual sensations. Cutting it off would be comparable to removing the entire penis and possibly part of the scrotum.

This is the last time that I will respond to anything related to female circumcision under this thread as that isn't what the thread was intended to debate. If anyone has any trouble seeing the difference between the two I recommend that you do more surgery or go see your doctor to get your head examined.


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Old November 27th, 2017, 03:08 AM   #50
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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In the eyes of both religion and the law its few as the same as baptism.
No. There is a difference between peacefully dipping a baby's head in water. . .

AND CHOPPING OFF THEIR DICK SKIN!!!

There are 0 proven health advantages over proper cleaning. That argument is null.

Why are you not okay with Female circumcision, but okay with Male circumcision?
They're both religious traditions, they're both painful, they both have 0 proven medical benefits, they're both unnecessary.
What's the difference?

The ONLY difference is that Male Circumcision has become accepted in society because it has such a long history.
We rejected Female Circumcision because it was not part of American's Christian religious traditions.

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Old November 27th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #51
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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No. There is a difference between peacefully dipping a baby's head in water. . .

AND CHOPPING OFF THEIR DICK SKIN!!!

There are 0 proven health advantages over proper cleaning. That argument is null.

Why are you not okay with Female circumcision, but okay with Male circumcision?
They're both religious traditions, they're both painful, they both have 0 proven medical benefits, they're both unnecessary.
What's the difference?

The ONLY difference is that Male Circumcision has become accepted in society because it has such a long history.
We rejected Female Circumcision because it was not part of American's Christian religious traditions.
I'm honestly not trying to be rude but you need to look this up with credible sources. I am actually quoting the American Academy of Paediatrics.


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Old November 28th, 2017, 02:35 AM   #52
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

To be honest I feel like circumcision should be decided by the man in question and no one else. If he wants his foreskin removed, that's fine. If he doesn't, that's fine as well.

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Old November 28th, 2017, 07:27 AM   #53
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan View Post
I'm honestly not trying to be rude but you need to look this up with credible sources. I am actually quoting the American Academy of Paediatrics.
Alright, well I guess I missed it.

Please quote scientific evidence in favor of Male Circumcision, and source it.

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Old November 28th, 2017, 06:18 PM   #54
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Alright, well I guess I missed it.

Please quote scientific evidence in favor of Male Circumcision, and source it.
The article is about sensitivity in males circumcised at birth.
http://www.jurology.com/article/S002...535-4/abstract
With FGM, when they removed the clitoris, which would be the equivalent of removing the entire glands of the penis. In a circumcision you arent cutting anything of the penis only the skin that covers it.
However in my opinion i wouldnt circumcised my sons at birth. I would try to explain the advantages and some disadvantages of circumcision when they were about 8-12 and if they want they would be circumcised. That way they can decide if they want or not and they arent very old(better cosmetic result, less pain etc..)
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Old November 29th, 2017, 02:49 AM   #55
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To be honest I feel like circumcision should be decided by the man in question and no one else. If he wants his foreskin removed, that's fine. If he doesn't, that's fine as well.
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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Alright, well I guess I missed it.

Please quote scientific evidence in favor of Male Circumcision, and source it.
This is the article that I had in mind.

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-...cumcision.aspx

I'll paraphrase the opening paragraph, "The benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks but not by enough to recommend universal infant male circumcision." In other words, it is more beneficial to have the procedure done but it can't be recommended or it would likely lead to health insurance companies requiring to pay for the surgery.


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Old November 29th, 2017, 03:21 AM   #56
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

How about keeping the integrity of your baby boy's body? Is that too much to ask for?

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Old November 30th, 2017, 12:22 AM   #57
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

Then if it's so useful, why can't any baby born with a health problem have it.literally ask any doctor, let there be a problem, and they LEGALLY CANNOT CIRCUMCISE CAUSE THE RISKS-death, infection, etc- and yet it still has benifits that outweigh the risks? I know cause I can NEVER be circumcised due to the fact my health issues make it too risky. If it's so benifical how can health conditions stop doctors right in their tracks? Try and have a son born with health problems get circumcised, they will tell you no, and if you continue to push, will threaten and will-if you don't give in- take the baby boy away. Tell me if it has so many benifits, then why are doctors legally not allowed to if they are born with health conditions as a baby, and potentially never? The sources online don't tell you everything, cause they don't know everything.

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Old December 1st, 2017, 05:26 AM   #58
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Then if it's so useful, why can't any baby born with a health problem have it.literally ask any doctor, let there be a problem, and they LEGALLY CANNOT CIRCUMCISE CAUSE THE RISKS-death, infection, etc- and yet it still has benifits that outweigh the risks? I know cause I can NEVER be circumcised due to the fact my health issues make it too risky. If it's so benifical how can health conditions stop doctors right in their tracks? Try and have a son born with health problems get circumcised, they will tell you no, and if you continue to push, will threaten and will-if you don't give in- take the baby boy away. Tell me if it has so many benifits, then why are doctors legally not allowed to if they are born with health conditions as a baby, and potentially never? The sources online don't tell you everything, cause they don't know everything.
Most often these health issues don't develop until long after birth. There was no sign that I had an issue until the start of puberty.

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How about keeping the integrity of your baby boy's body? Is that too much to ask for?
That would imply that there is something embarrassing about being circumcised. I assure you that there is not.


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Old December 6th, 2017, 02:53 PM   #59
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Well i think the parents should choose about that.... i dont have an opinion about htis :o
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Old December 7th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #60
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Default Re: Poll: Girls - Infant Circumcision

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Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan View Post
This is the article that I had in mind.

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-...cumcision.aspx

I'll paraphrase the opening paragraph, "The benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks but not by enough to recommend universal infant male circumcision." In other words, it is more beneficial to have the procedure done but it can't be recommended or it would likely lead to health insurance companies requiring to pay for the surgery.
They never quoted any actual studies. That's just an argument from authority.

Here's the AAP again, and look at the only benefits they reference: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ent/103/3/686\

"In 1989, because of new research on circumcision status and urinary tract infection (UTI) and sexually transmitted disease (STD)/acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, the Academy concluded that newborn male circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages as well as disadvantages and risks."

1.) Urinary Tract Infection rates are low, and can be easily stopped with antibiotics.

2.) The difference between STD/HIV rates are slim and only particularly prevalent in third-world countries. Condoms are the only way to guarantee yourself against STD's, and they're much less harmful.

So the only benefits they claim are unnecessary.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a published study showcasing the statistics of complications from circumcision:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20158883

The median frequency of any complication was 1.5% (range 0-16%).
Child circumcision by medical providers tended to be associated with more complications (median frequency 6%; range 2-14%).

[1.5% of circumcisions have complications.]

Here is a published study showcasing reduced penile sensitivity in circumcised men:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102

"For the glans penis, circumcised men reported decreased sexual pleasure and lower orgasm intensity. They also stated more effort was required to achieve orgasm, and a higher percentage of them experienced unusual sensations (burning, prickling, itching, or tingling and numbness of the glans penis). For the penile shaft a higher percentage of circumcised men described discomfort and pain, numbness and unusual sensations."

Now show me a published study showcasing the benefits of circumcision. and then we can compare them.

But if circumcision doesn't have a significant health/medical benefit, then we shouldn't let parents do this to their kids.

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