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Old February 11th, 2019, 04:33 AM   #21
NoLimitGuy
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

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Hitler and the whole Nazi-bunch wasn't right in anyways. And Nazis were in no way scientifically. Quite the contrary is the case.

But what they did was to rationalize mass murder and raise the suffering of innocent and, of course, too the forcibly guilty people to a higher level in case of their experiments.

And that is simply inhumane and a totally crime. I'm a total, almost militant, opponent of the death penalty. Rationality has nothing to do with it.


The only thing that counts is sticking strict to morality, even if that doesn't seem fair to many folks in case of victims, etc. And even if it means in practice that mass murderers and other scum will be kept in prison for the rest of their lives at the expense of the state, so that they no longer are a threat to society.

That's what society has to endure.
If you refuse to see the facts because they are "dirty", that's your problem. Nazis achieved a lot in medicine, surgery, tehnological advancement and psychology. Many of researches were later taken to the US military, for secret CIA programs like MK-Ultra. Yes, they made a lot of sick and damaged people, but that was the only way to really prove something and research. And so did CIA, Russian KGB... And you know why? Because world leaders and many scientists know that the progress can only be seen through sacrifice.

The only thing that matters is rationality. Only through rationality one can make the right decisions, only through rationality there can be justice and fairness. Living by morals makes you a weak, attached imbecile who always cares about the others and does only what is " good" for everyone rather to do what is right. All great researches and achievments were made because those scientists were cold-blooded, determined and rational. They could see more further and more clearer. For example, Marie Currie. She and her husband sacrifised their lifes for science and because of that millions of people are saved because of X-ray tehnology. And they are just a droplet in water from all the other great scientists who sacrifised something because they believed in something greater...
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Old February 11th, 2019, 04:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

Sacrificing yourself is something completely different than sacrificing someone else "for the future good of mankind".

Anyway, this gets completely offtopic.
Back to the pros and cons of the death penalty, I would say.

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Old February 11th, 2019, 06:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

Why execute someone, when you can just enslave them for the rest of their life? I mean if the person is innocent, pay the wages out for slaving and pay reparations. If the person is not innocent, tough luck, most of your rights just got revoked. I would use slaves mostly in construction projects, agriculture and clearing rubble and making space for said construction projects.

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Old February 11th, 2019, 09:18 AM   #24
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

Slavery is also not an option. It shouldn't even be mentioned here.

@NoLimitGuy - And as for the scientific advances made during the Nazi era, sure such progress existed. Opportunists like Werner von Braun benefited from the Nazis.

But I hadn't this kind of technical and scientific progress in my mind. I spoke more about those racial doctrines brought up by the Nazis (even if they just adapted such pseudoscientific flat earthly theories rather from the 19th century).

So who cares about technical progress during the Nazi reign when the topic is about the death of humans? Nazis shouldn't be mentioned in this discussion unless as a deterrent, historical example in case of totally inhuman and criminal politics. But even that is imo almost offtopic.





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Old February 11th, 2019, 09:28 AM   #25
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Slavery is also not an option. It shouldn't even be mentioned here.

@NoLimitGuy - And as for the scientific advances made during the Nazi era, sure such progress existed. Opportunists like Werner von Braun benefited from the Nazis.

But I hadn't this kind of technical and scientific progress in my mind. I spoke more about those racial doctrines brought up by the Nazis (even if they just adapted such pseudoscientific flat earthly theories rather from the 19th century).

So who cares about technical progress during the Nazi reign when the topic is about the death of humans? Nazis shouldn't be mentioned in this discussion unless as a deterrent, historical example in case of totally inhuman and criminal politics. But even that is imo almost offtopic.
Humans are irrelevant. We have too many, we don't need everyone. I got it, you are a moralist and humanist. Further discussion is pointless since we both are completely different persons with completely different views...
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Old February 11th, 2019, 09:31 AM   #26
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Sacrificing yourself is something completely different than sacrificing someone else "for the future good of mankind".

Anyway, this gets completely offtopic.
Back to the pros and cons of the death penalty, I would say.
Yes it's different. A one genius died for the sake of the mankid is a greater loss than hundreds sacrifised for millions by that one genius. But yes, further discussion is pointless. Better not post such opinions on a site where humanists and moralists live
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Old February 11th, 2019, 09:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

Well recognized mate.





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Old February 11th, 2019, 09:44 AM   #28
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Why execute someone, when you can just enslave them for the rest of their life? I mean if the person is innocent, pay the wages out for slaving and pay reparations. If the person is not innocent, tough luck, most of your rights just got revoked. I would use slaves mostly in construction projects, agriculture and clearing rubble and making space for said construction projects.
Funnily enough you just exactly described Stalinist gulags. Kind of funny, intentional or not, that a person from the Eastern Bloc proposes gulag labour.
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Old February 11th, 2019, 09:50 AM   #29
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Pros: People proven bad are no longer with us

Cons: Expensive, possibility of killing an innocent person, doesn't make us any different from murderers, I'd rather have a killer live with what he did
Sometimes killers are proud of their "achievements"
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Old February 11th, 2019, 10:55 AM   #30
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

The only pro is that it stops repeat offenders.
Lots of cons.
It isn't a deterrent for crimes of passion or terrorists who want to be martyrs so not sure how many people it puts off anyway.
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Old February 11th, 2019, 12:02 PM   #31
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

Thought experiment: would the death penalty be more of a deterrent if it were carried out swiftly and publicly, like it was in centuries past? One of the problems with the death penalty as "deterrent" is that the actual executions often happen years later; inmates languish on death row for decades dealing with appeals and what not. People may have even forgotten about a criminal when their execution is finally scheduled.

If criminals were executed much sooner after the sentence and the executions happened in town squares with guillotines, would it be a deterrent then (not arguing that it's feasible to do it this way, simply a hypothetical)? Or would even that kind of spectacle still not prevent people from committing crimes?

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Old February 11th, 2019, 12:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

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I don't care about humane ways.. All I care about is the future and greater good... If you commited a crime, you had a reasons for that, but you must deal with consequences. Some criminals are crazy and they will be in prison for ever or hospitilazed on trankvilizators. I say, use them as a research material. They were useless before they made their crime, they are useless after sp why don't bring a actual use for the future? Small sacrifice to save millions... And the crime rates would really drop if this kind of punishment would emerge, because...It's a real punishment...
If you care about the future and greater good you would be for a system that has a high success of keeping people out of jail after they served their sentence.

You can't experiment on people against their will, that is a major human rights violation. Qualify as cruel and unusual punishment as well as torture.

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Nazis made a scientifical progress and Hitler was right in some ways. I don't see world in the colors of "good" and "evil"... All I see is the right thing to doo and possibilities for the brighter future and yes, some of those posibilities are way out of your limited moral minds...
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Why execute someone, when you can just enslave them for the rest of their life? I mean if the person is innocent, pay the wages out for slaving and pay reparations. If the person is not innocent, tough luck, most of your rights just got revoked. I would use slaves mostly in construction projects, agriculture and clearing rubble and making space for said construction projects.
Justifying the Nazis and condoning slavery what the fuck is wrong with you people?

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Thought experiment: would the death penalty be more of a deterrent if it were carried out swiftly and publicly, like it was in centuries past? One of the problems with the death penalty as "deterrent" is that the actual executions often happen years later; inmates languish on death row for decades dealing with appeals and what not. People may have even forgotten about a criminal when their execution is finally scheduled.

If criminals were executed much sooner after the sentence and the executions happened in town squares with guillotines, would it be a deterrent then (not arguing that it's feasible to do it this way, simply a hypothetical)? Or would even that kind of spectacle still not prevent people from committing crimes?
You know a discussion as gone badly when the guy proposing public executions is one of the more reasonable of the gang.

I remember when ISIS was doing public executions and posting the videos on YouTube and everyone was outrage by it and it started a series of western state sponsored terrorist attacks in Syria and Iraq.

You also can't do it sooner because of the larger investigation and the appeal process and everything else to make sure they got the right person.

The death penalty as never worked as a deterrent and never will, it just doesn't work. When someone is about to commit a crime, lets say like murder, they either don't care about the consequences, don't think about it, or don't think they will be caught. That's also why using jail as punishment also doesn't work as a deterrent either. You still have punish the crime but they are still human and should be treated as such and be able to return or pursue a normal life after they served their sentence.

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Old February 11th, 2019, 12:45 PM   #33
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Im not seriously proposing it Just trying to rule out any argument for the death penalty being a deterrent. I think we can acknowledge that the function of the death penalty is not to deter crime, it’s to punish and perhaps to satisfy a desire for blood/revenge.

Since life in prison is an adequate, less barbaric, and less expensive punishment, I don’t see why the death penalty is necessary.

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Old February 11th, 2019, 06:27 PM   #34
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Justifying the Nazis and condoning slavery what the fuck is wrong with you people?
Better put the prisoners to good work than to sit in cells with thumbs up their asses or possibly kill an innocent. Minning, construction, agriculture, production in factories. For most of those things you can learn useful crafts. So if you were enslaved for a timed sentence, not life, you can put those skills to good use. Have the state produce a paper for you depending what you did and give your qualifications. For those enslaved for life, tough luck... Still, they should have a 10 hour workday 5-6 days a week. In case a person is found innocent, pay out the daily wages he laboured and pay reparations for years imprisoned.

Besides, maintaining prison complexes costs, slaves can be used to spend less on the cost, maybe turn a profit and give back to society. Keep in mind I am not supporting a slave economy, but in America's case, if it's 1% of prison population did something, it could end good, and like I said, teaching them crafts to do later while enslaved will help when they serve their sentence and earn their freedom.

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Funnily enough you just exactly described Stalinist gulags. Kind of funny, intentional or not, that a person from the Eastern Bloc proposes gulag labour.
Well, you had low violent crime rates then, plus, in my proposed system, if a person is proven innocent, they get their wages and reparations. Also it is a lot easier to free an enslaved person proven innocent than a dead one.
Still, I do not support labor camps for thought crime, just for criminal offences and for small sentence crimes, give incentives to either sit in a cell with a thumb up your bum or do slave labour for a shorter sentence and pick up a craft that will serve you in the free world.

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Old February 11th, 2019, 10:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

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Better put the prisoners to good work than to sit in cells with thumbs up their asses or possibly kill an innocent. Minning, construction, agriculture, production in factories. For most of those things you can learn useful crafts. So if you were enslaved for a timed sentence, not life, you can put those skills to good use. Have the state produce a paper for you depending what you did and give your qualifications. For those enslaved for life, tough luck... Still, they should have a 10 hour workday 5-6 days a week. In case a person is found innocent, pay out the daily wages he laboured and pay reparations for years imprisoned.

Besides, maintaining prison complexes costs, slaves can be used to spend less on the cost, maybe turn a profit and give back to society. Keep in mind I am not supporting a slave economy, but in America's case, if it's 1% of prison population did something, it could end good, and like I said, teaching them crafts to do later while enslaved will help when they serve their sentence and earn their freedom.
That would be a massive human right violation, even Israel is like ''that's a little excessive''. I'm just kidding, in fact they just stole the idea.

Prisons aren't suppose to make a profit, if you try to make a profit with prisons that's how you end up like the US. Plus the cost of training them, transporting them to work, the extra security so inmates don't take advantage of the situation to get away, you also would have to major safety issues, some of those jobs are can be dangerous you'd probably need insurance, you would be liable if someone gets hurt or killed. Starting to be expensive.

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Old February 12th, 2019, 06:37 AM   #36
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Default Re: Death Penalty: Pros and Cons

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That would be a massive human right violation, even Israel is like ''that's a little excessive''. I'm just kidding, in fact they just stole the idea.

Prisons aren't suppose to make a profit, if you try to make a profit with prisons that's how you end up like the US. Plus the cost of training them, transporting them to work, the extra security so inmates don't take advantage of the situation to get away, you also would have to major safety issues, some of those jobs are can be dangerous you'd probably need insurance, you would be liable if someone gets hurt or killed. Starting to be expensive.
Not really. Sentence is x years of labor. Nothing violating your rights about it. Besides, nobody forced anyone to do crime. On the plus side, an innocent slave is far easier to free and re-integrate into society than a dead innocent prisoner.

Simple solution for not running away. Shock or explosive collars. You get too far from the complex? Bzzzt or boom. That way a small amount of guards would be needed. Technology needed for those collars is not exactly high tech, so it has no real chances of randomly failing.
Also keep in mind most of them will be doing one the same work for years, to train them for 1-2 months is a really small investment considering how much they will spend doing some work.
Insurance is the least of the cost problems because insurance by bulk. It's cheaper to insure a thousand prisoners on a per prisoner cost than one.

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Old February 12th, 2019, 09:14 AM   #37
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Why execute someone, when you can just enslave them for the rest of their life? I mean if the person is innocent, pay the wages out for slaving and pay reparations. If the person is not innocent, tough luck, most of your rights just got revoked. I would use slaves mostly in construction projects, agriculture and clearing rubble and making space for said construction projects.
And by doing that you would make thousands of more people jobless. And by doing that you would also give reason to enslave more people since it becomes profitable.
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Old February 12th, 2019, 11:56 AM   #38
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And by doing that you would make thousands of more people jobless. And by doing that you would also give reason to enslave more people since it becomes profitable.
I doubt it would be as profitable to justify mass enslaving. I mean American slavery became massive when a contraption was built which revolutionized the cotton picking process, before it was too slow to justify so many slaves.

The workforce could just specialize in other types of labour, not in jobs slaves would have.

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Old February 12th, 2019, 12:17 PM   #39
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I doubt it would be as profitable to justify mass enslaving. I mean American slavery became massive when a contraption was built which revolutionized the cotton picking process, before it was too slow to justify so many slaves.

The workforce could just specialize in other types of labour, not in jobs slaves would have.
With slave labor government has incentive to enslave as many as possible. This leads automatically to situation where normal companies like construction companies suffer. Your system anyway has been implemented numerous times like Gulags in Russia or like in USA where prisons are private business.

How to get more prisoners then. Since murder is actually very rare to happen. Toughening laws and lengthening sentences are typical ways Just like it has been done in usa. Also wrong opinions land you into prison for most of world like in EU or Canada.

All in all most states have enslaved their population some way. Most civilized form is taxation and private money.
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Old February 12th, 2019, 12:46 PM   #40
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Not really. Sentence is x years of labor. Nothing violating your rights about it. Besides, nobody forced anyone to do crime. On the plus side, an innocent slave is far easier to free and re-integrate into society than a dead innocent prisoner.

Simple solution for not running away. Shock or explosive collars. You get too far from the complex? Bzzzt or boom. That way a small amount of guards would be needed. Technology needed for those collars is not exactly high tech, so it has no real chances of randomly failing.
Also keep in mind most of them will be doing one the same work for years, to train them for 1-2 months is a really small investment considering how much they will spend doing some work.
Insurance is the least of the cost problems because insurance by bulk. It's cheaper to insure a thousand prisoners on a per prisoner cost than one.
You can't force someone to work against their will as slave its a human right violation, I'm guessing so is the explosive collar, in the cruel and unusual punishment category. The shock collar is not that great either. Plus you could hurt someone by making explosive collar it would also kill inmates.

You make it sound like the only two options are killing them or enslave them, its not rehabilitation is a solution that is proven to work lets go with that.

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