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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:25 AM   #1
Lucy G
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Default Brexit

Ok so I'm 15 and I don't even begin to understand politics or how some of these people managed to get their positions, but it seems to me that the lunatics (in the UK) are now running the asylum. I've been swatting up lately to try and gain some insight as to how we manged to get ourselves into this awful mess.

I was wondering what others thought of the current UK position and how we are viewed from afar?

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Old January 11th, 2019, 09:55 AM   #2
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I don’t really understand it all, but it sounds a complete mess and nobody actually knows what is going on and what will happen, they can’t even make their minds up on a deal, I wouldn’t trust these people with a pet hamster

So this is how it feels to be lonely
This is how it feels to be small
This is how it feels when your word means nothing at all
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Old January 11th, 2019, 11:21 AM   #3
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I've totally forgotten about it to be honest. Most people in my class wanted to leave the EU ages ago but I still don't know if that's good.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 12:50 PM   #4
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Default Re: Brexit

My basic understanding of Brexit is that at the end of March this year the UK is set to leave the European Union. Some deals could be negotiated between the UK and EU to have certain trade and immigration agreements, or we could leave with absolutely no deal at all (this is seen as not ideal at all, but some donít think itís that bad). If we are really struck with struggles to reach a deal the UK could argue to have the leave date postponed so that we leave the EU later, or we take back Brexit entirely (although this is very, very unlikely).
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Old January 11th, 2019, 02:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Brexit

I don't know bout England but here
in the USA we have a circus with a
bunch of clowns.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 07:02 PM   #6
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June 2016 Britain voted to leave the European and officially declared their intention during March the following year to the European Parliament. We've spent the last 2 years negotiating the terms of our departure, some of which is economic (trade deals, divorce bills, custom unions etc), some of which is immigration-related (status of EU nationals currently residing in the UK, new immigration policies, status of UK citizens living in the EU etc) and some of which is related to a very important issue - Ireland. Under the Good Friday Agreement (1997) citizens of Northern Ireland (a part of the UK) were granted the option of dual status as both British and Irish citizens with the right to live and work on either side of the border - something both being part of the EU allowed them to do. Now with Northern Ireland leaving with the rest of the UK, that right therefore has to end and so could lead to a resurgence of the same issues that caused the conflicts in the first place: some (predominantly Catholic) Northern Irish citizens feel Northern Ireland is rightfully Irish whilst others (predominantly Protestant) feel it's rightfully British and will fight and bomb each other over it if they feel it's the only way they will be heard. None of us want that again so Ireland is a really important thing we need to negotiate.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 05:35 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ska8er View Post
I don't know bout England but here
in the USA we have a circus with a
bunch of clowns.
Ran by Donald Duck
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Old January 12th, 2019, 08:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: Brexit

We discussed this in my geography class and our conclusion was, that brits will probably have another referendum about stsying in the EU... I myself cant see why would anyone want to leave the EU..
leaving NATO i understand, but not the EU

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Old January 12th, 2019, 09:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
June 2016 Britain voted to leave the European and officially declared their intention during March the following year to the European Parliament. We've spent the last 2 years negotiating the terms of our departure, some of which is economic (trade deals, divorce bills, custom unions etc), some of which is immigration-related (status of EU nationals currently residing in the UK, new immigration policies, status of UK citizens living in the EU etc) and some of which is related to a very important issue - Ireland. Under the Good Friday Agreement (1997) citizens of Northern Ireland (a part of the UK) were granted the option of dual status as both British and Irish citizens with the right to live and work on either side of the border - something both being part of the EU allowed them to do. Now with Northern Ireland leaving with the rest of the UK, that right therefore has to end and so could lead to a resurgence of the same issues that caused the conflicts in the first place: some (predominantly Catholic) Northern Irish citizens feel Northern Ireland is rightfully Irish whilst others (predominantly Protestant) feel it's rightfully British and will fight and bomb each other over it if they feel it's the only way they will be heard. None of us want that again so Ireland is a really important thing we need to negotiate.
So the Ireland issue is the backstop that keeps being promoted?
Under the current arrangement negotiated by the PM, I gather Northern Ireland will remain part of the EU whilst we won't? That seems highly strange.

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Old January 12th, 2019, 10:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: Brexit

We talked about it in school and I guess I don’t get it, but like to me it seems like England should not be part of the EU because all the EU seems to do is give money to countries that can’t like manage their own money. Maybe that’s really wrong, my teacher didn’t explain real well.

Like I just think that a country should take care of itself and if it wants to help another country it should, but like here we have so many problems but no one ever wants to help us, just criticize us, but they all get mad if we criticize them and they want our money. We have too many of our own problems to take care of first.

I think England should get out of the EU and have good relationships with the countries it wants to, but if it doesn’t want to give money to Greece or whatever, it shouldn’t feel like it has to.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 11:07 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Lucy G View Post
Under the current arrangement negotiated by the PM, I gather Northern Ireland will remain part of the EU whilst we won't? That seems highly strange.
The current deal on the table essentially offers to keep things roughly status quo until a we iron out the details: the only exception is tha, since we would no longer be an EU member state, we won't have MEPs in the European Parliament discussing EU regulations: that's why so many people don't like the deal, it means we follow many EU regulations but no longer have the power to negotiate or draft them.
The issue with Northern Ireland is that there are only 3 viable options with it: either Northern Ireland leaves the Good Friday agreement and sets up a hard border with the Republic, including border stops and losing the right to be considered Irish citizens; Ireland remains under the Good Friday Agreement (and so technically part of the EU) but sets up a metaphorical 'border in the Irish Sea' where there are instead border checks and customs at ports and airports in Great Britain when traveling from Ireland or, the final option, the entire UK stays in the EU and no longer has to pick between ending the Good Friday Agreement and essentially giving up Northern Ireland. However, Brexiteers don't wanna pick any of the 3 options and so have to negotiate some sort of option that satisfies everyone.

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We talked about it in school and I guess I donít get it, but like to me it seems like England should not be part of the EU because all the EU seems to do is give money to countries that canít like manage their own money. Maybe thatís really wrong, my teacher didnít explain real well.

Like I just think that a country should take care of itself and if it wants to help another country it should, but like here we have so many problems but no one ever wants to help us, just criticize us, but they all get mad if we criticize them and they want our money. We have too many of our own problems to take care of first.

I think England should get out of the EU and have good relationships with the countries it wants to, but if it doesnít want to give money to Greece or whatever, it shouldnít feel like it has to.
Essentially, since the EU was founded as an economic union, member states pay in money to the centralised EU parliament in Brussels that then uses that money to maintain the union. In doing so, it may give out large loans to member states that are in major debt and need that money not to collapse (like Greece). If Greece fully collapses, it causes economic issues for the rest of the EU as the EU maintains itself through internal trade and economic stability. However, some do indeed argue that it's unfair for powerful, successful economies like the UK, Germany and France to have their money go to keeping a weaker economy (like Italy and Greece) afloat.

Last edited by ShineintheDark; January 12th, 2019 at 11:13 AM.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 11:14 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
Essentially, since the EU was founded as an economic union, member states pay in money to the centralised EU parliament in Brussels that then uses that money to maintain the union. In doing so, it may give out large loans to member states that are in major debt and need that money not to collapse (like Greece). If Greece fully collapses, it causes economic issues for the rest of the EU as the EU maintains itself through internal trade and economic stability. However, some do indeed argue that it's unfair for powerful, successful economies like the UK, Germany and France to have their money go to keeping a weaker economy (like Italy and Greece) afloat.
So what stops like Greece from not fixing the problem and just taking the money? Can I join the EU because Iím in a financial crisis as well
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Old January 12th, 2019, 11:19 AM   #13
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So what stops like Greece from not fixing the problem and just taking the money? Can I join the EU because Iím in a financial crisis as well
It's not an endless stream of money, it's loan after loan. If the economy levels out again, the EU will stop giving them loans. Besides, since they're loans and not grants, Greece gets more and more in debt with the EU with every consecutive loan and will have to pay it all back again so it's not it their interest to sit back and accept the money.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 11:24 AM   #14
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It's not an endless stream of money, it's loan after loan. If the economy levels out again, the EU will stop giving them loans. Besides, since they're loans and not grants, Greece gets more and more in debt with the EU with every consecutive loan and will have to pay it all back again so it's not it their interest to sit back and accept the money.
Okay I am not good at history but I think the US like loaned a lot of money to countries, especially after world war 2 and never got any back. I mean we recovered but our economy was good. To me if the country isnít doing that great with money, a loan is really risky. Of course maybe I donít understand. My friends are Greek and they say Greece isnít in trouble. They have a like vacation place there and go twice a year it seems like. I just donít get it.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 11:29 AM   #15
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Okay I am not good at history but I think the US like loaned a lot of money to countries, especially after world war 2 and never got any back. I mean we recovered but our economy was good. To me if the country isnít doing that great with money, a loan is really risky. Of course maybe I donít understand. My friends are Greek and they say Greece isnít in trouble. They have a like vacation place there and go twice a year it seems like. I just donít get it.
The US did loan a lot of money to countries after WW2 (the Marshall Plan) and did make a lot, if not all, back through increased trade with Europe. A considerable chunk of the US' international trade, even to this day, is from the EU and other European countries - including Eastern European countries like Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria etc that weren't even given loans in the first place.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 08:17 PM   #16
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The US did loan a lot of money to countries after WW2 (the Marshall Plan) and did make a lot, if not all, back through increased trade with Europe. A considerable chunk of the US' international trade, even to this day, is from the EU and other European countries - including Eastern European countries like Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria etc that weren't even given loans in the first place.
There's a huge difference between making money back through trade and have a loan repaid. The former is money earned; the later is money which was promised to be returned.
And the trade with the US benefited the countries they lent money to as well.
Actually, the US has very little trade with Latvia, Estonia and Bulgaria and to the extent it does, it benefits those countries far more than it benefits the US.

If history is any indication, Greece doesn't have to worry about its loans. After a period of time, the lending countries generally forgive the loans. Perhaps with the EU it would be different, but I wouldn't count on it.


The question of why Brexit happened is really complicated and it had been discussed for awhile. But from what I understand, the issue which pushed a lot of the public to vote for it was fear about migration and immigration. Anyone in the EU may travel to any other country in the EU. Many people from poorer countries, especially former Eastern Europe countries were flocking to England and people were afraid they would be a drain on social services.
This was in addition to the EU determining how many immigrants would be allowed to enter. The Brexit vote took place as many people were fleeing Arab and African countries and the English were afraid they'd have to take on too much of a burden. There are those who feel the vote reflected a certain racist element amongst the English, though many saw it more as fear.

There is one issue I'm confused about: I know it's called "BR"exit, but a friend of mine from Wales said the vote was only for England to leave the EU, not Scotland and Wales. This thread talks about Northern Ireland, which isn't part of GB, it's part of the UK. Was the vote for all of GB, or just England?

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Old January 12th, 2019, 08:37 PM   #17
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There is one issue I'm confused about: I know it's called "BR"exit, but a friend of mine from Wales said the vote was only for England to leave the EU, not Scotland and Wales. This thread talks about Northern Ireland, which isn't part of GB, it's part of the UK. Was the vote for all of GB, or just England?
the vote was over the whole of the united kingdom of england, Scotland, wales and northern Ireland. some folks in Scotland are miffed about the fact that most of Scotland voted stay but because they arn't indipendant there leaving anyway. as far as i know, no such folks exist in wales.

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The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. - H. P. Lovecraft
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Old January 12th, 2019, 08:42 PM   #18
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the vote was over the whole of the united kingdom of england, Scotland, wales and northern Ireland. some folks in Scotland are miffed about the fact that most of Scotland voted stay but because they arn't indipendant there leaving anyway. as far as i know, no such folks exist in wales.
Thank you for the clarification. It makes more sense now. It also makes sense that the Scottish wanted to stay, as they deal with far less of the migration and immigration issues.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 08:55 PM   #19
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Thank you for the clarification. It makes more sense now. It also makes sense that the Scottish wanted to stay, as they deal with far less of the migration and immigration issues.
Immigration policy is uniform throughout the UK and in fact Scotland and Northern Ireland (the 2 of the 4 British countries that voted to remain) contain some of the most diverse areas of the UK (albeit not nearly as much as London which also strongly voted to remain). The general theme behind reasons to leave the EU were around 'British sovereignty' so it's no surprise that the two countries with the largest anti-British sentiment reject this 'British control'-centred reasoning behind the vote. The issue was that the general public was given the choice around a multitude of very complex, inter-connected issues that it wouldn't be fully informed about until after they had voted. Would we still have voted to leave? I don't know and doubt it matters now.

When it comes to the immigration aspect, Britain actually already opted out of a lot of it, considering we still have border stops at every port of entry to the UK, thereby meaning we aren't formally part of the 'Schengen Zone' (the policy of free movement around the EU) and also rejected the EU directive allowing the UK to deport EU nationals who remain unemployed after 6 months. The public also remained unaware that Britain holds one of the highest numbers of population living in the EU, with many elderly and young workers moving to Spain in particular for its different climate and diversity of work options. Issues surrounding immigration were a lot more complex than the 'foreigners are taking our jobs' narrative that was prominent during the campaigning period.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 09:28 PM   #20
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Immigration policy is uniform throughout the UK and in fact Scotland and Northern Ireland (the 2 of the 4 British countries that voted to remain) contain some of the most diverse areas of the UK (albeit not nearly as much as London which also strongly voted to remain). The general theme behind reasons to leave the EU were around 'British sovereignty' so it's no surprise that the two countries with the largest anti-British sentiment reject this 'British control'-centred reasoning behind the vote. The issue was that the general public was given the choice around a multitude of very complex, inter-connected issues that it wouldn't be fully informed about until after they had voted. Would we still have voted to leave? I don't know and doubt it matters now.

When it comes to the immigration aspect, Britain actually already opted out of a lot of it, considering we still have border stops at every port of entry to the UK, thereby meaning we aren't formally part of the 'Schengen Zone' (the policy of free movement around the EU) and also rejected the EU directive allowing the UK to deport EU nationals who remain unemployed after 6 months. The public also remained unaware that Britain holds one of the highest numbers of population living in the EU, with many elderly and young workers moving to Spain in particular for its different climate and diversity of work options. Issues surrounding immigration were a lot more complex than the 'foreigners are taking our jobs' narrative that was prominent during the campaigning period.

While Scotland and Northern Ireland may be diverse, the influx of African and Arab immigrants would affect them less than those in England. It's not surprising that areas with more diversity were less afraid of more immigrants.

"Issues surrounding immigration were a lot more complex than the 'foreigners are taking our jobs' narrative that was prominent during the campaigning period."

They certainly were, but I answered the question asked, which was "...how we manged to get ourselves into this awful mess."
From the analysis of the voting I read, many voters were moved by fear of foreigners taking their jobs and the burden to social services caused by immigrants and migrants. That the real issues were far more complex than that doesn't address the question of why the British voted to exit. That 'narrative' was effective in getting people to vote for the separation.
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