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Old January 10th, 2019, 04:30 PM   #1
Stronk Serb
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Default Moral decline?

Okay, so this is not a homophobic, or ant-LGBTQWERTY rant, just hear me out.

So a few months ago here in my town in Serbia, a 15 year old girl was sexually assaulted in a full tram. That's right. It was full. She called for help, yet no one did. No one even went to help her afterwards. She wasn't raped, thankfully, but still, shit like that leaves a scar. So what the hell is wrong with people? I see fights break out in Lidl over that dollar chicken, people fighting over a seat in public transport, throwing hissy fits over their usual parking place being taken, yet nobody has compassion? I mean I would've kicked the guy in the nuts and stomped him or something. He could've been her dad judging by his age.

Also not to mention the rise of promiscuity of both genders. I read a few articles of the IRS esentially filing reports against some girls for selling their nudes and not paying taxes (lmao). Have we sank that low? Also when guys brag how many women they slept with and pretty much exposing whatever went on in the bedroom. I mean I heard of cases here of bad breakups and the nudes of the girl going viral in the environment.

How did this happen and how do we fix it? Sure, we cannot exterminate that behaviour, but we can put it under a tolerable minimum.

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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: Moral decline?

what's to fix?
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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:21 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by deej2005 View Post
what's to fix?
Lack of compassion, lack of collective consciousness, lack of morals, lack of self-preservation...

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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Lack of compassion, lack of collective consciousness, lack of morals, lack of self-preservation...
how can someone both lack compassion and self-preservation?
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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Not "whats to fix" as above. I agree "how to fix". There
is the same here in the USA. Murders everyday-Rapes
Moral Decline-Crime-People seem to b less friendly and
not willing to go out of their way to help others in need.
Im sorry to say a lot people in my age group also r more
into themselves than others. There has been a less belief
in God not only to say in government but also in religion
itself. I believe in God and find good in Him. This is my
belief. If u don't believe I have nothing against u. I wont
say this is the main reason y we have all of these probs.
I wont say more on religion cause I don't want to b dissed
here. Im not here to discuss it but IDK how to fix things. I
take it that it is where life today is evolving and the future
is bleak if things continue as they r.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:38 PM   #6
Stronk Serb
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deej2005 View Post
how can someone both lack compassion and self-preservation?
If you do not care for yourself, how can you be expected to care for others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ska8er View Post
Not "whats to fix" as above. I agree "how to fix". There
is the same here in the USA. Murders everyday-Rapes
Moral Decline-Crime-People seem to b less friendly and
not willing to go out of their way to help others in need.
Im sorry to say a lot people in my age group also r more
into themselves than others. There has been a less belief
in God not only to say in government but also in religion
itself. I believe in God and find good in Him. This is my
belief. If u don't believe I have nothing against u. I wont
say this is the main reason y we have all of these probs.
I wont say more on religion cause I don't want to b dissed
here. Im not here to discuss it but IDK how to fix things. I
take it that it is where life today is evolving and the future
is bleak if things continue as they r.
Belief in God is not what I am hinting at, funnily enough, my country was more moral-oriented while under a godless communist dictatorship.

I guess it has something to do with the media? As in we are constantly served the worst news first. X murdered Y, this celebrity is accused of that, through music too?

I mean in communist times here you could find headlines like: "X factory beaten their exports from last year", "Y thing has improved by a factor of N", "E factory hired more people", "Our doctors are improving, international study says", "students win math olympics". Also there was one that was in stark contrast to what is happening today. The Turkish ambassador to (at that time) Yugoslavia was assasinated by Kurdish separatists in the 70-ies I think, in the middle of the street. What happened? Citizens themselves apprehended the killer and the police actually had to protect the assasin from the mob of people who formed.

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Old January 10th, 2019, 08:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
If you do not care for yourself, how can you be expected to care for others?



Belief in God is not what I am hinting at, funnily enough, my country was more moral-oriented while under a godless communist dictatorship.

I guess it has something to do with the media? As in we are constantly served the worst news first. X murdered Y, this celebrity is accused of that, through music too?

I mean in communist times here you could find headlines like: "X factory beaten their exports from last year", "Y thing has improved by a factor of N", "E factory hired more people", "Our doctors are improving, international study says", "students win math olympics". Also there was one that was in stark contrast to what is happening today. The Turkish ambassador to (at that time) Yugoslavia was assasinated by Kurdish separatists in the 70-ies I think, in the middle of the street. What happened? Citizens themselves apprehended the killer and the police actually had to protect the assasin from the mob of people who formed.
I agree with the media bit. There is too much news out there
that we get in a split second and too much dissecting it til it is
beaten into the ground.
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Old January 10th, 2019, 09:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
If you do not care for yourself, how can you be expected to care for others?



Belief in God is not what I am hinting at, funnily enough, my country was more moral-oriented while under a godless communist dictatorship.
Morality as nothing to do with religion or how religious someone might be, just look at the Catholics.

As for the godless communist dictatorship thing, thats just not true like in any dictatorship, its was not godless, God was simply replaced by the dictator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
I guess it has something to do with the media? As in we are constantly served the worst news first. X murdered Y, this celebrity is accused of that, through music too?

I mean in communist times here you could find headlines like: "X factory beaten their exports from last year", "Y thing has improved by a factor of N", "E factory hired more people", "Our doctors are improving, international study says", "students win math olympics". Also there was one that was in stark contrast to what is happening today. The Turkish ambassador to (at that time) Yugoslavia was assasinated by Kurdish separatists in the 70-ies I think, in the middle of the street. What happened? Citizens themselves apprehended the killer and the police actually had to protect the assasin from the mob of people who formed.
The media sugarcoating or censoring the news just so people don't see how bad things really are. First with the many options of social media, and independent media people are gonna ear about it anyway, and secondly its with sugarcoating and censoring the bad news thats how things like Brexit and Trump happened. They were other factors but thats a big one.

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Old January 10th, 2019, 09:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Moral decline?

You can't fix such stuff. People have always been like that.

There has never been a time were people ever been morally stable or weren't promiscuous and such. That's kind of our nature. Some are more, some are less affected from it.

You can force them living on the "right path" by pressuring them in some ways, but that's all. And this always is just a bigot solution.


If you don't want people being indifferent and look away, if they witness a situation that makes them uncomfortable or even scary; if you want them to intervene instead, being attentive and not staring dumbly elsewhere, you must take the initiative and involve the people surround. Maybe even with an authoritarian demeanor.

If you want to sensitize them in general, you have to change society completely. This means that to involve every single citizen from an early age on into social activities within society.


People have to feel responsible. But people also have to realize that social values ​​are valued much higher than if companies make profits. And since companies are part of society, people must see that companies are taken social responsibilities for society.

And then the trick has to be to bring individuality and claims of society on an individual in a balance. And if possible without noticeable pressure.

Only then did we begin to create the conditions for a larger community based on moral and humane principles.


Personally, I think it is not feasible. Because we humans are egoists.


As long as economic growth and related services are higher valued than, for example, to care for elderly folks, etc., you will encounter situations everywhere and every day as you described them in your first post.

If you want to change that, you have to take the first step. Because the others will not move until some folks following you.





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Old January 10th, 2019, 11:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Focusing on the sexual aspects of it, I do think rape, prostitution, and other sorts of sexual immorality are becoming more common and accepted due to the increasingly lax standard that sex is given in society. When you insist that sex has no meaning and is simply a means of pleasure, you in-effect invite people to abuse it. It seems like driving is treated with more respect and caution than sex is nowadays. Not wanting to sound totally prudish, but we should be teaching our girls and our guys that sex is more that just casual physical pleasure.

Additionally, the rise of moral relativism (the belief that all viewpoints are moral and should be accepted) and nihilism (rejection of morality and higher meaning) is creating a culture where people are either too afraid to claim any true morality as not too offend, or simply don't believe there is any true morality. As that philosophy becomes more common immoral things are slowly becoming "moral" in the eyes of society. I'm not intending to spark any huge debate here (I'm in college, I don't have that sorta time anymore) but let's take transgenderism. We have a person who believes that their "gender" does not equate to their biological sex. They believe that the only solution to that is to mutilate their body to imitate that of their believed gender. In a moral relativist view, we cannot judge the other person so we must indulge their fantasy. Of course some might say there is evidence towards the idea that biological and mental genders don't match up (sidenote: these same people deny mental differences when it comes to gender equality, again moral relativism at work), so lets discuss a bit more extreme, yet slowly and increasingly accepted topic, pedophilia. Y'all moral relativists getting a little squirmy aren't ya? "Thou shalt not judge" may sound like a good wordview when it comes to moral issues that won't impact you, but not so much when giving the okay to grown adults to have sexual relationships with your siblings or even children.
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Old January 11th, 2019, 12:23 AM   #11
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Default

honestly this whole thread is meaningless without data to support anything you say,

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If you do not care for yourself, how can you be expected to care for others?
hahahahahaha very easily

Posts merged. Use the edit button next time. Keep discussions civil and productive, please. ~Mars

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Old January 11th, 2019, 01:11 AM   #12
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Oh god, more right wing garbage from VT's Eastern European bloc
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Old January 11th, 2019, 01:34 AM   #13
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Focusing on the sexual aspects of it, I do think rape, prostitution, and other sorts of sexual immorality are becoming more common and accepted due to the increasingly lax standard that sex is given in society. When you insist that sex has no meaning and is simply a means of pleasure, you in-effect invite people to abuse it. It seems like driving is treated with more respect and caution than sex is nowadays. Not wanting to sound totally prudish, but we should be teaching our girls and our guys that sex is more that just casual physical pleasure.

Additionally, the rise of moral relativism (the belief that all viewpoints are moral and should be accepted) and nihilism (rejection of morality and higher meaning) is creating a culture where people are either too afraid to claim any true morality as not too offend, or simply don't believe there is any true morality. As that philosophy becomes more common immoral things are slowly becoming "moral" in the eyes of society. I'm not intending to spark any huge debate here (I'm in college, I don't have that sorta time anymore) but let's take transgenderism. We have a person who believes that their "gender" does not equate to their biological sex. They believe that the only solution to that is to mutilate their body to imitate that of their believed gender. In a moral relativist view, we cannot judge the other person so we must indulge their fantasy. Of course some might say there is evidence towards the idea that biological and mental genders don't match up (sidenote: these same people deny mental differences when it comes to gender equality, again moral relativism at work), so lets discuss a bit more extreme, yet slowly and increasingly accepted topic, pedophilia. Y'all moral relativists getting a little squirmy aren't ya? "Thou shalt not judge" may sound like a good wordview when it comes to moral issues that won't impact you, but not so much when giving the okay to grown adults to have sexual relationships with your siblings or even children.
Sex is a beautiful, perfectly natural thing, nothing wrong with it as long as all participants consent to it. What's immoral with 2 or more consensual adults enjoying each other's body? Same thing with transgender what's wrong or immoral with someone wanting to be who they really are? You are talking about sex like if every night every night everyone is having a massive free for all orgy where anything goes. That's not the case. I agree that it is important to teach kids that they are possible consequences to sex like STDs or unwanted pregnancies but instead of demonising its important to educate people on contraception and birth control. They are gonna have sex anyway so might as well make sure they do it safely.

As for rape, prostitution and paedophilia, it as always been around and even someone accepted for most of history thanks to the condoning from religions and religious leaders. Its only recently that it gradually became less accepted by society until now that its completely unacceptable with sadly some exceptions.

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Old January 11th, 2019, 10:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
Okay, so this is not a homophobic, or ant-LGBTQWERTY rant, just hear me out.

So a few months ago here in my town in Serbia, a 15 year old girl was sexually assaulted in a full tram. That's right. It was full. She called for help, yet no one did. No one even went to help her afterwards. She wasn't raped, thankfully, but still, shit like that leaves a scar. So what the hell is wrong with people? I see fights break out in Lidl over that dollar chicken, people fighting over a seat in public transport, throwing hissy fits over their usual parking place being taken, yet nobody has compassion? I mean I would've kicked the guy in the nuts and stomped him or something. He could've been her dad judging by his age.

Also not to mention the rise of promiscuity of both genders. I read a few articles of the IRS esentially filing reports against some girls for selling their nudes and not paying taxes (lmao). Have we sank that low? Also when guys brag how many women they slept with and pretty much exposing whatever went on in the bedroom. I mean I heard of cases here of bad breakups and the nudes of the girl going viral in the environment.

How did this happen and how do we fix it? Sure, we cannot exterminate that behaviour, but we can put it under a tolerable minimum.

I can’t speak for Serbia, but I can say that the USA and UK have some cares about situations like these.


Partly in the USA there is a Good Samaritan law, and also in both the UK and USA there are criminal prosecutions procedures a girl can use to take an ex-boyfriend or even a ex-same sex loved for leaking intimate images online.



The “thots audit” movement for lack of a better term, is a somewhat separate issue entirely, it’s more loosely connected to economic inopportunity issues with regards to how Websites like YouTube and twitch were non-adult streaming sites, yet content creators push the terms of service line to get larger followings that help their monetization. Of course once the tactic of calling the USA’s IRS on female streamers for not reporting their income earned from viewership that tactic gained support by misogynistic groups and organizations.

So it’s a issue that’s been growing overtime and isn’t super connected to moral decline, as it is to a generation trying to pay their rent in the era of gentrification and student loan debts. Rich people like watching young girls online who knew?!

—-

In regards to public disregarding cries for help that doesn’t happen as much in the west, but it seems much more common in places like China or other socialist countries or scratch that, wherever their is local government corruption.


Good samaritans, run the risk of getting caught in scams, as there have been cases where the victim and assailants knew each other and staged the whole:

1. Fight
2. Sexual assault
3. Theft


And before you know it when authorities show up to interview, both the assailants and victim tell matching stories to authorities, and suddenly “good samaritian” is the one in cuffs being extorted $$$ or worse.


So you see from a different perspective there is a lot of variables that go into a society building up what appears to be callousness on the surface. Inside the minds of those on the trolley though in your story, their might indeed have been a lot of guilt for not helping.



——-
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
Focusing on the sexual aspects of it, I do think rape, prostitution, and other sorts of sexual immorality are becoming more common and accepted due to the increasingly lax standard that sex is given in society. When you insist that sex has no meaning and is simply a means of pleasure, you in-effect invite people to abuse it. It seems like driving is treated with more respect and caution than sex is nowadays. Not wanting to sound totally prudish, but we should be teaching our girls and our guys that sex is more that just casual physical pleasure.

Additionally, the rise of moral relativism (the belief that all viewpoints are moral and should be accepted) and nihilism (rejection of morality and higher meaning) is creating a culture where people are either too afraid to claim any true morality as not too offend, or simply don't believe there is any true morality. As that philosophy becomes more common immoral things are slowly becoming "moral" in the eyes of society. I'm not intending to spark any huge debate here (I'm in college, I don't have that sorta time anymore) but let's take transgenderism. We have a person who believes that their "gender" does not equate to their biological sex. They believe that the only solution to that is to mutilate their body to imitate that of their believed gender. In a moral relativist view, we cannot judge the other person so we must indulge their fantasy. Of course some might say there is evidence towards the idea that biological and mental genders don't match up (sidenote: these same people deny mental differences when it comes to gender equality, again moral relativism at work), so lets discuss a bit more extreme, yet slowly and increasingly accepted topic, pedophilia. Y'all moral relativists getting a little squirmy aren't ya? "Thou shalt not judge" may sound like a good wordview when it comes to moral issues that won't impact you, but not so much when giving the okay to grown adults to have sexual relationships with your siblings or even children.

I want to point out that you are mixing 3 different contexts though in referring to “these same people”.


The 3 contexts you hit which are not the same people are: Medical context, legal context, and political contexts.

Each are separately placing their own spin on why they view the above issues differently.

Also what defines “promiscuity is different” and it’s term has been misused in society to depict those who genuinely seek out romance but have been serially monogamous, to those who are as you say treating sex like a game.


The reason the hippie and free love movement started in the 60’s and 70’s, was a reaction to generations of Victorian sexual repression. While I agree some conservative values need to return, I caution that we cannot return to the irrational views of olden day. They have to be more realistic and fact based like Mattsmith suggested. Demonizing sexual education is not something we should return to for example.


Slut shaming just increases reactance rebellion which worsens the problem, OR it causes undo stress on a person and can quite frankly throw them into self-blame depression, and possibly suicide.

Bad parents and friends sometimes will slut shame an unbeknownst victim of rape as well, and to tie this to Stronk’s original post....the girl he described as being assaulted, in some old fashioned values about promiscuity might have also not reacted because “she was dressed provocatively and was asking for it”.


All I’m saying basically is don’t put girls/women into a judgmental catch-22.

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Old January 11th, 2019, 12:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Like previously stated, you can’t exactly force people to be moral or sensible. People are, and have always been, for the most part, more concerned with themselves and their money and jobs than helping others or making right decisions in crucial times. I myself have been subject to “minding my own business” too often, probably because the area I grew up in has raised me that way.

It starts with education in schools and at home. We have to teach and raise younger generations to be more compassionate and more selfless. Of course you will have those who are affected by outside media and perhaps, psychopathic tendencies of literally not being able to feel empathetic, however the majority will hopefully balance out those. I don’t think that has anything foundationally to do with religion or culture, though those do play a role in raising someone. For example, if you teach a child that Jesus would always help others when they were in trouble, regardless of what color they are or what they identify as, they would probably grow up more prone to help others who are in trouble. Similarly, if you teach a child that Jesus would stone a homosexual because liking the same gender is a sin, they would probably grow up more prone to be homophobic and violent.

It all comes from nurture, and insisting on the idea that lives matter over money or material.

At least, that’s what I think. Ultimately there is no immediate black and white solution to such a problem. Morals and such are always subjective, and we are skewed by our own morals and beliefs, to truly create an objective solution.

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Old January 11th, 2019, 07:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Moral decline?

There's a lot to tackle and discuss here so I'm initially going to tackle the prominent thread of the idea of 'sexual morality'. The first thing we have to realise is that the idea of sex as a recreational pleasurable activity is nothing new at all - only 2 mammals can have sex for pleasure and humans are one of them, therefore meaning that humans have been having sex cos it feels good since the dawn of our species. In an era where contraception has developed so far that we can promise a 99% chance of preventing pregnancy, it's no surprise that more and more people have sex for pleasure. If anything, the old traditional teachings of abstinence and sex within a marital setting were for a time where sex was always unprotected and therefore had an extremely high probability of ending in pregnancy. This meant that, by ensuring that congregations only slept with their spouses, all children conceived would grow up in a safe and secure environment. Now that people can have sex with almost certainty of not getting pregnant, that need for security is no longer as important.
In addition the naked body has been admired and immortalized in art forms for centuries. Whether it's Greco-Roman statues and vases, Renaissance paintings or now nudes, human beings have created visual sexual stimuli since the dawn of time. The only issue is that with the rise of the internet, what was once an intimate thing that was mostly assured to stay between you and a person can now easily become viral if a relationship sours. Revenge porn is the product of society being weirdly slow at understanding the ramifications of the internet age rather than major decline in societiy's sexual morality.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 01:22 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ShineintheDark View Post
There's a lot to tackle and discuss here so I'm initially going to tackle the prominent thread of the idea of 'sexual morality'. The first thing we have to realise is that the idea of sex as a recreational pleasurable activity is nothing new at all - only 2 mammals can have sex for pleasure and humans are one of them, therefore meaning that humans have been having sex cos it feels good since the dawn of our species. In an era where contraception has developed so far that we can promise a 99% chance of preventing pregnancy, it's no surprise that more and more people have sex for pleasure. If anything, the old traditional teachings of abstinence and sex within a marital setting were for a time where sex was always unprotected and therefore had an extremely high probability of ending in pregnancy. This meant that, by ensuring that congregations only slept with their spouses, all children conceived would grow up in a safe and secure environment. Now that people can have sex with almost certainty of not getting pregnant, that need for security is no longer as important.
In addition the naked body has been admired and immortalized in art forms for centuries. Whether it's Greco-Roman statues and vases, Renaissance paintings or now nudes, human beings have created visual sexual stimuli since the dawn of time. The only issue is that with the rise of the internet, what was once an intimate thing that was mostly assured to stay between you and a person can now easily become viral if a relationship sours. Revenge porn is the product of society being weirdly slow at understanding the ramifications of the internet age rather than major decline in societiy's sexual morality.
But sexual diseases are still a thing, and that still kills a lot of people both in the past and in the present and I would predict the future as well given the lastest medical data on antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria.
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Old January 12th, 2019, 01:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Haven't all the click-bait articles indicated that young people are having less sex than previous generations? If that's a concern, then maybe we don't need to worry so much.

As for the rest, the first is an example of the bystander effect, which is a pretty sad human reaction, but it happens. If we all have the attitude of "someone else will do something", then nothing happens. The bystander effect became more well-known because of the Kitty Genovese story in 1964 (though now later reports indicate it might not have been as bad as it was originally reported).

Either way, I've always said that human nature doesn't change. There are things that are different about the current era that may affect our behavior (there are more people than ever before, more technology--do those things make us more isolated and anonymous and thus the bystander effect is more likely to occur?), but fundamentally we're still the same as we always were. That's not necessarily reassuring. But I hesitate to characterize societal morals as "declining" when I've read so much history that shows we've always behaved badly and that people always judge the current era to be a time of decline in comparison to a rosy bygone past.

I spent a year suspended in air...my mind on the gap, my head on the stairs
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Old January 12th, 2019, 06:20 AM   #19
Oscar2005
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Default Re: Moral decline?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronk Serb View Post
I mean in communist times here you could find headlines like: "X factory beaten their exports from last year", "Y thing has improved by a factor of N", "E factory hired more people"
Who cares about a company exports?
People are more interested in which star dates which other rather than in economics...
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Old January 12th, 2019, 04:44 PM   #20
NoLimitGuy
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Default Re: Moral decline?

We can't fix what is in our nature. Power lust, eaher for flesh, degradation and primitivnes is who we are born with. And we live in society of faul, hungry, selfish, ignorant, low and primitive people... It was always that way and will always remain that way. Human kind is what it is and that's not so funny as it is pathetic and miserable...
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