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Old October 30th, 2017, 09:49 AM   #1
Stronk Serb
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Default In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

Alright, so what would happen in case of a total collapse of civilization and all institutions related to it? It doesn't matter how, a disease that wiped most of the population, constant wars, natural disaster, nuclear devastation... It happened. What I want to ask you is:
What would the world be like?

In my opinion, people would still exist and there would be many types of people who would band together based on similar beliefs/origin. Futusistic versions of tribes. There would be nomadic or stationary tribes with differentiating types of government, from despotism to sort of tribal councils, just like in prehistory. Visionaries will try to expand and we would get first post-apocalyptic civilizations, except instead of mostly monarchies we would have a whole plethora of governing types due to rediscoveries of ancient knowledge, maybe even new types of government. It would look like the ancient world, just with guns. And afterwards, history would literally repeat itself. Mighty civilizations carving out wide swaths of land, taking the mission to "civilize" the savages across the border and we would have colonialism all over again, except it would be fought over the scraps of what our planet has to offer.

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Old October 30th, 2017, 10:22 AM   #2
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

What's with all the bleak threads lately?

I think if it was something unexpected like a deadly virus or a nuclear war, it would a lot like those post-apocalyptic movies there are small groups of people staying together, we could possibly see a lot of religious cult forming based on what happen. The human survival instinct would kicked in and it would become everyone for them self and other human would become as, if not more dangerous and deadly than the virus or radiation poisoning from the war.

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Old October 30th, 2017, 10:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

My simple nature would put me in the survival mode. Hoarding gold, food, ammunition, weapons etc. in my own nuclear shelter ... makes survival easier ... for a while.





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Old October 30th, 2017, 12:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

I am tackling this from the point of view that society has collapsed, but was not due to some massive die-off like you might see in a nuclear winter or death virus. To me, having the current population still existing would provide a more interesting scenario.

In the case of some complete collapse of civilization, we would likely be seeing a return to tribalism. After the initial chaos, people would come to their senses and would group together with other local individuals and build self-sustaining communities for themselves out of the scraps of the old ones. This could eventual evolve into a form of feudalism, where established communities would offer protection and stability to outsiders in exchange for some goods. This would allow the communities to grow, and perhaps in a few decades come in direct contact with other large communities. This would likely just be a repeat of history. Some communities will ally themselves with each other, some will become enemies, wars will be fought, treaties will be signed, nations will start to form, etc.

In more developed countries, especially in the urban and metropolitan regions, there will likely be a mass die-off within the first couple years. Thousands if not millions of people dependent on medicine will die-off due to the collapse of the modern medical system. Plaques will become commonplace in large cities like NYC and London. For many people, starvation will get them, as we will no longer be able to produce and transport the amount of food we were once able to. I wouldn't be surprised if the regions that once formed China, Japan, Europe, and USA would experience a 50% population decline within the 10 years after the collapse.

The governing system would also be unique. Like stated, unlike our historic counter-parts, we know of many, many different ways to govern. We could see some tribes using communism, some using direct democracy, some using republicanism, some using fascism, etc. Over time, as the tribes started to interact with others and form alliances, we could see many federalist, confederation, and federation forms of governance come to be. Regardless of how it happens, I am sure it would be unlike anything we have ever seen before, and likely ever again.

On a personal level, I would basically just hoard up on supplies and head to the mountains. There is plenty of untapped government owned land nearby that could easily support me. I am familiar enough with survival, farming, hunting, and home building to think I'll be able to survive and possibly even thrive.
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Old October 30th, 2017, 12:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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I wouldn't be surprised if the regions that once formed China, Japan, Europe, and USA would experience a 50% population decline within the 10 years after the collapse.
Well that also balances with the fact that those are also some of the most fertile regions on Earth and so will probably sustain the most life. Regions such as the Middle East, Central Africa, Iceland etc will very much struggle to sustain themselves as, without modern technology to make their environments more bearable to plant life, their soil won't allow much food to grow. In a way, large societies will indeed see a massive drop in population due to a lack of readily available food but they would also soon regain that population from a massive migration of people coming to more fertile lands for food and shelter.
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Old October 30th, 2017, 02:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

@ShineintheDark i think it would be other way around. most fertile areas are also most populated areas currently and current way of agriculture is fuel dependant and fertilizer dependand. Also there is no game meat around on those areas. Sparsely populated areas are more prone to keep surviving people alive cause there is more free land and game meat available.

Secondly I am interested about guns.
There are guns around true and ammo around as well but in case shit hits the fan ammo wont last long. Also there would not be people to keep ammo supply running. Current day ammo is fairly complicated. making of case involves lots of skill and equipment and energy and materials like copper and zinc. smokeless powder is anything but easy to make. bullets are probably easiest to make from tyre weights and used car batteries or what ever your source of lead is. primer is hardest one to make. just to be able to make primer anvil and cup is hell of a task for anyone let alone exotic priming compound. If you have all components of ammo you can make new ammo but supply of components is down in SHTF scenario.
Maybe you would be able to make blackpowder since its plausible task to do with medieval equipment but that would not work on semiauto guns/rifles. You would be using flintlock/matchlock rifles or muskets. Bows and crossbows would be the thing too.
Only handfull of modern firearms would run with blackpowder loads some revolvers and shotguns and rifles chambered for older calibers like 45-70

Sooner than you would realize all ammo and all higher technology would be just memory. No spareparts to keep machines running no fuels ,no lubricants, no metals, No medical supplies except alcohol and some herbs. NO people with knowledge and skills to keep those machines running even in case that they exist and spareparts are there.

NO canned food until they become obsolete or are spoiled since food canning needs machines and metal cans. medieval style of food preservation would be highly valued like drying and salting.
Because all infrastructure is gone or beyond repair there would be no means to transport food from areas where its produced to big cities.

Alcohol could be used as fuel for cars that still do exist in case people find way to make lubricants. If there is enough skilled people with knowledge and leader there would be possibility to keep somekind of limited production going on. some medical supplies some lubricants fuels and ammo and guns and spareparts for existing cars. maybe but until people reorganize for larger scale.....
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Old October 30th, 2017, 03:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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No medical supplies except alcohol and some herbs.
Well at least we'll all be having fun in our final hours.

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Sooner than you would realize all ammo and all higher technology would be just memory. No spareparts to keep machines running no fuels ,no lubricants, no metals, No medical supplies except alcohol and some herbs. NO people with knowledge and skills to keep those machines running even in case that they exist and spareparts are there.

NO canned food until they become obsolete or are spoiled since food canning needs machines and metal cans. medieval style of food preservation would be highly valued like drying and salting.
Because all infrastructure is gone or beyond repair there would be no means to transport food from areas where its produced to big cities.

Alcohol could be used as fuel for cars that still do exist in case people find way to make lubricants. If there is enough skilled people with knowledge and leader there would be possibility to keep somekind of limited production going on. some medical supplies some lubricants fuels and ammo and guns and spareparts for existing cars. maybe but until people reorganize for larger scale.....
Unless the apocalyptic event is a solar flare, if you could find a way to maintain the already existing hydroelectric plants and solar farms it would be possible to keep a more modern way of life.

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Old October 30th, 2017, 11:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

I live on a cattle ranch on the side of a mountain in Colorado. We have to be self-sufficient for most of the year because we can get snowed in for weeks. We might fall back to the way things were 120 years ago, but that's about it. We've got livestock and we can farm if necessary. We'll be OK.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 01:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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Well at least we'll all be having fun in our final hours.



Unless the apocalyptic event is a solar flare, if you could find a way to maintain the already existing hydroelectric plants and solar farms it would be possible to keep a more modern way of life.
Its its solar flare its similar to EMP. bang and all electronics that are not in Faraday cage are gone. This goes for hydro dams and solar farms as well.
There is possibility that some hydro dams are indeed protected from such event and there also is possibility that some more traditional fuel plants (oil gas coal) are protected too. I suggest you google Faraday cage (since you dont believe anything I say for your own political reasons).

Fertilizers are gonna be big problem since lack of electrical energy.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 09:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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Its its solar flare its similar to EMP. bang and all electronics that are not in Faraday cage are gone. This goes for hydro dams and solar farms as well.
That's why I said unless its a solar flare. Same thing for a EMP.

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There is possibility that some hydro dams are indeed protected from such event and there also is possibility that some more traditional fuel plants (oil gas coal) are protected too. I suggest you google Faraday cage (since you dont believe anything I say for your own political reasons).

Fertilizers are gonna be big problem since lack of electrical energy.
The problem with Oil and Coal is we need to dig it out of the ground and if our civilization collapses for whatever reason I doubt that would be a priority. It is the same concept you brought up with ammo we would only have what was already in circulation.

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Old October 31st, 2017, 12:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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What's with all the bleak threads lately?

I think if it was something unexpected like a deadly virus or a nuclear war, it would a lot like those post-apocalyptic movies there are small groups of people staying together, we could possibly see a lot of religious cult forming based on what happen. The human survival instinct would kicked in and it would become everyone for them self and other human would become as, if not more dangerous and deadly than the virus or radiation poisoning from the war.
Society is more fragile than you think. For example, take Libya circa 2011 and put it on global level. Mass protest of peoples unhappy with their government. But what would happen after what you specified? I mean that is just the beggining when people form hunter-scavenger packs.

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My simple nature would put me in the survival mode. Hoarding gold, food, ammunition, weapons etc. in my own nuclear shelter ... makes survival easier ... for a while.
I'd be totting to the gun store near me with my hatchet and commandeering one of the nuclear shelters downhill from where I live now. In the communist era, this neighbourhood was dotted with fully functional nuclear shelters. Not sure of their state now, but better there than at home.

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I am tackling this from the point of view that society has collapsed, but was not due to some massive die-off like you might see in a nuclear winter or death virus. To me, having the current population still existing would provide a more interesting scenario.

In the case of some complete collapse of civilization, we would likely be seeing a return to tribalism. After the initial chaos, people would come to their senses and would group together with other local individuals and build self-sustaining communities for themselves out of the scraps of the old ones. This could eventual evolve into a form of feudalism, where established communities would offer protection and stability to outsiders in exchange for some goods. This would allow the communities to grow, and perhaps in a few decades come in direct contact with other large communities. This would likely just be a repeat of history. Some communities will ally themselves with each other, some will become enemies, wars will be fought, treaties will be signed, nations will start to form, etc.

In more developed countries, especially in the urban and metropolitan regions, there will likely be a mass die-off within the first couple years. Thousands if not millions of people dependent on medicine will die-off due to the collapse of the modern medical system. Plaques will become commonplace in large cities like NYC and London. For many people, starvation will get them, as we will no longer be able to produce and transport the amount of food we were once able to. I wouldn't be surprised if the regions that once formed China, Japan, Europe, and USA would experience a 50% population decline within the 10 years after the collapse.

The governing system would also be unique. Like stated, unlike our historic counter-parts, we know of many, many different ways to govern. We could see some tribes using communism, some using direct democracy, some using republicanism, some using fascism, etc. Over time, as the tribes started to interact with others and form alliances, we could see many federalist, confederation, and federation forms of governance come to be. Regardless of how it happens, I am sure it would be unlike anything we have ever seen before, and likely ever again.

On a personal level, I would basically just hoard up on supplies and head to the mountains. There is plenty of untapped government owned land nearby that could easily support me. I am familiar enough with survival, farming, hunting, and home building to think I'll be able to survive and possibly even thrive.
Ironically, the least modern countries would starve the least, compared to modern whose infrastructure and inner workings based on trade had just collapsed. My idea is similar, except I never leave the neighbourhood, unless I have to.

I really like how the authors of the Fallout franchise imagined the world and societies, the trade city called the Hub, an apartheid-like Vault-City, the New California Republic, even Caesar's Legion. I am talking about those not too far-fetched to be fiction. In case of apocalypse, we might even see remnants of governments which were driven underground like the Enclave.

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Old October 31st, 2017, 01:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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That's why I said unless its a solar flare. Same thing for a EMP.



The problem with Oil and Coal is we need to dig it out of the ground and if our civilization collapses for whatever reason I doubt that would be a priority. It is the same concept you brought up with ammo we would only have what was already in circulation.
with brown coal or wood you need only axe or shovel. with anthracite you need more. Peat is also something that only tools you need are called shovels.
Basicly fossil fuels became popular at first place because those fuels are easy to collect and use.
Same goes with hydro power. easy to use. When it comes to todays windpower (that is not used to run mill) and todays solar power they need lots of exotic materials and lots of computers to keep them running since they are highly complicated and sophisticated things.

When it comes to ammo its plausible like I said earlier to make blackpowder ammo and use it as long as humanity gets back on track. This may take a while anyway. There was muzzle loader Era and then there was short period of mercury fulminate primers and blackpowder cartridges.
When it comes to cartridge there were and are cartridges that can be loaded with blackpowder. 45/70 and 45 long colt being few of those.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 03:09 PM   #13
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In the communist era, this neighbourhood was dotted with fully functional nuclear shelters. Not sure of their state now, but better there than at home.
My great-grandfather was a visionary. In the 1980s, he builded a private nuclear bunker right under his favorite project, a 5-generation house, in which the entire generations could survive ... all this under the impact of Chernobyl, I was told.

The scary thing is that in an inventory in 2016, we found out that half of all bunkered foods would have been edible ... after 30 years.

My dad declared that bunker as a private museum. A kind of time travel in the time of the first major nuclear disaster and the outgoing Cold War.

Some thing was kinda strange perhaps it imo doesn't fit into my idea of survival ... e.g.: Among other things we found many VHS tapes of movies, a lot more books and such entertainment stuff ... but the best thing was also a fully functional Amiga with many video games from that times ... all vacuum-packed.





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Old October 31st, 2017, 07:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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with brown coal or wood you need only axe or shovel. with anthracite you need more. Peat is also something that only tools you need are called shovels.
Basicly fossil fuels became popular at first place because those fuels are easy to collect and use.
Same goes with hydro power. easy to use. When it comes to todays windpower (that is not used to run mill) and todays solar power they need lots of exotic materials and lots of computers to keep them running since they are highly complicated and sophisticated things.
Well it depends where you are because no matter how you decide to generate electricity you would need the right facility and installation and you need them in good condition.

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Old November 1st, 2017, 01:17 AM   #15
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My great-grandfather was a visionary. In the 1980s, he builded a private nuclear bunker right under his favorite project, a 5-generation house, in which the entire generations could survive ... all this under the impact of Chernobyl, I was told.

The scary thing is that in an inventory in 2016, we found out that half of all bunkered foods would have been edible ... after 30 years.

My dad declared that bunker as a private museum. A kind of time travel in the time of the first major nuclear disaster and the outgoing Cold War.

Some thing was kinda strange perhaps it imo doesn't fit into my idea of survival ... e.g.: Among other things we found many VHS tapes of movies, a lot more books and such entertainment stuff ... but the best thing was also a fully functional Amiga with many video games from that times ... all vacuum-packed.
of course you will need entertainment to keep you out of each others throath. also having one functional computer in faraday cage is damn good idea. Since Amiga500 was "the everyday computer" of 80s why not. Also that computer is so simple that it will last forever compared to our computers.
Did you have lots of guns and ammo. I would love to get to know German gun nuts. I bet that out of 80-90 million germans (how in world there are so many where did they all come from) there must be gun nuts too.
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Old November 1st, 2017, 12:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

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Did you have lots of guns and ammo.
Nope. No guns.

My great-grandfather was a strict pacifist. He was it already when World War II came up. He was imprisoned several times for subversive views or such stufduring Nazi rule, but somehow he was always lucky not to spend long in prison. He was not even called up to the army.

I think under the impression of two experienced world wars and that cold war thingy, it's understandable that he built that shelter on the one hand, but completely renounced weapons.





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Old November 1st, 2017, 05:46 PM   #17
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Nope. No guns.

My great-grandfather was a strict pacifist. He was it already when World War II came up. He was imprisoned several times for subversive views or such stufduring Nazi rule, but somehow he was always lucky not to spend long in prison. He was not even called up to the army.

I think under the impression of two experienced world wars and that cold war thingy, it's understandable that he built that shelter on the one hand, but completely renounced weapons.
Being pacifst and being vegan is as far as i know two different things. guns for hunting or self defence are different than guns for military use. Since guns are tools
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Old November 1st, 2017, 06:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: In case of a total civilization collapse, what do?

I think it partly depends on what type of collapse are we talking about. Certain situations would call for different techniques. In general though, I would try to find a group of people who I could trust and work together with them to survive as best as possible. how exactly again depends on so many factors

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Old November 1st, 2017, 11:34 PM   #19
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Being pacifst and being vegan is as far as i know two different things. guns for hunting or self defence are different than guns for military use. Since guns are tools
My great-grandpa wasn't vegan. When he was still was running his farm, he slaughtered his livestock himself at home. I think he assumed atomic contamination after a SGAU, so it just made no sense for him to store hunting weapons and such.





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