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Old November 4th, 2017, 04:48 PM   #21
Babs
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Default Re: Equal Pay

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Originally Posted by Arkansasguy View Post
So? What is "sexism"? And why is it bad?



A mother's place is in the home. It is the man's responsibility to provide for his wife, not vice versa.



Bad behavior should not be rewarded. In the case of a widow or desertion victim with children, yes, she should make more than a single person.
don't cut yourself on that edge dicky dog
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Old November 4th, 2017, 05:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: Equal Pay

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A mother's place is in the home. It is the man's responsibility to provide for his wife, not vice versa.
And that's pretty misandrist lmao, why should men go to work while their wives stay at home? Men can perfectly raise kids too, it's not something exclusive of women.


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Old November 4th, 2017, 05:50 PM   #23
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And that's pretty misandrist lmao
Just labeling an idea with some random epithet doesn't discredit it.

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why should men go to work while their wives stay at home? Men can perfectly raise kids too, it's not something exclusive of women.
Against this stands the universal experience of people everywhere. That women are better at nurturing young children is something that everyone knows, and the affective differences that make this so are noticeable even in children. It's just the way people are wired.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 06:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Equal Pay

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Against this stands the universal experience of people everywhere.
Which people? Where?

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That women are better at nurturing young children is something that everyone knows, and the affective differences that make this so are noticeable even in children. It's just the way people are wired.
What differences? I'm curious about what makes you think women are naturally better care-givers.


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Old November 4th, 2017, 07:19 PM   #25
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Which people? Where?
Do literally anywhere in the world, including daycares and elementary schools, and you will, and you will see that women are better suited to the care of young children.

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What differences? I'm curious about what makes you think women are naturally better care-givers.
It's really not that hard to grasp. Toy companies get it. You literally have to expend effort not to understand that woman are better disposed to taking care of children than men.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 07:27 PM   #26
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Against this stands the universal experience of people everywhere. That women are better at nurturing young children is something that everyone knows, and the affective differences that make this so are noticeable even in children. It's just the way people are wired.
Men and women do have hormonal and neurological differences that fuel different urges and inclinations, this is true. But we have evolved to have so much more than our animal instincts and it'd be a damn waste to restrict ourselves to dated traditions if that's not what the individual wants. We got big ol brains for a reason guy, thoughts > urges.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 07:35 PM   #27
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Men and women do have hormonal and neurological differences that fuel different urges and inclinations, this is true. But we have evolved to have so much more than our animal instincts and it'd be a damn waste to restrict ourselves to dated traditions if that's not what the individual wants. We got big ol brains for a reason guy, thoughts > urges.
What individuals want is largely a product of nature+society. We don't come with built-in individual wants and desires. And the vast majority of women throughout history have been perfectly content with motherhood. Even with the indoctrination of the modern era, rates of part-time employment evince this natural desire.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 07:42 PM   #28
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What individuals want is largely a product of nature+society. We don't come with built-in individual wants and desires. And the vast majority of women throughout history have been perfectly content with motherhood. Even with the indoctrination of the modern era, rates of part-time employment evince this natural desire.
was this copy and pasted from reddit.com/r/incels
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Old November 5th, 2017, 09:51 PM   #29
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Default Re: Equal Pay

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Originally Posted by Arkansasguy View Post
So? What is "sexism"? And why is it bad?
Thinking that Women & Men deserve different treatments simply because of their gender.

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Originally Posted by Arkansasguy View Post
A mother's place is in the home. It is the man's responsibility to provide for his wife, not vice versa.
You may think that's "old-fashioned", but really it's just sexist.

You're saying Women should never have to work, and that Men should have to provide all the money for their wives. That's discriminatory, that's sexist.

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Bad behavior should not be rewarded. In the case of a widow or desertion victim with children, yes, she should make more than a single person.
Or, how about we pay everyone equally, and quit it with the "gender role" bullshit.

Let people do whatever they wanna do, whether it be raising children, working a job, or some combination of that with a partner.
Your idea puts single moms & lesbian couples at a disadvantage, while greatly benefiting single men and gay couples. That's sexist.

Just pay everyone equally and everything works out fine.

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The vast majority of women throughout history have been perfectly content with motherhood.
No. Actually, when you pay men more, & say "Women's place is in the home". You create a dynamic where Women are completely dependent on their husbands financially.
They will choose not to leave them, because they can't support themselves financially otherwise.

This means husbands are free to abuse, rape, do whatever to their wives, and they can't really leave because they wouldn't be able to support themselves.
This is what happened with my Grandma, who stayed with my abusive Grandpa, cause she couldn't make enough money on her own.

Your idea creates a really shitty situation, and leads to soooo many problems, while being extremely sexist against Women

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Old November 6th, 2017, 10:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by maddogmj77 View Post
Thinking that Women & Men deserve different treatments simply because of their gender.
Okay. Now explain why "sexism", so defined, is a bad thing.

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Let people do whatever they wanna do, whether it be raising children, working a job, or some combination of that with a partner.
What people want to do is highly dependent on social conditioning. Moreover,
an economy which upholds equal pay as a principle will make it financially impossible for most mothers to stay at home.

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No.
Prove it.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 03:26 PM   #31
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Okay. Now explain why "sexism", so defined, is a bad thing.
Because people should be able to do what they want, not what you you tell them.
[I.E. Work a job, pursue a career, Stay at home with kids]

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What people want to do is highly dependent on social conditioning. Moreover,
an economy which upholds equal pay as a principle will make it financially impossible for most mothers to stay at home.
Except that people are still doing it if they really want to.
And Equal pay is already law.

You're trying to make a choice for an entire gender. You don't get to do that...

Some women wanna be able to pursue their career; Some men wanna be able to stay home with their kids.
It's up to them to make that decision, not you.

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Prove it.
I already gave you an anecdote of my own grandparents. But there's also the increasing divorce rate. Which is believed to be linked to Women being able to be financially independent now more so than ever.

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Old November 6th, 2017, 04:36 PM   #32
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Because people should be able to do what they want, not what you you tell them.
[I.E. Work a job, pursue a career, Stay at home with kids]
What possible relation is there between this assertion and the definition of sexism you gave, namely "thinking that Women & Men deserve different treatments simply because of their gender"? How much and what type of freedom of action people can have has only a tangential relation to whether or not people are treated differently on the basis of gender (e.g. there have been many totalitarian states that were explicitly gender egalitarian).

I understand that you are not actually thinking about the position that I hold, but are simply reacting emotionally to a viewpoint that offends you. Nevertheless, you should at least try to appear logical.

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Except that people are still doing it if they really want to.
What people want and how strongly they want it is highly dependent on social conditioning. In any case, having to go into massive debt, which is the only way most people today could afford to have only one provider, is an unreasonable imposition. I'm sure you wouldn't accept it if a freedom that you cared about were under discussion.

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But there's also the increasing divorce rate.
The increasing divorce rate shows the human suffering inflicted by the modern setup. Divorce today is much more common than abuse ever was.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 05:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: Equal Pay

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Originally Posted by Arkansasguy View Post
What possible relation is there between this assertion and the definition of sexism you gave, namely "thinking that Women & Men deserve different treatments simply because of their gender"? How much and what type of freedom of action people can have has only a tangential relation to whether or not people are treated differently on the basis of gender (e.g. there have been many totalitarian states that were explicitly gender egalitarian).
Because you think that Men & Women should be treated differently and forced into certain roles. You believe that Men should be paid more, and that Women should stay at home with kids.

That pretty much forces Men to work, because they'll make the most money.
It will also make most Women house-bound because they won't make as much money.

Gay couples & Single dads will be extremely well off.
Lesbian couples & Single moms won't be able to sustain themselves.

How is that fair?

What you are suggesting limits freedom, and forces people into roles based simply on their gender. People should make these choices for themselves; Not have them forced onto them.

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I understand that you are not actually thinking about the position that I hold, but are simply reacting emotionally to a viewpoint that offends you. Nevertheless, you should at least try to appear logical.
I am thinking about the position you hold, and what I'm saying is that it forces people into certain roles just because of their gender. That's not right. People should make these choices for themselves.

You're the one that believes Men & Women should hold certain "roles" in life, and that "Men should be paid more", because "A women's place is in the home."
Go ahead and tell me that's not emotional reasoning.

Men & Women should be able to do what 'they' want, with no respect to their gender.
They should be able to pursue their career if they want to.
They should be able to stay at home with their kids if they want to.

What if I told you that you had to stay at home forever because your spouse got paid more at their job because of their gender, and you needed to watch the kids?
And that you weren't able to leave them because you can't find a job that pays enough to support yourself?

I bet you wouldn't like that role forced on you, would you?

So stop forcing it onto others.

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The increasing divorce rate shows the human suffering inflicted by the modern setup. Divorce today is much more common than abuse ever was.
Actually, an increasing divorce rate means that people are able to leave bad marriages that aren't working. That's a good thing.
I would rather see an increase in divorce rates, than an increase in bad marriages which people can't leave. (Abuse or otherwise)

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Old November 7th, 2017, 04:29 PM   #34
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Because you think that Men & Women should be treated differently and forced into certain roles. You believe that Men should be paid more, and that Women should stay at home with kids.

That pretty much forces Men to work, because they'll make the most money.
It will also make most Women house-bound because they won't make as much money.
Any system will force people to live within certain limits, if they want to be financially well off anyway.

Quote:
Single moms won't be able to sustain themselves.
"Single moms" is an equivocal term. There is no reason to treat single mothers who are such as a result of their own bad behavior (fornication or deserting their spouse) the same as widows and desertion victims.

Quote:
Actually, an increasing divorce rate means that people are able to leave bad marriages that aren't working. That's a good thing.
I would rather see an increase in divorce rates, than an increase in bad marriages which people can't leave. (Abuse or otherwise)
The fact that someone doesn't feel happy isn't a justification for abandoning their spouse. Such behavior is extremely selfish, especially if there are children involved.

Abuse is a factor in only a small number of divorces.
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Old November 8th, 2017, 01:39 AM   #35
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Any system will force people to live within certain limits, if they want to be financially well off anyway.
Only your system will force people into hetero-normative patriarchal gender roles in order to survive.

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"Single moms" is an equivocal term. There is no reason to treat single mothers who are such as a result of their own bad behavior (fornication or deserting their spouse) the same as widows and desertion victims.
"Fornicating" & "Deserting" does not deserve the punishment of being unable to survive from your own wage. (Or any punishment for that matter)

How about Single Women who don't have a husband? How about Lesbian couples? Just fuck them, right?

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The fact that someone doesn't feel happy isn't a justification for abandoning their spouse. Such behavior is extremely selfish, especially if there are children involved.
If a marriage isn't working out, then it's best to end it, not prolong suffering.
It's absolutely disgusting to force people into a life-long commitment they can never end just because someone's feelings might be hurt.

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Old November 8th, 2017, 05:24 PM   #36
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Only your system will force people into hetero-normative patriarchal gender roles in order to survive.
And why is that worse than any other imposition?

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How about Single Women who don't have a husband?
Their cost of living will be less than that of a family.

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It's absolutely disgusting to force people into a life-long commitment
No one is talking about forcing anyone to get married.
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Old November 8th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #37
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And why is that worse than any other imposition?
Because Gay people exist.
Because Lesbian people exist.
Because Women who want to live on their own exist.

Because people deserve to make their own choices, and not be forced into your patriarchal gender roles.

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Their cost of living will be less than that of a family.
And Lesbian couples? Single moms?

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No one is talking about forcing anyone to get married.
You kinda are.
Single men will be paid more and be comfortable living on their own.
Single women will be paid less and not be able to live so easily.

You're making Women get married to men just so they'll have enough money to live comfortably.
That's fucked...


That completely fucks over Lesbian couples, single moms, and makes it much more difficult for Women to live on their own.


You don't seem too keen on giving up your idealized Hetero-normative Patriarchal Gender Roles. Best if we just end here.

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Old November 9th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #38
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Because Gay people exist.
Because Lesbian people exist.
Bums exist too. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them being required to work to earn a living.

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And Lesbian couples? Single moms?
I have already explained the equivocation involved in the use of the term "single mom", your continued use of it indicates your dishonesty.

As for lesbians and promiscuous women, bad behavior should not be rewarded, nor should anyone else be burdened with the cost of their mistakes.

Quote:
Single men will be paid more . . .
Single women will be paid less
If you want anyone to respect you, you should refrain from lying about what your debate opponent has said. If you wish to show that your position is cogent, you should address the position actually proposed, not one which you have imagined.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 02:58 AM   #39
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Default Re: Equal Pay

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Bums exist too. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them being required to work to earn a living.



I have already explained the equivocation involved in the use of the term "single mom", your continued use of it indicates your dishonesty.

As for lesbians and promiscuous women, bad behavior should not be rewarded, nor should anyone else be burdened with the cost of their mistakes.



If you want anyone to respect you, you should refrain from lying about what your debate opponent has said. If you wish to show that your position is cogent, you should address the position actually proposed, not one which you have imagined.
That doesn't really solve anything, at the end of the day they still exist.

Is it am underlying premise that with enough "suffering" those types of people would develop the will to "reform" or rather "conform" to society's standards is completely without virtue.

It's without merit and virtue because it doesn't work that way in the real world.

If you embrace this hypothetically, and historically we have, you see the abuses generations past endure and in some cases still do in other parts of the world.


You effectively add these subgroups into a segment of society that doesn't stimulate the economy, become homeless which drags the monetary quality of living down in a city or town, are more likely to be human trafficked or abused for unpaid or underpaid labor, and grow up stunted if their adult caretakers pass away (car crash, health condition etc...)

Look at what's going on with the sex scandals in Hollywood, a paid job even, and the it's still problems due to the existing power structures!
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Old November 10th, 2017, 10:36 AM   #40
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That doesn't really solve anything, at the end of the day they still exist.

Is it am underlying premise that with enough "suffering" those types of people would develop the will to "reform" or rather "conform" to society's standards is completely without virtue.

It's without merit and virtue because it doesn't work that way in the real world.
Lol. Rates of illegitimacy and homosexual behavior decades ago show that it does in fact work.
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