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Old February 23rd, 2018, 09:27 PM   #1
NewLeafsFan
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Default Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

It is really upsetting to read some of the comments that people post against minorities on this website. I am thrilled about the support that gets offered to the LGBTQ2 community, other people are being discriminated against for a large variety of reasons. The most common being religious.

Everyone's religious believes are valid. It is so unfortunate to see people trying to spread their own person hatred towards certain religions. Particularly I am speaking for Muslims. As a practising Catholic, I feel the need to stick up for those that are being judged based on their beliefs. I have come across horrifying statements claiming that Muslims worship stones, have insider plans for world domination, are all terrorists, and even that they possibly fly to hell to have sex with the devil.

For those who don't have Islamic friends and have yet to do their own research and study on the Islamic faith, I have and I can assure you that it is a beautiful religion. Many Muslims that I am privileged to call my friends are not associated with ISIL or other terrorist group, they have no plans for world domination, and they certainly don't have sex with the devil. They are good people like the rest of us.

To my knowledge, the only thing that the moderators do with these comments is delete them. But by the time they get deleted, the damage is often already done. People have often already been offended. It is my hope that if someone is caught making these comments repeatedly, that they get banned. The forums needs to set a stronger example. There must be less tolerance for this and other types of bigotry.

To the people that have made these statements both inside and outside of the forums, you are not Christians or Humanitarians, but YOU ARE COWARDS.


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Old February 24th, 2018, 07:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

I'm fairly sure if you go to the rules or FAQ or whatever it's called there's a little section about "being an asshole" and it says something like
"Don't be an ass, because we will delete your comments and warn you. Keep being an ass and you will get suspended/banned"

Unfortunately, open forums mean free reign of posting, which means these comments crop up and are read before someone can delete them fast enough. Unless mods had to review comments before they are posted (which is kind of a hard and slow process and is impossible) there's really nothing you can do except keep faith in your opinions.

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Old February 24th, 2018, 07:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

The rules already adequately cover this. If people are being purposely mean, rude, or offensive, then their posts are removed. If they repeatedly do this, then they may face punishments up to and including permanent ban. Most of those who are posting these things you find offensive, they are mainly just expressing their personal opinions, they aren't posting those things just to get a rise out of people. And since VT is a public forum based around open conversation, you can't really make a rule dictating that people can't express certain opinions just because you find them offensive.
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Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan
Everyone's religious believes are valid.
That's a debate in and of itself.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 12:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

I understand what you mean and I try to find an adequate answer to give here.

As already said by @ImagineRepublicCity it would be difficult to filter everything i.e. having a mod reading every post before it is published. It would greatly hinder all forms of discussion. Therefore you have the "Report Button" for every forumer to note staff if you find a post that is against the rules.

There are of course forum rules against discrimination of all forms if you read through the FAQs.

Nevertheless putting them into practice isn't always satisfying for everyone for sure. You have to accept individual opinions and freedom of speech from all kinds of different people with all kinds of different backgrounds. Sometimes people also state things not because they are evil but simply because they are miseducated about issues.

So even if I totally understand where you coming from as I said as a starter already,I feel harsher rules won't be really necessary or even possible.
And even if we had stricter rules, the enforcing of every rule will consist of an individual subjective component and therefore never be completely neutral and just.

As an active member you can work on making this forum a safe and welcoming place for everyone by reporting things that go wrong, informing staff about people you feel are trying to discriminate and last but not least by helping to educate those who try to spread hate speech about how they are wrong. Common sense and airtight arguments are the keys to this here and not stooping down to their level.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 01:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalcourt View Post
I understand what you mean and I try to find an adequate answer to give here.

As already said by @ImagineRepublicCity it would be difficult to filter everything i.e. having a mod reading every post before it is published. It would greatly hinder all forms of discussion. Therefore you have the "Report Button" for every forumer to note staff if you find a post that is against the rules.

There are of course forum rules against discrimination of all forms if you read through the FAQs.

Nevertheless putting them into practice isn't always satisfying for everyone for sure. You have to accept individual opinions and freedom of speech from all kinds of different people with all kinds of different backgrounds. Sometimes people also state things not because they are evil but simply because they are miseducated about issues.

So even if I totally understand where you coming from as I said as a starter already,I feel harsher rules won't be really necessary or even possible.
And even if we had stricter rules, the enforcing of every rule will consist of an individual subjective component and therefore never be completely neutral and just.

As an active member you can work on making this forum a safe and welcoming place for everyone by reporting things that go wrong, informing staff about people you feel are trying to discriminate and last but not least by helping to educate those who try to spread hate speech about how they are wrong. Common sense and airtight arguments are the keys to this here and not stooping down to their level.
I don't believe that claiming that you are 'miseducated' is an acceptable reason for hate speech.

I would not expect mods to read every post before they are published. I realize that only so much can be done. But there are several members that I have reported and have seen their posts removed up to 5 or 10 times. I just don't understand why they are still able to be members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
The rules already adequately cover this. If people are being purposely mean, rude, or offensive, then their posts are removed. If they repeatedly do this, then they may face punishments up to and including permanent ban. Most of those who are posting these things you find offensive, they are mainly just expressing their personal opinions, they aren't posting those things just to get a rise out of people. And since VT is a public forum based around open conversation, you can't really make a rule dictating that people can't express certain opinions just because you find them offensive.

That's a debate in and of itself.
Maybe the issue isn't the rules but rather how they are being enforced and lack there of enforcement.

If you are debating something you should be able to back your opinion with a fact, example, or something. I'm not complaining because I disagree with certain opinions, but because the language, and offensive/incriminating statements are unacceptable. If it something that you would get suspended for if you said at school, you should face some form of discipline from the forums.


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Old February 25th, 2018, 03:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan View Post
I don't believe that claiming that you are 'miseducated' is an acceptable reason for hate speech.

I would not expect mods to read every post before they are published. I realize that only so much can be done. But there are several members that I have reported and have seen their posts removed up to 5 or 10 times. I just don't understand why they are still able to be members.



Maybe the issue isn't the rules but rather how they are being enforced and lack there of enforcement.

If you are debating something you should be able to back your opinion with a fact, example, or something. I'm not complaining because I disagree with certain opinions, but because the language, and offensive/incriminating statements are unacceptable. If it something that you would get suspended for if you said at school, you should face some form of discipline from the forums.
Iím gonna play devilís advocate here and say that respect is important however school environments of safe zones have produced a culture where individuals canít deal with the real world that mean and bad people do succeed in life, sometimes fabulously successful.

My best advice is to always respond to even hateful comments with:

Mmhm, and why do you think thatís is? Or justify that point of view.

All nasty stereotypical beliefs all stem from some origin of truth, and I think thatís worth examining the trace of hownhuman logic gets from point A to point Z.

If they continually go on a hate rant well then at that point report to a mod and appropriate action is taken. Itís also boring to respond to hateful comments, just treat haters like clowns if they arenít going to respond.

Getting a rise out of you is what trolls want, and in some cases like in the in real life election via twitter retweets, you canít even verify your talking to a real human, which means a rudimentary AI program triggered an emotional response. Who you gonna rage at; a piece of computer code?

People itís the internet it is important not put mental blocks in place when socializing anywhere in online.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 08:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

Several posts have been deleted. Keep this thread on topic and respectful.

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Old March 3rd, 2018, 09:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewLeafsFan View Post
I don't believe that claiming that you are 'miseducated' is an acceptable reason for hate speech.
But why? Because it triggers you?

Look, people make offensive and miseducated claims against my own beliefs all the time. Not to name names, but there are certain users here who, purposely or not, commonly make sweeping negative assumptions and accusations towards Christianity, of which I am a Christian. But do you see me going into a rage and demanding bans because someone says God is a heartless monster with rage issues? No, you don't. Instead I just ask them why they believe that, ask them to back up those beliefs, and then I attempt to show them why they are wrong. If they still believe that fallacy, well then that's their problem, not mine, and I continue on with life. I say all that just to express my confusion as to why you think posts you deem offensive or miseducated need to be removed immediately, even though I and almost everyone else here copes fine with them.

Quote:
I would not expect mods to read every post before they are published. I realize that only so much can be done. But there are several members that I have reported and have seen their posts removed up to 5 or 10 times. I just don't understand why they are still able to be members.
I will give you that the rules need stricter punishment. I have advocated for that myself, since like you I've noticed users who repeatedly break the rules keep doing it without much more than a finger-wag from the mods. If there was stricter punishment, up to and including bans, then I believe there would be less troll posters. So on that topic we agree, but that really isn't your main point here.

Quote:
If you are debating something you should be able to back your opinion with a fact, example, or something. I'm not complaining because I disagree with certain opinions, but because the language, and offensive/incriminating statements are unacceptable.
I fail to see why certain words or statements in a factual debate would somehow make it unacceptable. As long as the intent of the terms isn't to offend, then I see no reason to censor it. Those who are triggered at the mere use of certain words, then that is their own problem they need to deal with. We shouldn't be censoring VT members because of an overly-sensitive minority.
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Old March 4th, 2018, 02:06 AM   #9
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
But why? Because it triggers you?

Look, people make offensive and miseducated claims against my own beliefs all the time. Not to name names, but there are certain users here who, purposely or not, commonly make sweeping negative assumptions and accusations towards Christianity, of which I am a Christian. But do you see me going into a rage and demanding bans because someone says God is a heartless monster with rage issues? No, you don't. Instead I just ask them why they believe that, ask them to back up those beliefs, and then I attempt to show them why they are wrong. If they still believe that fallacy, well then that's their problem, not mine, and I continue on with life. I say all that just to express my confusion as to why you think posts you deem offensive or miseducated need to be removed immediately, even though I and almost everyone else here copes fine with them.

I will give you that the rules need stricter punishment. I have advocated for that myself, since like you I've noticed users who repeatedly break the rules keep doing it without much more than a finger-wag from the mods. If there was stricter punishment, up to and including bans, then I believe there would be less troll posters. So on that topic we agree, but that really isn't your main point here.

I fail to see why certain words or statements in a factual debate would somehow make it unacceptable. As long as the intent of the terms isn't to offend, then I see no reason to censor it. Those who are triggered at the mere use of certain words, then that is their own problem they need to deal with. We shouldn't be censoring VT members because of an overly-sensitive minority.
To be very honest, when I originally posted this I did so because I believed that rule changes was the answer to this problem. Now, after reviewing the rules very closely, I agree with you that the problem is more closely linked to the enforcement of those rules.

As for your example of God not being as loving as you believe, to me that may be up for debate. To me, that is very different than someone saying such as "Christians worship an evil deity that wants to create chaos by brutally murdering innocent people". There is a line that cannot be crossed. I don't believe that your example crossed that line.

I realize that it is not necessary to start quoting facts when somebody states their opinion. But when you are debating something and going back and forth numerous times with the same person, unless the only words being used are "yes" and "no" over and over again facts will be used and opinions will be mentioned. And that is good. When something can be backed up, the argument has significance. Discriminatory comments against Islam cannot be defended with facts because they are completely wrong.


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Old April 16th, 2018, 04:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Harsh Rules Agianst Discrimination

I'm still waiting to hear back about this. I think it should be considered some form of crisis. I really feel that it is so unjust. If someone was speaking this way of African, Asian, or Indigenous people, I don't think my complaint would have been necessary. That really saddens me.

"No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite." - Nelson Mandela


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