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Old July 14th, 2019, 02:55 AM   #1
Thedukeoftrumpet
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Default Hate speech

First off, I am a gay Christian man. I don't care if that can be considered an oxymoron. In my life I hear stories of hate speech from the news, word of mouth, online, etc. I hear stories of both sides (LGBT and religion) saying and doing horrible things against each other (I don't have specific examples, I'm generalizing) but from what I've heard, anything the religous people say and do is labeled as hate speech and anything the gays say and do is heroic and brave. Frankly this is a very complex issue that I don't think I understand, and maybe I'm listening to the wrong stories. As someone whos fallen on both sides (as far as im concerned) I want to know more. Where's the line in what can be considered hate speech. Please help me understand a bit more.

I know there's more than one religion and more than one sexuel orientation involved, but its simpler and less confusing to stick to one each.
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Old July 14th, 2019, 10:23 AM   #2
ShineintheDark
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Default Re: Hate speech

I think when it comes down to how their speech is perceived we have to take into account WHAT is often said. Since Christians (as we use in this example) reject homosexuality due to specific verses in the Bible, they tend to quote them in their words: 'abomination', 'fornication', 'perversion etc. Those are strong words that tend to evoke a very strong reaction. In contrast, whilst LGBT people can definitely cross the line of criticism into harsh attack, they tend not to use those words but rather criticise actions. They're more likely to bring up Catholic sexual abuse claims, call people hypocrites and try and disprove the entire faith.

Hate speech is, in all, a very complex issue as it's very difficult to draw a line between it and free speech: what speech is protected under the 1st Amendment in the US and what isn't? If all speech is protected, are calls to join ISIS protected? Are incitements to violence protected? Is preaching treason protected? If we try and draw the line at the effects of that speech then it becomes even more complicated - if you try and arrest a preacher because their follower shot up a church they can just claim that it wasn't their intention; that the follower made that choice freely and independently of their words. It's an issue that probably needs an answer but no one really has one.
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Old July 15th, 2019, 03:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Hate speech

You are not listening to wrong stories, you are listening to wrong people.. In nature they are called - idiots...
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Old July 15th, 2019, 11:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Hate speech

"Hate speech" is not a clearly-defined concept. Which is why I find making laws against it problematic. Hate, outside of some extreme examples, is often a matter of perception. Expressing disagreement should not be hate. Expressing rejection should not be hate (homosexuality is a sin, God doesn't exist), going much further approaches the line (homosexuals are perverts, Christians are morons). It's a spectrum, really, so trying to create a clear line from one to the other isn't always going to be possible. Unless you're inciting violence or engaging in other illegal activity, I don't support censoring speech, even if it's "hateful". "Hateful" is often in the eye of the beholder.

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Old July 16th, 2019, 10:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: Hate speech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thedukeoftrumpet View Post
First off, I am a gay Christian man. I don't care if that can be considered an oxymoron. In my life I hear stories of hate speech from the news, word of mouth, online, etc. I hear stories of both sides (LGBT and religion) saying and doing horrible things against each other (I don't have specific examples, I'm generalizing) but from what I've heard, anything the religous people say and do is labeled as hate speech and anything the gays say and do is heroic and brave. Frankly this is a very complex issue that I don't think I understand, and maybe I'm listening to the wrong stories. As someone whos fallen on both sides (as far as im concerned) I want to know more. Where's the line in what can be considered hate speech. Please help me understand a bit more.

I know there's more than one religion and more than one sexuel orientation involved, but its simpler and less confusing to stick to one each.
You totally can be a Christian and gay

Hate speech is a tough one with free speech
I think where it can genuinely do harm/inspire hate crimes and is beyond an insult, itís hate speech and is dangerous

Be great to have a president who didnít use it so much or at all
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Old July 16th, 2019, 11:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hate speech

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Originally Posted by Thedukeoftrumpet View Post
... but its simpler and less confusing to stick to one each.

But life isn't simple. It's complicated and works complexly networked.





"Life is that prison you'll never leave alive."



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Old July 17th, 2019, 10:49 AM   #7
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Default Re: Hate speech

The whole hypocrisy of the rhetoric between Christians and LGBT+ is a large discussion. In my experience, and note that as a Christian I may be biased, but I consistently see LGBT+ rhetoric as more hateful than that from Christians. I see Christians typically decrying LGBT+ people for their lifestyle choice and actions. The whole "homosexuality is a sin, you shouldn't be engaging in same-sex relations" sort of rhetoric. I don't typically see Christians attacking the person when addressing LGBT+ people, simply instead saying that they disagree with their lifestyle, be it homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. In contrast I typically see LGBT+ people lash out at the person. Throwing accusations of hate, hypocrisy, and homophobia (a ridiculous term btw, far overused) seems their commonplace response to dealing with Christians. I rarely see a defense of LGBT+ towards Christianity that doesn't dissolve into accusing Christians of hating LGBT+ people.

"Hate Speech" in my opinion shouldn't be a legal issue. Speech that prompts immediate violence or is a direct threat to person or country, that can be addressed via legal routes. However I don't think hate speech is really a thing. To everyone hate speech is something different. Trying to place clear boundaries on what's hateful and what isn't is just going to cause all sorts of problems. I would simply judge the person and their intentions to see if they are "hateful" rather than simply seeing if they happen to say something not P.C.
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Old July 17th, 2019, 11:42 AM   #8
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Default Re: Hate speech

Maybe you don't see it, but it certainly does happen. I've come across Christians denouncing homosexuals and other LGBT people as perverts, degenerates, confused, sick, etc.

The problem arises from criticizing the thing vs. criticizing the person. What's the line between saying something about a person is disgusting and saying the person is? (I agree with you that saying "homosexuality is a sin" is not hatred. I'm just not sure about other stronger statements).

Religion is not usually characterized as a "lifestyle choice" (though certainly it could be argued to be so) so the critical rhetoric around it is not identical to that of LGBT people.

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Old July 17th, 2019, 02:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hate speech

@PlasmaHarm - Look at Florida where preachers praised the anti-gay masscre in Orlando in 2016. Also they held a "Make American Straight Again" last month whilst lgbt-folks had a pride event or such.

One of these preachers openly talks about that homosexuality should be treated as capital crime and it should be punished by death penalty. Therfore he literally demands the government must kill lgbt folks. It doesen't matter how someone interprets that. Of course he doesn't directly pray for vigilantism, but nevertheless it's nothing more than a hate speech, as it is quite obvious that he's trying to avoid that because he doesn't want to get in conflict with prevailing laws.


To me, hate speech is a serious thing.





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Old July 18th, 2019, 07:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hate speech

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...I see Christians typically decrying LGBT+ people for their lifestyle choice and actions. The whole "homosexuality is a sin, you shouldn't be engaging in same-sex relations" sort of rhetoric. I don't typically see Christians attacking the person when addressing LGBT+ people...
And good Christians should have been taught to "hate the sin but not the sinner". The problem with that message, i.e. "I don't hate you but what you're doing is a sin and you should stop" is that a gay person will see that as a request to repress a fundamental part of themselves. In that situation it may not technically be hating the person but to the person receiving the message it may as well be.

But I also agree with previous posters that free speech is something valuable and we must be very careful about eroding it. Historically, legislation has generally restricted action rather than thought or speaking and I believe that should be continue as far as possible. Even if we could legislate to stop Christians criticising a gay lifestyle we can't legislate people's private thoughts. And people may be critical of the Christian religion for other reasons that being gay. They might, for example be atheist or a member of a competing religion. And it is worth noting in passing that in a free country the law should not support the blasphemy rules of any religion. It should be an accepted part of living in a free country that people may be critical of your religion or your god and that not only will the law not intervene to prevent that, any vigilante punishment will be consider a crime itself and punished accordingly.
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Old July 23rd, 2019, 06:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: Hate speech

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And good Christians should have been taught to "hate the sin but not the sinner". The problem with that message, i.e. "I don't hate you but what you're doing is a sin and you should stop" is that a gay person will see that as a request to repress a fundamental part of themselves. In that situation it may not technically be hating the person but to the person receiving the message it may as well be.

But I also agree with previous posters that free speech is something valuable and we must be very careful about eroding it. Historically, legislation has generally restricted action rather than thought or speaking and I believe that should be continue as far as possible. Even if we could legislate to stop Christians criticising a gay lifestyle we can't legislate people's private thoughts. And people may be critical of the Christian religion for other reasons that being gay. They might, for example be atheist or a member of a competing religion. And it is worth noting in passing that in a free country the law should not support the blasphemy rules of any religion. It should be an accepted part of living in a free country that people may be critical of your religion or your god and that not only will the law not intervene to prevent that, any vigilante punishment will be consider a crime itself and punished accordingly.
That goes to a public misperception about various faiths though, when it comes to having oneís actions tied to identifying the self.

You arenít your urges, you arenít your job or career or your hobbies, and you also arenít safe if you choose inaction.

You are a spiritual entity sourced from whatever higher power created our existence (for many thatís God, a personal one or otherwise), and weíre all having a physical experience in both an individualized way but also interconnected way too.


Iíve always read scripture and got a sense that the reason that the Christian god and scripture (and this is true in the historical Jewish and Islamic faiths too; and western politics should be aware of this too, given inclusion is becoming politically correct and non-criticism seems to be the dangerous peer pressure thing against women or those non-binary).

To an extent itís a stereotype, but women and those who were deemed eunuchís tended to be closely tied to materialistic and sensual symbolic concepts, in which from a spiritual perspective men were not.

The tone vaguely implied to me, that those caught up too closely to physical things, would neglect spiritual development, and would upon death physically wouldnít have developed spiritual things to fall back on.

Women being largely uneducated and seen as chattel or at best preistesses for various fertility goddesses and rituals, and those who were gay just tied up in servitude of earthly powers and rulers, got lumped into the concept of ďa world that God did not originally intend; but heís working with what heís got and will get the end result he wants.Ē


And people forget that the biblical story of Sodom and Gammorah, implies more than just the sin of being gay, it was the fact that people were unempathetic, selfish, and corrupt in other ways too.


The reason why free speech in a religious context seems to offensive is because religion and politics have been mixed for centuries when they should never have been.

You must acknowledge laws have been passed to forcefully castrate and put to death people who were gay and lesbian or bi, the laws were not inspired by love but rather a hellish cruelty, and that got associated with Christianity in English speaking countries.

In lesser cases, more grey, you had parents disown homosexuals or bi, or trans, children or relatives....is that free speech protection or does society step in here and shut that practice down?

My take on it is that a nation needs infrastructure to help take in the rejected and help them be independent as I donít think even if the law forced them to stay with religious-zealot parents, that thatís any healthier for those individuals.

Also heterosexual behavior since itís also a sin outside of marriage should also result in the same reaction no? Scripture says yes, but the fact society doesnt tend to react this way tells me something unequal is afoot in how we pay attention to who and why certain groups get ridiculed; something NOT in scripture.

What is in scripture is love, and consent, and a promotion of deep intellectual thought and self reflection of THE SELF, beyond politics and beyond gender. And there is a heaven, but if you get there, thereís no marriage in heaven.

Free speech must be protected and the line should be drawn at when such speech calls others to violence.

And maybe restricting mean speech in a K-12 environment; but beyond senior year of high school, Iím sorry the workplace and college environments are going to have ridicule and humor and mean speech. Thatís part of what it means to be an adult and maintain a job.

The issue then becomes are you getting paid enough or feel trapped to that one job that you canít escape that environment. Because then thatís an issue of wage fairness, which is a labor political law issue not a free speech one.
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Old July 23rd, 2019, 11:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hate speech

Religion builds culture and moral and value settings around itself. Politics are everything about culture and morals so how it is even possible to not to mix those things I am asking?

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Old July 24th, 2019, 04:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: Hate speech

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Religion builds culture and moral and value settings around itself. Politics are everything about culture and morals so how it is even possible to not to mix those things I am asking?
The answer comes by acknowledging that culture can be built without religion.

So therefore how necessary must religion be, and for discussion sake, there is a difference to the terms I use for religion, faith, spirituality, with the last one being very broad.


Religion tends to be very rule based, it uses a binary model of good/bad, reward/punishment and tends to lack a deeper analysis that faith offers which is more emotional based in hope, and compassion balanced with the darker side of emotion, and might have specific ideas about a personal God, etc.


But politics is a bit different, it is closely tied to the day to day cause effect relationship every individual has in context towards others that is directly observable.

Issues like:

Trade, business, civil rights, human rights, and the tug and pull between all of these and the management of natural resources.


Like in the early 1900ís, unleaded gasoline Vs leaded gasoline, isnít something a faith or religion deals with, itís something scientific and social policy deals with.


Iíve found the further you find yourself to pursuing profit motives, the farther you get away from a faithís core values even if you started out morally inspired.


Recognizing the balance between oneís rights with respect to anotherís is a big hard question.
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Old August 2nd, 2019, 08:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: Hate speech

I am a model Christian. Don't be like me because I sin. That's all I have to say. I do not judge you. All of us have our little sins and I don't consider you fallen. Sins can be forgiven, always remember that.

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