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Old February 21st, 2019, 10:17 AM   #61
Lucy G
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Default Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by EvaNL View Post
Of course the EU has to change things, but leaving the EU is just plain stupid. Sure, very short term it gives a powerful feeling ("Hah! Look what we did!"), but middle and long term it costs a LOT of money (and even short term it costs a LOT of money). People tend to think very short term and forget long term.

And the fact that these elected EU politicians are not elected at all: where did you get that nonsense? There are EU elections every 5 years. The next one being the end of May this year.
And if you do a bad job as a EU member of parliament, you do not "have a job for life".
But again, yes, the EU has to change many things.
I spoke to my father about this. He has a very close friend who works in BRU almost next door to the EU HQ. A number of times this friend has been invited to participate in seminars which seem to turn into a bribe for some sort of confidence vote. I don't have (or pretend to understand) the exact details, but safe to imply that corruption exists (as it does everywhere I guess). As for the job for life, said friend also has had it confirmed that unless one of these people is found to be criminally active, they have a job (and pension) until they more or less die.

I'm not sure who votes for these people. Do we as a country?

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Old February 21st, 2019, 10:31 AM   #62
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Default Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
I spoke to my father about this. He has a very close friend who works in BRU almost next door to the EU HQ. A number of times this friend has been invited to participate in seminars which seem to turn into a bribe for some sort of confidence vote. I don't have (or pretend to understand) the exact details, but safe to imply that corruption exists (as it does everywhere I guess). As for the job for life, said friend also has had it confirmed that unless one of these people is found to be criminally active, they have a job (and pension) until they more or less die.

I'm not sure who votes for these people. Do we as a country?
Corruption is everywhere indeed. Also in the UK government (and the Dutch, and the EU). And that has to be addressed, no doubt about that.

They don't have a job for life. They can simply be voted out, or not be put on the election list at all. As for a pension: as far as I know that's true. As it is in the UK and every other country in the EU (and elsewhere).

Every EU citizen (18 and over and not being excluded by law) is eligible to vote. Just like national elections. You go to a polling station and vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_E...ament_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electi...ean_Parliament

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Old February 21st, 2019, 11:01 AM   #63
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Corruption is everywhere indeed. Also in the UK government (and the Dutch, and the EU). And that has to be addressed, no doubt about that.

They don't have a job for life. They can simply be voted out, or not be put on the election list at all. As for a pension: as far as I know that's true. As it is in the UK and every other country in the EU (and elsewhere).

Every EU citizen (18 and over and not being excluded by law) is eligible to vote. Just like national elections. You go to a polling station and vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_E...ament_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electi...ean_Parliament
The whole scheme sounds like a huge mess to me, and jobs for the boys!
I can understand totally the idea of a trading position (which the EEC used to be I think) but it seems to have become a huge dog's dinner when political and monetary integration were introduced. The Euro has hardly done Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal much good.

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
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Old February 21st, 2019, 11:22 AM   #64
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The whole scheme sounds like a huge mess to me, and jobs for the boys!
I can understand totally the idea of a trading position (which the EEC used to be I think) but it seems to have become a huge dog's dinner when political and monetary integration were introduced. The Euro has hardly done Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal much good.
Like I said: a lot still has to change. The EU is far from perfect, but international cooperation is necessary. Leaving the EU is a huge step backwards and its effects will be felt throughout Europe for decades.

Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal have greatly benefited from the Euro (investments, trade, subsidies, tourism, etc). However, their governments have systematically made the numbers look good while they weren't, in order not to be punished by the EU. Their financial mismanagement has nothing to do with the Euro; it would have surfaced sooner or later with their own currency too (and the consequences for those countries would have been WAY worse than with the EU backing them).
Of course, the EU should not have believed them on their blue eyes, but should have checked (not just those countries, all of them) the books more carefully.

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Old March 17th, 2019, 02:49 PM   #65
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The best thing that can happen in my opinion, is that there is another referendum in the UK where the majority votes Remain. Then all this nonsense (although it has cost a lot of money already) can be rectified, the UK stays in the EU and we're all together moving forward from there.
LOL ! that would be saying to the citizens "sorry guys you didn't vote the way we wanted, so please vote again, and this time vote like we want" LOL

people vowed their opinion, going against what they said is not democracy
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Old March 18th, 2019, 09:47 AM   #66
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LOL ! that would be saying to the citizens "sorry guys you didn't vote the way we wanted, so please vote again, and this time vote like we want" LOL

people vowed their opinion, going against what they said is not democracy
Your point would absolutely stand if this referendum would have taken place like a week after the first. But it's been nearly 3 years now - the British public now KNOW what leaving the EU looks like, they KNOW what the deal on the table is and they now arguably have the right to have their personal views heard. Think of it like buying a house: 3 years ago the public declared they're not happy with the house they have and want to move. Fair enough, nothing wrong with that if that's what they really want. Now, we've viewed the new house, we've taken a look at the price and we've weighed what we will get out of it and what sacrifices we have to make to get this new house. A referendum now isn't asking 'do you wanna move house?' it's asking 'is this what you want or should we explore other houses?'
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Old April 15th, 2019, 08:10 AM   #67
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Your point would absolutely stand if this referendum would have taken place like a week after the first. But it's been nearly 3 years now - the British public now KNOW what leaving the EU looks like, they KNOW what the deal on the table is and they now arguably have the right to have their personal views heard. Think of it like buying a house: 3 years ago the public declared they're not happy with the house they have and want to move. Fair enough, nothing wrong with that if that's what they really want. Now, we've viewed the new house, we've taken a look at the price and we've weighed what we will get out of it and what sacrifices we have to make to get this new house. A referendum now isn't asking 'do you wanna move house?' it's asking 'is this what you want or should we explore other houses?'
As we seem to be in complete limbo with this and going nowhere fast, it would appear that because the country and the MPs are split more or less 50/50, not much is going to happen, at least to satisfy any kind of majority.

However coming back to your point about the referendum and offering people another choice, could that also not be leveled at any General Election result on the basis that people might be disappointed (after electing one or other party into power) that the pathway being trodden by whichever party was not exactly as people thought it might be progressed. I don't recall (from reading history) that people were offered a further choice after a few demonstrations by opposition supporters (Thatcher years spring to immediate mind). The only logical way to change government prior to their elected time in power coming to a lawful end would be on a no-confidence vote.

I'm not in disagreement with another referendum as such but I think the only choices should be those which list the kind of Brexit we wish for. These probably being:
1 May Deal
2 Canada ++ (although that can vary on understandings)
3 No deal

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Old April 15th, 2019, 10:36 AM   #68
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As we seem to be in complete limbo with this and going nowhere fast, it would appear that because the country and the MPs are split more or less 50/50, not much is going to happen, at least to satisfy any kind of majority.

However coming back to your point about the referendum and offering people another choice, could that also not be leveled at any General Election result on the basis that people might be disappointed (after electing one or other party into power) that the pathway being trodden by whichever party was not exactly as people thought it might be progressed. I don't recall (from reading history) that people were offered a further choice after a few demonstrations by opposition supporters (Thatcher years spring to immediate mind). The only logical way to change government prior to their elected time in power coming to a lawful end would be on a no-confidence vote.
Well, the Fixed Term Parliaments Act was only passed into law in 2010, making parliaments last a default of 5 years unless 2/3rds of the house agree to adjourn early. No Confidence motions are slightly different in that they mean nothing in themselves: a government can still go on if parliament votes against it, it'll just look castrated and with no mandate. Before then, governments could and often would determine how long they went without elections; the Blair-Brown administration went 6 whole years without one.
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I'm not in disagreement with another referendum as such but I think the only choices should be those which list the kind of Brexit we wish for. These probably being:
1 May Deal
2 Canada ++ (although that can vary on understandings)
3 No deal
The truth is that, general elections and the referendum are very different things - we have a guaranteed general election every regular period with NO options off the table as to whom can form a government. The referendum you propose would not be guaranteed and would exclude options that YOU have deemed unworthy of being voted on (Norway Deal, newly-negotiated Customs Union, and most prominently Revoking Article 50 among other options).
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Old April 15th, 2019, 10:47 AM   #69
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The truth is that, general elections and the referendum are very different things - we have a guaranteed general election every regular period with NO options off the table as to whom can form a government. The referendum you propose would not be guaranteed and would exclude options that YOU have deemed unworthy of being voted on (Norway Deal, newly-negotiated Customs Union, and most prominently Revoking Article 50 among other options).
I think Cameron tried to negotiate for a newly reformed EU didn't he? Because of the EU digging their heels in, we're more or less in the mess we're in now.

There are any number of options available according to the recent votes in Parliament (all of which were defeated by my memory). The current customs union means that should we stay in it, then our ability to trade unilaterally with other countries in negated, unless we can somehow force the EU to allow us to negotiate free from the EU regulations.

Revoking article 50 surely would be a kick in the face of those who voted to leave (whether it turns out to be a good outcome or not) and solve nothing.

And if I understand it correctly, if the initial referendum (according to some) was not legally binding, presumably that same logic would apply to any subsequent referendum?

Any escape might help to smooth
the unattractive truth
But the suburbs hold no charms to soothe
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Old April 15th, 2019, 10:49 AM   #70
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I think Cameron tried to negotiate for a newly reformed EU didn't he? Because of the EU digging their heels in, we're more or less in the mess we're in now.

There are any number of options available according to the recent votes in Parliament (all of which were defeated by my memory). The current customs union means that should we stay in it, then our ability to trade unilaterally with other countries in negated, unless we can somehow force the EU to allow us to negotiate free from the EU regulations.

Revoking article 50 surely would be a kick in the face of those who voted to leave (whether it turns out to be a good outcome or not) and solve nothing.

And if I understand it correctly, if the initial referendum (according to some) was not legally binding, presumably that same logic would apply to any subsequent referendum?
Precisely. No option is great for everyone. No option makes everyone happy and no option is guaranteed to be delivered. Time to just watch the politicians wade through this
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Old April 15th, 2019, 11:02 AM   #71
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Precisely. No option is great for everyone. No option makes everyone happy and no option is guaranteed to be delivered. Time to just watch the politicians wade through this
Not that I'm a politician or anything, but I'd probably have gone for no deal, simply to draw a line under the whole mess and allow people to progress to the next stage. I can't believe the entire country would come a complete halt as many 'remainers' have indicated. We have the 5th biggest economy in the world - people are still going to need to trade both ways and come to satisfactory arrangements.

My main criticism is that of the lack of immediate action once the result were known. It seems that only the last 6 months have been afforded any serious attention into this; it's clearly a much bigger issue than anyone assumed, including the alleged knowledgeable politicians, who seems unable to run a bath let alone a country.

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Old April 15th, 2019, 11:41 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
My main criticism is that of the lack of immediate action once the result were known. It seems that only the last 6 months have been afforded any serious attention into this; it's clearly a much bigger issue than anyone assumed, including the alleged knowledgeable politicians, who seems unable to run a bath let alone a country.
This is absolutely right. They should have been trying to sort it out nearly 3 years ago and not just the last few months. All the politicians are interested in is getting reelected rather than what's good for the country and its citizens.
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Old April 15th, 2019, 07:09 PM   #73
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Not that I'm a politician or anything, but I'd probably have gone for no deal, simply to draw a line under the whole mess and allow people to progress to the next stage. I can't believe the entire country would come a complete halt as many 'remainers' have indicated. We have the 5th biggest economy in the world - people are still going to need to trade both ways and come to satisfactory arrangements.
It'd be naive to think the UK would be perfectly fine if we crashed out without a deal: trade would reach a temporary standstill to allow for it to restart under WTO rules; all EU nationals living in the UK may have to suddenly leave if no agreement occurs and vice versa for ex-pats living in the EU; all resources and goods we currently receive daily in large bulks would suddenly be stopped, leading to stockpiling of medicines, machine parts, imported foodstuffs among other things; none of this even mentions the border issue in Northern Ireland that would simply revert to a hard border if no deal at all is agreed. As much as Troubles 2.0 would be what Westminster deserves for ignoring the issue for so long, no one who actually lives there would ever want that. The UK is currently 5th largest economy on the back of its current trading arrangements and status quo of business - if no suitable replacement for EU membership is agreed, the UK inevitably would have to suffer a period of sudden change around before it is able to trade as efficiently again, meaning the economy's place would slip albeit by at least a few places.

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Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
My main criticism is that of the lack of immediate action once the result were known. It seems that only the last 6 months have been afforded any serious attention into this; it's clearly a much bigger issue than anyone assumed, including the alleged knowledgeable politicians, who seems unable to run a bath let alone a country.
I agree with this. When David Davis was forced to admit he had made no impact assessments at the end of 2016 despite months of supposed preparation, I began to realise how little work Brexit secretaries actually do. David Davis achieved nothing of value; Dominic Raab achieved nothing of value; Stephen Barclay is achieving nothing of value. All they did during their tenures was rock up with bullish red lines and bitched when the EU said no. THAT'S what happens when you send ERG Conservatives to Brussels to negotiate a deal: they won't negotiate something they fundamentally disagree with and frequently campaign against. Whether you're left or right, everyone can agree the government royally screwed it's 3 years of negotiations.
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