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View Poll Results: What is your religion?
Agnosticism 138 13.40%
Atheism 311 30.19%
Buddhism 12 1.17%
Christianity (Please Specify) 409 39.71%
Hinduism 9 0.87%
Islam 33 3.20%
Judaism 17 1.65%
Wicca 17 1.65%
Other (Please Specify) 84 8.16%
Voters: 1030. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 11th, 2011, 08:21 AM   #2581
Apparitions
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Originally Posted by confusion View Post
Where did I insult him? I told him that he has no valid argument not that he belongs in a mental hospital! I attacked his argument not HIM! And telling him that he has no sense of humour is not the same as telling him that he belongs in a mental hospital. Imagine what would have happened if I said that to one of you atheists! You would have started again with the normal 'Because you Christians treat us badly and you think we're going to hell...bla bla bla' drama but it's alright for an atheist to say that....because, um, because, because...just because. Jus admit that what he said is offensive instead of taking his side when you know that he shouldn't have said that.
You didn't insult me, you just looked kind of stupid. Obviously I wasn't being serious when I implied that you weren't modest (if you had a brain/any kind of sense of humour you'd recognise this but then again you are a theist so I probably should have expected that). I said you were a mental because that's how you come across to me on this thread with your boring, rambling tl;dr posts. Again, stop being such a fucking crybaby, man the fuck up and stop being so serious. Instead of moaning, why not try and come up with some kind of witty retort?


Anyway, /argument. Let's get back to business. I read a very good post on religion on a football (soccer to you...) forum I go on and I think that it could provide some good shit to debate on here. Click here to read it (it's a bit long but well worth reading.)

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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:00 AM   #2582
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Here we are not talking about Muhammed. We're talking about God. And for your info, Krishna is the Supreme Being of the Hindus: their God. And yes the Mayans do believe in bush spirits and goblins, yes.
My bad about the bush spirits etc, however just because you don't want to believe things like those exist/existed doesn't mean they didn't and you're right and they're wrong because it seems 'primitive'. Also, you completely missed my point about Muhammed - Christians deny Muhammed as being a 'prophet', and they also deny the existence of more than one deity (as happens in Hinduism). If you're taking personal accounts of interactions with a God advocating Christianity, you're going to have to take personal accounts of people having interactions with Zeus, Shiva, Muhammed (who in the apparition advocates that Islam is true etc), and fucking Mayan bush spirits. You can't just ignore them because they contradict your faith.

That is essentially why you don't take personal eyewitness accounts as evidence. Because for every one that confirms your faith, there are many that contradict it.

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Personal accounts don't count....says you...it's not that I have blind faith and believe freakin everything like you're trying to imply...but for me PERSONAL accounts count as I consider myself to have a PERSONAL relationship with God.
As above. Taking personal accounts as evidence of anything essentially means you should be susceptible to believing anything - alien abductions, Zeus, trolls, and yes, Mayan bush gods.

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And by the way with love, trust and faith I forgot to add forgiveness. Try explaining that one for me. It's the most unnatural/illogical thing in the world but it's done, dear and it exists. It's not a feeling but a choice like trust.
Nope, it can be logical. You can assume that somebody's thought process goes along the lines of: holding a grudge against somebody for something they did for your lifetime is a strain on your lifestyle. It negatively affects the way you think and how you feel towards other people. To let the emotion go is to acknowledge that holding a grudge is irrational and will only negatively affect you.

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But there must have been a '0' start. And what was before that?
Where were you before you were born? It's hard to comprehend the concept of 'nothing' (or almost nothing) because it's not something the human mind is able to observe. However, the scientific evidence points to there being a singularity - things before that are currently impossible to predict and irrelevant regardless.

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And there's been no ground covered in proving he doesn't exist except from your 'NON-testimony' that doesn't mean 'jack squat' to me. No offence.
Burden of proof lies on people who make the claim that God exists to prove that he does. We don't need to prove that God doesn't exist like we don't need to prove that Mayan bush spirits, Zeus, Krishna and a floating invisible horse orbiting our atmosphere don't.

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If you want to believe that there are 'gods' acting like 3-year olds or making half immortal babies or jealous of humanity, it's up to you.
As it is up to you to believe that there was once a God who murdered children, committed genocide as well as acted completely irrationally before sending an incarnation of himself down to contradict the previous laws he set down to save people from sin he originally condemned them to, then go ahead. That is how I see it, and that is why I reject religion - contradictions, things that don't add up, and a lack of proof.

Faith is illogical - now I don't care whether you have it or not, but if somebody tries to push it on me, I will tell them everything that is wrong with them. Not saying you are, but just stating my view.
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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:11 AM   #2583
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As above. Taking personal accounts as evidence of anything essentially means you should be susceptible to believing anything - alien abductions, Zeus, trolls, and yes, Mayan bush gods.
Anecdotal evidence is my favourite argument.

Hey Confusion. I saw Zeus the other day, and he told me that Jesus does not exist. WHERE IS YOUR JESUS NOW?

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Burden of proof lies on people who make the claim that God exists to prove that he does. We don't need to prove that God doesn't exist like we don't need to prove that Mayan bush spirits, Zeus, Krishna and a floating invisible horse orbiting our atmosphere don't.
Let him prove the non-existence or disprove the existence of an invisible zombie that's in my room.
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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:21 AM   #2584
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B-b-but FARIS! Isis came to me and told me that Zeus is an untrustworthy manwhore! It was PERSONAL! I had my FAITH in her! Then Horus came and called Hera a bitch. It's on, man...it's on...



By the way, I know it's a late reply, but when I said that you can't dis-prove goblins to me.... I was attacking your argument of: "God is real because you can't dis-prove him to me." The fact remains that humans invented religion.... what if the Greeks were right? What if the Egyptians were right? (With their many gods?) What if the atheists are right? Then you just spent you whole life praying to the wrong gods... or you just spent your life believing in something that isn't there.... remember: you BELIEVE in God... you don't KNOW that there is a God.

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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:24 AM   #2585
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Originally Posted by Angel_Androgynous View Post
B-b-but FARIS! Isis came to me and told me that Zeus is an untrustworthy manwhore! It was PERSONAL! I had my FAITH in her! Then Horus came and called Hera a bitch. It's on, man...it's on...
I think Loki might have had a part in all that.

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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:24 AM   #2586
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Originally Posted by confusion View Post





If you want to believe that there are 'gods' acting like 3-year olds or making half immortal babies or jealous of humanity, it's up to you.





Oh, I forgot, the Holy Spirit impregnating a woman makes much more sense.
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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #2587
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Oh, I forgot, the Holy Spirit impregnating a woman makes much more sense.
Yahweh has emotions just like us humans! He just gets horny sometimes.

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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:32 AM   #2588
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The Virgin Mary.... might have sucked a dick or two in high school....
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Old September 11th, 2011, 11:40 AM   #2589
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I'm going to pose a question, though.

Why did God have those draconic laws that Jesus needed to abolish in the first place? That, above almost all, seems ridiculous. The only reason the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin persecuted him was because he was going AGAINST every single blasted law prescribed to them by God (through Moses). So, instead of going "Oh, this is bad" and retconning history, or simply using his almighty Will to change the laws and the stances of Pharisees/Sanhedrin, he had to send Jesus of Nazereth to die in such an agonizing way for our sins, even though that was proper protocol for blasphemers and impersonators of God.

And Jesus wasn't the only one who died on a cross. If you will remember the 2.000 crucified in Tyre by Alexander III of Macedon for simply resisting conquest, the (probably) millions crucified for standing up for their people by the Roman Empire. Hell, crucifixion was COMMON until Constantine abolished it in 337 AD. If we're all God's children, what makes Jesus special?

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Old September 11th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #2590
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I'm going to pose a question, though.

Why did God have those draconic laws that Jesus needed to abolish in the first place?
He just suddenly decided he'll be more considerate, because we all know it makes sense to go from sending bears to maul children to fucking a virgin in order to give birth to yourself and go through a shit load of pain just so you can forgive everyone else for it later on.

But really, the answers people will give you for that are along the lines of 'it's the Old Testament and we don't believe that was the same God' which again is flawed, or 'he was angry with all the sinning, corruption, animosity and our carelessness, so on, henceforth it was failure after failure after failure after failure that he decided he'll come down in human form to save people. That, by human sacrifice too.

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The Virgin Mary.... might have sucked a dick or two in high school....
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Old September 11th, 2011, 02:09 PM   #2591
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Let's keep this calm, okay?

Okay.



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Old September 11th, 2011, 02:51 PM   #2592
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[...] but for me PERSONAL accounts count as I consider myself to have a PERSONAL relationship with God.
This was a bit back, but I'm just curious. What does it even mean to have a personal relationship with God? We've gone through the whole "you can't prove/disprove his existence" gobbledygook, so how can you have a personal relationship with a being who you're only defending with a "prove he doesn't exist"?
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Old September 11th, 2011, 05:54 PM   #2593
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This was a bit back, but I'm just curious. What does it even mean to have a personal relationship with God? We've gone through the whole "you can't prove/disprove his existence" gobbledygook, so how can you have a personal relationship with a being who you're only defending with a "prove he doesn't exist"?
I have a personal relationship with the unicorn in my closet...
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Old September 12th, 2011, 02:22 AM   #2594
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You didn't insult me, you just looked kind of stupid. Obviously I wasn't being serious when I implied that you weren't modest (if you had a brain/any kind of sense of humour you'd recognise this but then again you are a theist so I probably should have expected that). I said you were a mental because that's how you come across to me on this thread with your boring, rambling tl;dr posts. Again, stop being such a fucking crybaby, man the fuck up and stop being so serious. Instead of moaning, why not try and come up with some kind of witty retort?


Anyway, /argument. Let's get back to business. I read a very good post on religion on a football (soccer to you...) forum I go on and I think that it could provide some good shit to debate on here. Click here to read it (it's a bit long but well worth reading.)


First of all it's football to me as well. Second of all, it's better to come up with rambling boring posts than to come up with idiotic, rude, judgemental shit which has no fuckin sense at all(like you do), IDIOT. You give atheists a bad name. But then again I'm wasting time with you.


And another thing. If you want to believe in Zeus etc, DO SO by all means. Greek/norse mythology was there to provide explanations for things that we can now explain by science. However, the Bible is not there to try to explain how lightning happens. There is that God created the world in 7 days. Did he? WHO CARES? The bible is NOT a geographical/historical/cultural book. It is a religious book, the religious message is important. Other elements aside from the religious message are trivial and can be ignored.

And another thing, I've noted that here on this site, agnostics and atheists group together. MA che MERDA e questa? Atheists and agnostics are not the same. Agnostics are supposed to be in between; their beliefs are neither like those who form part of religion (Christianity, Islam etc) nor those who practise atheism. And another thing, you think that only Christianity has denominations. In a way even 'agnosticism' has denominations if you want. There are 'agnostic theists' , 'agnostic atheists', just 'agnostics'. So tell me, which one of them is true?


And again, if there's no difference between Zeus, zombies and God, then agnostics, those who neither believe nor disbelieve there is a God, should also be agnostics to zombies and Zeus. Why don't you go and ask someone who neither believes nor disbelieves there is a God, why he is agnostic to God but not to unicorns? There's no need to ask me when you can ask one of your FELLOW agnostics.

And anyway, this to all of you: I didn't read half of all your posts. All you do is offend and spew shit. Do what you want. Your life.........you can do whatever you fuckin want. If you want to be atheist, agnostic, christian, suck dicks, GO AHEAD. Nothing changes for me. Whether you're atheists or anything else makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to me. I mean, do what you want man. Who cares? It was a mistake to come involved in a debate where I try to prove something to someone when I don't need to prove anything to anyone for my life and my beliefs. When, really and truly I don't give a fuck about what you think about my religion.

Last edited by Efflorescence; September 12th, 2011 at 02:35 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:34 AM   #2595
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@ Confusion

Now you're succeeding in making yourself look like an arse. Which, last time I checked, isn't a good think. Settle down, I know this stuff gets fiery, but there's no need to continue a flame war - it's only going to get worse as it continues.

But, referring to the general gist of your post, the bible is there to explain how things occurred aswell. The Creation, the Fall, the Flood... all explained. Language? Got that too. The Promised Land? Yup. All religion is an explaination no matter how you look at it.

And agnosticism is a way of thought, not a religion. If you're an agnostic theist, that's the thing - you aren't CONVICTED in your beliefs that there is a God. Agnosticism is simply the belief that we cannot know the metaphysical. Atheism is a disbelief in the metaphysical. There are no denominations, only tendencies towards one way or the other, and none of us claim to each other "Oh, hey, Agnostic Atheism is better because it's RIGHT" because none of our "denominations" are diametrically opposed, hell - they're basically all the same, with some semantics thrown in.

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Old September 12th, 2011, 10:31 AM   #2596
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And anyway, this to all of you: I didn't read half of all your posts.
That's probably why no one took you seriously.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 11:03 AM   #2597
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First of all it's football to me as well. Second of all, it's better to come up with rambling boring posts than to come up with idiotic, rude, judgemental shit which has no fuckin sense at all(like you do), IDIOT. You give atheists a bad name. But then again I'm wasting time with you.
How about you ignore incendiary posts and address ones with more debatable substance, then. You seem to have completely ignored my long response to your previous post.

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And another thing. If you want to believe in Zeus etc, DO SO by all means. Greek/norse mythology was there to provide explanations for things that we can now explain by science.
Irrelevant, the Greek gods still existed in the mythology. I wasn't talking about the 'explanations' as much as the deities involved. I mean, obviously the Bible also tries to explain things (creation of modern humans) that are now explained completely by science, but that is a 'matter of interpretation' now that we've grown up - god forbid that the greek mythology too is a matter of interpretation!

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However, the Bible is not there to try to explain how lightning happens.
It attempts to provide an explanation for the origin of man that is ever increasingly likely to be wrong.

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There is that God created the world in 7 days. Did he? WHO CARES? The bible is NOT a geographical/historical/cultural book.
Inconsistencies in the Bible lessen its credibility. If the Bible was the inspired word of God, it wouldn't have all these inconsistencies.

Who says it isn't a historical book? You? All it seems to be is desert scribblings followed by the testimonies of people about things Jesus did. If it attempts to explain history as truth as well as explain religion, then we have to take it as an attempt to describe history. What you don't seem to understand is that you can't just ignore inconsistencies in a book that dictates your morality and daily lifestyle because they seem to contradict with logical facts and focus on an 'interpretation' of it that only arose because its 'literal' side was proven wrong.

Seriously, get on with your life. It may seem harsh to say so, but clinging desperately to a book with as many inconsistencies and as much incorrectness as the Bible just isn't worth it.

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It is a religious book, the religious message is important. Other elements aside from the religious message are trivial and can be ignored.
Why?

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And another thing, I've noted that here on this site, agnostics and atheists group together. MA che MERDA e questa? Atheists and agnostics are not the same. Agnostics are supposed to be in between; their beliefs are neither like those who form part of religion (Christianity, Islam etc) nor those who practise atheism. And another thing, you think that only Christianity has denominations. In a way even 'agnosticism' has denominations if you want. There are 'agnostic theists' , 'agnostic atheists', just 'agnostics'. So tell me, which one of them is true?
Agnosticism isn't a religious belief (or lack thereof). It's more of a description, like Maxxie said. People confuse agnosticism with an 'in the middle, I ain't saying it doesn't exist but I'm not saying it does'. That, in essence, is actually atheism (or 'weak atheism'), which accounts for most atheists. The only belief that actually asserts that there is NO god is 'strong atheism' - I don't think you'll find many strong atheists here, although the user 'standardstate' on govteen is a pretty prominent strong atheist.

Agnosticism is actually the belief that you can never prove or disprove the existence of a metaphysical entity/god. Then you get agnostic theists, who say you cannot prove that he exists but they believe he does, and agnostic atheists, who say you cannot prove he exists but they don't believe he does (they're similar to weak atheists in that they use rational discourse and occham's razor).

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And again, if there's no difference between Zeus, zombies and God, then agnostics, those who neither believe nor disbelieve there is a God, should also be agnostics to zombies and Zeus. Why don't you go and ask someone who neither believes nor disbelieves there is a God, why he is agnostic to God but not to unicorns? There's no need to ask me when you can ask one of your FELLOW agnostics.
You're painting yourself as ignorant here. Zombies are a less credible theory than God because through our knowledge of how the human body functions we can logically assume that being a 'zombie' technically isn't possible (but I don't know much about that, so I'll leave it there). Again, I'll substitute 'agnostics' for 'atheists' here and say that people who believe in ghosts, unicorns, zombies, and Zeus rather than God are idiots in their own right, especially if they too are atheists. If you use rational discourse to justify disbelief in a deity then it too should be your reasoning for whether or not you believe in unicorns or ghosts.

Ghosts is a quite different debate - there was a thread here a while back in which Sage destroyed arguments for ghosts time and time again, I suggest you read it.

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And anyway, this to all of you: I didn't read half of all your posts. All you do is offend and spew shit. Do what you want. Your life.........you can do whatever you fuckin want. If you want to be atheist, agnostic, christian, suck dicks, GO AHEAD. Nothing changes for me. Whether you're atheists or anything else makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to me. I mean, do what you want man. Who cares? It was a mistake to come involved in a debate where I try to prove something to someone when I don't need to prove anything to anyone for my life and my beliefs. When, really and truly I don't give a fuck about what you think about my religion.
If you really take a debate this personally then I suggest you either don't debate or chill your fucking beans, bro. It's the internet, don't let yourself become so worked up. People may spew condescending shit but don't think that 1. they are entirely at fault and 2. you should take it personally.

Besides, if you didn't read my post or any other valid ones then I don't even know why I fucking bothered replying.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 01:38 PM   #2598
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I am a jedi
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Old September 12th, 2011, 02:36 PM   #2599
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I am a jedi
Repped for best post on this thread...

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Old September 12th, 2011, 02:38 PM   #2600
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Repped for best post on this thread...
Actually, there are few others before him wrote that.
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