Virtual Teen Forums
 

Go Back   Virtual Teen Forums > >
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Chat Room

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 22nd, 2019, 04:28 PM   #41
ChrisA1998
Member++
 
Name: Chris
Join Date: February 12, 2013
Location: UK
Gender: Male
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamant View Post
I get that ( my dad's parents say that too) but then some people say the whole world has changed anyway so maybe its not just the E.U. thing.
Before EU, my grand mother used to sell her chickens or products she made herself at the farm, and she never had any issues whatsoever
Then the EU came out along with its bunch of idiots in their suits and tie, who imposed tons of norms and conformities which cost a fortune to put in place, and if you cant conform, you're told, sorry ma'am, you cant sell your products.

Then EU comes out and asks why it is so difficult to be a farmer...
Likes: (1)
ChrisA1998 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2019, 05:48 PM   #42
ShineintheDark
Awesome Poster
 
Name: Magnus
Join Date: April 11, 2017
Location: United Kingdom
Gender: Male
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisA1998 View Post
Before EU, my grand mother used to sell her chickens or products she made herself at the farm, and she never had any issues whatsoever
Then the EU came out along with its bunch of idiots in their suits and tie, who imposed tons of norms and conformities which cost a fortune to put in place, and if you cant conform, you're told, sorry ma'am, you cant sell your products.

Then EU comes out and asks why it is so difficult to be a farmer...
I don't doubt that you have a multitude of very reasonable qualms with the EU but are you really gonna lead with 'food standards suck cos I can't sell unchecked products any more'?
ShineintheDark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2019, 06:28 PM   #43
lliam
Awesome Poster
 
lliam's Forum Picture
 
Name: Liam
Join Date: July 29, 2015
Location: The hill above the big lake, opposed to the big city on the mainland.
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisA1998 View Post
Then the EU came out along with its bunch of idiots in their suits and tie, who

We live in the era of globalization. Whether bureaucracy now happens at the level of a community of states such as the EU or only at the contractual level of fewer states, I'm certain that grandmas more and more won't sell their products in order to make a proper living from it.





"Life is that prison you'll never leave alive."



lliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2019, 05:09 PM   #44
ChrisA1998
Member++
 
Name: Chris
Join Date: February 12, 2013
Location: UK
Gender: Male
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by lliam View Post
We live in the era of globalization. Whether bureaucracy now happens at the level of a community of states such as the EU or only at the contractual level of fewer states, I'm certain that grandmas more and more won't sell their products in order to make a proper living from it.
thanks for your enlightenment captain obvious
ChrisA1998 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2019, 09:35 AM   #45
Lucy G
Member
 
Lucy G's Forum Picture
 
Name: Lucy
Join Date: May 17, 2017
Location: Near Brighton, UK
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by lliam View Post
We live in the era of globalization. Whether bureaucracy now happens at the level of a community of states such as the EU or only at the contractual level of fewer states, I'm certain that grandmas more and more won't sell their products in order to make a proper living from it.
As I understand it, the EU is more or less supposed to operate to same standards and present itself as 'one' entity?
Presumably that would imply, at some stage, that all the costs associated with manufacturing / growing food etc etc should be at the same level and also vat rates and local taxes should be the same?

If this is the case, how come all the EU countries operate with different VAT rates? Also the strategy behind the EU, if I read it correctly, means that all costs of living would actually be the same, whether in the UK or in Greece for example.

This is clearly nonsense - there is no way that all the EU member countries could somehow align their costs.

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
the restless dreams of youth
Lucy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2019, 01:03 PM   #46
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
As I understand it, the EU is more or less supposed to operate to same standards and present itself as 'one' entity?
Presumably that would imply, at some stage, that all the costs associated with manufacturing / growing food etc etc should be at the same level and also vat rates and local taxes should be the same?

If this is the case, how come all the EU countries operate with different VAT rates? Also the strategy behind the EU, if I read it correctly, means that all costs of living would actually be the same, whether in the UK or in Greece for example.

This is clearly nonsense - there is no way that all the EU member countries could somehow align their costs.
The EU does not want the same prices, costs, taxes, etc everywhere. That would be unrealistic.
The EU wants to make internal trade (whether they be goods, services or workforce) easier. If I want to, I can work in Ireland, Bulgaria and Spain without any problems. I can simply pack up my stuff here, get a house and a job in whichever country and go.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2019, 11:18 PM   #47
lliam
Awesome Poster
 
lliam's Forum Picture
 
Name: Liam
Join Date: July 29, 2015
Location: The hill above the big lake, opposed to the big city on the mainland.
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
As I understand it, the EU is more or less supposed to operate to same standards and present itself as 'one' entity? ...
How does that apply to my statement?

My post was a generally statement about globalization in relation to an excessive bureaucracy in countries or unions of coexisting states (such as the EU), which gives so-called global players the opportunity to play off national or federal bureaucracies against each other.



as for your statement, I partly agree but would like somehow to refer to Evas post.





"Life is that prison you'll never leave alive."



lliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2019, 11:13 AM   #48
Lucy G
Member
 
Lucy G's Forum Picture
 
Name: Lucy
Join Date: May 17, 2017
Location: Near Brighton, UK
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
The EU does not want the same prices, costs, taxes, etc everywhere. That would be unrealistic.
The EU wants to make internal trade (whether they be goods, services or workforce) easier. If I want to, I can work in Ireland, Bulgaria and Spain without any problems. I can simply pack up my stuff here, get a house and a job in whichever country and go.
Surely though the whole idea of a European State is that the costs associated with the members should be similar? I'm all for easier trade that makes obvious sense but I thought the idea of being able to move / work in other member states applied to workers only and not entire families? Is it not free movement of workers rather than people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lliam View Post
How does that apply to my statement?

My post was a generally statement about globalization in relation to an excessive bureaucracy in countries or unions of coexisting states (such as the EU), which gives so-called global players the opportunity to play off national or federal bureaucracies against each other.



as for your statement, I partly agree but would like somehow to refer to Evas post.
But the idea behind the EU surely in the early days was to inter-trade? The political and money tie ups seem to have come along later. If I am to understand this, the EU sees itself as having a major bargaining tool of all the countries within it rather than individual countries doing it alone. In this case there are bound to be globalisation issues because the people behind the trade agreements are only looking at the big numbers.

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
the restless dreams of youth
Lucy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2019, 11:34 AM   #49
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
Surely though the whole idea of a European State is that the costs associated with the members should be similar? I'm all for easier trade that makes obvious sense but I thought the idea of being able to move / work in other member states applied to workers only and not entire families? Is it not free movement of workers rather than people?
It is free movement for people, not just workers. However, if you have no income, you will not get any support from your new government.
The EU also does not want a "European State". The countries will remain independent, but will closely work together for the benefit of all.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2019, 08:25 AM   #50
Lucy G
Member
 
Lucy G's Forum Picture
 
Name: Lucy
Join Date: May 17, 2017
Location: Near Brighton, UK
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
It is free movement for people, not just workers. However, if you have no income, you will not get any support from your new government.
The EU also does not want a "European State". The countries will remain independent, but will closely work together for the benefit of all.
It doesn't look as if the UK is going to be a part of this set up anyway come the end of March although it doesn't seem that the government has the faintest idea what its doing

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
the restless dreams of youth
Lucy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2019, 10:22 AM   #51
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
It doesn't look as if the UK is going to be a part of this set up anyway come the end of March although it doesn't seem that the government has the faintest idea what its doing
You're right. Without some kind of deal, the UK will not be a part of the free movement of goods, people and services anymore. And it doesn't look like there will be a deal between the UK and the EU. UK's government, parliament and population are heavily divided and I don't see any deal in the next month. And that will be VERY bad for the EU and for the UK. And especially for Ireland, I might add.

The best thing that can happen in my opinion, is that there is another referendum in the UK where the majority votes Remain. Then all this nonsense (although it has cost a lot of money already) can be rectified, the UK stays in the EU and we're all together moving forward from there.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2019, 10:29 AM   #52
Lucy G
Member
 
Lucy G's Forum Picture
 
Name: Lucy
Join Date: May 17, 2017
Location: Near Brighton, UK
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
You're right. Without some kind of deal, the UK will not be a part of the free movement of goods, people and services anymore. And it doesn't look like there will be a deal between the UK and the EU. UK's government, parliament and population are heavily divided and I don't see any deal in the next month. And that will be VERY bad for the EU and for the UK. And especially for Ireland, I might add.

The best thing that can happen in my opinion, is that there is another referendum in the UK where the majority votes Remain. Then all this nonsense (although it has cost a lot of money already) can be rectified, the UK stays in the EU and we're all together moving forward from there.
However doesn't that somehow go against democracy? Whether you voted remain or stay the government can't simply decide that, because of its own incompetence in handling the situation, the easiest thing to do would be to hold another referendum and hope the decision is changed. Despite the obvious mess this has caused, the will of the people was to leave.

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
the restless dreams of youth
Lucy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2019, 10:46 AM   #53
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
However doesn't that somehow go against democracy? Whether you voted remain or stay the government can't simply decide that, because of its own incompetence in handling the situation, the easiest thing to do would be to hold another referendum and hope the decision is changed. Despite the obvious mess this has caused, the will of the people was to leave.
Why would that go against democracy? Democracy is power to the people. How much more democratic can a country be than to ask the people? For practical reasons "we" have elected a group of people to handle everything for us: the government and parliament. Referendums are per definition more democratic than having a government that doesn't ask the population (but are, of course, very unpractical, because they cost time, effort and money).

The general consensus in a country can change due to various reasons. In this case for example that leaving the EU is not as easy as people think, and that there are a lot more negative consequences than they thought. They might rethink their decision. If the majority votes Remain, it would be against the will of the people to go ahead with leaving the EU (very non-democratic).
And if the majority still votes Leave, then it's clear: the majority wants to leave. And then the government should do everything to make that wish happen.
A new referendum gives clarity.

Oh, and it's not about what is easiest; it's about what is best for the country.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2019, 10:55 AM   #54
Lucy G
Member
 
Lucy G's Forum Picture
 
Name: Lucy
Join Date: May 17, 2017
Location: Near Brighton, UK
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
Why would that go against democracy? Democracy is power to the people. How much more democratic can a country be than to ask the people? For practical reasons "we" have elected a group of people to handle everything for us: the government and parliament. Referendums are per definition more democratic than having a government that doesn't ask the population (but are, of course, very unpractical, because they cost time, effort and money).

The general consensus in a country can change due to various reasons. In this case for example that leaving the EU is not as easy as people think, and that there are a lot more negative consequences than they thought. They might rethink their decision. If the majority votes Remain, it would be against the will of the people to go ahead with leaving the EU (very non-democratic).
And if the majority still votes Leave, then it's clear: the majority wants to leave. And then the government should do everything to make that wish happen.
A new referendum gives clarity.

Oh, and it's not about what is easiest; it's about what is best for the country.
Wasn't the democracy the original referendum? The people voted and they voted to leave, whether that turns out to be a good thing or not isn't for me to say.

And if there were a second referendum (because the Govt can't handle the decision or the implications) and the result were to remain, what would that spell out to the 52% of the people who voted to leave originally?

Do you study politics by any chance? I'm really not trying to argue with you honestly, but our PM time and time again (ad nauseam) has confirmed we are to leave on March 29th and there will be no second referendum.

I think the real issue is that the clear facts of staying or remaining were certainly not made obvious at the time and people voted to leave based on one or two 'persuasions'. It seems to me (at 15) that there's a huge amount of untangling to be done which I don't think the average person would have had a clue about.

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
the restless dreams of youth
Lucy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2019, 12:01 PM   #55
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
Wasn't the democracy the original referendum? The people voted and they voted to leave, whether that turns out to be a good thing or not isn't for me to say.

And if there were a second referendum (because the Govt can't handle the decision or the implications) and the result were to remain, what would that spell out to the 52% of the people who voted to leave originally?

Do you study politics by any chance? I'm really not trying to argue with you honestly, but our PM time and time again (ad nauseam) has confirmed we are to leave on March 29th and there will be no second referendum.

I think the real issue is that the clear facts of staying or remaining were certainly not made obvious at the time and people voted to leave based on one or two 'persuasions'. It seems to me (at 15) that there's a huge amount of untangling to be done which I don't think the average person would have had a clue about.
Democracy isn't one specific thing happening at one specific time. Democracy is an ongoing thing. People can and do change their minds often. I know I do: what to wear today..
But when it comes to important matters, I try to inform myself to the best of my abilities. And I agree with you that all the options and consequences were not presented at the time of the first referendum. One could even argue its validity because of it.
I think that a lot of British citizens voted Leave because they got misinformed. If a public figure yells "The EU is bad for us!" there will be a lot of people simply cheering him on, and not thinking whether it is really true what he said.

If a second referendum were to result in Remain, then at least some of the 52% will have changed their mind

I don't study politics Arguing is fine! Discussion is fine! It actually helps both sides move forward.
The date in March was set a long time ago and that cannot be changed. That May says there will not be another referendum is, in my opinion, politics, and doesn't have much to do with actually doing what is best for the country.

The member states of the EU have SO many common regulations, laws and other agreements between them, that it's not simply a case of "ok, now we stop paying our fee to the EU and everything will run as normal". And the latter is what I think a lot of Leave voters thought.
Goods, people and services cannot go from the EU to the UK as easily. The goods and people will have to be checked at the border. Customs officers and equipment need to be hired and bought.
For many branches the EU has set up one office to check on the quality of goods, for example medication. All the EU member states have agreed to follow their verdict. But if the UK leaves, they will not be able to follow that verdict just like that. They need such an institution of themselves to test medication and their verdict will be valid for the UK. But setting that up costs hundreds of millions.
And there are many more things that the common citizen has no clue about and therefor didn't take into consideration when they have to vote. Not only with this referendum btw, this happens with every election, but of course, a Brexit referendum has far more consequences than a local election.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2019, 07:37 AM   #56
lliam
Awesome Poster
 
lliam's Forum Picture
 
Name: Liam
Join Date: July 29, 2015
Location: The hill above the big lake, opposed to the big city on the mainland.
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Brexit

The result of the Brexit referendum came about because voters voted for emotional and almost non-rational reasons. The entire campaigns till the voting also dripped with populism and misinformation just to address the emotional side of the voters.

And if I remember correctly, very conservative old people in particular dominated the outcome of the referendum. If the two generations, who weren't yet allowed to vote at that time, would've voted, the result was considered on pro-stay. Certainly not with a considerable dominance for "staying", but at least a majority.


A second referendum never made much sense to me. And if Brits really want to go back EU, they can work towards it and elect politicians who push it.

But I guess, at least for the next two decades, this will be utopian wishful thinking. I'm more concerned of that EU politicians will not realize that the current status quo of the EU must be reconsidered.

Above all, the excessive bureaucracy must be radically reduced. What imo should be the main goal in European policies for the next few decades.





"Life is that prison you'll never leave alive."



lliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2019, 08:03 AM   #57
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

I agree. The EU as it is, is far from perfect. And bureaucracy definitely needs to be addressed.
And the move of everything (members of European Parliament, documents, support staff, translators, catering, etc etc) for a few days per month from Brussels to Strasbourg is something that cannot be explained in a rational way. If there is ever a total waste of money, it is this move.

But cooperation is the way forward. It is even necessary to be able to keep a competitive position in the world. Brexit is a huge step backwards in that respect. Not just financially, but maybe even more so when it comes to morale.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2019, 10:36 AM   #58
lliam
Awesome Poster
 
lliam's Forum Picture
 
Name: Liam
Join Date: July 29, 2015
Location: The hill above the big lake, opposed to the big city on the mainland.
Age: 18
Gender: Male
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Brexit

If Brexit would lead EU politicians to learn something from it, Brexit would even be a breakthrough in EU history. But I don't have much hope that this will ever happen.

Especially because the zeitgeist shows up no tendency to a co-operative coexistence of all memberstates and there are hardly any politicians left who can be called true EU politicians.

Another indicator that doubts are justified to me is my dad.

I actually know him more as an EU-phile dude, but he too can hardly imagine spending his time within the EU after retiring. He bought a property in Canada to live there after retirement with my stepmom. And he certainly just doesn't do so, because probably all of his kids will live somewhere abroad in their future. He just got tired of the EU. A bad sign, for a man used to be straight optimistic.





"Life is that prison you'll never leave alive."



lliam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2019, 10:00 AM   #59
Lucy G
Member
 
Lucy G's Forum Picture
 
Name: Lucy
Join Date: May 17, 2017
Location: Near Brighton, UK
Age: 15
Gender: Female
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by lliam View Post

And if I remember correctly, very conservative old people in particular dominated the outcome of the referendum. If the two generations, who weren't yet allowed to vote at that time, would've voted, the result was considered on pro-stay. Certainly not with a considerable dominance for "staying", but at least a majority.
Presumably that would be true of any election though? Because your age depends on your ability to vote (18 here I think) there would be scenarios such as these after every general election whereby those who just fell below the age limit 'might' have had an influence on the outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
I agree. The EU as it is, is far from perfect. And bureaucracy definitely needs to be addressed.
And the move of everything (members of European Parliament, documents, support staff, translators, catering, etc etc) for a few days per month from Brussels to Strasbourg is something that cannot be explained in a rational way. If there is ever a total waste of money, it is this move.
I suspect that a number of those who voted to leave would quote exactly that point - the total and utter waste of money spent on such nonsense simply to appease the French. Added to which the fact that none of these 'elected EU politicians seem to be elected at all and furthermore even if they do a bad job, they have a job for life!

The more I read up on this the more I can totally understand why UK voted to leave.

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
the restless dreams of youth
Lucy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2019, 10:08 AM   #60
EvaNL
Nice Poster
 
Name: Goodbye
Join Date: February 23, 2017
Gender: Undisclosed
Default Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy G
I suspect that a number of those who voted to leave would quote exactly that point - the total and utter waste of money spent on such nonsense simply to appease the French. Added to which the fact that none of these 'elected EU politicians seem to be elected at all and furthermore even if they do a bad job, they have a job for life!

The more I read up on this the more I can totally understand why UK voted to leave.
Of course the EU has to change things, but leaving the EU is just plain stupid. Sure, very short term it gives a powerful feeling ("Hah! Look what we did!"), but middle and long term it costs a LOT of money (and even short term it costs a LOT of money). People tend to think very short term and forget long term.

And the fact that these elected EU politicians are not elected at all: where did you get that nonsense? There are EU elections every 5 years. The next one being the end of May this year.
And if you do a bad job as a EU member of parliament, you do not "have a job for life".
But again, yes, the EU has to change many things.

Gone because of excessive trolling
EvaNL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright©2000 - 2019
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, VirtualTeen.org